Can I read Imamshahi sect's Ginans and granth?

[agakhani]

I am fortunate to have some Imamshahi sect's Ginans, granths and their D'ua (Imamshahi says ginan as a "DHOL") composed by Syyed Imam Shah, almost all the ginans and granths are looks like Ismaili ginans and granths, here are few example as follows:-

1, Satgur Brhama ni Aarti ne chamar Dholay kesar ne kanku na shah ne
સતગુર બ્રહ્મા ની આરતી ને ચમાર ઢોળાય
2, Satpanth vhori vira alga ma rahiye
સત્પંથ વહોરી વીરા અળગા મ રહીએ
3, Satgur Aavya kai aapne re Dwar
સતગુર આવ્યા કઈ આપને દ્વાર
4, Mohan Mawji Aavya Chhe navkhand kidha chhe jaan
મોહન માવજી આવ્યા છે, નવખંડ કીધી છે જાણ
5, Dunia sarji ne swami mare anna upayaji.
દુનિયા સર્જી ને સ્વામી મારે અન્ન ઉપાયા જી
6, Hore man bhamara tu lobhio
હો રે મન ભમરા તું લોભીઓ
7, Saheb Rajo Aave jango dhol vagadave
સાહેબ રાજો આવે જંગી ઢોલ વજડાવે ; and many more other ginans which are carbon copies of Ismaili ginans, except few differences in words it seems that changes took place from our side like 'SWAMI' we recite 'SHAH" 'HARI' we recite 'ALI'
Now my question is can I read these ginans and granths? these ginans are very informative to me and I never heard any thing against Syed Imamshah and his ginans whether to recite it or not, nor these ginans and granths are prohibited by any Ismaili imams. I still hearing many ginans of Imam shah still reciting in our jamat khanas, look above ginans.

In my opinion his ginans are really good and more informatives for those who have interest in ginanic literature including my self here are some example of granths ' DAS AVATAAR'('TEN INCARNATION'), 'JOGESHWAR' GINANS FOR BANDAGI',MAN CHINTAMANI',' NAKALANKI GITA' these granth are golden treasurer for those who wants to know how the this universe was created? how many sky and Netherlands are there? about 9 continents, 7 seas, and much more, but it is very hard to understand since there are many Sanskrit and Prakrit words in it.

According my research and thinking Imamshahi sect was started by Syyed Noor Mohammad Shah son of Syyed Imam Shah not by Imamshah him self after his death. so far I have not find any think against Ismaili tradition, Ismaili pirs or Ismaili Imams in his any ginans or granths.

I salute Syyed Imamshah for these golden treasure even though he was not our appointed pir by imam.

Any comments from the scholars and admin on this topic will be highly appreciate.

[prince_visram]

I am fortunate to have some Imamshahi sect's Ginans, granths and their D'ua (Imamshahi says ginan as a "DHOL") composed by Syyed Imam Shah, almost all the ginans and granths are looks like Ismaili ginans and granths, here are few example as follows:-

1, Satgur Brhama ni Aarti ne chamar Dholay kesar ne kanku na shah ne
2, Satpanth vhori vira alga ma rahiye
3, Satgur Aavya kai aapne re Dwar
4, Mohan Mawji Aavya Chhe navkhand kidha chhe jaan
5, Dunia sarji ne swami mare anna upayaji.
6, Hore man bhamara tu lobhio
7, Saheb Rajo Aave jango dhol vagadave

and many more other ginans which are carbon copies of Ismaili ginans, except few differences in words it seems that changes took place from our side like 'SWAMI' we recite 'SHAH" 'HARI' we recite 'ALI'
Now my question is can I read these ginans and granths? these ginans are very informative to me and I never heard any thing against Syed Imamshah and his ginans whether to recite it or not, nor these ginans and granths are prohibited by any Ismaili imams. I still hearing many ginans of Imam shah still reciting in our jamat khanas, look above ginans.

