The Sermon of Iftikhár by the Imám 'Alí
(as narrated by Asbagh, the son of Nubáta)
Imám 'Alí said:
"..I am the brother of the Messenger of God and the Heir to His knowledge, the treasury of His wisdom, and the Companion of His secret.
There is not a letter revealed by God in any of His Books whose intention does not point towards me.
He hath vouchsafed unto me the knowledge of what was from eternity and what will happen unto the Day of Resurrection.
To me hath been vouchsafed the knowledge of past and future generations and their genealogies.
And to Me hath been given a thousand keys to a thousand doors.
The knowledge of the destinies of all things hath been granted unto me. All these Gifts shall continue to flow through my Appointed Successors (wasi's) as long as day is followed by night and night followed by day and until all things return to God....."
(So who are Ali's (AS) appointed successors? and so why should one now not focus on them in the present?)
"For verily, He is the True Inheritor of all things. Unto me, too, hath been vouchsafed the Path, the Balance, the Banner, and the Kawthar...."
"..Ali (AS) says..."I am the One who befriended Seth, the son of Adam[10], the companion of Moses and Irám, and all metaphors and analogies pertain unto Me.
Who indeed is there to compare with Me? ..."
(So if the son of Adam as you say based on Corbin that he was an Imam, but whom Ali As calls his friend and considering that (a) there cannot be two Imams per era and that Ali has said categorically that all metaphors and analogies pertain to him i.e. Ali...., then who was the Imam, if there was one? Seth or Ali? or both ? or is Seth in your lingo none other than Ali (AS)?)
"..For I am the heaven-sent rain that causeth each blade of green to grow, the Lord of this nether realm Who brings forth the rains when all have lost their hope in its downpour.
I am the refuge of all that have obeyed God, and verily, God is my Lord and there is no other God but He. For falsehood offers illusions, but truth giveth thee everlasting sovereignty...."
"..I am both the witness and the One witnessed to, the possessor of the green canopy, He Whose name is mentioned in the heavens and the earth, Who is the traveling companion of the Messenger of God throughout the heavens, for with Me is the Book and the sacred Arc.
I am the Possessor of the Greatest Cause. Is there anyone who can speak beside Me? I am fire itself.
At a single Word of God, at one utterance of the Prophet, I would put within you My sword's length and send you hurrying unto your next abode. ..."
I am the meaning of Ramadán and the night of Qadr[8] mentioned in the Mother Book.
My utterance is decisive, for I am the Súrah of Praise[9]. I am the purpose of prayer itself, whether at home or when traveling.
I shall protect the faith of my Lord.
I am the One Whom my Cousin chose, Who was present when His sacred remains were shrouded.
I am the Guardian appointed by God, the Most Merciful God, the companion of Khidir[7] and Aaron, and the friend of Moses and Joshua, the son of Nun.
I have existed throughout the past, and, verily, I have never uttered a falsehood.
Through a word from Me, truth hath been separated from error, for I speak through divine inspiration and know of the stars and constellations. God hath commanded me to ordain their orbit and vouchsafed unto me their knowledge.
I give life unto humanity and I am the treasury of all divine commands. To Me hath been given the Luminous Pen and the Crimson Camel[6].
For I am also the slayer of oppressors, the treasury of divine favours in this world and of the next.
I am the master of the believers, the guide of those who seek the way.
The truth is Mine and certitude is at My side. Leadership is Mine and the righteous shall follow Me. ..."
(Follow Ali !!!!)
"...I am the first to acknowledge faith, the Cord of God that shall not be broken, the One who will raise the world to justice even as it hath been brought low by oppression.
I am the companion of Gabriel and the archangel Michael is beside Me.
I am forever new and forever pre-existent, the One who brought the Angels from out of their habitations, the One who pledged an everlasting covenant with your spirits on the dawn of creation and Who, on that day, asked, through the will of God, the Self-subsisting, these words: "Am I not your Lord?"
I am the Word of God [Kalimat'u'lláh] which hath been uttered in the world of creation, the Object of the covenant that hath been promised in the prayers and salutations which lie in the reality of all created things.
And verily I say unto you, he who denies any one of Us, hath denied God.
I am the one who shall face the children of Adam on the Day of Judgement and shall bring them to account and shall direct them to their habitations. ..."
Muslim first, Ismaili second
"...And verily I say unto you, he who denies any one of Us, hath denied God....." i.e. Ali and his pure descendants !
