A Balance of Struggle Between Zahiri & Batini

[shiraz.virani]

Now, if I were on a golf-course, let us say, and it was the due occasion, I should pray to God. I should not make a show of it, but I should go apart to pray

AgaKhan III

There you go !!!....You have a clear cut answer from the progeny of rasool[saw]....How do you balance zahir and batin ??...On baatini level a momin is always god conscious [zikr]...and on zaheri level we performs all the necessary obligations [without making a show of it]

Our 49th imam said the same on number of events...if you are too busy in your material world "keep tasbih" with you and whenever you get the chance say " Yaa Allah, Yaa Ali..Yaa Muhammad "

If at all you wanna stay happy just follow what ahle bait teaches you simple !!!

[tret]

..but I do not believe some ayas which looks like out dated and false to me, I think this way because in my thinking it is either edited, deleted or outdated as per my own interpretation..[/b]

So you are the one who decide which part of Qur'an is outdated/false/wrong. Okay I get it. So from now on, whoever need to know which ayas are wrong/false/outdated, should come see mr. agakhani (the know-it-all man).

.
Who can tell you the interpretation you are making of certain ayas are right or wrong? or the Yusuf Ali's interpretation is right and Pickthaul's interpretation is wrong? In my thinking MHI can say that but it is very hard to make contact with him and ask about that. ..

So you decided to do your own interpretation of Qur'an and make call on which ayas are false/wrong/outdated? Where does it stop? Are you gonna create your own sect one day?

[agakhani]

Let me ask you this when did I refused and said not to ask MHI, can you find out any post of mine about this? you are making your own ideas bro! in my opinion MHI( RASIKUN FIN ILM) is the only one can tell you what is right or wrong in quran, THEREFORE FOR ME READING ONLY HIS FARMANS AND GINANS ARE ENOUGH IN COMPARISON WITH QURAN but in my case I also read Quran and Ahdis on and off ! what do you want me to do? not read Quran!!?

But let me honestly confuse here that that the translation or interpretation which I made of some ayas (for an example some ayas seems outdated to me but not others) may be wrong, it is 100% possible so no argue about that and that is another reason I backed off, so let me believe what I am believing about those ayas and you believe what other interpreters says about these ayas period. Neither I am Quranic scholar, not a religious teacher or an Al-waez so I may be wrong in many ways.

[Admin]

Lets not forget that Hazar Imam said that there are thousands of interpretations of the Quran. Let's give some breathing space to all of them and recognise that the interpretation of the Imam is final in this regard.

[ShamsB]

Lets not forget that Hazar Imam said that there are thousands of interpretations of the Quran. Let's give some breathing space to all of them and recognise that the interpretation of the Imam is final in this regard.

Sorry Admin - piggybacking off your last post....

And here we go again.seems like any thread will become one on the Qur'an.

Shams

[ShamsB]

Shariat is a light you need it the most at dark (night) to show you your path (Tariqat) which will eventually take you to your destination (Haqiqat). But, if it's not dark anymore, you won't need the light (Shariat). It's best to keep the light(Shariat) closer to you when it's darkest.

On the other hand, in a pluralistic society, shariat doesn't prevent you from getting to Haqiqat, so long as you know the moral of Shariat (batini meaning).

TRET, could not agree with you more! Very well explained.

Also, In Ismailism, we are the "Batuni" faith. Of course the living Imam is the "Speaking Quran". I also agree that every Ismaili should read Quran, and understand the meaning. All the questions about why we do or do not do according to the Quran should reflect to the "Aql-E-Qul" and at changing times Imam will guide us through because he is the "Speaking Quran". Imam will tell us if certain aspect of Ummah practice is relevant or irrelevant to Ismailis, because what is necessary for us at this time and age is that the Imam has given us the basic guidance of what to do, like our Holy Dua (Namaz), Dasond (Zakah), Bandagi (Meditation) and other rights and rituals like "Shukrawari Beej", and then and explanation o­n Fasting, be it Beej or Ramadhan (Not o­nly by mouth, but with total purity during fasting like, good deeds, hear no evil, say no evil etc..). Our's (Ismailis) is to follow what the Present Imam says....PERIOD.

Now, as far as the question to why we "Ismailis" do or not do what is prescribed in the Quran like "Ramadhan Fast", then that is an individual's choice, we are NOT prohibited to fast during Ramadhan, nor it is forcefully prescribed to us by the Imam either at this time (But, as time changes, and if the Imam sees it fit then, maybe time will determine it differently in future).
Follow the basic guidance put in place by the present Imam (The speaking Quran).