In my opinion his ginans are really good and more informatives for those who have interest in ginanic literature including my self here are some example of granths ' DAS AVATAAR'('TEN INCARNATION'), 'JOGESHWAR' GINANS FOR BANDAGI',MAN CHINTAMANI',' NAKALANKI GITA' these granth are golden treasurer for those who wants to know how the this universe was created? how many sky and Netherlands are there? about 9 continents, 7 seas, and much more, but it is very hard to understand since there are many Sanskrit and Prakrit words in it.

According my research and thinking Imamshahi sect was started by Syyed Noor Mohammad Shah son of Syyed Imam Shah not by Imamshah him self after his death. so far I have not find any think against Ismaili tradition, Ismaili pirs or Ismaili Imams in his any ginans or granths.

I salute Syyed Imamshah for these golden treasure even though he was not our appointed pir by imam.

Any comments from the scholars and admin on this topic will be highly appreciate.

Ya Ali Madad,

I have been trying to study the Pirana Imamshahi Sect for a while too. It is hard to find relevant information online, but I have tried to find as much as I could from online sites.

At this website (http://www.scribd.com/Series-10-Pirana- ... d/31434507) it is interesting to see that they classify themselves as Muslims. I find this very interesting. I don't however understand the Gujarati below as I am not in any way fluent in reading Gujarati. I am aware you are, so I will share other things I think will be relevant.

This book (http://issuu.com/patidar/docs/series_5_ ... d_gnyan_-d) seems to be extremely relevant and outlines their main doctrines. I wish I could understand Gujarati fluently, and until I do, I will have to rely on others The second page of this book is in english and outlines what the book is about. If someone who can read Gujarati please explain the roles of Dasond, Mukhi's Athority/Du'a, and what is Morning Prayer.

To see more of these astonishing documents, you can click on the username in this website who has uploaded this document. He has also uploaded many things from Ismaili.net and explained them from a "Pranian Satpanthi" view.

"Pirana Satpanthni Pol Ane Satyano Prakash" can be accessed here:

http://issuu.com/patidar/docs/series_7_ ... _pol_ane_s

and even beautiful painting caligrophy included in part 2:

http://issuu.com/patidar/docs/series_7_ ... _pol_ane_s

I am sure those who can read Gujarati will appreciate what I have shared thus far. As for the rest of us:

THIS IS EXTREMELY INTERESTING! :

So, as agakhani mentioned, there are variations of our ginans and are performed as bajhans and such in their rituals. I managed to find a few of examples! I found these EXTREMELY interesting! :

They perform Aarti on a variation of our Ginan - Pahela Karta Jug Mahe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sCfXvlaPVqI

A variation of our Ginan - Haradam Japo Pir Shahanu jaap:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5Asm0bTm9g

A variation of our Ginan - Tun Hi Gur Tun Hi Nar:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHPn2DjfIy4

And if you go to their channel on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/user/satpanth) you will find plenty of more Bhajans and other things reflecting our faith.

Here is their "Mandir" as they call it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnrNl1gKzmE

And here is an image of Imam Shah's burial site:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7575675/4715867267/

It is also interesting to learn that:

satpanth.com, contents.satpanth.com, imamshah.com, imamshah.org ALL redirect to pages on ismaili.net. I wonder if the Admins of this site created this redirection OR if someone from the sect created the redirections to our site..

About your question- whether it is okay to read their Ginans - I am sure it would be. In my opinion, every religion had a sense of Truth no matter how corrupted the beliefs of that sect/religion may be. Reading their materials for knowledge is always okay, considering we are 100% aware that they have strayed (not believing in the Imam of the Time) anyways.

Hope to hear more discussion on this topic,

Khuda Hafiz
Ya Ali Madad

[agakhani]

Prince,
Thanks for the sharing above websites about Imamshahi ginans and bhajans, however I was aware of all these website for a long time ( more than 2 years) I also made some correspondence with them as well, and if you look member section you will find me as a member, be honest with you I printed all ginans of them from these websites for my record.