"...I am the one who shall face the children of Adam on the Day of Judgement and shall bring them to account and shall direct them to their habitations. ..."
Ali calls SETH a son of Adam - and so whom will SETH face on the day of Judgment? and who will bring him to account? and who will direct SETH to his habitation?...I am just wondering YAYM ?
"...I am the one who shall face the children of Adam on the Day of Judgement and shall bring them to account and shall direct them to their habitations. ..."
Ali calls SETH a son of Adam - and so whom will SETH face on the day of Judgment? and who will bring him to account? and who will direct SETH to his habitation?...I am just wondering YAYM ?
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YaAliYaMowla
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Unfortunately, you have gone back to being incoherent again.znanwalla wrote:"...And verily I say unto you, he who denies any one of Us, hath denied God....." i.e. Ali and his pure descendants !
"...I am the one who shall face the children of Adam on the Day of Judgement and shall bring them to account and shall direct them to their habitations. ..."
Ali calls SETH a son of Adam - and so whom will SETH face on the day of Judgment? and who will bring him to account? and who will direct SETH to his habitation?...I am just wondering YAYM ?
When Mowlana Ali says I am the friend of Seth, you are taking it literally. When Mowlana Ali says the children of Adam, you are taking it literally. Do you really believe what you are saying? Are you implying that the previous Du'a was wrong, which Ismaili's were reciting for well over 500 years? As I suggested earlier, do some reading. Also, and this is important, think through your thoughts before you make them explicit. This advice will help you through your life if you can apply it.
I am not going to waste any more of my time debating with a child.
According to several Isma'ili sources, including the Ghat Pat Du'a of Pir Sadr al-Din, the Diwan of Fidai Khurasani, the Asas al-Ta'wil of Qadi al-Nu'man, the Wajh-i Din of Nasir-i Khusraw, the Ash-Shafiya of Abu Firas, etc...
The Imam and Wasi of Hazrat Adam was Mawlana Shith (Seth). There were even Imams before Hazrat Adam (the biblical Adam).
Imamat has always existed in the world.
There are Ginans, no longer recited today, known as the Gayatri, whcih list all the Imams since times immemorial.
The Imam and Wasi of Hazrat Adam was Mawlana Shith (Seth). There were even Imams before Hazrat Adam (the biblical Adam).
Imamat has always existed in the world.
There are Ginans, no longer recited today, known as the Gayatri, whcih list all the Imams since times immemorial.
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
According to several Isma'ili sources, including the Ghat Pat Du'a of Pir Sadr al-Din, the Diwan of Fidai Khurasani, the Asas al-Ta'wil of Qadi al-Nu'man, the Wajh-i Din of Nasir-i Khusraw, the Ash-Shafiya of Abu Firas, etc...
The Imam and Wasi of Hazrat Adam was Mawlana Shith (Seth). There were even Imams before Hazrat Adam (the biblical Adam).
Imamat has always existed in the world.
There are Ginans, no longer recited today, known as the Gayatri, whcih list all the Imams since times immemorial.
what is the difference between biblical adam[as] and adam[as] of holy quran ???
plus why are ginans like GAYATRI not recited in JK today ??
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YaAliYaMowla
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There are two Adams often referred to (in Qur'an as well, however not explicitly). There is Hazrat Adam (biblical Adam) who was the 'first' human being in this world. However, Hazrat Adam was not the first human being in the world, rather the first of a new era/time (in ginans this is called kal jug).
Second, there is Adam signifying a first living being of its kind. You might have heard the story of Mowlana Hussein, when a child, telling Salman Farsi that there have been 50,000 Adams. When Adam is used in this sense, it signifies the first being of its kind. Thus, the first living being in the universe is called Adam in the Qur'an.
Second, there is Adam signifying a first living being of its kind. You might have heard the story of Mowlana Hussein, when a child, telling Salman Farsi that there have been 50,000 Adams. When Adam is used in this sense, it signifies the first being of its kind. Thus, the first living being in the universe is called Adam in the Qur'an.
YAYM,
YAYM,
I am not trying to say that you are wrong ! all I am questioning at this point in time is whether all this is now essential to know and directly relevant to our own practice? You haven't explained why any reference to "Imam" SETH was dropped from our present Du'a ? was it not relevant enough to be retained? or was it considered "redundant" ?
We are currently beholding, within our own self- consciousness, and within our own thoughts, only what is directly relevant to us in the present era/time ?.....
