ANTI GINAN BOOK AMONG ISMAILIS

[star_munir]

THIS BOOK IS NOW VERY COMMON AND THE NAME OF BOOK IS A SHORT HISTORY OF ISMAILIS .AUTHOR IS FARHAD DAFTARY,A NON ISMALI AND HE IS HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF ACADEMIC RESEARCH AND PUBLICATIONS AT THE INSTITUTE OF ISMALIS STUDIES LONDON.THERE ARE MANY HSTORICAL MISTAKES TOO.I HAVE JUST READ FEW PAGES FROM THIS BOOK ANF FOUND LOT OF MISTAKES.IF YOU WILL READ YOU WILL FIND THE FACT THAT AUTHOR IS TRYING TO MAKE ISMAILIS BELIEVE THAT GINANS ARE WRONG
1) ON PG 177 IT IS WRITTEN THAT GINANS WERE TRANSMITTED ORALLY FOR SEVERAL CENTURIES BEFORE THEY WERE RECORDED.ACCORDING TO NOOR-E-MUBIN [THE BEST HISTORY BOOK OF ISMAILI EVER WRITTEN]GARBIS OF PIR SHAMS WERE RECORDED BY PANDITS
2)PG 178 1 PARAGRAPH SECOND LINE ......DAIS WERE CALLED PIR IN SUBCONTINENT .
THERE IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DAIS AND PIR.HAZIR IMAM IS ALSO PIR BUT NOT A DAI SIMILARLY SYED IMAM SHAH WAS DAI NOT PIR.
3) IT IS ALSO WRITTEN ON THE SAME PAGE THAT GINANS ARE UNRELIABLE

[star_munir]

IN KARACHI ONCE IMAM SULTAN MOHAMMAD SHAH ASKED THE LEADERS THAT IF IF I AM GIVING DIDAR AND GINAN IS RECITED AT SAME TIME THAN TOWARDS WHOM JAMAT MUST PAY ATTENTION?LEADERS SAID TOWRDS YOU.IMAM SAID JAB TAK GINAN BOLA JA RAHA HO JAMAT KO CHAHIYE KEY GINAN MAI DHIAN RAKHAI KIYU KEY GINAN KEY ZARIYEY TUM KO HAMARI SHANKHT MILI HAI.
THIS IS THE IMPORTANCE OF GINAN AND THERE ARE MANY FARMANS OF IMAM SULTAN MOHAMMAD SHAH AND HAZIR IMAM ABOUT IMPORTANCE OF GINANS BUT THE AUTHOR SAID THAT GINANS ARE NOT RELIABLE.
4) WORDS LIKE MYTHOLOGY AND LEGENDARY ARE USED FOR GINANS WHICH MEANS STORY OF IMAGINARY PEOPLE WHICH IS IMPROPER AND WRONG
5) ANOTHER ANTI ISMAILI LINE ON PAGE 178 LAST PARAGRAPH PIR SHAMS IS AN AN OBSCURE MISSIONARY CLOUDED IN NUMEROUS LEGENDS.
MY QUSTION IS ARE THE MIRACLES JUST THE FALSE STORY?IF YOU BELIVE SO THAN IT MEANS YOU HAVE NO FAITH .HAZIR IMAM ALSO PERFORMS MIRACLE SO MIRACLES ARE NOT FALSE STORIES BUT THE TRUTH

[roxy]

THIS BOOK IS NOW VERY COMMON AND THE NAME OF BOOK IS A SHORT HISTORY OF ISMAILIS .AUTHOR IS FARHAD DAFTARY,A NON ISMALI AND HE IS HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF ACADEMIS RESEARCH AND PUBLICATIONS AT THE INSTITUTE OF ISMALIS STUDIES LONDON.THERE ARE MANY HSTORICAL MISTAKES TOO.I HAVE JUST RED FEW PAGES FROM THIS BOOK ANF FOUND LOT OF MISTAKES.IF YOU WILL READ YOU WILL FIND THE FACT THAT AUTHOR IS TRYING TO MAKE ISMAILIS BELIEVE THAT GINANS ARE WRONG.i AM WRITIN ONLY FEW POINTS HERE NOW AND WILL WRITE OTHER TOMMOROW OR LATER
1 ON PG 177 IT IS WRITTEN THAT GINANS WERE TRANSMITTED ORALLY FOR SEVERAL CENTURIES BEFORE THEY WERE RECORDED.ACCORDING TO NOOR-E-MUBIN [THE BEST HISTORY BOOK OF ISMAILI EVER WRITTEN]GARBIS OF PIR SHAMS WERE RECORDED BY PANDITS
2PG 178 1 PARAGRAPH SECOND LINE ......DAIS WERE CALLED PIR IN SUBCONTINENT .
THERE IS DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DAIS AND PIR.HAZIR IMAM IS ALSO PIR BUT NOT A DAI SIMILARLY SYED IMAM SHAH WAS DAI NOT PIR.
3 IT IS ALSO WRITTEN ON THE SAME PAGE THAT GINANS ARE UNRELIABLE

You mention:
THIS BOOK IS NOW VERY COMMON AND THE NAME OF BOOK IS A SHORT HISTORY OF ISMAILIS .AUTHOR IS FARHAD DAFTARY,A NON ISMALI AND HE IS HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF ACADEMIS RESEARCH AND PUBLICATIONS AT THE INSTITUTE OF ISMALIS STUDIES LONDON.

Sultan Mohd Shah mentioned that if you want to learn about your faith learn from an ismaili only - so noore mubin prevails, more so, since sultan mohd shah recommended noore mubin.

From history you can research and learn many things. It is also to be noted mawlana hazar imam farman is that perfection is allah's only there is no human perfection. So do not seek perfection from humans. BYE BYE for now.

