MHI And Next Imam

[yolanba]

YAM

The Holy Quran says that We have vested the knowledge and authority of everything in the manifest Imam.

That being said, when you read Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah's (MSMS) last will and testimony and read the below line, doesn't that show some doubt as he appoints two Imams in the event that Karim predeceases him? As the manifest Imam, why would MSMS have to name two potential next Imams in his will? Should he not have known that Karim would not die before him?

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I appoint my grandson KARIM, the son of my son ALY SOLOMON KHAN, to succeed to the title of AGA KHAN and to be the IMAM and PIR of all my Shia Ismailian followers and should my said grandson, KARIM, predecease me, then I appoint his brother AMYN MOHAMMED, the second son of my son ALY SOLOMON KHAN, as my successor to the Imamat.
**************

[Admin]

In a material Will, it is normal not to behave in a way that will show his divine authority and infallibility. In the same way, we believe he knew the moment of his passing away but did not write it in his Will.

[kmaherali]

The Imam appears according to the context and audience. The audience of the Will is general which includes those who do not accept him as the Imam. Therefore he will not appear to them in an infallible manner. He only appears infallible to those who have accepted him and obey him.

The Will is a legal document and hence it has to be drafted according to the rules of the material circumstances taking all contingencies into consideration.

[yolanba]

Therefore he will not appear to them in an infallible manner. He only appears infallible to those who have accepted him and obey him..

Thank you Admin and Kmaherali for your responses. As a practising Ismaili Muslim, I have accepted the Imam and I know there are many that look at the Imam as being infallible and the Quranic verse I quoted above does speak about a manifest Imam.

However, I have never heard our current Imam, MHI, speak about himself being an infalliable Imam, it's always been something that has been inferred by the jamat.

Would either of you know of any speeches or comments that MHI has personally made regarding this subject?

Thank you

[kmaherali]

However, I have never heard our current Imam, MHI, speak about himself being an infalliable Imam, it's always been something that has been inferred by the jamat.

Would either of you know of any speeches or comments that MHI has personally made regarding this subject?

Thank you

The Imam has publicly claimed that to his followers, he is the Bearer of Noor. In his Farman he has said "His Noor has indicated....". The Noor is of course infallible otherwise we would not be required to obey him.

The Quranic verse that you allude to: "We have vested the knowledge and authority of everything in the manifest Imam", can also be interpreted as referring to Imam's infallibility.

[agakhani]

I, think yolanba get solid point, what he wants to know is; why Sultan Mohammad (s.a.) mentioned two potential next Imams names in his will? when SMS should have knew as a imam that Karim's (s.a.) Imamat will be long enough (already 55 years and still going) and there will be no need arise in future for Prince Amin Muhammad to become an imam.

About our Imam, we Ismailis have common believe that imam is infallible and he doesn't make mistakes and he knows every thing, he knows what had happened in past, what is happening right now and what would happen in future!! then why SMS our 48th imam in his will mentioned two potential names for Imam??? if that was not mistake then what was it?? and in my opinion this is what Yolanba actually wants to know. may be I am wrong but after reading his post couple of times this is what I find out.

Where can I find will of Sultan Mohammad Shah (s.a.)?

[shiraz.virani]

However, I have never heard our current Imam, MHI, speak about himself being an infalliable Imam, it's always been something that has been inferred by the jamat.

Different people have different opinion brother. If you ask me I would say he is the guide but that doesnt mean he never makes any mistake....Most of this so called jaado/chamatkar garbage is induced my our jamat who once were idol worshippers


http://www.ismaili.net/intervue/651212.html

Do you feel you've made any mistakes?

" Yes, of course I have."

Do you regret any?

"One is bound to regret mistakes. They have definitely caused damage and one can only hope to put them right. One makes mistakes unknowingly, because one has been ill-advised, because of hasty decisions, because of bad judgment - there are many reasons."

[tret]

However, I have never heard our current Imam, MHI, speak about himself being an infalliable Imam, it's always been something that has been inferred by the jamat.

Different people have different opinion brother. If you ask me I would say he is the guide but that doesnt mean he never makes any mistake....Most of this so called jaado/chamatkar garbage is induced my our jamat who once were idol worshippers


http://www.ismaili.net/intervue/651212.html

Do you feel you've made any mistakes?