In fact was reading His faramin to my daughter the other day, where Hazar Imam encourages reading and knowing Quran (Precious Gems Vol1, page44 and 45). And I believe that ALL the New Jamat Khana's and prayer halls are now being build to face Kaaba (This was a timely descision of the Imam-E-Zaman). The reason we did not have that prior is there were not many purpose built Jamat Khanas around and we certainly need to pray whether we face Kaaba or not! (Also, remember The batuni aspect of Ismailism,and Ismaili history of period of hiding until recent).

So, in conclusion, if you do more by following the Quran besides the basic guidance then more "Sawab" to you but unless the Present time Imam changes things according to time then we are to absolutely follow the Faramin. The changes in how and what to teach in our REC is again an absolute guidance from Hazar Imam, and as a matter of fact other sect of Muslims are wanting to adapt our example of "Bait-ul-ilm" approach. Hence, the descision of Du'a instead of Namaz was a descision of the Speaking Quran at that time (Sorry, don't know the Imamat period). So, if we have an Imam who interpretes Quran and changes how He wants our Namaz (Du'a) to be practiced then it is final! By the way, Du'a is verses from Quran-E-Sharrif and so is Namaz (They are both Du'as). That again, after Golden Jubilee, according to "time", Hazar Imam has approved a new Namaz (Du'a) for Ismailis. lastly, to be an Ismaili is to do Bayyah of Hazar Imam, which mean "Complete Obedience" to the Imam. Hope this helps o­n your research.
Do I have Quran backup or Faramin back up to claim what I say is valid? In my opinion and two cents worth, I'd say let's start with basic farman bardari and basic prescibed guidance, it in itself will take more than our lifetime! Quran is a "Sea of knowledge", if we fulfill just 0.1% with faith then we are lucky!

Don't take me wrong in any sense of my explanation. I meant well. Just little knowledge that I have, had to share.[

Sorry just a couple of small corrections; all in all a good post.

the new namaz whenever it is released is not going to replace the Du'a. It is going to be a form of personal prayer - not a public prayer as the Du'a is.

In regards to purpose built JamatKhanas - we have many purpose built jamatkhanas - just look at the ones in East Africa that were built during the times of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah and Hazar Imam - in terms of facing Kaaba; how do you determine if a Jamatkhana faces Kaaba,
if you notice not everyone in the Jamatkhana will face Kaaba during prayer times..

Pir in the Ginans have said:
"Dil Maahe Deval Duvar"
in another Ginan
"Mann Mera Musala, Mowla uska Kaazi"

The Quran says "There is no compulsion in religion"...
Faith is a very personal thing - we have to be as pluralistic as possible to allow maximum ways of practice - who are we to judge if someone's prayer is accepted or not if they recite it without facing Qibla?
In faith, it is intent that matters..TRUE INTENT.

I agree with most of your post - just wanted to highlight these 2 areas.

Shams

[ShamsB]

The person who is groveling in filth night and day is a slave who has no desire for freedom. What is the difference between the Shariat and the Haqiqat? They are two different things altogether. One prefers the Book , the Roja and Namaz; the other one yearns for freedom. The two are worlds apart; they shall never come together.

USUL-E -DIN - SMS - Dar-es-salaam, September 29, 1899

Powerful words.

Shams

[ShamsB]

Again a "farman" is needed about not to "sawm".

Again, I will not go into a conversation with counter questions, especially questions pertaining to where in Farman has MHI said we should not fast because if the Iman has not said in any Farman that we should not, neither has he said that we should. This is NOT an answer at all, in fact it becomes a kind of chicken and the egg scenario, which to my opinion is not intellectual at all.

In Islam, don't follow the followers, rather follow Quran and Imam of the Time so that you don't get lost.

Thank you...that puts me back to my track again. The Qur'an says clearly to fast during the month of Ramadan, so why don't we, especially Khoja Ismailis.

Ramadan is the (month) in which was sent down the Quran, as a guide to mankind, also clear (Signs) for guidance and judgment (between right and wrong). So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting....(Surah Al-'Imran 3:103)

As I grew up, I have observed that we Khoja Ismailis have never taken this commandment seriously. Each time I ask this question, sorry but I get replies like you just did, where did our Imam said "NO". Well, why are we not trained since young during REC about this commandment? Why is that this is not in our curriculum for the kids? Why we Ismailis don't practice this at all? And those who does, like me, are doing it without see this as part of our active practicing Tariqah.