[star_munir]

THIS BOOK IS ALTHOUGH PUBLISHED BY A NON ISMAILI BUT IN JAMATKHANA ANOUNCEMENT WAS MADE ABOUT THIS BOOK AND THE NOOR-E-MOBIN IS NOT AVAILABLE ALTHOUGH THERE IS FARMAN OF IMAM SULTAN MOHAMMAD SHAH TO READ THIS BOOK AND THS ANTI ISMAILI BOOK PUBLISHED BY OUR OWN INSTITUTION WHICH IS FULL OF MISTAKES IS AVAILABLE.
NOW I AM POINTING OUT SOME OTHER BIG MISTAKES AND WRONG CONCEPTS GIVEN IN THIS BOOK

AUTHOR IS TRYING HIS BEST TO MISLEAD IGNORANT ISMAILIS BY GIVING STATEMENTS SUCH AS ON PG 178 HE WRITES ABOUT PIR SHAMS THAT IN SOME OF THE MANY GINANS OF HIM QASM SHAH IS NAMED AS HS CONTEMPORARY IMAM ...... IN OTHER GINANS ACTIVITIES OF PIR SHAMS ARE PLACED SOME TWO CENTURIES EARLI
ER.

PIR SHAMS WAS PIR AT THE TIME OF IMAM QASIM SHAH ACCORDING TO ALL HIS GINANS AND NOOR-E-MUBIN.AUTHOR S MISLEADING

A BIG HISTORICAL MISTAKE ON PAGE 178 LAST PARAGRAPH
PIR SHAMS HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED AS SHAMS TABRIZ

PIR SHAMS AND SHAMS TABRIZ ARE DIFFERENT. PIR SHAMS WAS BORN IN SABZWAR WHILE SHAMS TABRIZ WAS BORN IN TABRIZ.PIR SHAMS WAS PIR AND SHAMS TABRIZ WAS NOT PIR.THERE ARE GINANS OF PIR SHAMS WHILE THERE ARE QASIDAS OF SHAMS TABRIZ.

ANOTHER STATEMENT AGAINST OUR RELIGION AND PIRS ON PAGE NUMBER 179 FIRST PARAGRAPH PIR SADARDIN ..... HAD ESTABLISHED A HEREDITARY DYNASTY WITHOUT REGULAR CONTACTS WITH NIZARI IMAM

ON PAGE 179 IT S WRITTEN THAT SHRINE OF PIR SADARDIN S LOCATED NEAR UCCH WHILE IN RELIGIOUS CENTER BOOK IT IS WRTTEN THAT T IS 17 KILOMETER FAR FROM ALLAHABAD

ON PAGE 179 SECOND PARAGRAPH IT IS WRITTEN THAT FIRST JAMAT KHANA WAS MADE BY PIR SADARDIN.IT IS WRONG PIR SHAMS MADE 84 JAMAT KHANAS

[star_munir]

ON PAGE NUMBER 179 LAST PARAGRAPH IT IS WRITTEN ABOUT PIR HASAN KABIR DIN THAT HE TOO TRAVELLED WIDELY AND REPORTEDLY VISITED HIS CONTEMPORARY IMAM ,MUSTANSIRBILLAH.
PIR HASAN KABIRDIN WAS AT THE TIME OF IMAM ISLAM SHAH.

ON PAGE 180 IT IS WRITTEN THAT THAT GINAN BUJH NIRINJAN IS NOT A GINAN BUT A POEM MADE BY A SUFI.LATER KHOJAS ATTRIBUTED IT TO PIR SADARDIN.
NOW I AM ASKING WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF A IGNORANT ISMALI READ THIS BOOK?WHAT WILL HE THINK ABOUT GINANS. MORE ON PAGE 180 IT IS WRITTEN THAT AFTER PIR HASAN KABIRDIN IMAMS MADE SYSTEMATIC EFFORTS TO CONTROL THE HEREDITARY AUTHORITY OF PIR.AGAIN FALSE STATEMENT ON PAGE 182 NIZARI IMAMS HAD EVIDENTLY APPOINTED 1 MORE PIR ... NAMED DADU[IT MUST BE NOTED THAT HE WAS NOT PIR BUT A SYED OR WAKEEL]AUTHOR WRITES THAT DADU WHOSE NAME DOES NOT APPEAR IN THE LATER LIST OF PIRS OR POSSIBLY TAJDIN LINE OF PIRS DEFINATELY CAME TO AN END. AUTHOR DONT KNOWS THAT LINE OF PIRS NEVER COME TO AN END.
SIMILARLY PERSIAN AND ARABIC WAS NOT USED BY EDUCATED CLASSES IN INDIA AS MENTIONED BY THE AUTHOR ON PAGE NUMBER 183

I HAVE JUST READ SOME PAGES AND FIND THESE MISTAKES .THERE MAY BE MORE TOO.
NOW SOME QUESTIONS
IS IT NOT PUBLISHED BY ISMAILI INSTITUTION?
WHO IS PROMOTING THE BOOK?TARIQA BOARD
TARIQA BOARD CAN BAN FARMANS GINANS WORDS OF OUR PIR AND IMAM CAN NOT IT BAN THIS BOOK?INSPITE ANNOUNCEMENT IN JAMATKHANA WAS MADE.NOOREMUBIN IS BANNED BUT NOT THIS WHY IS IT NOT AGAINST OUR RELIGION AND IS FULL OF HISTORCAL MISTAKES?THIS BOOK MUST BE IMMEDIATELY BAN.

[shamsu]

ON PAGE NUMBER 179 LAST PARAGRAPH IT IS WRITTEN ABOUT PIR HASAN KABIR DIN THAT HE TOO TRAVELLED WIDELY AND REPORTEDLY VISITED HIS CONTEMPORARY IMAM ,MUSTANSIRBILLAH.
PIR HASAN KABIRDIN WAS AT THE TIME OF IMAM ISLAM SHAH.

