Recycling of souls.

[ismaili103]

You mean spirit and soul are same, as you wrote spirit has many meanings and soul is one of them.

Nope, You misunderstand that, I never told they both are same!! Khan Saab.

And Yes! spirit has many meanings like fairy, angels, ghost, life, breath,vigor, courage and soul.

As per ginanic other religious literature.
JEEV & AATMA are different entities.
Spirit is eternal jeev doesn't
Jeev has feeling like sadness, happiness, pain and feeling e.t.c.
Soul doesn't have any feeling.
Animals and vegetables have also soul.

Agakhani bhai one correction,

jeev and Souls is One. So as you wrote soul doesn't hqve qny feeling but jeev have.

Soul and jeev are same ,animals and plants have soul and they feel. We have seen in tv that if obe animal die there partner sit with them and make sad sound, its the example of feeling.

Our Pirs tell us in Ginans that these plants and animals feel their pain when they think about there pastl lives and always pray to Imam to get rebirth as human form.

[agakhani_1]

My mistake! Mistakes accepted.

[junglikhan4]

RUH may be used in singular in Quran, however there is a Farman of Imam Aga Ali Shah that talks of "Alam al Arwa" (which is from your post, Ruh in plurial?)

Reply,
Imam is always right.
We can find the phrase' AALAM E ARWAH' in hadith literature, in sufi literature, in Fatimid period literature and in many languages this terminology is used. In famous Quranic ayat which is called 'WAIDA E ALAST', when in Aalam e Arwah Allah took promise from all souls. A LASTU BI RABBIKUM? (AM I NOT YOUR RABB?). The souls replied. QAALU BALA. ( YES YOU ARE).
That was the promise given by souls to Allah. In our ginanic litrrature pir has reminded us again.
QOUL DEI NEY KALJUG MAHEN AAWIYO
JEEV JAANEY HU(N) TO CHHUTO JI.
For Aalam e Arwah, the Quran has used the words "NAFS E WAHIDAH"
(31:28), which Imam has used many times in farmans, and in Ismaili philosophy it is called universal soul.

[junglikhan4]

RUH may be used in singular in Quran, however there is a Farman of Imam Aga Ali Shah that talks of "Alam al Arwa" (which is from your post, Ruh in plurial?)

Reply,
Imam is always right.
We can find the phrase' AALAM E ARWAH' in hadith literature, in sufi literature, in Fatimid period literature and in many languages this terminology is used. In famous Quranic ayat which is called 'WAIDA E ALAST', when in Aalam e Arwah Allah took promise from all souls. A LASTU BI RABBIKUM? (AM I NOT YOUR RABB?). The souls replied. QAALU BALA. ( YES YOU ARE).
That was the promise given by souls to Allah. In our ginanic litrrature pir has reminded us again.
QOUL DEI NEY KALJUG MAHEN AAWIYO
JEEV JAANEY HU(N) TO CHHUTO JI.
For Aalam e Arwah, the Quran has used the words "NAFS E WAHIDAH"
(31:28), which Imam has used many times in farmans, and in Ismaili philosophy it is called universal soul.

Please correct the ayat # 31:28 for NAFS E WAHIDAH.

[junglikhan4]

My mistake! Mistakes accepted.

A question;

Does God has spirit or soul?

[agakhani_1]

Both,
Same like you have two IDS Old Mazhar and new Jungli Khan.
Suna hai Bandar kitna bhi buddha ho jaye magar gulant marna nahi bhulta

[kmaherali]

I agree with your opinion that noor and soul are same.
Km, please explain the real definition of noor. To equate noor with light is allegorical.

According to Ginans, there are two levels of Noor. The first is the formless essence the Mazhar of which is the Imam.

ejee nur neeraakaar jaannajo, te aaj paratak dev kahevaay
tenne aap ichh-chhaaye upaavyaa, bhaai chaud bhavan soy......3

Know the Light (nur) to be formless, which today is called the Manifest
Lord (Imaam). He created out of His own desire, brother, the form and
structure of the fourteen universes.