Each prophet came with the same message, i.e. To Keep The Commandments. It came to Prophet Musa, Prophet Isa and Prophet Muhammad. We can see the traces of this message even right now in Torah & Injil (New & Old Testaments). We should adhere to every testament that is in Qur'an. When it comes to this, why don't we?

You want to fast - go ahead and fast - no one's stopping you or judging you. As stated a number of times there are no provisions in our Tariqah that prevent you from fasting.
I don't want to fast because I don't see that as a necessary part of the practice of my faith.


Our Imam talks about Pluralism -

Why are you mandating your belief systems on us?
What is the difference between you and the Taliban then?

The memoirs clearly state - you cannot remain within the faith and be a reformist - you either follow the tenets or you can leave the faith.

If you watch the NDTV interview towards the end - Hazar Imam clearly makes the most pluralistic statement in terms of what is a Muslim - one who proclaims the Shahadah
What a broadminded and all inclusive approach - versus this narrowminded prescription that you want to IMPOSE upon us.

Once again - you can do all of the things you think necessary for the practice of YOUR faith - nothing gives you the right to mandate or judge the rest of us.

The Quran that you keep quoting - says - "THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION"

Shams

[ShamsB]

..but I do not believe some ayas which looks like out dated and false to me, I think this way because in my thinking it is either edited, deleted or outdated as per my own interpretation..[/b]

So you are the one who decide which part of Qur'an is outdated/false/wrong. Okay I get it. So from now on, whoever need to know which ayas are wrong/false/outdated, should come see mr. agakhani (the know-it-all man).

.
Who can tell you the interpretation you are making of certain ayas are right or wrong? or the Yusuf Ali's interpretation is right and Pickthaul's interpretation is wrong? In my thinking MHI can say that but it is very hard to make contact with him and ask about that. ..

So you decided to do your own interpretation of Qur'an and make call on which ayas are false/wrong/outdated? Where does it stop? Are you gonna create your own sect one day?

Tret,

I am going back to one of your old posts - i can't find it here - so am using this.
I think you stated something about the quran being outdated/false or wrong.

I'll set up a context.

1. Is the Imam Rasikun Fil Ilm?
2. If so, then the Imam is the one that can interpret the Quran for us?
3. The Noor of the Imam is the same that it has been since Time Immemorial - the Noor of Ali is present today in the form of Shah Karim?
3. If the Imam states that the current Quran (the Uthmanic Quran) is altered and not correct? As an Ismaili - you are bound to follow the words of the Imam.
(Refer to Kalame Imame Mubeen - there is a Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah to this effect btw)
In regards to following the Imam in matters of Faith - there are a number of places/interviews where Hazar Imam has clearly stated that in matters of the Faith - the Imam's word is Absolute.

We can agree to disagree and I think all will be good then.

"to you yours, to me mine."

Shams

[a_27826]

http://www.ismaili.net/foto/5910322j.html

I strongly suspect its the "Yemeni Quran"

[ShamsB]

http://www.ismaili.net/foto/5910322j.html

I strongly suspect its the "Yemeni Quran"

And your point being?
Hazar Imam wears shoes inside Jamatkhana and inside Darbar halls - when you can do that - you can lay claim to this.

A sunni muslim can take the picture of the Imam reciting Namaz and telling us this is what your Imam does - why don't you recite Namaz?

And on the flip side - someone can share with you the recording of Hazar Imam and Prince Amyn reciting the Arabic Du'a in Madagascar in 1956 and point to that.....as being the correct form of prayer for us..

If you follow the Imam - follow his words; you've been pointed to a Farman made by the Imam in regards to the authenticity of the Quran - yet you still beat around the bush.

If you feel you have more "ILM" than the Imam - all the more power to you.
I don't.

I will follow the farmans of the Imam - and it's been pointed out to you there are a number of farmans not just in the context of the Authenticity of the Present version (Uthmanic Version) of the Quran but also to which interpretation to follow -
1000s of interpretations - we are supposed to look at those that are Shi'a and are relevant to our faith -
You seem to want to shove your interpretations down our throat and how you understand them...
Look - agree to disagree - because none of us is right and none of us is wrong
Faith and the belief is personal - and if you think by my stating a historical fact and what is in the FARMAN of the IMAM to whom I have given Ba'yah makes me an apostate - then so be it
I am kafiroon
I quote then from your holy book - "to me mine - to you yours" Go in peace.
should i add my own greeting? Jai Shri Hazar Imam?
Shams

[a_27826]

Hazar Imam wears shoes inside Jamatkhana and inside Darbar halls - when you can do that - you can lay claim to this.

