Changes in the Ginans

[Guest]

YAM,
I want to ask a question that why so many words from ginans are changed in pakistan e.g "hari" is changed into Ali.Is it due to farman of Hazr Imam or not? According to Kamaludin missionary we must use the words that are changed by tariqa board from ginans But Bahadur Ali and Abu Ali missionary are saying in their waez to use original words of ginan. In India and in U.S.A there is not much changings in ginans.[/b]

[rahimjumani]

As I heard in many lectures that in 1975, at "Paris Confrence" Imam gives special instruction to a team of Scholars to bring about necessary changes and repalce Islamic words intead of Hindi words in Ginan. After bringing necessary changes team reported to Hazir Imam and then later it all were publishe.

[nagib]

I have read the minutes of the Paris Conference and there is nothing which says that Changes have been approved at that time or later by Hazar Imam. Some ismailia Associations {pakistan/India] went ahead and made the changes but without approval from the Imam... There was a big fuss about this in later years at subsequent meetings. But nowadays, people do not respect anything, not the wording of ginans by Pirs nor even the wordings in Imam's sayings...

Nagib

[shamsu]

Just wanted to express my thoughts on the subject.

Who are we (mortals) to change the eternal word of our spiritual mother the PIR of the time.

All creation started with a word of the creator.

Our spiritual life is based on a word (BOL) given by the Imam.

Our identification in the physical world is with a word i.e. the Name on our birth certificates.

It is our word that we give to the Imam in the first khoba during Kangwa.

It is the word of the Imam that we get in Ka'kan.

How do we feel when someone changes our words in a statement to someone else?

The difference is simply the same as the difference between TRUE and FALSE.

The only entity that can change Pirs word is the Pir of the time.

Just as no one, other than myself, can change my word.

[Kmoosa]

I also noticed, that even in Anant Akhado many here in Canada would not let you recite certain versus as they were based on Hindi theology. I personaly don't think that we should change any of the wording from it's original quote's.

[shamsu]

Deen Islam is eternal.

Every faith uses it's own terms (words) to understand eternity.

This doesn't change the eternal truth.

If I say hari, how is that any different from Aly? The word hari means HE who lives in everyone. Now is that not true of Aly.

The word swami is used by a devoted wife to refer to her husband. It could mean protector, owner, leader. Is that a whole lot different from Mowla which means protector.

The word Vishnu comes from vishwa=universe and anu=atom He who exists in every atom of the universe.

Hazar Imam= Ever present Imam. Present everywhere. In every atom of the universe.

In light of the above understanding Is not Vishnu=Hazar Imam?

So how is the original ginan inaccurate?
It is not.
It has never been inaccurate.
It is the ignorance and weak Iman of the murids that makes them see eternal truths as Hindu theology and hence the censorship of original verses.

[star_munir]

YAM
Thank you very much to all of you.As we all know that many words are changed from ginans.Many verses of ginans are not allowed to recite in Jk of India and Pak.How can we stop these changings or what we can do to preserve original ginans for future generations.

[salimwali_mohd]

As far as my knowledge is that the changes is made due to circumstanses like some say that if my name is some thing who have authority to change his name? the answer is that initially our name was as well in hindu type but as we meture in religion we find that our religion is based on Islam so now we put our kids name on islamic way. Same as when these ginan was written at that time these words was used but now as you know that our ginan is in the course of BA degree and if the same words will be written then they (Sunni) get a chance to say that Ismailis are not Muslim they are HINDUS so on that basis and Imams Farman, only few words and few paat of the whole ginan treasure was discontinue. I hope that will be understable.
Salim

[shamsu]

As far as my knowledge is that the changes is made due to circumstanses like some say that if my name is some thing who have authority to change his name? the answer is that initially our name was as well in hindu type but as we meture in religion we find that our religion is based on Islam so now we put our kids name on islamic way. Same as when these ginan was written at that time these words was used but now as you know that our ginan is in the course of BA degree and if the same words will be written then they (Sunni) get a chance to say that Ismailis are not Muslim they are HINDUS so on that basis and Imams Farman, only few words and few paat of the whole ginan treasure was discontinue. I hope that will be understable.
Salim

Ya Aly Madad salimwali_mohd.

I do not understand why we have to fear what Sunni's say NOW. We have never changed our traditions for anyone other than the Imam of the Time, why start now?

No one seems to understand why we love Imam so much, we do not stop loving the Imam just for that.