" Yes, of course I have."

Do you regret any?

"One is bound to regret mistakes. They have definitely caused damage and one can only hope to put them right. One makes mistakes unknowingly, because one has been ill-advised, because of hasty decisions, because of bad judgment - there are many reasons."

what's your point, viru?

of course you'd realize according to your knowledge and faith(Iman), doesn't make it the truth what you know, necessarily. Nothing more.

[shiraz.virani]

what's your point, viru?

of course you'd realize according to your knowledge and faith(Iman), doesn't make it the truth what you know, necessarily. Nothing more.

The words in that interview are not my words....Thats what Imam said when asked whether he made any mistakes....

Do you feel you've made any mistakes?

" Yes, of course I have."

Do you regret any?

"One is bound to regret mistakes. They have definitely caused damage and one can only hope to put them right. One makes mistakes unknowingly, because one has been ill-advised, because of hasty decisions, because of bad judgment - there are many reasons."

So Imam saying he did commit mistakes doesnt make it the truth ?

[tret]

what's your point, viru?

of course you'd realize according to your knowledge and faith(Iman), doesn't make it the truth what you know, necessarily. Nothing more.

The words in that interview are not my words....Thats what Imam said when asked whether he made any mistakes....

Do you feel you've made any mistakes?

" Yes, of course I have."

Do you regret any?

"One is bound to regret mistakes. They have definitely caused damage and one can only hope to put them right. One makes mistakes unknowingly, because one has been ill-advised, because of hasty decisions, because of bad judgment - there are many reasons."

So Imam saying he did commit mistakes doesnt make it the truth ?

and what's your point?

Since you'r not an ismaili, you will never be able to realize that Imam appears as two different persons when in public where non-ismailies are the audiance (as the interviews), and it not wise of anyone to make an statement such that "i have never made any mistakes". And as Imam for ismailies where the audiences are only ismailies, where Imam doesn't need to make any such statements at all.

If you are a true ismaili, you'd realize that. But, since you are NOT, you won't understand it, is all.

[kmaherali]

Since you'r not an ismaili, you will never be able to realize that Imam appears as two different persons when in public where non-ismailies are the audiance (as the interviews), and it not wise of anyone to make an statement such that "i have never made any mistakes". And as Imam for ismailies where the audiences are only ismailies, where Imam doesn't need to make any such statements at all.

If you are a true ismaili, you'd realize that. But, since you are NOT, you won't understand it, is all.

The infallibility of the Imam is for those who have accepted him and are his murids. It is not for the general audience. For the general audience he is just an ordinary human being subject to errors and corrections.

[shiraz.virani]

and what's your point?

Since you'r not an ismaili, you will never be able to realize that Imam appears as two different persons when in public where non-ismailies are the audiance (as the interviews), and it not wise of anyone to make an statement such that "i have never made any mistakes". And as Imam for ismailies where the audiences are only ismailies, where Imam doesn't need to make any such statements at all.

If you are a true ismaili, you'd realize that. But, since you are NOT, you won't understand it, is all.

Instead of wasting your time...please try to answer the question asked by the one who had this doubt !

Secondly, Din and Duniya cannot be seperated so please dont come up with your BS ideas that Imam appears as two different persons and what not !!

The reason why he made such a statement is because he knows hez a guide and not GOD !!....Now I know you treat me as a non ismaili because I dont treat him like GOD which is understood because thats what you have been fed all these years.....you can most definately give your opinion on this issue and Ill do the same !

[tret]

Instead of wasting your time...please try to answer the question asked by the one who had this doubt !

Like you?

Secondly, Din and Duniya cannot be seperated so please dont come up with your BS ideas that Imam appears as two different persons and what not !!

Well, now that I (and everyone else in this forum) have a clear idea of who you are and where you are coming from, I don't blame you. For, you and I have completely different perception about our beloved Imam. Because to you, he's just another ordinary man, and that's ok like he is to all sunnies and christians. But, what bothers me (and other ismailie brothers/sisters here) that you put ismaili mask to your face and pretend to be one. At least have the guts -- like a real man, and not a coward -- and accept that you are not an ismailie. That will put an end to all disagreements and conversation.