ON PAGE 180 IT IS WRITTEN THAT THAT GINAN BUJH NIRINJAN IS NOT A GINAN BUT A POEM MADE BY A SUFI.LATER KHOJAS ATTRIBUTED IT TO PIR SADARDIN.
NOW I AM ASKING WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF A IGNORANT ISMALI READ THIS BOOK?WHAT WILL HE THINK ABOUT GINANS. MORE ON PAGE 180 IT IS WRITTEN THAT AFTER PIR HASAN KABIRDIN IMAMS MADE SYSTEMATIC EFFORTS TO CONTROL THE HEREDITARY AUTHORITY OF PIR.AGAIN FALSE STATEMENT ON PAGE 182 NIZARI IMAMS HAD EVIDENTLY APPOINTED 1 MORE PIR ... NAMED DADU[IT MUST BE NOTED THAT HE WAS NOT PIR BUT A SYED OR WAKEEL]AUTHOR WRITES THAT DADU WHOSE NAME DOES NOT APPEAR IN THE LATER LIST OF PIRS OR POSSIBLY TAJDIN LINE OF PIRS DEFINATELY CAME TO AN END. AUTHOR DONT KNOWS THAT LINE OF PIRS NEVER COME TO AN END.
SIMILARLY PERSIAN AND ARABIC WAS NOT USED BY EDUCATED CLASSES IN INDIA AS MENTIONED BY THE AUTHOR ON PAGE NUMBER 183

I HAVE JUST READ SOME PAGES AND FIND THESE MISTAKES .THERE MAY BE MORE TOO.
NOW SOME QUESTIONS
IS IT NOT PUBLISHED BY ISMAILI INSTITUTION?
WHO IS PROMOTING THE BOOK?TARIQA BOARD
TARIQA BOARD CAN BAN FARMANS GINANS WORDS OF OUR PIR AND IMAM CAN NOT IT BAN THIS BOOK?INSPITE ANNOUNCEMENT IN JAMATKHANA WAS MADE.NOOREMUBIN IS BANNED BUT NOT THIS WHY IS IT NOT AGAINST OUR RELIGION AND IS FULL OF HISTORCAL MISTAKES?THIS BOOK MUST BE IMMEDIATELY BAN.

Ya Aly Madad,
One thing, Persian was the legal language at the time of the Moghuls.

I think all other things you mention are right. I have had IIS graduates say that the authorship of Kalame Mowla is uncertain and similiar things about the Ginans. I think I now know why.

Ya Aly Madad,

Shams.

[roxy]

ON PAGE NUMBER 179 LAST PARAGRAPH IT IS WRITTEN ABOUT PIR HASAN KABIR DIN THAT HE TOO TRAVELLED WIDELY AND REPORTEDLY VISITED HIS CONTEMPORARY IMAM ,MUSTANSIRBILLAH.
PIR HASAN KABIRDIN WAS AT THE TIME OF IMAM ISLAM SHAH.

ON PAGE 180 IT IS WRITTEN THAT THAT GINAN BUJH NIRINJAN IS NOT A GINAN BUT A POEM MADE BY A SUFI.LATER KHOJAS ATTRIBUTED IT TO PIR SADARDIN.
NOW I AM ASKING WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF A IGNORANT ISMALI READ THIS BOOK?WHAT WILL HE THINK ABOUT GINANS. MORE ON PAGE 180 IT IS WRITTEN THAT AFTER PIR HASAN KABIRDIN IMAMS MADE SYSTEMATIC EFFORTS TO CONTROL THE HEREDITARY AUTHORITY OF PIR.AGAIN FALSE STATEMENT ON PAGE 182 NIZARI IMAMS HAD EVIDENTLY APPOINTED 1 MORE PIR ... NAMED DADU[IT MUST BE NOTED THAT HE WAS NOT PIR BUT A SYED OR WAKEEL]AUTHOR WRITES THAT DADU WHOSE NAME DOES NOT APPEAR IN THE LATER LIST OF PIRS OR POSSIBLY TAJDIN LINE OF PIRS DEFINATELY CAME TO AN END. AUTHOR DONT KNOWS THAT LINE OF PIRS NEVER COME TO AN END.
SIMILARLY PERSIAN AND ARABIC WAS NOT USED BY EDUCATED CLASSES IN INDIA AS MENTIONED BY THE AUTHOR ON PAGE NUMBER 183

I HAVE JUST READ SOME PAGES AND FIND THESE MISTAKES .THERE MAY BE MORE TOO.
NOW SOME QUESTIONS
IS IT NOT PUBLISHED BY ISMAILI INSTITUTION?
WHO IS PROMOTING THE BOOK?TARIQA BOARD
TARIQA BOARD CAN BAN FARMANS GINANS WORDS OF OUR PIR AND IMAM CAN NOT IT BAN THIS BOOK?INSPITE ANNOUNCEMENT IN JAMATKHANA WAS MADE.NOOREMUBIN IS BANNED BUT NOT THIS WHY IS IT NOT AGAINST OUR RELIGION AND IS FULL OF HISTORCAL MISTAKES?THIS BOOK MUST BE IMMEDIATELY BAN.

Ya Aly Madad,
One thing, Persian was the legal language at the time of the Moghuls.

I think all other things you mention are right. I have had IIS graduates say that the authorship of Kalame Mowla is uncertain and similiar things about the Ginans. I think I now know why.

Ya Aly Madad,

Shams.

Re: Kalame Mowla is uncertain
If this was so sultan mohd shah would have said saw. OK.
The same regarding Ginans.

However, what can i say to the things you invent -

the things you invent you term as farmans, the ginan - you translate aql - breathing, open eyes-blind, you even got adam and 50000 and what not.

[shamsu]

ON PAGE NUMBER 179 LAST PARAGRAPH IT IS WRITTEN ABOUT PIR HASAN KABIR DIN THAT HE TOO TRAVELLED WIDELY AND REPORTEDLY VISITED HIS CONTEMPORARY IMAM ,MUSTANSIRBILLAH.
PIR HASAN KABIRDIN WAS AT THE TIME OF IMAM ISLAM SHAH.

