People ask me this question (mainly about Hazar Imam Vs. Pope) and I never have an answer.
So basically my question is:
Can someone lay out real flat what the difference between Hazar Imam and the Pope is?
How was the Pope originated? Does he claim to have any spiritual powers?
Also since the Pope does not descend directly from any Prophet by blood, would it be wrong to say that he is like the notion of Pir?
Since Pir is not from the Prophet or Imam's family... although Prophet Muhammed and Hazrat Hassan were, but then suddenly they began to be chosen from random people.
But anyway, if someone could explain this, it would be nice
I think MHI himself explains the difference in a better way in one of the interviews as follows:
Paris Match: Your Highness, 49th Imam, descendant of Prophet Mohammed, you are the spiritual leader of the Ismailis, a Shia movement of 15 million Muslims. Could we say that you are their pope?
His Highness the Aga Khan: My role as Imam has nothing in common with that of John Paul II, because the pope is elected by a college of cardinals, while the office of the Imam of the Ismailis is a hereditary one. In Islam, contrary to the Catholic Church, there is no clergy in the sense of people having an exclusively religious career. In contrast with the Christian tradition, Islam does not separate the temporal from the spiritual. My duty, in following the example of my predecessors, is to guide the Ismailis, not only in the present time, but also in the daily practice of Shia Islam. This requires me to analyze their level of existence in liaison with their geographic location. The Imams have always had the overall responsibility of living within their time and therefore, before anything else, adapting.
The office of the Pope evolved with the institutionalization of Christianity. Papacy was concieved as the highest position within the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. The Popes are like channels of God's grace by virtue of holding the supreme position and functioning in that role. By themselves they do not have any spiritual powers.
The Pirs are always appointed from the descendants of the Imams.
What about the Khalif of the Ahmadiyya sect? They claim to be the "second manifestation of Allah"... I don't understand their concept of the "Promised Messiah"
Also, you are telling me that the Pir is ALWAYS from the same family as the Imam and this has always been the case from the very beginning?
s786 wrote:What about the Khalif of the Ahmadiyya sect? They claim to be the "second manifestation of Allah"... I don't understand their concept of the "Promised Messiah"?
These kind of beliefs are common among sects that are based on a personality including the Sufi Tariqahs. Sai Baba's disciples consider him as an avataar. In my opinion it is just a matter of glorification rather than any instrinsic merit of the persons.
s786 wrote:
Also, you are telling me that the Pir is ALWAYS from the same family as the Imam and this has always been the case from the very beginning?
Yes. They would be descendants of any Imams. You may want to read Alwaez Abually's book "A Brief History of Ismailism". It contains concise histories of both the Imams and Pirs. It also has a diagram of the geneology of the Pirs.
Hazir Imam Said
"The Pope is elected, the Imam is not elected by the ismailis, the pope does not hold a hereditary position, the Imam does not have an ambassadorial service as the Papacy does."
[Radio Times of Kenya October 14, 1959]
"My role as Imam has nothing in common with that of John Paul 2
because the Pope is elected by a college of cardinals while the office of thr Imam of the ismailis is a hereditary one."
[15 December 1994]
The Pope claims to be the the successor of the Apostle St. Simon Peter - whom Catholics claim was entrusted by Jesus with "the keys of Heaven and Earth".
The Pope derives his authority from the College of Cardinals - this is made to resemble an Apostlistic Authority.
The Pope does claim to be infallible in matters of Church doctrine.
As for the Pir (Imam Mustawda), the Pir always comes from the family of the Imam, as in the Pir is always a descendant of Ali.
Sometimes, the Imam holds Piratan for himself....like Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and Imam Shah Karim.
The Pir is always appointed by the Imam of the Time.
Both the Imam and the Pir claim spiritual authority and claim to possess the Light of Ali and the Light of Muhammad.
When people refer to Hazar Imam as a "guide" are they referring to what they see in him as a "Pir"... since his responsibility is that of Imam and Pir.