The reason why he made such a statement is because he knows hez a guide and not GOD !!....
Now I know you treat me as a non ismaili because I dont treat him like GOD which is understood because thats what you have been fed all these years.....you can most definately give your opinion on this issue and Ill do the same !

Well, when and where did I say (or any other ismaili brothers/sister) said that Imam=GOD? Please provide evidence or else, it's you who's full of it, viru!

I am underlying it again, if you were too lame to follow. You are NOT an ismailie and have no clue about Imamia tariqa and hence you don't know the value, and importance of Imam and don't accept it as one. Is it clear to you now?

In order to enter a house, you will need to first find the "door" to it, and then use that "door" to enter the house. If you ignore the "door", you will never be able to enter the house, and will be circling around the house, till you die! which is exactly the case for you, viru!! and your mentor. I am pretty sure you know who I am talking about.

[tret]

Since you'r not an ismaili, you will never be able to realize that Imam appears as two different persons when in public where non-ismailies are the audiance (as the interviews), and it not wise of anyone to make an statement such that "i have never made any mistakes". And as Imam for ismailies where the audiences are only ismailies, where Imam doesn't need to make any such statements at all.

If you are a true ismaili, you'd realize that. But, since you are NOT, you won't understand it, is all.

The infallibility of the Imam is for those who have accepted him and are his murids. It is not for the general audience. For the general audience he is just an ordinary human being subject to errors and corrections.

Thank you kmaherali brother for putting it differently what I wanted to describe for viru.

[Admin]

The relation of love can only be understood by the lover and by the beloved. How can anyone else understand?

[MR-FORGET]

Mr. Virani,

I really love to read your answers in many posts, the first thing I always do to read your answers first whenever I come in this forum, you have lots of knowledge in Quran and many other subjects. But I have one request for you, I will highly appreciate if you kindly stop to use bad words towards our beloved Imam, if you don't believe him as an Imam then that fine, he don't come to your door and force you beleive him as an Imam but please don't use any bad language towards him, it really hurts me and many true lovers of our Imam like Mr. Tret.


Mr. Tret,

I think we should not criticize Mr. Virani in public, I know his many posts towards our beloved hazar Imam are not appropriate which put doubt on his iman and faith in Ismailism, and for that he has been criticized many times by many readers including my self in past but he has not been changed yet, so I think he will not change in future too, so rather than criticizing him openly we should pray for his imanji salamati. I think he is under strong influence of Sunnism but he will realize the facts soon.

[shiraz.virani]

Mr. Virani,

I really love to read your answers in many posts, the first thing I always do to read your answers first whenever I come in this forum, you have lots of knowledge in Quran and many other subjects. But I have one request for you, I will highly appreciate if you kindly stop to use bad words towards our beloved Imam, if you don't believe him as an Imam then that fine, he don't come to your door and force you beleive him as an Imam but please don't use any bad language towards him, it really hurts me and many true lovers of our Imam like Mr. Tret.

My brother I never abused or used any kind of bad language towards the imam...How can I use bad language towards my guide ??

Secondly I thank you once again for bringing new questions on this forum !!

Third, I know there are few people on this forum who are always into name tagging people or abusing them , calling them non ismailis, agents and what not !!....It doesnt bother me, infact it encourages me

Being a lover is onething....being an idol worshipper is another

[tret]

My brother I never abused or used any kind of bad language towards the imam...How can I use bad language towards my guide ??

Now, you really want to be quoted. Stay tuned, I will post your offensive comments.

Third, I know there are few people on this forum who are always into name tagging people or abusing them , calling them non ismailis, agents and what not !!....It doesnt bother me, infact it encourages me

Well, as a matter of fact, it shouldn't bother you at all, for you are one. You see, if someone calls me an ismailie, I will admit it proudly for I am one. Same is true with you, viru. If you are called a non-ismailie or influenced by sunnie, it doesn't bother you, which you stated clearly. So, my point is made, once again.