Our present world is our mind and our mind beholds what is tangible to it and so within this framework, to us this Universe is an idea and yet it's existence is based on a truth or foundation of some fundamental power that we are able to relate to and whose laws control the functioning of our madhab... this power is connected to us through the present Imam....now what is the point to then go so much beyond in time and debate over it endlessly if connecting to the presnt Nur e Imamah connects us to all others in the past also ?
All objects are the creation of our mind and the variety , forms in the present are "rooted' in our thinking and so this thinking should be within the framework of the present era , time and age and based on the constructive thoughts in the present and not of the past....
Why do we have an Imam of the age and time ? what is the point then to have hereditary Imams? do we all worry as much about our great grandfathers or ancestors? when I die which imam will stand up for me ? so with whom can one create or should create a relativity ?
You may talk of Imam SETH and other past lineage...but we can only go to sleep with our own awareness of the now as we do not have to be aware of anything else or what is directly not relevant to us
The Prophet told us to hold to the Quran and the Imam of the time...(The TWO weighty things )...he never told us to worry about anything else...
YAYM,
I am not trying to say that you are wrong ! all I am questioning at this point in time is whether all this is now essential to know and directly relevant to our own practice? You haven't explained why any reference to "Imam" SETH was dropped from our present Du'a ? was it not relevant enough to be retained? or was it considered "redundant" ?
We are currently beholding, within our own self- consciousness, and within our own thoughts, only what is directly relevant to us in the present era/time ?.....
Our present world is our mind and our mind beholds what is tangible to it and so within this framework, to us this Universe is an idea and yet it's existence is based on a truth or foundation of some fundamental power that we are able to relate to and whose laws control the functioning of our madhab... this power is connected to us through the present Imam....now what is the point to then go so much beyond in time and debate over it endlessly if connecting to the presnt Nur e Imamah connects us to all others in the past also ?
All objects are the creation of our mind and the variety , forms in the present are "rooted' in our thinking and so this thinking should be within the framework of the present era , time and age and based on the constructive thoughts in the present and not of the past....
Why do we have an Imam of the age and time ? what is the point then to have hereditary Imams? do we all worry as much about our great grandfathers or ancestors? when I die which imam will stand up for me ? so with whom can one create or should create a relativity ?
You may talk of Imam SETH and other past lineage...but we can only go to sleep with our own awareness of the now as we do not have to be aware of anything else or what is directly not relevant to us
The Prophet told us to hold to the Quran and the Imam of the time...(The TWO weighty things )...he never told us to worry about anything else...
YAYM,
As far as I believe, we are not just an esoteric faith, if you will...most of what we do in JKs is part of our Sharia ! We have four levels - not just one ! I do not see any reason why we cannot also talk literally? where does it say we cannot ? i may be a "child" - perhaps not ! infact i doubt if you have any clue about the quran itself....do you want to test your knowledge on the quran instead of talking about some Imam of the past? then only we can judge who is a child here?
As far as I believe, we are not just an esoteric faith, if you will...most of what we do in JKs is part of our Sharia ! We have four levels - not just one ! I do not see any reason why we cannot also talk literally? where does it say we cannot ? i may be a "child" - perhaps not ! infact i doubt if you have any clue about the quran itself....do you want to test your knowledge on the quran instead of talking about some Imam of the past? then only we can judge who is a child here?
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YaAliYaMowla
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As I mentioned earlier, read through some books, beyond just Uthman's Qur'an, and when you're all grown up then we can discuss further. I have nothing to prove to someone who understands so little of our faith.znanwalla wrote:YAYM,
As far as I believe, we are not just an esoteric faith, if you will...most of what we do in JKs is part of our Sharia ! We have four levels - not just one ! I do not see any reason why we cannot also talk literally? where does it say we cannot ? i may be a "child" - perhaps not ! infact i doubt if you have any clue about the quran itself....do you want to test your knowledge on the quran instead of talking about some Imam of the past? then only we can judge who is a child here?
YAYM,
Frankly is there anything you can now prove TO ANYONE OTHER THAN YOURSELF ? in recent times the Imam of the time and age (not Imam SETH ofcourse) said that you learn the quran; learn the Du'a with their meanings and learn our history....and you are still living in the medieval medieval past IN SOME STATE OF DELUSION thinking you are some kind of an instrument of the divine because you can talk a bit about who SETH was and that too based on a speculative and unproven theory of your own....anyone who makes "distinctions' amongst the Imams in physical terms, is an idol worshipper...I hope someone explained this to you....check Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah's Firman...primary reason why don't do "matam" ! Imam Husayn is alive spiritually !