Your work and efforts are great and I hope this will help other ginan lovers and they take vantage from these website.

HERE ARE SOME FACTS ABOUT IAMAMSHAHI SECT LOCATED AT PIRANA IN NORTH GUJARAT VERY CLOSE TO AHMEDABAD, I think these facts may be interesting for you as long as ginans are concern:-

1, MUKHI LADJI BHAI DEVRAJ WENT "PIRANA" AND BORROWED AND STUDIED SOME GINANS FROM IMAMSHAHI SECT SEPCIALLY SAYED IMAMSHAH AND HIS SON NOORMOAHHAMD SHAH AND TALLY WITH ISMAILI GINANS, SOME GINAS OF THESE WERE LATTER PUBLISHED AS A ISMAILI GINANS WITH SOME CHANGES.

2,RAI ABU ALI VISITED PIRANA AND STUDIED IMAMSHAHI GINANS AND THEIR DU'A AS PER HIS ONE WAEZ ,ACCORDING RAI SAHEB HE FOUND NOTHING WRONG IN THOSE GINANS .EXCEPT HIS SON'S ONE OR TWO GINAN NOT ALL IN WHICH HE CONSIDER HIMSELF AS A "NAR". Nar means Imam.

3, ADMIN OF THIS WEBSITE ALSO VISITED 'PIRANA' ASK ADMIN!! IT IS NOTHING WRONG TO VISIT BRO. I was in Ahmedabad and had plan to go there last year but due to short of time I couldn't.

[Admin]

Yes I visited Pirana in end of December 1988 and had a long talk with their elders [Mota kaka], I was in search of ismaili manuscript throughout Gujrat and I visited many places.

There is nothing wrong in their Ginans, they come mostly from our sources. The only problem is some changes of words in some of their Ginans so we have to be cautious not to misunderstand. Pirana is a treasure-chess for Ginanic research.

Admin

[prince_visram]

Prince,
Thanks for the sharing above websites about Imamshahi ginans and bhajans, however I was aware of all these website for a long time ( more than 2 years) I also made some correspondence with them as well, and if you look member section you will find me as a member, be honest with you I printed all ginans of them from these websites for my record.

Your work and efforts are great and I hope this will help other ginan lovers and they take vantage from these website.

HERE ARE SOME FACTS ABOUT IAMAMSHAHI SECT LOCATED AT PIRANA IN NORTH GUJARAT VERY CLOSE TO AHMEDABAD, I think these facts may be interesting for you as long as ginans are concern:-

1, MUKHI LADJI BHAI DEVRAJ WENT "PIRANA" AND BORROWED AND STUDIED SOME GINANS FROM IMAMSHAHI SECT SEPCIALLY SAYED IMAMSHAH AND HIS SON NOORMOAHHAMD SHAH AND TALLY WITH ISMAILI GINANS, SOME GINAS OF THESE WERE LATTER PUBLISHED AS A ISMAILI GINANS WITH SOME CHANGES.

2,RAI ABU ALI VISITED PIRANA AND STUDIED IMAMSHAHI GINANS AND THEIR DU'A AS PER HIS ONE WAEZ ,ACCORDING RAI SAHEB HE FOUND NOTHING WRONG IN THOSE GINANS .EXCEPT HIS SON'S ONE OR TWO GINAN NOT ALL IN WHICH HE CONSIDER HIMSELF AS A "NAR". Nar means Imam.

3, ADMIN OF THIS WEBSITE ALSO VISITED 'PIRANA' ASK ADMIN!! IT IS NOTHING WRONG TO VISIT BRO. I was in Ahmedabad and had plan to go there last year but due to short of time I couldn't.