ON PAGE 180 IT IS WRITTEN THAT THAT GINAN BUJH NIRINJAN IS NOT A GINAN BUT A POEM MADE BY A SUFI.LATER KHOJAS ATTRIBUTED IT TO PIR SADARDIN.
NOW I AM ASKING WHAT WILL HAPPEN IF A IGNORANT ISMALI READ THIS BOOK?WHAT WILL HE THINK ABOUT GINANS. MORE ON PAGE 180 IT IS WRITTEN THAT AFTER PIR HASAN KABIRDIN IMAMS MADE SYSTEMATIC EFFORTS TO CONTROL THE HEREDITARY AUTHORITY OF PIR.AGAIN FALSE STATEMENT ON PAGE 182 NIZARI IMAMS HAD EVIDENTLY APPOINTED 1 MORE PIR ... NAMED DADU[IT MUST BE NOTED THAT HE WAS NOT PIR BUT A SYED OR WAKEEL]AUTHOR WRITES THAT DADU WHOSE NAME DOES NOT APPEAR IN THE LATER LIST OF PIRS OR POSSIBLY TAJDIN LINE OF PIRS DEFINATELY CAME TO AN END. AUTHOR DONT KNOWS THAT LINE OF PIRS NEVER COME TO AN END.
SIMILARLY PERSIAN AND ARABIC WAS NOT USED BY EDUCATED CLASSES IN INDIA AS MENTIONED BY THE AUTHOR ON PAGE NUMBER 183

I HAVE JUST READ SOME PAGES AND FIND THESE MISTAKES .THERE MAY BE MORE TOO.
NOW SOME QUESTIONS
IS IT NOT PUBLISHED BY ISMAILI INSTITUTION?
WHO IS PROMOTING THE BOOK?TARIQA BOARD
TARIQA BOARD CAN BAN FARMANS GINANS WORDS OF OUR PIR AND IMAM CAN NOT IT BAN THIS BOOK?INSPITE ANNOUNCEMENT IN JAMATKHANA WAS MADE.NOOREMUBIN IS BANNED BUT NOT THIS WHY IS IT NOT AGAINST OUR RELIGION AND IS FULL OF HISTORCAL MISTAKES?THIS BOOK MUST BE IMMEDIATELY BAN.

Ya Aly Madad,
One thing, Persian was the legal language at the time of the Moghuls.

I think all other things you mention are right. I have had IIS graduates say that the authorship of Kalame Mowla is uncertain and similiar things about the Ginans. I think I now know why.

Ya Aly Madad,

Shams.

Re: Kalame Mowla is uncertain
If this was so sultan mohd shah would have said saw. OK.
The same regarding Ginans.

However, what can i say to the things you invent -

the things you invent you term as farmans, the ginan - you translate aql - breathing, open eyes-blind, you even got adam and 50000 and what not.

Dear Roxy,

Ya Aly Madad,

I missed you for the few days I was without a computer.

Reading your posts, brings a grin to my face.

I have no doubt in my mind that you are a true aashiq of the Imam of the time.

What makes me grin is the wideness of spectrum, mowla's aashiqs cover on this planet.

It gives me immense pleasure to interact with mowlas aashiqs on these forum boards. I couldn't be luckier and couldn't thank Mowla enough for this priviledge.

Nothing can dilute that pleasure.

If it comes from Mowla's aashiq, a shule(spear) feels like a fuul(flower).

Thank you so much,

May Mowla keep you Immersed in his Noor Eternally.

Ya Aly Madad

Shamsuddin.

[shamsu]

Ya Aly Madad star_munir,

your post stated

ON PAGE 180 IT IS WRITTEN THAT THAT GINAN BUJH NIRINJAN IS NOT A GINAN BUT A POEM MADE BY A SUFI.LATER KHOJAS ATTRIBUTED IT TO PIR SADARDIN

Anyone who is familiar with Pir Sadardeen (salwat) and his ginans can easily discern the truth.

It appears as if Farhad Daftary has taken all the rumours he found about Ismailies and has given them a pseudo legitimacy in his inaccurate book.

A non Ismaili writing a book about Ismailies is like a Plumber writing a book about Architecture.



Check out the Buj Niranjan pat here and recognize for your self that it is indeed Pir Sadardeen who wrote it.


PART EIGHT



jo pa(n)dit or seedh kahaave
chatur sujaann sughadd hoee aave..................................1

If a person regards himself as a scholar and a righteous one, and approaches you as an intelligent all knowing and pure personality

jap tap karee sab janam gamaave
bin gur maarag prem na paave......................................2

... and spends his/her entire life in meditation and abstinence, even then without the Guide(Murshid Kameel) he does not attain the station of love.

jo cheree gur mayaa na paave
dhyaan gyaan kuchh kaam na aave...................................3

If one does not attain the grace of the Guide, his/her concentration and knowledge is useless.

ddhu(n)ddhat doddat janam gamaave
bin gura mayaa na maarag paave....................................4

If one spends his/her entire life seeking and running around, even then without the grace of the Guide, no station is attained.

jo tu(n) laakh tabeeb bulaave
bin guru vednaa na jaave..........................................5

Even if you called upon one hundred thousand physicians, your pain will not go away without the grace of the Guide.

vednaa jaave jo guru chit (l)aavere
dukh khove sab sukh upajaave......................................6

Your pain will go away if the object of your attention is the Guide, sorrow is lost and all peace is attained.

jo(je) gurthee jo vednaa jaave
so gur saachaa peer kahaave.......................................7

The guide through whom pain leaves, is indeed the guide who is regarded as the true Peer.

re tu(n)hee ...
baddaa gur male peeddku(n)
daaru deve chhaar re;
bin gur peeddaa jaave nahee(n)
aayaa vedakaa saar re.......................................VIII

O you, ... If you attain such an exalted guide to take away the pain, he will give you the appropriate medicine. Without the Guide, the pain does not go away for He is indeed the essence of all the scriptures.




I don't know any sufi who would give this much importance to the SatGuru
(Rumi comes close, but that's it, in my opinion.)


I have purchased almost all the IIS publications, but for years my heart will not allow me to buy or read any book written by Farhad Daftary.