The second level it is the Divine Intellect through which Divine guidance is given. The Mazhar of the Divine Essence is the Pir.

satgur kahere nure meendar samaareeyaa
ane nure rachyo aasmaan
te nur maanhethee nur pragatteeyaa
tenu satgur chhe naam re.........................10

The True Guide says: The world originated from the light, and the heavens were created from the light. From the (primordial) light, light manifested. It's name is the True Guide(Pir).

The above verse indicates that the Nur (Divine Intellect) originated from the Nur (Formless Essence) and the Pir is the Mazhar.

Hence light is the symbol of the Divine Essence and Divine Intellect.

[kmaherali]

Kbhai and Khan Saab,
What you consider Ismaili current Imam? a holder of Noor or holder of soul?
Why we are not telling him as a holder of soul? If soul and noor are same in your both"s opinion! then we should tell Ismaili imam as A holder of soul not holder of noor!
Bravo! I have also soul and soul is Noor also as per your thinking so that I am also imam or kbhai or our old freind , just recemtly changed name can be consider him self as an imam because we all have NOOR! Enjoy every one because we all are imam!
Kbhai be honest with you some time your comments puts me in laughing situation.

Imam is the Mazhar of the Essence which is the Soul of the Universe as per the Memoirs of MSMS:

"Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God."

Hence God has a soul which is the Universal Soul and the Imam is the Mazhar of the Universal Soul.

The Imam being the Pir as well is the Mazhar of the Divine Intellect (Noor).

We as individuals have souls and also partial intellect or partial light (nur), whereas the Imam is the Mazhar of complete soul and Nur.

There are degrees of soul and there are degrees of Nur. Our soul and our nur (intellect) is partial whereas the Imam's soul is universal and his Nur is complete.

[ismaili103]

The Imam being the Pir as well is the Mazhar of the Divine Intellect (Noor).

What is difference between Universal Intellect and Divine Intellect or both are same ?

[junglikhan4]

Both,
Same like you have two IDS Old Mazhar and new Jungli Khan.
Suna hai Bandar kitna bhi buddha ho jaye magar gulant marna nahi bhulta

Reply,
You mean God has two ID's!

[junglikhan4]

I agree with your opinion that noor and soul are same.
Km, please explain the real definition of noor. To equate noor with light is allegorical.

According to Ginans, there are two levels of Noor. The first is the formless essence the Mazhar of which is the Imam.

ejee nur neeraakaar jaannajo, te aaj paratak dev kahevaay
tenne aap ichh-chhaaye upaavyaa, bhaai chaud bhavan soy......3

Know the Light (nur) to be formless, which today is called the Manifest
Lord (Imaam). He created out of His own desire, brother, the form and
structure of the fourteen universes.

The second level it is the Divine Intellect through which Divine guidance is given. The Mazhar of the Divine Essence is the Pir.

satgur kahere nure meendar samaareeyaa
ane nure rachyo aasmaan
te nur maanhethee nur pragatteeyaa
tenu satgur chhe naam re.........................10

The True Guide says: The world originated from the light, and the heavens were created from the light. From the (primordial) light, light manifested. It's name is the True Guide(Pir).

The above verse indicates that the Nur (Divine Intellect) originated from the Nur (Formless Essence) and the Pir is the Mazhar.

Hence light is the symbol of the Divine Essence and Divine Intellect.

Reply,

I agree there are levels of noor and soul, but I do not agree with your 2 levels of noor theory.
Let me give you an example. For understanding let us consider God as a generator of noor from the primordial time. Say like a million KW of electricity( an example). If that high intensity electric current passes through 60w or 100w bulbs these will burn. Therefore we install a transformer in between generator and light bulb so that it should not fuse.
So from divine intellect the noor flows to universal soul and universal soul extended the lines to individual souls in various stages of soul. Like in mineral soul, vegetative soul, animal soul and human soul in various categories.