People accuse us of shirk because we follow ahl-al-bayt, we don't stop following Mowla bapa for that.

If you listen to qasidas they openly declare Aly Allah. No one wants to change that because those murids would beat up anyone who suggests changing that.

The Indo-Pak murids are without himmat and so they are afraid of offending Sunni's and as a result are changing their own traditions.

Look at the Hindus, their idol worship is so bizzare and illogical but they don't change their traditions.

I think we can learn to hold on to our traditions from them. Our faith is based on Aql and if someone wants to change that they are declaring themselves Be-aql because of wanting that.

Lack of Knowledge, Understanding, Iman, Himmat, Conviction is what I think causes such buzdil suggestions to change the traditions.

You can only change what belongs to you, where no one else has a claim to it.
I do not think this basic fact is understood by the buzdil, darpoke, caring for the sunni opinion, types.

Sorry about the rant, this is just my opinion, I could be wrong.

shamsu

[star_munir]

Bahadur Ali Missionary said in his waez that there are verses About Jesus Christ in Quran Have you ever heard some one saying that it is chiristianity no.There are verses about Hazrat Mosa .
Now if there is Ginan about Harichandar Raja and Pahellaj why you are saying it is of hinduism and not of our religion.

[gasajoo]

hi and YAMs<BR><BR>Can any of your readers help me find the ginan called Chandrabann?

[shamsu]

This is a ginan written by pir shams

it is on page 105 of a blue hard cover book pavitra ginan sangra part 2

It may be available from Missionary Daredias Gift Store in Houston next to Savoy.

I am sorry I could not find the tel number or email addresses of his sons Nizar or Nazim.

If you know someone in houston they could easily get his tel number and email, its on his business card. I know he ships orders to people.

I would reccommend getting BUK Khangi Farman book of Imam SMS in Gujrati from him too.

[star_munir]

These are some point of views of missionaries regarding changes in Ginan:
Alwaez Kamaluddin: There is not rigidity in Ginans. There can be changes in Ginan therefore follow and recite Ginans as published by Tariqa Board and changings are made as per Guidance of Imam.

Bahadur Ali missionary: There is name of Moses and Jesus in Quran so is that chirstanity? Not its Islam than why if there is name of Harishchandra and Pahelaj in Ginan than people call it hinduism?
[therefore no need of changing orignal words of Ginan]

Alwaez Abu Ali Missionary:
Abu Ali missionary is totally against in changing words of Ginan. If there is word "swami" in orignal than not to recite it "Mowla" Follow the exact word for instance Rab and Allah means same but if there is word in Quran "Rab" than one must not recite it "Allah" saying that both means same therefore no difference...So same if in Ginan it is Swami than say Swami if it is Mowla than say Mowla.
Abu Ali missionary said our Pirs were not Hindus but Aal -e-Rasool,Aulad -e-Ali and Nabi so do you think they will make any mistakes? If you think so therefore it means you have not "imaan" i.e, faith in your religion.
Abu Ali missionary said Are you afraid of Non ismaili muslims ?
If you dont want to believe this religion than better leave Ismailism but dont make changings in it.

[star_munir]

continue from last post.....Abu Ali said According to Imam Ginans are wonderful tradition and Imam want us to preserve it for future Generations not to destroy it or make changings in it. He pointed out a Ginan which has original 15 verses but in book of Ginan of Tariqa board for Pakistan there are only 4 verses. Rest is taken out. Whats this??
The same is India..they are making it unauthentic.
Every nation of the world is tring its best to preseve their ancient literature in their orignal forms but ismailis are such that they wants to change it.......

[kmaherali]

This reminds me of an incidence that was related to me of MHI's visit to Pakistan where he attended a performance of Abida Parveen wherein she recited the Ginan "Aye raheman raheman". MHI had a mulaqat with the Jamat after that and the Jamat recited the same Ginan. MHI remarked that it was a better rendering and that it cooled his eyes!

My concern is also about there not being sufficient time to recite all the verses of a Ginan in JKs. Usually only 3 or 4 verses are recited because of time constraints. What about the rest. Perhaps in Mandlis efforts may be made to encourage recitation of whole Ginans else we will lose some of our tradition! Also we should compile a taped version of all Ginans for future generations.