To this day I can not and will not buy or read a book written by Farhad Daftary.


Back home in India we used to have a saying about Donkeys and Saffron which may be applicable here.

In my Opinion,
Farhad Daftary cannot ever understand what Ismailies feel about the Imam of the Time, well not until he comes under the protection of Mowla's Baiyat.

May Mowla bless him with Shanakhat of Haqiqat in this lifetime.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams

[shamsu]

Posted: 24 May 2003 08:42 pm Post subject: ANTI GINAN BOOK AMONG ISMAILIS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THIS BOOK IS NOW VERY COMMON AND THE NAME OF BOOK IS A SHORT HISTORY OF ISMAILIS .AUTHOR IS FARHAD DAFTARY,A NON ISMALI AND HE IS HEAD OF THE DEPARTMENT OF ACADEMIS RESEARCH AND PUBLICATIONS AT THE INSTITUTE OF ISMALIS STUDIES LONDON.

He should have named the Book "SHORT CIRCUITING THE HISTORY OF ISMAILIES"

[shamsu]

I think DADU was actually a Mukhi at that time and you know that Mukhi represents the Imam. I wonder if that is where the misunderstanding occured.

If the name of the Pir is not stated in the old dua then I don't think that is an appointed Pir.
Now Mowla Bapa has given that title to Varas Ismail Gangji and Itmadi Subzali.
There are multiple places Farhad Daftary could have been mistaken, but it is interesting how the unbelieving mind gravitated towards the most damaging point of view.

[shamsu]

ON PG 177 IT IS WRITTEN THAT GINANS WERE TRANSMITTED ORALLY FOR SEVERAL CENTURIES BEFORE THEY WERE RECORDED.ACCORDING TO NOOR-E-MUBIN [THE BEST HISTORY BOOK OF ISMAILI EVER WRITTEN]GARBIS OF PIR SHAMS WERE RECORDED BY PANDITS

This is very interesting, we should all know that Pir Sadardeen made a living by reproducing The Quran as his penmanship was excellent.

It goes against reason that Ismailies would not record the ginans when their Pirs were the elite of the elite, where education and knowledge is concerned and had access to writing materials.

The truth is that Ismailies of the time made it a point to memorize every single part of every single Ginan they came in touch with due to their love for the Imam.

Alas, Farhad Daftary couldn't understand that and with his horse goggles could not see that love and reported it as verbal transmission of the Ginans.

Some facts come to mind about this.

1]"Donga to ane ane hare vase, Te to lootae sahebji nu dhyan re, Moman mann em jaan jo ji"


2]We know that Abubaker, Umer and Usman were very close to Rasulillah(salwat) and what they did later on is crystal clear to every Shia Muslim.


3]There is a reason for the ginans to say "Doorthi laagjo pai".

4]and for Pir Sadardeen(salwat) to say "ek fikr munivar tamari cche amne, ,manas rupe saheb jaano ji"

[roxy]

ON PG 177 IT IS WRITTEN THAT GINANS WERE TRANSMITTED ORALLY FOR SEVERAL CENTURIES BEFORE THEY WERE RECORDED.ACCORDING TO NOOR-E-MUBIN [THE BEST HISTORY BOOK OF ISMAILI EVER WRITTEN]GARBIS OF PIR SHAMS WERE RECORDED BY PANDITS

This is very interesting, we should all know that Pir Sadardeen made a living by reproducing The Quran as his penmanship was excellent.

It goes against reason that Ismailies would not record the ginans when their Pirs were the elite of the elite, where education and knowledge is concerned and had access to writing materials.

The truth is that Ismailies of the time made it a point to memorize every single part of every single Ginan they came in touch with due to their love for the Imam.

Alas, Farhad Daftary couldn't understand that and with his horse goggles could not see that love and reported it as verbal transmission of the Ginans.

Some facts come to mind about this.

1]"Donga to ane ane hare vase, Te to lootae sahebji nu dhyan re, Moman mann em jaan jo ji"


2]We know that Abubaker, Umer and Usman were very close to Rasulillah(salwat) and what they did later on is crystal clear to every Shia Muslim.


3]There is a reason for the ginans to say "Doorthi laagjo pai".

4]and for Pir Sadardeen(salwat) to say "ek fikr munivar tamari cche amne, ,manas rupe saheb jaano ji"

Why would anyone try to transmit ginans orally when there were books which were written by pirs available? It does not make sense you know. To mention orally one should memorise and to memorise one has to refer to the books. The question of transmitting the ginans orally does not arise because the other person will not be able grasp things in oral form at one sitting or two sittings or three sittings and go on remembering it because human nature is such that these things are just not possible. If it were so then god would not have sent his messages in the form of books. In view of this the question of imam allowing ginans to be conveyed is such a manner only does not arise when the imam himself in the ismaili constitution mentions "undertake the publication of books and materials on relevant aspects of Islam and the Ismaili Tariqah;"

If soneone writes something and if that somethings goes against the farmans of mawlana hazar imam then the farmans are right and others are wrong. So it is necessary that ismailis refer to the farmans.

So if someone says "This is very interesting, we should all know that Pir Sadardeen made a living by reproducing The Quran as his penmanship was excellent." and if these things are not reflected in the farmans or in the ginans then this someone is wrong.

[shamsu]

Study the life of Pir Sadardeen and you tell me how did he do "2 kallaak(hours) duniyano kaamkaj" as stated by Imam SMS in KIM.
Mowla has stated in Farman that Pir Sadardeen sat in Ibadat 16 hrs a day, discussed Ilm and Ginan 4 hr a day, slept 2 hrs and worked for 2 hrs.

You have the material, go through it and tell me the details. You will learn so much in the process

[roxy]

Study the life of Pir Sadardeen and you tell me how did he do "2 kallaak(hours) duniyano kaamkaj" as stated by Imam SMS in KIM.
Mowla has stated in Farman that Pir Sadardeen sat in Ibadat 16 hrs a day, discussed Ilm and Ginan 4 hr a day, slept 2 hrs and worked for 2 hrs.