[kmaherali]

What is difference between Universal Intellect and Divine Intellect or both are same ?

In my opinion both are the same.

[kmaherali]

So from divine intellect the noor flows to universal soul and universal soul extended the lines to individual souls in various stages of soul. Like in mineral soul, vegetative soul, animal soul and human soul in various categories.

There is a direct connection between the Divine Intellect and human intellect as per the statement of the Imam:

"The Divine Intellect, Aql-i Kull, both transcends and informs the human intellect. It is this Intellect which enables man to strive towards two aims dictated by the faith: that he should reflect upon the environment Allah has given him and that he should know himself. It is the Light of the Intellect which distinguishes the complete human being from the human animal, and developing that intellect requires free inquiry. The man of faith, who fails to pursue intellectual search is likely to have only a limited comprehension of Allah’s creation. Indeed, it is man’s intellect that enables him to expand his vision of that creation."

Aga Khan IV, AKU Convocation Speech,
Karachi, Pakistan, November 11, 1985

[junglikhan4]

So from divine intellect the noor flows to universal soul and universal soul extended the lines to individual souls in various stages of soul. Like in mineral soul, vegetative soul, animal soul and human soul in various categories.

There is a direct connection between the Divine Intellect and human intellect as per the statement of the Imam:

"The Divine Intellect, Aql-i Kull, both transcends and informs the human intellect. It is this Intellect which enables man to strive towards two aims dictated by the faith: that he should reflect upon the environment Allah has given him and that he should know himself. It is the Light of the Intellect which distinguishes the complete human being from the human animal, and developing that intellect requires free inquiry. The man of faith, who fails to pursue intellectual search is likely to have only a limited comprehension of Allah’s creation. Indeed, it is man’s intellect that enables him to expand his vision of that creation."

Aga Khan IV, AKU Convocation Speech,
Karachi, Pakistan, November 11, 1985

Reply,

This statement of Imam shows that there is no need of intercessor or wasillah as divine intellect transcends and informs the human intellect directly.

[agakhani_1]

You mean God has two ID's!

Allah's NOOR has two ID's

1, Imamat

2, Piratan

That is what I explained in past and now Kbhai is trying to explain you!.

[junglikhan4]

There are unlimited laws of nature, amongst them one crucial law is law of recycling of matter in universe. Does this law applies for recycling of souls?

In my imagination,
God keeps creating animal souls and human beings keep killing, eating, and consuming animals, birds, and fishes. ( chickens, goats, sheep, cows,
snakes, dogs, all kinds of fishes etc).This vicious cycle is continued forever
So God set animal souls in motion, rotation, and recycling because God knows human beings won't stop eating chickens, & animals. Just imagine
7+ billion human beings consuming more than 100 to 200 million ( lowest estimate) birds and animals on daily basis. Think about round the year.
By recycling of animal souls angels are getting break on continuous working on soul machines for creating new souls, saving time energy and utility bills. Other point, for cloning of a million chickens, million souls are needed or just one blow of breath is enough. ( this is my imagination, I know the word KUN.)

[junglikhan4]

You mean God has two ID's!

Allah's NOOR has two ID's

1, Imamat

2, Piratan

That is what I explained in past and now Kbhai is trying to explain you!.

Reply,

An anecdote,
Out side a temple, a homeless blind beggar was asking money for food. Many persons passed by but no one gave him charity. A good fellow hold his hand and said come with me. That person left the beggar out side a pub( tavern) and said ask for money here. Finally a drunk person came out of pub and gave him Rs.100. The beggar looked upward and said,
RAHTA EEK JAGHA PER HAI, ADDRESS DUSIRI JAGHA KA HAI.
May be in temple one ID and in pub other!

[junglikhan4]

Why God created and creates retarded and handicapped children, for these children are burden on parents and society and are not productive. Why He does this to poor souls, when He is called Rahman and Rahim. Can we call it failure of quality system or can we say defective souls are created?

[agakhani_1]

The handicapped childrens are facing punishments for their previous lives.
This topic has been discussed earlier.
Allah is no doubt RAHMAN AND RAHIM.