As for (1), can you please tell me which Ginans? I thought it was the Pirana Satpanthis who had corrected our Ginans and made them their Aartis/Bhajans. If I am not mistaken, it was them who had improperly maintained our mystical literature, changing words to suit them/by mistake over time. Like you mentioned the "Nar" example - it was confused with Nur in Sayyed Nur Muhammad Shah's name so they just made Nur to Nar, which we obviously know is incorrect.

You mentioned in (2) that Alwaez Rai Abually Missionary had visited Pirana and studied their Ginans and Dua. Out of curiosity, do you know what their Du'a looks like? I am really curious on their Du'a if you had a copy. If not, could you mention the language it was written and what type of content is in it.

Thanks so much, I love learning anything about our faith and this seems to be a close relative I have never heard of until more recently.

Yes I visited Pirana in end of December 1988 and had a long talk with their elders [Mota kaka], I was in search of ismaili manuscript throughout Gujrat and I visited many places.

There is nothing wrong in their Ginans, they come mostly from our sources. The only problem is some changes of words in some of their Ginans so we have to be cautious not to misunderstand. Pirana is a treasure-chess for Ginanic research.

Admin

Very interesting! After learning more about them, I see how they are a treasure chess for our Ginanic research. Do you have a copy of their Du'a or what it contains? Is it like our Asal Dua?

Also, what other things do they do in prayer - like practices and rituals. I saw in the Bhajan (Well, their version of our Ginan) I posted earlier "Hardam Japo" that they performed zikr on tasbihs. What do they perform on these tasbihs? are they mantras from the hindu tradition or are they zikr from islamic tradition?

Do they classify themselves as Muslims? I read somewhere they did but they are still bounded with Taqiyya... But how would they support their claim of being Muslim? Like do they perform anything outside of Hindu rituals and the modified Ginans?

Thanks, I feel you and agakhani are like my primary resources in this situation until I am old enough to travel on my own Thanks!!

[Admin]

They unfortunately had a very low level of scholarship. The Mota Kaka told me they were related to the Fatimid Imams but not to the Alamut tradition [How does it work

Most of them are rapidly been sucked up by Hinduism unless really this is Taqqyia but in 1988 they still claimed to be Muslim.

The Mukhi of the Gupti Jamat in Bhavnagar at that time was an Imamshahi for the external world but he was Ismaili Gupti and only Ismailis knew he was one of them, the Imamshahis thought he was one of them.

This kind of personalities can play a major role in teaching the Imamshahis how to remain close to our faith.

[agakhani]

Prince,
After looking your interest in Imamshahi sect let me make it clear that this sect seems like existing now a days they have heavy pressure from other Hindu sects like Patidar,Patel. Lohana e.t.c. ( once some of these sects were with Imamshahi sect but recently they converted in Hinduism and started criticizes them as a half Muslim and half Hindu, due to this pressure, judgement against them and criticism some Imamshahi followers turned themselves in Hindus some are still stick with their old Imamshahi sect, but most scholars, other Hindu sects and I personally believe that Imamshahi sect will disappear soon.
The young generation are started to consider themselves as Hindus rather then Muslim due to criticism because this sect have both Hindu and Muslims rituals.

AS PER MY OWN RESEARCH FOLLOWING ARE SOME FACTS ABOUT IMAMSHAHI SECT:-

1, Imamshah was the son of pir Hasan Kabirdin.
2, In most ginans ( dhrol) Imamshah mentioned the name of Pir Hasan Kabirdin, Pir Sadardin and pir Shams.
3, As per their dhrol pir Sadardin will give salvation of 12 karor murids same per our Ismaili ginanic literature.
4, They also believe in 10 incarnations of Lord Vishnu and about Nakalanki avatar. Imamshah wrote in his many ginans that Hazarat Ali (s.a.) is the tenth incarnation of Lord Vishnu but after the death of Imamshah some disciples of his started to believe that Imamshah was the 10th incarnation of Lord Vishnu, but this is not true Imamshah neverever claimed himself as a 10th incarnation of Lord Vishnu if you read and study Imamshah's own ginans whatever they have and whatever we Ismaili have you will not find this.
5, They recite 'OM' same like Hindus but also they have 'KALAMA"
6, They still have some Hindu rituals and traditions, so it is still big question for some sects and many scholars whether to consider them as a Hindu or Muslim.
7, After the death of Syed Imamshah this sect had many changes has come specially in their prayer, words and own rituals so ADMIN is absolutely right