You have the material, go through it and tell me the details. You will learn so much in the process

Ref. No. of the farman is required - I hardly get the time to go through all this - in fact I have been trying to discontinue because my work is suffering. To remember mawlana hazar imam does not mean one cannot remember mawlana hazar imam while working. The farman with proper reference please.

[logical]

Excerpt from roxy's post:

"Why would anyone try to transmit ginans orally when there were books which were written by pirs available? It does not make sense you know. To mention orally one should memorise and to memorise one has to refer to the books. The question of transmitting the ginans orally does not arise because the other person will not be able grasp things in oral form at one sitting or two sittings or three sittings and go on remembering it because human nature is such that these things are just not possible. If it were so then god would not have sent his messages in the form of books. In view of this the question of imam allowing ginans to be conveyed is such a manner only does not arise when the imam himself in the ismaili constitution mentions "undertake the publication of books and materials on relevant aspects of Islam and the Ismaili Tariqah;"


It doesn't make sense, does it?

The reason why the ginans were not written down is the same why ismailis - even TODAY- will not openly discuss their faith with strangers. It is called TAQIYYA for fears of persecution.

[roxy]

Excerpt from roxy's post:

"Why would anyone try to transmit ginans orally when there were books which were written by pirs available? It does not make sense you know. To mention orally one should memorise and to memorise one has to refer to the books. The question of transmitting the ginans orally does not arise because the other person will not be able grasp things in oral form at one sitting or two sittings or three sittings and go on remembering it because human nature is such that these things are just not possible. If it were so then god would not have sent his messages in the form of books. In view of this the question of imam allowing ginans to be conveyed is such a manner only does not arise when the imam himself in the ismaili constitution mentions "undertake the publication of books and materials on relevant aspects of Islam and the Ismaili Tariqah;"


It doesn't make sense, does it?

The reason why the ginans were not written down is the same why ismailis - even TODAY- will not openly discuss their faith with strangers. It is called TAQIYYA for fears of persecution.

You mean to say because of taqiyya (according to you - fears of persecution) people will not write the books - really? Does taqiyya mean not publishing/copying the books and not reading from the books? Does taqiyya mean not following the farmans of mawlana hazar imam ? does taqiyya mean destroying all the books. does taqiyya mean not copying from the original.

TAQIYAA - is a NO NO NO as far as ginans are concerned GINANS - pir converted many into ismailism - is it not?

Reference from a farman needed about all that you say about the ginans - OK. When your interpretation goes against the farmans then your interpretation is wrong.

Moses used to practise taqiyaa (the fears of persecution you mention). Read the quran how he used to practise taqiyaa.

You mention:
ismailis - even TODAY- will not openly discuss their faith with strangers.
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In today's time to discuss about ismaili faith one should know the faith of the strangers. Without knowing the faith of others how can they compare you know. At the same time the strangers should know about their own faith. It is possible that the strangers the ismailis meet do not know much of their own religion. It is also possible that ismailis are happy with their own faith and they do not want to discuss their faith with others - so let them be happy. there are many possibilities you know.

[nagib]

Extract from :

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/mumtaz.html

I found this pertinent to this discussion.

Nagib
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There seems a general conception amongst modern scholars [2,3] that Ginans were originally preserved orally and put to writing at a much later date, perhaps centuries later. However , if one were to examine the internal evidence, it is apparent that they were written down from the time they were composed. In fact, they were preserved both orally and in writing. Some verses from various Ginans are quoted below to support this view.

(a) Vimras and Surbann wrote down (akhar kiya) whatever Pir Shamsh had imparted. [4]

(b) Reading (vanchiy-e) the Ginans of Pirs, with the understanding gained, you shall attain salvation. [5]

(c) Even the ones who will read (vanchash-e) the Ginans will develop a sense of superiority. [6]

(d) One who listens Girbhavali and reads (vanch-e) its theme will be rewarded an eternal place in the abode of immortals. [7]

(e) I have written (likh-di) all matters in it. [8]

(f) All essences are written (likhiya) in it. [9]

(g) One who reads (pad-e) (this Granth) will get the understanding of the reality. [10]

(h) Everything is written (likhiya) in the Vel. [11]

(i) All means of remembrance are written (likhiya) in it.[12]

Most probably the practice of transcribing would have been limited to the Da'is working under the Pirs. These texts would be used by the Da'is themselves and copies to be placed in Jamat khana for reading and memorizing by the converts.

[shamsu]

Ya Aly Madad Nagib,

Girbhavali nani ane moti,

Can I have access to it, along with the translation if you have it.

Ya Aly Madad,

Shams

[star_munir]

YA ALI MADAD
THANKS THAT YOU AGREE WITH ME.
FARHAD DAFTARY IS NOT TOTALLY ANTI ISMAILI.HE IS NOT AGAINST IMAM BUT HE IS AGAINST GINANS.I HAVE READ A BOOK ISMAILI TARIKH WA AQAID.THIS BOOK IS IN URDU AND TRANSLATED FROM ENGLISH TO URDU BY AZIZ ALLAH NAJIB AND AUTHOR IS FARHAD DAFTARY.THIS BOOK HAS ALSO POINTS AGAINST GINANS AND PIR
FOR EXAMPLE
1 ABOUT PIR HASSAN KABIR DIN IT IS WRITTEN THAT ''IT IS INTERESTING TO NOTE THAT THIS PIR IS REPORTED TO HAVE BEEN AFFILIATED WITH SUHRAWARDI SUFI ORDER.
IT IS WRITTEN THAT IN THE OLD LIST OF PIR THERE WAS ONLY ONE NAME AFTER PIR PANDIAT JAWANMARDI AND THAT WAS OF DADU BUT LATER HIS NAME WAS TAKEN OUT FROM THE LIST OF PIR.