Being a lover is onething....being an idol worshipper is another

I asked you a question in my previous thread (actually many), either you don't have the answer to them, or you are too scared to answer.

So, please go ahead and describe what/who is "idol worshiper", first. And tell us who commented in such a way that appears to you as an idol worshiper?

[shiraz.virani]

Now, you really want to be quoted. Stay tuned, I will post your offensive comments.

Ok

Well, as a matter of fact, it shouldn't bother you at all, for you are one. You see, if someone calls me an ismailie, I will admit it proudly for I am one. Same is true with you, viru. If you are called a non-ismailie or influenced by sunnie, it doesn't bother you, which you stated clearly. So, my point is made, once again.

Yes you'll be proud when somebody calls you an ismaili, but what if somebody calls a KAFIR ?? How does that sound to you ??

To me... You calling me a non ismaili is as similar as calling me a KAFIR brother, I know it means nothing to you for I see you have this hatred towards me and all my posts which is very clear.....But you dont see me barking about it just like you do...and like you're so despo that you even wanted to vote me out ,lol

Just like you're an ismaili muslim....Im an ismaili muslim too [with totally different approach] ...what is so wrong with that ??

When it comes to Ismailism I always say that whatever views Im sharing here on this forum are my views and not that of other ismailis, why do you always tend to ignore that and slander people if they dont believe in what you believe ?

I asked you a question in my previous thread (actually many), either you don't have the answer to them, or you are too scared to answer.

You debate with the person who is worth debating my friend

So, please go ahead and describe what/who is "idol worshiper", first. And tell us who commented in such a way that appears to you as an idol worshiper?

Excuse me ???....Im the one who should be asking you this question for If you are one...face it !!....N if you arent then which of my post is sooo bothering to you and why ??

[Admin]

Most of this so called jaado/chamatkar garbage is induced my our jamat who once were idol worshippers

I think you are mixing up the communities. We were never Idol worshipers unlike the Arabs before the advent of Islam. Ismailis have always been worshippers of the Light which we call Noor. We, Ismailis, have always prayed to the Noor.

Unfortunatly there are still millions who worship stones, coulourful stones, black stones...

Ismailis are not amongst them.

[shiraz.virani]

I think you are mixing up the communities. We were never Idol worshipers unlike the Arabs before the advent of Islam. Ismailis have always been worshippers of the Light which we call Noor. We, Ismailis, have always prayed to the Noor.

Admin bhai, our ancestors were idol worshippers before the arrival of pir's in India....Just like the arabs before the avent of islam....Anyways could you please define noor for me in your own words ??

For me noor = Guidance

Unfortunatly there are still millions who worship stones, coulourful stones, black stones...

I dont think its unfortunate because atleast they're open in what they do and believe in !!!....Take Mata Salamat as an example, she travelled all the way from pakistan to mecca just to bow down and kiss the black stone...Why would she do that ??

Ismailis are not amongst them.

Alhamdulillah

[Admin]

When Mata Salamat went to Mecca in 1954 she was a non-Ismaili Muslim.

She was not an Ismaili before 1957.

Obviously.

[agakhani]

Take Mata Salamat as an example, she travelled all the way from pakistan to mecca just to bow down and kiss the black stone...Why would she do that ??

It is not hidden any more that she was Ishnashari and according my patents they show her participating in Moharum/Ashura In Hasanabad or Wadi but she was converted in Ismailism latter on.

We were never Idol worshipers unlike the Arabs before the advent of Islam.

Our ancestors were Hindu before Pir Satgur Noor, Pir Shams, Pir Sadardin, Pir Hasan Kabirdin, Pir Tajidn and Syed Imamshah converted them in to Islam and ismailism, so obviously before their conversion they must be Idol worshipers of Hindu gods and goddesses.

For me noor = Guidance

Nobody can definite meaning of the word "Noor", some say its mean light, some say it represent the power of Allah, some say it means bright, It can also mean enlightened, beautiful, attractive, noble, illumination, wise and radiant, some say different the other one say different. But in my opinion to translate the word "NOOR' in colloquial language and only in one word is totally impossible for us, because it is beyond our knowledge, if you translate it as "light" you are not justify Allah and his power because Allah's noor is way above the 'light', therefore many scholars hesitate to translate the word "noor" As I said there are too many meaning of a single word "noor but honestly I never heard the "noor's"meaning as "guidance" as you think Shiraz.