Admin's quote:-
"The only problem is some changes of words in some of their Ginans so we have to be cautious not to misunderstand. Pirana is a treasure-chess for Ginanic research."
8, Above of this they have 'NAKALANKI GITA" Which one consider golden treasure according Rai Abu ali.

Besides above here are few links :-
http://ismaili.net/histoire/history07/history734.html

About the crisis
http://ismaili.net/Source/crisis.html

About the Hindu judgement on Imamshahi sect.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saldwr/message/6[code][/code]

About their Du'a here is the link which you already provided above they call as 'PIRANA PUJAVIDHI VIDHI ANE GYAN', HOWERVER YOU WILL FIND THE WORD 'DOA' MANY TIMES IN THIS DU'A SO YOU CAN TELL THIS AS DOA, THIS DOA ARE NOT EXACTLY AS OUR OLD DU'A BUT IT IS SIMILAR OF THAT, SORRY IT IS IN GUJARATI AND DO NOT SURPRISE THEIR ALL LITERATURE ARE IN MOSTLY GUJARATI NOW A DAYS THEY STARTED TO TRANSLATE IN ENGLISH.
http://issuu.com/patidar/docs/series_5_ ... d_gnyan_-d

The ginan in which Syed Noor Mohammad Shah wrote himself as a 'NAR' (Imam) is "SATVENI NI VEL" .

[ShamsB]

Prince,
After looking your interest in Imamshahi sect let me make it clear that this sect seems like existing now a days they have heavy pressure from other Hindu sects like Patidar,Patel. Lohana e.t.c. ( once some of these sects were with Imamshahi sect but recently they converted in Hinduism and started criticizes them as a half Muslim and half Hindu, due to this pressure, judgement against them and criticism some Imamshahi followers turned themselves in Hindus some are still stick with their old Imamshahi sect, but most scholars, other Hindu sects and I personally believe that Imamshahi sect will disappear soon.
The young generation are started to consider themselves as Hindus rather then Muslim due to criticism because this sect have both Hindu and Muslims rituals.

AS PER MY OWN RESEARCH FOLLOWING ARE SOME FACTS ABOUT IMAMSHAHI SECT:-

1, Imamshah was the son of pir Hasan Kabirdin.
2, In most ginans ( dhrol) Imamshah mentioned the name of Pir Hasan Kabirdin, Pir Sadardin and pir Shams.
3, As per their dhrol pir Sadardin will give salvation of 12 karor murids same per our Ismaili ginanic literature.
4, They also believe in 10 incarnations of Lord Vishnu and about Nakalanki avatar. Imamshah wrote in his many ginans that Hazarat Ali (s.a.) is the tenth incarnation of Lord Vishnu but after the death of Imamshah some disciples of his started to believe that Imamshah was the 10th incarnation of Lord Vishnu, but this is not true Imamshah neverever claimed himself as a 10th incarnation of Lord Vishnu if you read and study Imamshah's own ginans whatever they have and whatever we Ismaili have you will not find this.
5, They recite 'OM' same like Hindus but also they have 'KALAMA"
6, They still have some Hindu rituals and traditions, so it is still big question for some sects and many scholars whether to consider them as a Hindu or Muslim.
7, After the death of Syed Imamshah this sect had many changes has come specially in their prayer, words and own rituals so ADMIN is absolutely right

Admin's quote:-
"The only problem is some changes of words in some of their Ginans so we have to be cautious not to misunderstand. Pirana is a treasure-chess for Ginanic research."
8, Above of this they have 'NAKALANKI GITA" Which one consider golden treasure according Rai Abu ali.