So do you do matam? actually a person like you should as you are still clinging to Imam SETH of the Adam era and so doing matam is ideal for you.......if I am reading Uthman's quran, whose book are you reading then? Imam Seth's?
Give any text or narration to the Imam of the time and age and when he holds it in his hands and kisses it, it becomes complete !!!! Allah has encompassed everything in the MANIFEST IMAM !!!....MANIFEST MEANS APPARENT ! Hold fast to the TWO weighty things ! One in hand is better than even Two in the bush, if you know what I mean....we live in a tangible world....lets discuss based on tangibility.....no fairy tales !
Frankly is there anything you can now prove TO ANYONE OTHER THAN YOURSELF ? in recent times the Imam of the time and age (not Imam SETH ofcourse) said that you learn the quran; learn the Du'a with their meanings and learn our history....and you are still living in the medieval medieval past IN SOME STATE OF DELUSION thinking you are some kind of an instrument of the divine because you can talk a bit about who SETH was and that too based on a speculative and unproven theory of your own....anyone who makes "distinctions' amongst the Imams in physical terms, is an idol worshipper...I hope someone explained this to you....check Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah's Firman...primary reason why don't do "matam" ! Imam Husayn is alive spiritually !
So do you do matam? actually a person like you should as you are still clinging to Imam SETH of the Adam era and so doing matam is ideal for you.......if I am reading Uthman's quran, whose book are you reading then? Imam Seth's?
Give any text or narration to the Imam of the time and age and when he holds it in his hands and kisses it, it becomes complete !!!! Allah has encompassed everything in the MANIFEST IMAM !!!....MANIFEST MEANS APPARENT ! Hold fast to the TWO weighty things ! One in hand is better than even Two in the bush, if you know what I mean....we live in a tangible world....lets discuss based on tangibility.....no fairy tales !
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shiraz.virani
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"...are you saying that the holy quran is a fairy tale..." ?
Lo ! why would I then insist that WE hold onto the TWO weighty and precious things?
Kindly read my posts and you will know what are "fairy tales" to me....
Here this should clarify ...hopfully !!!!
"....We are currently beholding, within our own self- consciousness, and within our own thoughts, only what is directly relevant to us in the present era/time ?.....
Our present world is our mind and our mind beholds what is tangible to it and so within this framework, to us this Universe is an idea and yet it's existence is based on a truth or foundation of some fundamental power that we are able to relate to and whose laws control the functioning of our madhab... this power is connected to us through the present Imam....now what is the point to then go so much beyond in time and debate over it endlessly if connecting to the presnt Nur e Imamah connects us to all others in the past also ?
All objects are the creation of our mind and the variety , forms in the present are "rooted' in our thinking and so this thinking should be within the framework of the present era , time and age and based on the constructive thoughts in the present and not of the past....
Why do we have an Imam of the age and time ? what is the point then to have hereditary Imams? do we all worry as much about our great grandfathers or ancestors? when I die which imam will stand up for me ? so with whom can one create or should create a relativity ?
You may talk of Imam SETH and other past lineage...but we can only go to sleep with our own awareness of the now as we do not have to be aware of anything else or what is directly not relevant to us
The Prophet told us to hold to the Quran and the Imam of the time...(The TWO weighty things )...he never told us to worry about anything else..."
Lo ! why would I then insist that WE hold onto the TWO weighty and precious things?
Kindly read my posts and you will know what are "fairy tales" to me....
Here this should clarify ...hopfully !!!!
"....We are currently beholding, within our own self- consciousness, and within our own thoughts, only what is directly relevant to us in the present era/time ?.....
Our present world is our mind and our mind beholds what is tangible to it and so within this framework, to us this Universe is an idea and yet it's existence is based on a truth or foundation of some fundamental power that we are able to relate to and whose laws control the functioning of our madhab... this power is connected to us through the present Imam....now what is the point to then go so much beyond in time and debate over it endlessly if connecting to the presnt Nur e Imamah connects us to all others in the past also ?
All objects are the creation of our mind and the variety , forms in the present are "rooted' in our thinking and so this thinking should be within the framework of the present era , time and age and based on the constructive thoughts in the present and not of the past....