I don't think God has ordered not to wear shoes while praying to Him.

I think the reason we are not wearing them while praying is because they are dirty and not because they are shoes.

But then I could be wrong, a verse comes to my mind 020:012 "I am your Lord; put off your shoes; you are in the holy valley, Towa

Regarding Imam, he has authority to do anything he wants.

[tret]

Tret,

I am going back to one of your old posts - i can't find it here - so am using this.
I think you stated something about the quran being outdated/false or wrong.

No. I never claimed that Qur'an is false/outdated/wrong.

I'll set up a context.

1. Is the Imam Rasikun Fil Ilm?
Yes

2. If so, then the Imam is the one that can interpret the Quran for us?
Yes

3. The Noor of the Imam is the same that it has been since Time Immemorial - the Noor of Ali is present today in the form of Shah Karim?
Yes

3. If the Imam states that the current Quran (the Uthmanic Quran) is altered and not correct?
If MHI says that, then yes I concur. I haven't read that Farman yet myself. I have seen people made reference to it, but haven't read it myself. So, if you be so kind and provide the excerpt or link or tell me the name date/time/place, i can ask my local JK for reference. Then yes.


As an Ismaili - you are bound to follow the words of the Imam.
(Refer to Kalame Imame Mubeen - there is a Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah to this effect btw)
In regards to following the Imam in matters of Faith - there are a number of places/interviews where Hazar Imam has clearly stated that in matters of the Faith - the Imam's word is Absolute.

We can agree to disagree and I think all will be good then.

"to you yours, to me mine."

Shams

Shams brother, I am not disagreeing with what you are explaining at all one bit. What I am trying to explain to agakhani, is that we are not in any position to claim or say that Qur'an is false/outdated/wrong, even if that maybe true. Just for simple reason that our Du'a is taken from the same Qur'an. If that's true that Qur'an is altered/tampered with, MHI would know best how/which part to interpret and send to us (murid's) as form of Farameen, which should be for us to follow as Ismailies. So, I don't know if agakani is trying to say the same thing but has difficulty expressing his opinion? or he means something else altogether.

Again, it's not our place to call if Qur'an is false. Let's leave it to our MHI, since he knows best.

[tret]

Hazar Imam wears shoes inside Jamatkhana and inside Darbar halls - when you can do that - you can lay claim to this.

I don't think God has ordered not to wear shoes while praying to Him.

I think the reason we are not wearing them while praying is because they are dirty and not because they are shoes.

But then I could be wrong, a verse comes to my mind 020:012 "I am your Lord; put off your shoes; you are in the holy valley, Towa

Regarding Imam, he has authority to do anything he wants.

regarding the authority, can someone explain, if universal intellect is referring to Imam and universal soul is referring to Profet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HK-HWEazkzw

[nuseri]

If Quran is understood at Baatin level:

Imam is much much beyond 'Rasikin ful Ilm"(excuse the spelling).
As Baatin Imam Is the 'Allah' himself, which is mentioned in each and every page of Quran.
The word 'Rasikful Ilm' is surely surely referred to Pirs Dai's n Sufi,who are acknowledged and recognized by the Imam of the Time.
they in likes of Pir Sadarddin, Nasir Khusraw,Shams Tabriz,Jalauddin Rumi etc.
the word 'Ul il Amr' can be attributed to the Imam.
the word "Rasikulfilm" is defined as person deeply rooted into knowledge.
,which is akin to like a single tree rooted in a soil,Imam/Allah is much much beyond a tree ,He is source of all Knowledge(Aql E Kul),not a single solid tree or the soil beneath but the Whole Universe
That is why Imam SMS in his Farmans has told us to read n UNDERSTAND
the Ginans, n Masnavi of Rumi in lieu of' Quran', because they were written by Rasik fil ilm'.
THAT IS MY IRREVOCABLE CONVICTION
At Zahiri level 70% of the Ayats are very tricky,where a reader does not know the head or tail of it,Just assumptions n guess work.

[agakhani]

What I am trying to explain to agakhani, is that we are not in any position to claim or say that Qur'an is false/outdated/wrong, even if that maybe true.