[shiraz.virani]

It is not hidden any more that she was Ishnashari and according my patents they show her participating in Moharum/Ashura In Hasanabad or Wadi but she was converted in Ismailism latter on.

Correct !!! But agakhani bhai, Isn't it obvious that during or after marriage to an ismaili imam one becomes ismaili naturally ??

Our ancestors were Hindu before Pir Satgur Noor, Pir Shams, Pir Sadardin, Pir Hasan Kabirdin, Pir Tajidn and Syed Imamshah converted them in to Islam and ismailism, so obviously before their conversion they must be Idol worshipers of Hindu gods and goddesses.

True !!

Nobody can definite meaning of the word "Noor", some say its mean light, some say it represent the power of Allah, some say it means bright, It can also mean enlightened, beautiful, attractive, noble, illumination, wise and radiant, some say different the other one say different. But in my opinion to translate the word "NOOR' in colloquial language and only in one word is totally impossible for us, because it is beyond our knowledge, if you translate it as "light" you are not justify Allah and his power because Allah's noor is way above the 'light', therefore many scholars hesitate to translate the word "noor" As I said there are too many meaning of a single word "noor but honestly I never heard the "noor's"meaning as "guidance" as you think Shiraz.

Yes but agakhani bhai noor is an arabic term and if you translate noor from arabic to english it is called "Light"....Noor can be naturally identified on a persons face and for that we need not have to use a magnifying glass ...It happens when your heart gets attracted to one person because of their piety, their guidance, their closeness to allah[swt]....You sometimes see it glow and sometimes you just feel it ....Like if you're imaani and a humble person who is affectionate and caring, I would see that noor on your face, I would feel that noor in your work, I would hear that noor when you speak kind words...Get it ??

You're absolutely right, Noor can be interpreted in anyway....and you're also right when you said the term "noor" cannot justify allah[swt] or his might as he is above all...But then if he is above all that we say then what is that noor that is their in every imam ??

Answer !!...It is the promise or niyamat of allah[swt] to the family of prophets[as] ....the same promise mentioned in holy quran that allah[swt] will make the seeds of H.Ibrahim[as], H.Imran[as] and so on as guides....so noor is nothing but the guidance through which a murid is guided and this guidance comes from the one that has inherited it from the holy prophets[as] i.e the imams[as]

But this so called noor is not equals to allah[swt] as you said and I agreed that he is above all.....And yes sometimes a guide can be misguided too !!!...For ex: H.Adam[as] who sinned and was forgiven

As I said noor for me is guidance , it doesnt mean that allah[swt] comes into some kind of spirit and reside in imam, But again , this is just my opinion !!

[Admin]

"Correct !!! But agakhani bhai, Isn't it obvious that during or after marriage to an ismaili imam one becomes ismaili naturally ?? "

Nothing is further than the Truth. It has never happened. Imam would not marry his own Spiritual daughter. Imam's wife can be Muslim or from other faith, not Ismaili.

[kmaherali]

Nothing is further than the Truth. It has never happened. Imam would not marry his own Spiritual daughter. Imam's wife can be Muslim or from other faith, not Ismaili.

Imam Khalilullah married the daughter of Pir Pir Mirza Mohammed Baqir. Also Hazarat Bibi Fatimah would have been a murid of the Imam.

After the death of Pir Mirza Mohammed Baqir, Imam Agha Hasaanali Shah appointed his own mother as the Pir. She was a very good speaker and a highly learned woman. The Holy Imam has conferred upon her the title of Mata Salaamat. She was addressed as Pir Bibi Sarkar or Sarkar Mata Salaamat.

I think we can can say that Imams have only married murids who were members of the Ahl al-Bayt, otherwise they have always married non-murids.

[agakhani]

It has never happened. Imam would not marry his own Spiritual daughter. Imam's wife can be Muslim or from other faith, not Ismaili.

That is absolutely right I also agree with you Imam can not and never married to his own spiritual Murid.

let me give you my pleas on my above saying.