Why do we have an Imam of the age and time ? what is the point then to have hereditary Imams? do we all worry as much about our great grandfathers or ancestors? when I die which imam will stand up for me ? so with whom can one create or should create a relativity ?
You may talk of Imam SETH and other past lineage...but we can only go to sleep with our own awareness of the now as we do not have to be aware of anything else or what is directly not relevant to us
The Prophet told us to hold to the Quran and the Imam of the time...(The TWO weighty things )...he never told us to worry about anything else..."
Man, your dose is relatively smaller but ten thousand times more lethal than nanwalla’s…even an African Wild Elephant won’t stand up for days after getting it…YaAliYaMowla wrote:You identify based on the preamble, fine. However, what came before Islam? Which Islam are you speaking of? Is it the Islam that was brought by Prophet Muhammad (SAWS)? If so, there is certainly a preamble to that. As I have said earlier, the Imam has existed in zaheri form for long before what you would call 'Islam' today was established. This is why I am Imami first. I identify first with the path that is the only one on Sirat al-Mustaqeem.InquisitiveGirl wrote:tariqa is a way of doing something.
the way I define tariqa, in our context, is a "way of practicing religion." Hence, a way of practicing Islam.
Since a preamble is required in order to define tariqa, that is why I identify religion first.
As the Prophet (SAWS) said in hadith, there will be 73 sects in Islam, 72 of which will be destined for hell fire. You do not need to interpret it literally, however there is meaning to be derived from it.
Ask any Muslim and they will say it’s their sect that is going to heaven…and rest will burn in hellfire…LOL
If you identify yourself with Imami or Ismaili to 99% of the world population…they will be like…what? What is that? …or What’re you talkin’ about?
Are you guys mystified or intimidated or something with the term “ Sirat al-Mustaqeem”…?
I think, it just means the ‘right path’…just the opposite of the wrong or bad path, you know. for example, thou shall not kill …or thou shall not hump your neighbor’s wife…got it?
Biryani,
which flavour do you eat pal? is it chicken or goat meat?
What is sirat?....it is thinner than a hair and sharper than a sword ! all have to cross it - you are not exempted.
The unfortunate ones will fall...had this path been only one, then Allah in HIS book would NOT have mentioned in Sura al hamd and commanded US all to remember HIM so that he can show us this Right Path and HE says clearly that we all pray and we actually do..."Guide US to the Right path(al sirat al mustaqeem) (1:5).
Now since HE has directed us then isn't this sufficient proof that (a) there is not only one path and (b) the path that is not straight but crooked is one which is other than the one leading to God? If God had made just one path on which we all had to traverse, would HE have commanded us this prayer?
"The path of those upon whom thou has bestowed favours....wow ! and then ..."NOT of those Cursed Ones ! wow again !...Nor of those who have gone astray...!!!!!
So who have gone astray? you figure that out...
There is nothing "lethal" in what is being said ...it is only a logical conclusion....but I suppose "good' muslims are exempt from using their logic....they say the prayer but do not know what they are praying in reality and faith has not entered their hearts....the straight path is the way of those upon whom Allah bestowed favours....and they are the nabiyyin and they are the Siddiqin and they are the Shuhada and they are the Salihin....
And you are holding onto pebbles and then complaining when we are showing you we have the pearls....now those who love pebbles will be pebbles on the day of judgment...those who love the path of those on whom Allah has bestowed HIs favours, will obviously be with them...it is so simple...what is so complex about it? islam is such a simple and straight forward religion....
which flavour do you eat pal? is it chicken or goat meat?
What is sirat?....it is thinner than a hair and sharper than a sword ! all have to cross it - you are not exempted.
The unfortunate ones will fall...had this path been only one, then Allah in HIS book would NOT have mentioned in Sura al hamd and commanded US all to remember HIM so that he can show us this Right Path and HE says clearly that we all pray and we actually do..."Guide US to the Right path(al sirat al mustaqeem) (1:5).
Now since HE has directed us then isn't this sufficient proof that (a) there is not only one path and (b) the path that is not straight but crooked is one which is other than the one leading to God? If God had made just one path on which we all had to traverse, would HE have commanded us this prayer?
"The path of those upon whom thou has bestowed favours....wow ! and then ..."NOT of those Cursed Ones ! wow again !...Nor of those who have gone astray...!!!!!
So who have gone astray? you figure that out...