[agakhani_1]

I mean, the bad deeds/sins they had committed in their previous lives .

[kmaherali]

Reply,

This statement of Imam shows that there is no need of intercessor or wasillah as divine intellect transcends and informs the human intellect directly.

Intellects of ordinary mortals are corrupted by the nafs-e-amaraa (the lower self) and hence are not in tune with Divine intuition. Therefore there is a need of a Pure and Perfect Guide to serve as a guide or wasillah. MSMS says in his Memoirs:

"The Prophet died without appointing a Caliph or successor. The Shia school of thought maintains that while direct Divine inspiration ceased at the Prophet's death, the need of Divine guidance continued and this could not be left merely to millions of mortal men, subject to the whims and gusts of passion and material necessity, capable of being momentarily but tragically misled by greed, by oratory. or by the sudden desire for material advantage. These dangers were manifestin the period immimmediately following our Holy Prophet's death......
The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance, and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali."

[seif]

The Hindu and Buddhistic explanations of life after death, with always the influence of the soul taking forms either much lower, such as the lowest animals, or much higher, like some of the so called Gods of both Brahmanism and Buddhism, seem to many brought up outside their immemorial tradition as more a hope and pious wish than anything founded on fact. -- MSMS

[agakhani_1]

As per my understanding souls are getting human lives after taking so many lower births before, as per ginans 1,84, 000 births. and then after they receives birth in human being, which is the highest births!.

Eji Lakh chorasi phera fariyo tyare, MANKHA JANAM DHARIO

So, in my opinion after the death souls doesn't take births in animal and snakes as many Hindus believes. but as described above they take birth as human as per their past lives good or bad deeds. Hindu and Buddhist also believes in "Karma"

Jaisa Karam karenga waisa fal dega bhagwan, this knowledge is taken from Gita.

[zznoor]

Intellects of ordinary mortals are corrupted by the nafs-e-amaraa (the lower self) and hence are not in tune with Divine intuition. Therefore there is a need of a Pure and Perfect Guide to serve as a guide or wasillah. MSMS says in his Memoirs:


For Majority of Muslim that perfect guide is Quran and Authentic Sunna of the Prophet SAW.

"The Prophet died without appointing a Caliph or successor.

Astonishing admission! Is it not?
And still some of umma is trying to prove succession by smoke and mirror method. The Prophet had ample opportunity to say that "Ali and his progeny will lead and guide umma till quayamat!". Also Allah had opportunity to state something like "O Muhammad you have to appoint leader who will guide umma after you" which would have been recorded in Quran

The Shia school of thought maintains that while direct Divine inspiration ceased at the Prophet's death,
not Nizari Ismaili Shia branch.
They believe their Imam is nearly Allah, He has original un-edited Quran. He can change Salat, Fast, and Hujj, 3 essential foundation of Islam. Etc.


the need of Divine guidance continued and this could not be left merely to millions of mortal men, subject to the whims and gusts of passion and material necessity, capable of being momentarily but tragically misled by greed, by oratory. or by the sudden desire for material advantage. These dangers were manifestin the period immimmediately following our Holy Prophet's death......
The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance, and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali."

Well Hz Ali RA was leader of Umma nearly for five years and he was not able to convince majority that him and his progeny will always be there to provide this guidance. Just look at different factions of Imamat. Majority of Shia believe in Imam who is thousand year old and guides Mullas by some kind of Ilham.

We are in the month of fasting and to fast or not to fast is perrinial debate for Ismaili Muslims. Where is that guidance from Imam?

[junglikhan4]

[quote="zznoor"]

We are in the month of fasting and to fast or not to fast is perrinial debate for Ismaili Muslims. Where is that guidance from Imam?