Imam Khalilullah married the daughter of Pir Pir Mirza Mohammed Baqir.

It is possible that she might not follow the Ismailisam before her marriage to Imam Khalilullah! you can find many examples about this ; that one family family member of Imam or Prophet followed on Islam but the other one didn't. So we can't say 100% that she was murid of Imam when she married to Imam Khalilullah (s.a.) she might be not accepted Imam Khaliluallah as her imam!! who knows?

Also Hazarat Bibi Fatimah would have been a murid of the Imam.

I think, Hazarat Ali (s.a.) already married to Hazarat Bibi Fatimah before he officially declared as an Imam before that declaration she was just an ordinary Muslim and was practiced on Islam as per the hidayats of Nabi Mohd (s.a.), Most peoples believe that Ali was not declared as an Imam until the events of Gadhir-e-Khum and that event had taken place many years after her marriage to Hazarat Ali, therefore I think she was not Murid of Ali before her marriage.

[agakhani]

Isn't it obvious that during or after marriage to an ismaili imam one becomes ismaili naturally ??

Not necessarily Shiraz, lets take example of Mata Salamat even she married to Imam SMS , she was practicing Ishnaashri sect until 1957 and SMS knew that she was not an Ismaili and therefore he permitted her to participate in Moharam/Ashura now come back to your question if any one becomes Ismaili naturally after marriage to Imam then SMS had never ever permitted her to participate in Ashura because Isamilis doesn't mourning on the death of any Imam. we as a shia accept Imam Hussain as our imam and accept his and his other family member's sacrifices in battle of Karbala but some how we haven't accepted Mahoram in our ritual.

[shiraz.virani]

That is absolutely right I also agree with you Imam can not and never married to his own spiritual Murid.

I disagree because if you believe so then that means you go against the very teachings of ismailism....H.Bibi Fatima[khatoon e jannat] was the daughter of the prophet of islam.....She was the wife of the 1st shia imam i.e H.Imam Ali[as]....She was the 1st lady who laid the foundation of ghatpat [as per ismailism].....so if you say imams cannot marry an ismaili is utterly false !!!

Maherali bhai gave you a crystal clear answer for this !!

It is possible that she might not follow the Ismailisam before her marriage to Imam Khalilullah! you can find many examples about this ; that one family family member of Imam or Prophet followed on Islam but the other one didn't. So we can't say 100% that she was murid of Imam when she married to Imam Khalilullah (s.a.) she might be not accepted Imam Khaliluallah as her imam!! who knows?

Not true !!....At the age of 2, H. Imam Khalilullah Ali [as] was under the care of PIR Mirza muhammad baqir and later on married his uncles daughter, How could she not be an ismaili muslim then ??

I think, Hazarat Ali (s.a.) already married to Hazarat Bibi Fatimah before he officially declared as an Imam before that declaration she was just an ordinary Muslim and was practiced on Islam as per the hidayats of Nabi Mohd (s.a.), Most peoples believe that Ali was not declared as an Imam until the events of Gadhir-e-Khum and that event had taken place many years after her marriage to Hazarat Ali, therefore I think she was not Murid of Ali before her marriage.

H.Imam Sultan muhammad shah [as] married one of his cousins and it lasted for only few weeks....I dont think there's anything wrong in marrying ones murid....Its just few hardcore ismailis who think that way !!

[shiraz.virani]

Not necessarily Shiraz, lets take example of Mata Salamat even she married to Imam SMS , she was practicing Ishnaashri sect until 1957 and SMS knew that she was not an Ismaili and therefore he permitted her to participate in Moharam/Ashura now come back to your question if any one becomes Ismaili naturally after marriage to Imam then SMS had never ever permitted her to participate in Ashura because Isamilis doesn't mourning on the death of any Imam. we as a shia accept Imam Hussain as our imam and accept his and his other family member's sacrifices in battle of Karbala but some how we haven't accepted Mahoram in our ritual.

Brother I think the reason why the imam allowed his wife participate in ashura is because he himself used to take part in it !!

Our very own ismaili history claims that SMS used to hold the holy quran on his head and chant the name of imams [Imam hussain[as] in particular] during ashura.