There is nothing "lethal" in what is being said ...it is only a logical conclusion....but I suppose "good' muslims are exempt from using their logic....they say the prayer but do not know what they are praying in reality and faith has not entered their hearts....the straight path is the way of those upon whom Allah bestowed favours....and they are the nabiyyin and they are the Siddiqin and they are the Shuhada and they are the Salihin....
And you are holding onto pebbles and then complaining when we are showing you we have the pearls....now those who love pebbles will be pebbles on the day of judgment...those who love the path of those on whom Allah has bestowed HIs favours, will obviously be with them...it is so simple...what is so complex about it? islam is such a simple and straight forward religion....
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YaAliYaMowla
- Posts: 57
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I would suggest reading the entire post before replying. I said: "You do not need to interpret it literally, however there is meaning to be derived from it."Biryani wrote:Man, your dose is relatively smaller but ten thousand times more lethal than nanwalla’s…even an African Wild Elephant won’t stand up for days after getting it…YaAliYaMowla wrote:You identify based on the preamble, fine. However, what came before Islam? Which Islam are you speaking of? Is it the Islam that was brought by Prophet Muhammad (SAWS)? If so, there is certainly a preamble to that. As I have said earlier, the Imam has existed in zaheri form for long before what you would call 'Islam' today was established. This is why I am Imami first. I identify first with the path that is the only one on Sirat al-Mustaqeem.InquisitiveGirl wrote:tariqa is a way of doing something.
the way I define tariqa, in our context, is a "way of practicing religion." Hence, a way of practicing Islam.
Since a preamble is required in order to define tariqa, that is why I identify religion first.
As the Prophet (SAWS) said in hadith, there will be 73 sects in Islam, 72 of which will be destined for hell fire. You do not need to interpret it literally, however there is meaning to be derived from it.
Ask any Muslim and they will say it’s their sect that is going to heaven…and rest will burn in hellfire…LOL
If you identify yourself with Imami or Ismaili to 99% of the world population…they will be like…what? What is that? …or What’re you talkin’ about?
Are you guys mystified or intimidated or something with the term “ Sirat al-Mustaqeem”…?
I think, it just means the ‘right path’…just the opposite of the wrong or bad path, you know. for example, thou shall not kill …or thou shall not hump your neighbor’s wife…got it?
I do not interpret it literally because I do not believe that every non-Isma'ili is destined for hell fire. However, there is meaning to be derived from this hadith of the Prophet (SAWS). Get it?
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star_munir
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As you said "Just being, an ismaili is nothing significant to me"...It has indeed great significance. The matter is whether you realize it or not.Biryani wrote:Agakhani,
I don’t feel proud just because I am an Ismaili Muslim, I would be proud if, first, I become a better Human Being then a better Ismaili Muslim. Just being, as in Identity, an Ismaili is nothing significant to me. I see lot of my Christian and Hindu friends who are like angels and saints and some of our Ismailies just blow my mind off…
I agree with you that there are many Non Ismaili muslims and non muslims who are good human being and many ismailis who may not be ...
But being Ismaili is matter of great significance because you have a living Imam with you to guide you and to bless you. Daily if you go jamat khana with pure heart you get countless blessings. There are many farmans of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah on importance of Ismaili tariqah.
So all should be always thankful for being an Ismaili and always pray for salamati of Iman.
I said “Just being, as in Identity, an Ismaili is nothing significant to me.”
What I meant to say is that, for me, being an Ismaili, just to identify myself is not important if I am not a better person in the first place … so “Ismaili identification” is not as much “prioritized” as being and identified as a better human being…
Because, character wise, I consider myself and lots of other ismailies much below than what I or anybody else could be or wish to be at. it actually could be even worse as if we identify ourselves as Ismaili Muslims but are actually with less than average character. Following the Ismaili Tariqah, since I am an Ismaili Muslim, comes secondary… or it may be considered a part of being a better human being altogether in any ismaili’s life….depending on how you look at it.
What I meant to say is that, for me, being an Ismaili, just to identify myself is not important if I am not a better person in the first place … so “Ismaili identification” is not as much “prioritized” as being and identified as a better human being…
Because, character wise, I consider myself and lots of other ismailies much below than what I or anybody else could be or wish to be at. it actually could be even worse as if we identify ourselves as Ismaili Muslims but are actually with less than average character. Following the Ismaili Tariqah, since I am an Ismaili Muslim, comes secondary… or it may be considered a part of being a better human being altogether in any ismaili’s life….depending on how you look at it.