[ShamsB]

We're discussing the changing of words in our ginans...
someone posted that swami and mowla mean the same thing..yet at the same time stating that a "WOMAN CALLS HER HUSBAND SWAMI...and MOWLA MEANS PROTECTOR.
Swami, shah and mowla are all gujrati/hindi..words..but they mean different things..
when you sing ginan..you are singing from the perspective of the pir..the pir veiws the imam as Swami..the lover..not shah/mowla..the king/protector..which relationship do you want with God? do you want to be a subject or a lover?
On another note..i've had numerous discussions with Alwaezes nonetheless who've been of the mind that the old dua was another piece of hindu literature..no connection with Islam..thus have had discussions where we talked about the imams prior to Hazrat Ali..and how that was all made up by the pirs to convert us from hindus...as was the old dua...
i've given up on trying to convince people not to forsake where we came from...
We're the Satpanthi Tradition...let's keep it alive..let's not forsake our tradition for the arabist interpretations of our faith..
as Hazar Imam has said..islam allows plurlality..as does ismailism.


Shams.

[star_munir]

Dear Shams,
Please read my post again I don't wrote that Swami and Mowla means same. Actually I qouted some point of views of some popular missionaries regaridng changings in Ginan and Alwaez Abu Ali said to use exact words which are in Ginan if its Hari than say Hari if its Ali than say Ali if its Mowla say Mowla if its Swami than say Swami dont change orignal word by saying that Swami or Mowla or Hari or Ali is used for same Person thats Imam so changing will not matter. Than he told like Rehman,Rahim,Rab,Allah all are names of God but in Quran if its Rab than every one says Rab no one says Allah and say that Rab is also Allah.So use orignal wordings

[_thaillestlunatic_]

continue from last post.....Abu Ali said According to Imam Ginans are wonderful tradition and Imam want us to preserve it for future Generations not to destroy it or make changings in it. He pointed out a Ginan which has original 15 verses but in book of Ginan of Tariqa board for Pakistan there are only 4 verses. Rest is taken out. Whats this??
The same is India..they are making it unauthentic.
Every nation of the world is tring its best to preseve their ancient literature in their orignal forms but ismailis are such that they wants to change it.......

Ya Aly Madat Munir,

I would like to share my thoughts and views on this

As I have been observing very recently. the library at jamatkhane does NOT have KIM or any ginan book for sale. Over talking to many missionaries and I have come to the conclusion that as per MHI farman in which he says "I am aware of the tariqah's work, they report to me" I think MHI in his role as PIR knows what ITREB is doing. Since ITREB has erased the other lines of the ginan without MHI permission. Abu Aly is 100 percent right but some in our deen just accept shariah and don't have a clue what tariqah is and so forth. Since there is no hidayat of the Imam on this issue I think we should all respect what ITREB is doing because Imam knows what they are doing and if people in ITREB aren't following their own mandate then they will be answerable to the Imam and not us.

Everything happens for a reason, maybe KIM and other Ginan books

and Farmans are not for sale for reasons. Times have changed and since

in the Ginans the Pirs talk about the faith and creation so openly, ITREB

is afraid ignorant people will tell all this to non ismailies and we will be

facing a huge dilemma. I know this is off-topic but this could be the reason

why Farmans are only to be read in JK and not anywhere else, only one

MHI Farman Mubarak book is for sale at the literature counter.

What are your thoughts?


Munir?

[star_munir]

Ya Ali Madad
I think if their purpose is to hide religion as ismailis can tell this to ignorant nonismailis and this will create problem for ismailis, this is wrong. As Non ismailis through internet can access to Ginans in orignal words and recently in Gujrat as one can read on homepage of this website will be international conference on Ginans by University of Gujrat by non ismailis. See dont you think it would be better if Itreb or Tariqa board or ismaili institution also do the same.
So what I meant is that by censoring in Ginans and Farman the loss is of ismailis and those nonismailis who want to find it can find it through internet and other sources so this may be reason that basic concepts such as about Imamat and Piratan is not known in correct manner by many ismailis of today.

[faisall667]

Yes I totally agree. It makes me mad that they censor the parts of the ginans. Hazir Imam in his farman said that Ginans are our tradition and we should uphold them. This is my view, but I also have to respect the Tariqa and accept what they do because, Hazir Imam appointed them, and disobeying the Tariqa, is like disobeying Hazir Imam. So, even though it makes some of us angry, we should still accept what they do. The best thing would be to actually go talk to the Tariqa and maybe try to convince them into not censoring the parts of the Ginans.

Faisal

[shamsu]

YAM ShamsB,

Have read some of your posts and find them impressive.