Forget about me, since I intentionally backed off my self to debate in this regard but what would you explain to those peoples who are still saying Quran is incomplete/false/outdated and changed?? and they claim themself as Muslim!! Do they going to ask this question to Rasikun fin Ilam, our Hazar Imam?

[shiraz.virani]

Agakhani bhai and Tret....you two are shia imami ismailis and you two believe in imamat, I'm just curious to know when you two are sailing in the same ship why are you busy trying to make a hole into this ship ???

It looks as if agakhani bhai made a hole in the ship for no reason [useless arguments] and to stop the ship from drowning Tret made another hole thinking that the water from 1st hole will go out of the 2nd hole.

SO THE wHOLE point is.....MOVE ON !!!

[agakhani]

Good " CHANAKYA NITI" brother Shiraz, I do not know that you are a philosopher like "Kotilya Chanakya"oh brother!! but your saying is well taken from my side I do not know about opposite side!? They are keep bombarding me even they know I am out of race!.
But you can not tell that my thinking is useless, there were and there are too many believers still think quran is old, quran is out dated, quran is in complete or or quran was never reveled on prophet Mohammed at all!!, how can you stop them? Your answer is not necessary but think that I am not only who believe that Quran is incomplete,tampared or outdated there are still many peoples believe this way, even some peoples during the time of Prophet used to believe that Quran is never revealed on Prophet!!.
(Astgafirullah)

[tret]

.. Tret made another hole thinking that the water from 1st hole will go out of the 2nd hole.[/b]

Kindly point out, what I said is wrong!! Whatever agakani is trying to say; maybe correct maybe not. But the way he says it definitely not acceptable not only by mainstream muslims but for ismailies either. I mean you yourself opposed him.

Well, like you said it's time to move on. we certainly have better things to worry about than this. After all, we are all ismailies and obey Farameen of our MHI.

[zznoor]

What I am trying to explain to agakhani, is that we are not in any position to claim or say that Qur'an is false/outdated/wrong, even if that maybe true.

Forget about me, since I intentionally backed off my self to debate in this regard but what would you explain to those peoples who are still saying Quran is incomplete/false/outdated and changed?? and they claim themself as Muslim!! Do they going to ask this question to Rasikun fin Ilam, our Hazar Imam?

Will Rasikun fin Ilam, your Hazar Imam answer that question? Even Ismailis are not able to forward questions to him.
It would be nice if Shia, Sunni, ahmedi, Zaidis etc. scholars drew up petition and asked this to Rasikun fin Ilam, your Hazar Imam. He is only Rasikun fin Ilam we have.

[tret]

Will Rasikun fin Ilam, your Hazar Imam answer that question? Even Ismailis are not able to forward questions to him.
It would be nice if Shia, Sunni, ahmedi, Zaidis etc. scholars drew up petition and asked this to Rasikun fin Ilam, your Hazar Imam. He is only Rasikun fin Ilam we have.

I know you must be really pissed off, but what are your real intentions by coming here? I mean behind every action, there's an intention. What are yours? Is it to lean something? Apparently doesn't look like it!

Had you believed to Imam-e-Hazir (or Imamiah concept at all), you wouldn't take the concept of bayat that simple. Now whatever an ismaili (or an imamia shia) tells you, would be all in vain. So, do us a favor; save yours and ours breath and move on!

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
A small story to differentiate Zahiri n Baatin.
In a small town there was doctor a nationally famous heart surgeon.
This doctor sported a french beard n wore baseball cap.
Beside that he was regular in church n knelt down while praying.
He had good social values having a happy family,he was charitable in waiving of his fees in surgery.He was active in church activities.He also presented papers n spoke at conferences on Heart Surgery.
All in All ,he was like a first citizen of town and a role model for many.
Upon his death, the priest n community leaders from across the state told that everybody must become like doctor.

Now after many years 90% of males of the town kept french beard,wore baseball cap and knelt while praying tried to look akin to him. They said his other aspect were personal n professional practice.
They saw the doctor at level one only physically n said he never went beyond that level that was the firm opinion of 90%( majority).
so many newcomer to the town jump into their bandwagon.

Few of the 10% observed the doctors social life ,his charity n his education, they pursued their choice of profession but they disliked the idea of sporting a beard or wearing baseball cap.

2 out of 100 went on study medical science with excellence in their practice and tried best of embedded values held by the Doctor.

Now from heaven God is showing the Doctor his town where he lived.
How they followed Him in physically( zahir) in qualitative living( tariqat)and intellectualy.(Baatin/Haqiqat).