I did read the whole post…YaAliYaMowla wrote: I would suggest reading the entire post before replying. I said: "You do not need to interpret it literally, however there is meaning to be derived from it."
I do not interpret it literally because I do not believe that every non-Isma'ili is destined for hell fire. However, there is meaning to be derived from this hadith of the Prophet (SAWS). Get it?
First, what is the definition of “Hell”? I think, it varies and depending upon the context of the talk…
Also, what’s the source of that Hadith and how authenticate it is and what was said before or after it and the circumstances around it? I think all that would matter to build the context of the said hadith and correctly interpret it.
I am probably not comfortable with the interpretation that I or general population will derive from it…so what’s your interpretation of it?
Actually Biryani, the balls are in the air ! even the translations and the narrations of the TEXTS you are waving at the world is suspect...some of you love to sweep what does not suit your cult, under the carpet...and then pick and choose what suits you ...can you please tell me and I will really appreciate if you will...."if Allah perfected Islam as early as Sura al Ma'ida, then what was the need for HIM to send 109 additional suras?.."
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YaAliYaMowla
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Nanwalla, I will try to look into that and try to understand myself and explain my thought on it if I can sometimes week after next…school’s finals are starting tomorrow and I will be really busy for a week…
By the way, picking and choosing (interpretation) what suits best depending upon time is what’s really about Islam in some extent…ain’t it?
Bye.
By the way, picking and choosing (interpretation) what suits best depending upon time is what’s really about Islam in some extent…ain’t it?
Bye.
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YaAliYaMowla
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- Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:43 pm
To my knowledge, most hadith scholars have deemed it authentic including al-Tirmidhi. I do not remember reading it in Sahih al-Bukhari though..Biryani wrote:I did read the whole post…YaAliYaMowla wrote: I would suggest reading the entire post before replying. I said: "You do not need to interpret it literally, however there is meaning to be derived from it."
I do not interpret it literally because I do not believe that every non-Isma'ili is destined for hell fire. However, there is meaning to be derived from this hadith of the Prophet (SAWS). Get it?
First, what is the definition of “Hell”? I think, it varies and depending upon the context of the talk…
Also, what’s the source of that Hadith and how authenticate it is and what was said before or after it and the circumstances around it? I think all that would matter to build the context of the said hadith and correctly interpret it.
I am probably not comfortable with the interpretation that I or general population will derive from it…so what’s your interpretation of it?
My interpretation of hell is coming back to this world. I have heard Abu Aly Missionary say that it is in ginans that when a child is in the mothers womb, they are hanging upside down, this is because they are already paying for the sins of their previous life. Thus, I believe that non-Ismailis continue to come back into this world until they become Ismaili. I interpret this from ginans and it is more explicitly stated in a book called Haft Bab by Abu Ishaq Quhistani, a persian Isma'ili source. This is my belief and I acknowledge that I may not be right in my interpretation.
This is really a whole other topic though.
YAYM..."The Suras are in the wrong order. So are most of the ayats. This should be evidenced by 5:3 and 5:67 being in reversed order, when they should be the other way around and much closer to each other...."
Just the chronological order is flawed or is there much more to it ? and what the abrogation theory where they are trying to abrogate certain ayats....so who decides this and on what basis now if the chronoligical order is incorrect....how can they for sure know which ayats to abrogate and in any case who gives them such an authority now? and then Virani is arguing incessantly when the entire world knows about these flaws?
That is why a Living Imam is important ! and that is why the prophet did say hold onto to BOTH....this is a logical conclusion....not a biased one !
Just the chronological order is flawed or is there much more to it ? and what the abrogation theory where they are trying to abrogate certain ayats....so who decides this and on what basis now if the chronoligical order is incorrect....how can they for sure know which ayats to abrogate and in any case who gives them such an authority now? and then Virani is arguing incessantly when the entire world knows about these flaws?
That is why a Living Imam is important ! and that is why the prophet did say hold onto to BOTH....this is a logical conclusion....not a biased one !
"...By the way, picking and choosing (interpretation) what suits best depending upon time is what’s really about Islam in some extent…ain’t it?..."
Yes! as they follow the islam of the Shaikeen - not of the Prophet of Islam and they have abandoned the wise ones....so obviously they will do this ! Truly unfortunate....
Yes! as they follow the islam of the Shaikeen - not of the Prophet of Islam and they have abandoned the wise ones....so obviously they will do this ! Truly unfortunate....