This is my stand,

My lover is also my protector.

You see I am not the aashiq any more, I am the maashooq and he is the aashiq, he protects me and loves me both at the same time.

Or you could say, in his loving me I feel protected.

Or you could say, him protecting me is a facet of his love for me.

P.S. Note that I have not mentioned anything about me loving him. Here I am the beloved.



Shams

[star_munir]

In past I had posted views of Kamaluddin missionary on changings in Ginan in seprate topic . I had also posted views of Abu Ali and Bahadur Ali on this topic.
Now I am posting Views of Alwaez Zarina Kamaludin on topic of Ginan.
She said in her waez that .....there are totalt 630 to 700 Ginans and 58 Granths. There are many unpublished Ginans which are not published because they are not in manuscript. Some Ginans have been kept for the purpose of research [only], in these Ginans there topics like das avtaar..Our Pir inorder to convince hindus said that there are avtars and Hari has come in His tenth avtar. In 1961 Imam made Farman in Pakistan to change the word of Hari into Ali. In 1891 Farman of Zanjbar Imam said not to recite about hinduism in Ginans, it was for that time when you were hindus Now leave 9 Avtars and talk about Ali...

[star_munir]

Uptil now discussion in this topic here or under many other topics we were at conclusion that there isnt any Farman regarding changes in Ginan nor it is in Paris Conference now do any one know about this Farman made in 1961????

[kmaherali]

These are my thoughts on why we should be saying 'Hari' and not 'Ali'.

- By saying 'Ali' we are distorting the integrity of our traditions. Consider the following interpretation of the word 'Hari' given by Paramahansa Yogananda as:

"Hari, "the stealer" of hearts, is a name given to Sri Krishna as an incarnation of Vishnu. In this role as an avatar, he takes away the evil of maya from the hearts of receptive devotees so that their purified devotion flows unceasingly in worshipful adoration of the Lord."

Saying Ali would not convey the above sense of Hari although off course one could construe it as such.

- By saying Hari we are acknowledging the plurality of our tradition - that it is not restricted to a particular context of space and time. As stated by Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah in his memoirs:

"Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countries Gautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe."

[star_munir]

KmaherAli I agree with your thoughts and point of views. I checked the Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, in that Farman Imam not said to not recite Ginans about Das Avtar,can you write the English translation of that part of Farman? And Do you know is there any Farman of Imam in 1961 in Pak to say Ali instead of Hari???

[kmaherali]

KmaherAli I agree with your thoughts and point of views. I checked the Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah, in that Farman Imam not said to not recite Ginans about Das Avtar,can you write the English translation of that part of Farman? And Do you know is there any Farman of Imam in 1961 in Pak to say Ali instead of Hari???

YAM Munir,
Can you let me have the date and place where the Farman was made. I will try to tanslate it. I have no idea of this Farman of 1961 and in which context it was made. Perhaps someone like Kasmali from Pakistan could enlighten us on this.

[star_munir]

The date of Farrman of KIM is of 20 August 1899.It was in Zanzibar.

[kmaherali]

The date of Farrman of KIM is of 20 August 1899.It was in Zanzibar.

Here is my attempt at a translation.

"It is not appropriate that you should discuss matters pertaining to Hinduism as an aspect of knowledge. When you were Hindus, Pir Sadardin showed you the way. That time has now gone.

Now you should praise Mowla and his progeny. Read about the praises of HazarImam. Now abandon 9 manifestations ( nav avtar). Read about the praises of the 10th manifestation which is comprised of our forefathers. Read the Ginans wherein the 10th manifestation is explained."

[star_munir]

KMaherAli thanks for writing English translation but as you wrote last line,"Read the Ginans wherein the 10th manifestation is explained."
I think it is that Imam says to read das avtar in Ginans but not to believe in other false stories...;[from other sources]
Am I right or wrong ? as in this Farman also Imam told that all stories associated with Karbala and Imam Hussain are not completly correct. Its right that Imam Hussain was martyred but enemies not made insult of Ahl-e-Bayt...

[nagib]

Can someone translate. The first verse is from original wordind, the second verse is the same with a modern touch.

1) Ali rupe Hari aawiyaa

2) Ali rupe Ali awiyaa.

Does it make sense to change ginans?

And if Pir Sadardin wrote the original wording but Jafferbhai is responsible for changing the wording, should we not change also the last verse to say boliya boliya master jafferbhay? That would be a nice recognition, wouldn't it