NOW YOU SHOULD THINK THAT IT IS NOT A JOKE THAT FIRST HE WAS PIR THAN HE WAS NOT.THIS IS NOTHING BUT RUMOUR

IT IS WRITTEN THAT BROTHER OF PIR MASHAIKH ,HASSAN WHO WAS FAITHFUL TO NIZARI IMAM BECAME PIR OF NIZARI MUMNAS

THE NAME OF BOTH THIS PIRS IS NOT IN THE LIST OF ISMAILI PIR
IT IS WRITTEN THAT GINANS AND OTHER SUCH THINGS RELATED TO THS FIRQA ARE MOSTLY WRONG AND THESE ARE MIXTURE OF TRUTH AND FALSE STORIES[AFSANA]

SURPRISING THING IS THAT EVERY ONE IS DOING NOTHING TO STOP THIS.

[shamsu]

Mowla Aly Madad star_munir,

I have heard in Abually waez that Mowlana Hazir Imam listens to Ginan in his private office when he is working by himself.

I think this fact along with all the Farmans Imams have made over the last 125 years are enough for me to have complete faith in the Ginans, but when we are talking about "scholars" who have more faith in their own Intelligence than Imams Universal Intellect, they seem to have bought Farhad Daftary's doubt inducing, faith destroying, anti Ginan Bull excreta like a hog feasting on fecal matter.

It is very interesting to me that in order to convince anyone of the truth you have to provide multiple references and arguements but to convince people into believing lies all you have to do is voice a doubtful rumor.

Just because a person is good at Ismaili history from the Fatimid period doesn't make him an expert in Ginanic literature.

People who do not have knowledge about ginans shouldn't write about them, I think.

We are spiritual children of the spiritual mother who composed the Ginans.

I think of this as someone giving me a gali on my Mother in print.

The spiritual child will recognize his mothers kalaam, he doesn't need any "scholar" to tell him that his mothers words are a myth or legend.

The Imams for more than a century have also been our spiritual mother and they would know their own Kalaam better than any scholar.

Please excuse my anger and language, it is not easy when someone says stuff about your MOTHER.

Ya Aly Madad,
Shamsuddin.

[aminhooda]

Hazar Imam in the year 1975 presided Ismaili Association Conference in Paris. MHI gave the Hidayat to compile our history in view of surfacing of various newer widely acclaimed sources of our history and due to the anecdotal references of Noorum Mubeen. The task was assigned to Ismailia Association for Pakistan, which after International workshops with worldwide pariticipation resulted in four volumes of history (Tarikh-e-Aeema-e-Ismailia) in the year 1977. One of the main authors Shiekh Iqbal shared with his (Advanced Religious Education) students that despite renewed attempt they couldn't provide all details or were not able to carry more authentic research due to time and other constraints. Farhad Daftary is o­ne of the cousins of Mowlana Hazar Imam and his is from Iran. He interviewd candidates from Pakistan ITREB in 1995. It was also brought to our knowledge that he dedicated his life - decades of his life to the mission of compiling the most authentic history of Ismailis, the time can allow.

Pls. feel free to verify the above with IIS and help us all understand the misconceptions some of readers have noted. with prayers for all. Amen

[star_munir]

YA ALI MADAD

ONE THING I DO NOT UNDERSTAND IS THAT YOU SAID ANECDOTAL REFERENCES OF NOORUM MUBIN WHAT IT MEANS?
IF NOORUM MUBIN WAS FALSE AND INCORRECT WHY IMAM SULTAN MOHAMMAD SHAH SAID TO READ THE BOOK.
I HAVE READ TWO FARMANS OF IMAM SULTAN MOHAMMAD SHAH IN WHICH HE SAID TO READ NOORUM MUBIN AND AT THAT TIME IT WAS BEST AND NOW IT IS NOT AUTHENTIC?
IF YOU HAVE READ MY PREVIOUS POSTING YOU WILL CONCLUDE THAT HOW MANY MISTAKES I FOUND IN FEW PAGES. IT IS AUTHENTIC.
IF SOME MUSLIM AUTHOR WRITE SOME THING AGAINST QURAN SO WE WILL ACCEPT IT DEFINATELY NOT OR SOME ONE WRITE WRONG THINGS ABOUT BIBLE WILL CHRISTIANS ACCEPT IT NO THAN WHY WE DO NOT SAY ANY THING AS LOTS OF WRONG THINGS ARE WRITTEN ABOUT GINANS.
THE NOORUM MUBIN WAS WRITTEN BY ALI MOHAMMAD JAN CHUNARA, A ISMAILI. THIS BOOK IS WRITTEN BY FARHAD DAFTARY, A ISNASHARI
NOORUM MUBIN IS WRITTEN FROM ISMAILI POINT OF VIEW.
IT IS NOT WRITTEN FROM ISMAILI POINT OF VIEW
THERE IS FARMAN TO READ NOORUM MUBIN
THERE IS NO FARMAN TO READ BOOK OF FARHAD DAFTARY.
THE PROBLEM WITH THE ISMAILIS IS THAT THEY DO NOT BELIVE IN MIRACLE AND CALLED IT MYTHOLOGY,STORY ETC ALTHOUGH IF YOU HAVE IMAN IN IMAM HE CAN DO ANY THING,HE CAN GIVE LIFE TO DEATH. HE CAN SHOW MIRACLE THAT SUN COMES DOWN
NOW PEOPLE DO NOT BELIVE IN MIRACLES ALTHOUGH IN PRESENT AGE IMAM SHOWS MIRACLE WHICH ARE UN BELIEVEABLE.
I WOLD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT IS IN PARIS CONFERENE ABOUT ISMAILI HISTORY

[aminhooda]

I sincerely hope the note below clarifies some facts and addresses some of your concerns.

Anecdotal reference is a weaker reference. It means a reference is not obtained from a published, refereed, peer reviewed or an accepted formal source. It may have originated in oral or from individual source and thus only accepted to a selected group of people.

The note I have reported on the 1975 Paris conference can be verified from IIS, ITREB Pakistan or those who can have access to published Tarikh-e-Aima-e-Ismailia Vol. 1.