Besides above here are few links :-
http://ismaili.net/histoire/history07/history734.html

About the crisis
http://ismaili.net/Source/crisis.html

About the Hindu judgement on Imamshahi sect.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/saldwr/message/6[code][/code]

About their Du'a here is the link which you already provided above they call as 'PIRANA PUJAVIDHI VIDHI ANE GYAN', HOWERVER YOU WILL FIND THE WORD 'DOA' MANY TIMES IN THIS DU'A SO YOU CAN TELL THIS AS DOA, THIS DOA ARE NOT EXACTLY AS OUR OLD DU'A BUT IT IS SIMILAR OF THAT, SORRY IT IS IN GUJARATI AND DO NOT SURPRISE THEIR ALL LITERATURE ARE IN MOSTLY GUJARATI NOW A DAYS THEY STARTED TO TRANSLATE IN ENGLISH.
http://issuu.com/patidar/docs/series_5_ ... d_gnyan_-d

The ginan in which Syed Noor Mohammad Shah wrote himself as a 'NAR' (Imam) is "SATVENI NI VEL" .

Is it possible to get a copy of the Naklanki Gita and the Satveni ni Vel?

Shams

[agakhani]

Shams,
Welcome back, I haven't seen your posts in longtime.
If you live in USA ( I think you are )please e-mail me and I will give you the name, telephone # and address of one book shop which has 'SATVENI NI VEL"
About Nakalanki Gita (Note:- THIS GRANTH LISTED AS 'NISHKALANKI GITA' in their website) please visit following site and request for a copy if they can send it to you via e-mail or mail (I am not sure) when I requested for some publications from them they were willing to send me by mail, but I didn't order from there because I found all these ginans from websites.

1,following is their website address
www.satpanth.org

2 following site you can find many ginans of them which match with
Ismaili ginans except few different words it seems that they made
changes latter on:-
http://www.scribd.com/doc/29048968/Shastra-Final-New

Remember this, some dhrol or ginans are not written by Syed Imamshah but written by some 'Kakas' and followers which you can easily find, so please ignore them.

3, Following site has list of their all publications:-
http://www.satpanth.org/images/Satpanth ... s_List.pdf

My e-mail is below
[email protected] (agakhani under score 786 at yahoo.com)

[prince_visram]

Shams,
Welcome back, I haven't seen your posts in longtime.
If you live in USA ( I think you are )please e-mail me and I will give you the name, telephone # and address of one book shop which has 'SATVENI NI VEL"
About Nakalanki Gita (Note:- THIS GRANTH LISTED AS 'NISHKALANKI GITA' in their website) please visit following site and request for a copy if they can send it to you via e-mail or mail (I am not sure) when I requested for some publications from them they were willing to send me by mail, but I didn't order from there because I found all these ginans from websites.

1,following is their website address
www.satpanth.org

2 following site you can find many ginans of them which match with
Ismaili ginans except few different words it seems that they made
changes latter on:-
http://www.scribd.com/doc/29048968/Shastra-Final-New

Remember this, some dhrol or ginans are not written by Syed Imamshah but written by some 'Kakas' and followers which you can easily find, so please ignore them.

3, Following site has list of their all publications:-
http://www.satpanth.org/images/Satpanth ... s_List.pdf

My e-mail is below
[email protected] (agakhani under score 786 at yahoo.com)

I have a scanned copy of Satveni Nani and Moti <in Gujarati>. Anyone who wants it can contact me at princevisram (at) gmail (dot) com.

[agakhani]

Please send me both copies
[email protected]

[star_munir]

That is very interesting information. Links to videos of ginans as recited by them are also very interesting.

[Admin]

Does anyone have an idea of how many Imamshahis are in Gujrat? [All groups of Imamshahis included]