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YaAliYaMowla
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 1:43 pm
There is some degree of evidence that ayats were changed. There is a source, I cannot remember from where, that Mowlana Jafar al-Sadiq had said that an ayat was changed from 'Ali' to 'Allah'.znanwalla wrote:YAYM..."The Suras are in the wrong order. So are most of the ayats. This should be evidenced by 5:3 and 5:67 being in reversed order, when they should be the other way around and much closer to each other...."
Just the chronological order is flawed or is there much more to it ? and what the abrogation theory where they are trying to abrogate certain ayats....so who decides this and on what basis now if the chronoligical order is incorrect....how can they for sure know which ayats to abrogate and in any case who gives them such an authority now? and then Virani is arguing incessantly when the entire world knows about these flaws?
That is why a Living Imam is important ! and that is why the prophet did say hold onto to BOTH....this is a logical conclusion....not a biased one !
According to both sunni and shi'a sources, Mowlana Ali had a complete Qur'an in the exact chronological order and with commentary related to each ayat, its specific context. This was rejected by Abu Bakr, and Mowlana Ali said that we will never see this Qur'an until the Day of Judgement (or Resurrection cant remember..). This is why I believe that the Prophet said that "they shall not split until they meet me at the hawd". I strongly believe that Hazir Imam has this Qur'an that was compiled by Mowlana Ali.
The current Qur'an was not actually compiled until 23 (i think..) years after the Prophet's (SAWS) death. The ones that were previous to that were burned by Uthman, even according to sunni sources (al-Bukhari).
I believe that the Qur'an is important however we must look to Hazir Imam to interpret it for us. To understand a regular textbook that has had all of its sentences re-ordered substantially would be difficult itself to understand. Something as complicated and allegorical as the Qur'an is even more difficult to understand when re-ordered. This is why there are ginans which are the tafsir of the Qur'an (as per Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah).
YaAliYaMowla wrote:To my knowledge, most hadith scholars have deemed it authentic including al-Tirmidhi. I do not remember reading it in Sahih al-Bukhari though..Biryani wrote:I did read the whole post…YaAliYaMowla wrote: I would suggest reading the entire post before replying. I said: "You do not need to interpret it literally, however there is meaning to be derived from it."
I do not interpret it literally because I do not believe that every non-Isma'ili is destined for hell fire. However, there is meaning to be derived from this hadith of the Prophet (SAWS). Get it?
First, what is the definition of “Hell”? I think, it varies and depending upon the context of the talk…
Also, what’s the source of that Hadith and how authenticate it is and what was said before or after it and the circumstances around it? I think all that would matter to build the context of the said hadith and correctly interpret it.
I am probably not comfortable with the interpretation that I or general population will derive from it…so what’s your interpretation of it?
My interpretation of hell is coming back to this world. I have heard Abu Aly Missionary say that it is in ginans that when a child is in the mothers womb, they are hanging upside down, this is because they are already paying for the sins of their previous life. Thus, I believe that non-Ismailis continue to come back into this world until they become Ismaili. I interpret this from ginans and it is more explicitly stated in a book called Haft Bab by Abu Ishaq Quhistani, a persian Isma'ili source. This is my belief and I acknowledge that I may not be right in my interpretation.
This is really a whole other topic though.
To the best of my recollection Imam SMS farman states
"Aa duniya jahnum cche" which translates into "This world is Hell"
But then He has also said that life is an exalted destiny.
I think of this earth as spiritual rehab. It is not all fun and games.
If we succeed in the detox and rehabilitation of our souls then we have achieved that exalted destiny.
Thank you for reading my ramblings.
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arshad1988
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Wow, someone is back after a long delay. What happened to you?shamsu wrote: To the best of my recollection Imam SMS farman states
"Aa duniya jahnum cche" which translates into "This world is Hell"
But then He has also said that life is an exalted destiny.
I think of this earth as spiritual rehab. It is not all fun and games.
If we succeed in the detox and rehabilitation of our souls then we have achieved that exalted destiny.
Thank you for reading my ramblings.
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arshad1988
- Posts: 159
- Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2007 2:02 am
- Contact:
why don't you BUTT out! mind YOUR own business. I was talking to shamsu, where did YOU come from? no one wants to hear from you anymore, so just take your negativity out of here if you don't have anything positive, or at least worthy to say, instead of your bickering.znanwalla wrote:why? did you miss him? or are you provoking him? is it any of your business where he was ?