Reply,

ZZ Aadaab,

Let me mention an event. About 12/13 years back, there was a meeting of Ismaili leadership in Paris with Shah Karim Al Hussaini Hazar Imam in the month of Ramadan. That meeting went on for 4/5 days. The Ismaili leadership found that Hazar Imam was fasting. They were surprised. They asked the question about Imam's fasting at Aiglemont. The secretary replied not only Imam but his daughter Princess Zahra and other family members also fast in Ramadan. When few leaders in their respective jamaits share this event, there was a pleasant change. Mostly ismailis started fasting in the month of Ramadan till today in various cities and towns where they live.

Let me quote a farman of MSMS, he said," HAQIQI MOMIN NOT ONLY FAST IN THE MONTH OF RAMADAN BUT FOR THEM 360 DAYS ARE FASTING-----".
Please look at the words 'NOT ONLY', also Ismailis have double resposibility,
first they have to fast in month of Ramadan and secondly they have to behave as a momin not to commit any sin whole year.

[kmaherali]

For Majority of Muslim that perfect guide is Quran and Authentic Sunna of the Prophet SAW.

"The Prophet died without appointing a Caliph or successor.

Astonishing admission! Is it not? ]

No it is not in the context of the whole passage.

And still some of umma is trying to prove succession by smoke and mirror method. The Prophet had ample opportunity to say that "Ali and his progeny will lead and guide umma till quayamat!". Also Allah had opportunity to state something like "O Muhammad you have to appoint leader who will guide umma after you" which would have been recorded in Quran]

There is discussion on this subject here...

Hadiths about Hazrat Ali,Ahl-e-Bait,PanjtanPaak
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ogeny+book

The Shia school of thought maintains that while direct Divine inspiration ceased at the Prophet's death,
not Nizari Ismaili Shia branch.
They believe their Imam is nearly Allah, He has original un-edited Quran. He can change Salat, Fast, and Hujj, 3 essential foundation of Islam. Etc.

Yes, the essence remains the same but the form can change according to the time.

Well Hz Ali RA was leader of Umma nearly for five years and he was not able to convince majority that him and his progeny will always be there to provide this guidance. Just look at different factions of Imamat. Majority of Shia believe in Imam who is thousand year old and guides Mullas by some kind of Ilham.

For the majority HA was not the spiritual guide. He was only a temporal leader, hence it would not be possible to convince the majority who did not consider him as the authority on religious matters. Islam is a diversity and there is strength in pluralsim. It was not meant to be a monolithic faith.

We are in the month of fasting and to fast or not to fast is perrinial debate for Ismaili Muslims. Where is that guidance from Imam?

In his Memoirs, MSMS states:
"Reasonable fasting for a month in every year, provided a man's health is not impaired thereby, is an essential part of the body's discipline-through which the body learns to renounce all impure desires."

What is reasonable and what is healthy varies from individual to individual and from one place to another. For one person it would be reasonable to fast for 2 hours whereas there are some yogis who can live without food. There are people dying as a result of fasting and there are people who find it difficult to earn their livelihood and support their families. In some countries people sleep during the day and work and feast at night during Ramadhan. This is not possible for all Muslims.

So it is impossible prescribe an exact method and duration of fasting applicable universally. However our Imams have always emphasised the intention or the spirit behind the fast - to learn to renounce all impure desires.

[kmaherali]

Let me mention an event. About 12/13 years back, there was a meeting of Ismaili leadership in Paris with Shah Karim Al Hussaini Hazar Imam in the month of Ramadan. That meeting went on for 4/5 days. The Ismaili leadership found that Hazar Imam was fasting. They were surprised. They asked the question about Imam's fasting at Aiglemont. The secretary replied not only Imam but his daughter Princess Zahra and other family members also fast in Ramadan. When few leaders in their respective jamaits share this event, there was a pleasant change. Mostly ismailis started fasting in the month of Ramadan till today in various cities and towns where they live..