Every segment says they follow the legacy of the doctor,the most vocal being the majority n also the most ignorant as seen from heavens.

Even recently in an interview.MHI has said this modern( educated) world/society is still a Clash of the Ignorant.

It is futile to argue endless with a satanic Zahiri,because they see the ignorant 'Majority' is always right n are convinced that Rasulillah (pbuh) never went beyond level 1.

[Admin]

Please remain courteous. No need to insult anyone. That does not give respect to our community

[ShamsB]

What I am trying to explain to agakhani, is that we are not in any position to claim or say that Qur'an is false/outdated/wrong, even if that maybe true.

Forget about me, since I intentionally backed off my self to debate in this regard but what would you explain to those peoples who are still saying Quran is incomplete/false/outdated and changed?? and they claim themself as Muslim!! Do they going to ask this question to Rasikun fin Ilam, our Hazar Imam?

Will Rasikun fin Ilam, your Hazar Imam answer that question? Even Ismailis are not able to forward questions to him.
It would be nice if Shia, Sunni, ahmedi, Zaidis etc. scholars drew up petition and asked this to Rasikun fin Ilam, your Hazar Imam. He is only Rasikun fin Ilam we have.

Because all the answers are in the farmans and ginans that we have! How many times do we have to tell you that?

Seriously - if you don't want to follow our Imam you don't have to.
We're not asking you to - all we're asking is for you to leave us alone and let us practice our faith. What's is your problem with letting us do that?

Ignorance is bliss - we are happy in our ignorance.

If it's making it easier for you - we are kafiroon and using the Qur'an which you hold infallible - wherein it says -
"to you yours - and to me mine"

or is this the part of Qur'an you say doesn't apply to you? ..so what parts do? is it about convenience or conviction?

See we follow or are supposed to follow all of the farmans of our Imam....

Once again - this is an Ismaili Site - you don't like what we say - time to go bye bye no?

Shams

[agakhani]

Will Rasikun fin Ilam, your Hazar Imam answer that question? Even Ismailis are not able to forward questions to him.
It would be nice if Shia, Sunni, ahmedi, Zaidis etc. scholars drew up petition and asked this to Rasikun fin Ilam, your Hazar Imam. He is only Rasikun fin Ilam we have.

There is no doubt he is not a Rasikun Fin Ilamm he is, sister!: and let me tell you this, when time will come nobody have to ask him about Quran he will introduce the complete Quran then, but wait! this is not my saying but our ginans and farmans are telling this from a long time.

[agakhani]

But the way he says it definitely not acceptable not only by mainstream muslims but for ismailies either. I mean you yourself opposed him.

Here you go again, Tret! I already told you let me believe what I am believing about "outdated" Quran, if you not believe that way that is fine with me, neither you or Shiraz nor any body in this forum has to agree on my belief. let me ask you this, there were and there are too many believers (even in Muslim sects) still think that quran is old, quran is out dated, quran is incomplete or Quran is tampered, and many still think that quran was never reveled on prophet Mohammed at all(Astagafirullah) !!, how can you stop them? what would you tell them??Think, think! are you going to fight with them? because they are saying bad about Quran? or crush them?.
For me, the farmans and ginans are enough.

So, please close this topic at least for those peoples who feel bad after reading different views about Quran!.

[Admin]

Stick to the thread. I have closed the other thread and all have moved the same discussion in this thread. This is not what I expected. Now should I also close this thread?

[zznoor]

There is no doubt he is not a Rasikun Fin Ilamm he is, sister!: and let me tell you this, when time will come nobody have to ask him about Quran he will introduce the complete Quran then, but wait! this is not my saying but our ginans and farmans are telling this from a long time.

My hats off to your faith in your Imam, who could not even pronounce Niaz properly (based on post by Admin).

[Admin]

If I see any more insult to our Imam in your post, I will delete your account zznoor.

This is enough. I know you can not understand the difference between the temporary physical body of the Aga Khan and the Eternal Light of the Imam and I have been very patient and very tolerant with your postings.

I will not tolerate that you break the rules. Go back to the sections that explains the rules for posting and unless you read them and understand them properly, please refrain from posting here. Insult to ANY person from the Noorani family is not allowed.

Admin

[nuseri]

Ya ali madad:
I wish to read the post where the pronoun cation of the word 'niaz' or else is mentioned.
any pronoun cation is only understood by listening to it n not the 'written to be understood as 'in the Court of law.
Admin can where i can see the post.