Would it be wrong to say that the Pir is the "guide" to the Imam (God)?
When people refer to Hazar Imam as a "guide" are they referring to what they see in him as a "Pir"... since his responsibility is that of Imam and Pir.
Would it be wrong to say that the Pir is the "guide" to the Imam (God)?
Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah from the "Memoirs of Agakhan":
"I shall try, to give in a small compass a clear survey of the fundamentals of Islam, by which I mean those principles, those articles of faith, and that way of life, all of which are universally accepted among all Muslim sects. First therefore, I shall propound those Islamic tenets which are held in common by the larger community of Sunnis, and by Shias as well...
First it must be understood that, though these fundamental ideals are universally accepted by Muslims, there does not exist in Islam and there has never existed any source of absolute authority; we have no Papal Encyclical to propound and sanction a dogma, such as Roman Catholics possess, and no Thirty-nine Articles like those which state the doctrinal position of the Church of England. The prophet Mohammed had two sources of authority, one religious which was the essential one of his life, and the other secular which, by the circumstances and accidents of his career, became joined to his essential and Divinely inspired authority in religion."
Also to illustrate the relative importance of the Pope from spiritual status point of view, the following anecdote though conceived as a joke, makes the point.
A Priest's Job Promotion
A Catholic priest and a rabbi were chatting one day when the conversation turned to a discussion of job descriptions and promotions.
"What do you have to look forward to in terms of being promoted?" asked the rabbi.
"Well, I'm next in line for the Monsignor's job," replied the priest.
"Yes, and then what?" asked the rabbi.
"Well, next I can become a bishop."
"Yes, and then?"
"If I work real hard and do a good job as bishop, it's possible for me to become an archbishop."
"OK, then what?"
Exasperated, the priest replied, "With some luck and real hard work, maybe I can become a cardinal."
"And then?"
Growing angry, the priest responded, "Well, with lots and lots of luck and some real difficult work, if I'm in the right places at the right times and play my political games just right, maybe, just maybe, I can get elected Pope."
"Yes, and then what?"
"Good grief!" shouted the priest. "What do you expect me to become, GOD?"
"Well," responded the rabbi, "One of our boys made it!"
The Pope claims to be the the successor of the Apostle St. Simon Peter - whom Catholics claim was entrusted by Jesus with "the keys of Heaven and Earth".
The Pope derives his authority from the College of Cardinals - this is made to resemble an Apostlistic Authority.
The Pope does claim to be infallible in matters of Church doctrine.
As for the Pir (Imam Mustawda), the Pir always comes from the family of the Imam, as in the Pir is always a descendant of Ali.
Sometimes, the Imam holds Piratan for himself....like Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and Imam Shah Karim.
The Pir is always appointed by the Imam of the Time.
Both the Imam and the Pir claim spiritual authority and claim to possess the Light of Ali and the Light of Muhammad.
Ironically enough...Simon Peter was the Imam of the Time with Jesus.
When people refer to Hazar Imam as a "guide" are they referring to what they see in him as a "Pir"... since his responsibility is that of Imam and Pir.
Would it be wrong to say that the Pir is the "guide" to the Imam (God)?"
Yes, thats certainly a way to see.
I also see it as follows:
Pir (Universal Soul) is the Guide (Murshid) of the Murid (individual soul) to the Imam (Universal Intellect).
In another sense, Imam can also be seen as a Guide.
Is it ironic that the Pope claims to be the sucessor of St. Peter (aka Simon Peter) the Imam during Jesus' time. We know that Hazar Imam is actually the successor of Simon Peter, so technically he is the rightful Pope.
Was Pir Sabzali a blood relative of the Imam? I know if we trace our roots back then we all are "blood relatives" of the Imam through Adam. He was, however, given the title after his death - he could have reached that status then, becoming one with god. Please provide me with further information abour Pir Subzali, if you have it available.