Generally we don't follow what the Nurani family does but we follow what the Imam tells us in his Farmans. The Nurani family are considered pure and elevated and hence they have a different capacity than ordinary murids. They are not our models. MHI does not sleep, it does not follow that we should also not sleep. There is a verse in moman chetamni which states:

620) Eji Ali jina chaltra samoon nav joi ae
Sri satguru ne vachane seva kari ae saar
Jem jem kalikar vadhase monivaro
Tem ali rajo chaltra karshe aapar
Cheto.....


620. Do not look at what Ali does, but obey what He says, for as the times
will change, Ali's actions may be beyond your comprehension.

[agakhani_1]

who told that we Ismailis are not keeping fast in Ramadan?
There were and there are many Ismailis who were and still keep Roza in month of Ramadan, it is nothing wrong if you keep roza in this holy month of Ramadan, Ismailis has kept Roza before and they will keep same way other Muslims Brothers are keeping.

None of Ismaili Imams has prohibited us to not to keep Roza in month of Ramadan!!



I, will love to know the exact day, month and year of above event when this happened!! mentioned by Junglikhan (mazhar) ! I bet this kind event has never happened!! unless he proves that!!! by that time this is his new false facts towards Ismailis.

I have many Sunny friends who work with me! they consider themselves as a strict Shariyati but they are not keeping roza in this holy month of Ramadan!! Ismaili haters Mr. jungli KHan ! do you have answer for this!?

[junglikhan4]

Let me mention an event. About 12/13 years back, there was a meeting of Ismaili leadership in Paris with Shah Karim Al Hussaini Hazar Imam in the month of Ramadan. That meeting went on for 4/5 days. The Ismaili leadership found that Hazar Imam was fasting. They were surprised. They asked the question about Imam's fasting at Aiglemont. The secretary replied not only Imam but his daughter Princess Zahra and other family members also fast in Ramadan. When few leaders in their respective jamaits share this event, there was a pleasant change. Mostly ismailis started fasting in the month of Ramadan till today in various cities and towns where they live..

Generally we don't follow what the Nurani family does but we follow what the Imam tells us in his Farmans. The Nurani family are considered pure and elevated and hence they have a different capacity than ordinary murids. They are not our models. MHI does not sleep, it does not follow that we should also not sleep. There is a verse in moman chetamni which states:

620) Eji Ali jina chaltra samoon nav joi ae
Sri satguru ne vachane seva kari ae saar
Jem jem kalikar vadhase monivaro
Tem ali rajo chaltra karshe aapar
Cheto.....


620. Do not look at what Ali does, but obey what He says, for as the times
will change, Ali's actions may be beyond your comprehension.

Reply,

You deliberately did not discuss the farman of MSMS which I quote from kalam i Imam i Mubin ie, "HAQIQATI MOMIN NOT ONLY FAST IN THE MONTH OF RAMADAN------" What you have to say about this farman? though your statement is in favour of fasting in Ramadan. you quoted ginan,' obey what Ali says.Well then obey farman of Imam. I do not agree with you that family of H I is not our role model. This is your wrong assertion. No doubt they are our role models. Discussion is about fasting and not sleeping or not sleeping of Imam. Imam has said, he wakes up early in the morning.

[junglikhan4]

The handicapped childrens are facing punishments for their previous lives.
This topic has been discussed earlier.
Allah is no doubt RAHMAN AND RAHIM.

Reply,

One cold early morning in Toronto, I was waiting for bus ride. I was shivering, after few minutes a car stopped due to red light. On passenger side a beautiful young lady was sitting and in her lap was a dog. All of sudden dog looked at me and hang his tongue out and I felt he was laughing at me. I said to myself,
hatt teri ki, mera majaaq urata hai, abbey agley janam me tu meri jagha sardi me khara hoga ur me uus khubsurat larki kay garm couch pey bhetha hunga! socha yeh koi reincarnation ka chakkar to nahi.
While riding in bus, I thought after lakh chourasi key chakkar kay baad mei insaan bana, kis kaam ka, mujh sey to kutta bhalla jo abhi animal soul ki dunya me hai ur majjey lay raha hai. I think modern world's dogs and cats have better life than poor people of sub continent. Naseeb apna apna!