Farhad Daftary or be Imam Ghazali (a major, widely accepted Sunni Scholar), either way it is up to you to read if you think it benefits in your quest of knowledge and wisdom. As far as I know Farhad Daftar's work at this time is the most current Institute of Ismaili Studies (IIS) approved historical compilation. As the time evolves, if God willing, we may have more research into our history, which will bring newer sources of our history to light and giving more authentic and more accepted standpoint for producing another revision of Ismaili history. We know that our phenomenal Fatimid and Alamut libraries were destroyed and now with the blessings of Almighty gradually that knowledge is recovered.

Missionary Chunaara has worked laboriously to produce Noor-um-Mubin, a book that has earned recognition of Imam SMS (SA) and enjoys admirable readership in the khoja jamat. It has been translated in Urdu as it was originally published in Gujrati in 1935. Thus, I would also read it for above reasons. However, since historical compilation is not a static and one-time event, I would be open to the understanding that Ismaili historical work in particular may require more scholarly work.

Can you verify Farhad Daftary's faith (he is the cousin of MHI and I believe he is Ismaili, I may be wrong). It is more pride giving and inspiring to me that a scholar has devoted his life to work that is considered in our times a most authentic compilation of Ismaili history. I understand that historical work draws more respect if it derives its commentary not from personal sources but from refereed, historical and widely acclaimed sources.

[star_munir]

HOW THIS BOOK IS AUTHENTIC AS I HAVE SHOWN THAT HOW MANY MISTAKES I FOUND IN JUST READING FEW PAGES OF THE BOOK.

DONT YOU THINK THAT ISMAILIS CAN BE MISGUIDED BY READING SUCH BOOKS. THERE ARE MANY FARMANS OF IMAM ABOUT IMPORTANCE OF GINANS AND HE CALL IT UNRELIABLE.

HE SAID TO ONE GINAN THAT IT IS NOT GINAN BUT A POEM OF SUFI AND KHOJA ATTRIBUTED THIS TO PIR SADAR DIN. SO READ MY PREVIOS POSTINGS YOU WILL FIND INNUMERABLE MISTAKES. SHAMSHU PROVED THAT GINAN WAS NOT MADE BY SUFI. YOU CAN CHECK IT FROM BOOK.
HE SAID GINANS WERE NOT RECORDED NAGIB PROVED THEY WERE RECORDED AND IT IS ALSO IN NOORUM MUBIN THAT GINANS WERE RECORDED.
THERE ARE MANY HISTORICAL MISTAKES TOO. i THINK IT AS A CONSPIRACY AGAINST ISMAILIS SO THEY LOST THEIR IMAN IN GINANS AND PIR.
THIS BOOK IS FULL OF RUMOURS. IT CAN NOT BE CALL AUTHENTIC AND ANY ISMAILI CAN REALIZE THAT IT IS A WORK OF NON ISMAILI NOT ISMAILI.WHILE WRITING ABOUT ISMAILIS HE WROTE THEY,THEM ETC IN NOORUM MUBIN IT IS OUR,US ETC
I DONT KNOW THAT HE IS COUSIN OF HAZIR IMAM BUT I KNOW THAT HE IS NON ISMAILI IT IS TRUTH.
ABU ALI ALSO TOLD IN HIS WAZ THAT FARHAD DAFTARY IS AN ISNA SHARI. HE WROTE BOOKS ABOUT ISMAILIS.HOWEVER HE SOME TIMES HE ALSO WROTE AGAINST ISMAILS AND ISMAILIS HAVE ANSWERED HIM.

[ShamsB]

folks..

a very very interesting discussion...
if i may shed some light here..my grandfather used to tell me that ginans were not written down for a few reasons..
1. most ismailies at that time couldn't read nor write..
2. the need for taqiyya was great..if one were to saunter down to the other pages on ismaili.net and research some of mumtazali tajdin's work on 101 heroes, one will find that even to the mid 1920's ismailies were persecuted and some did pratice gupti ismailism..to date there are hindu families in tanzania that still practice gupti ismailism...and sikh families in punjab and pakistan that are shamsis
3. those ginans that were written down were captured in khojki..a language whose alphabet and script would only be known to ismailies..
i believe kara ruda missionary had some of these manuscripts that he handed over to ismailia association..but i could be wrong on the name.
4. in regards to daftary..remember hazar imam wants us to think..he wants us to find out about our own faith..daftary maybe a scholar in our faith as was ivanow and faizee...but they are catalysts to have us get interested in our own faith to go do research in our faith..so then we become a true faith of the intellect..daftary isn't a ginan scholar..somebody with the status of Dr. Abu Aly is a ginan scholar, as is Kamaludin, these are our true ginan scholars..let's read them and listen to them to find out more about ginans..i don't think daftary even speaks gujrati or kutchi..but i could be wrong..

[_thaillestlunatic_]

Ya Aly Madat,

does anyone have the 1975 Paris Conference script??

[star_munir]

How it is possible that Ginans were not recorded. There are large number of Ginans.Many Ginans have verses more than 500 or above 600 also so its not possible at all.
It is Noorum Mubin that when Pir Shams was saying Ginans Pundits used to wrote it and Nagib has also proved that Ginans were recorded in written format.
What the problem is that majority of ismailis are ignorant of their faith and they can be misguided by such books .

[ShamsB]

I correct my previous post where I said Kara Ruda missionary had the manuscripts..upon research (from the forum) it was Juma Bhagat who had the manuscripts that he produced during the trials in Bombay.

My apologies


Shams

[star_munir]

In Past I posted this article to show the publication and promotion of Anti Ginan book by Farhad Daftary from IIS.
Now read more about book of him against Ismailism
Dr. Farhad Daftary's publication The Isma'ilis - Their history and doctrines
this authoritative book of Ismaili history is sold in the Ismaili Jamatkhanas of the world by the Ismaili Institutions and Religious Education Boards.
If you will read from page 385 to 392. According to this foolish book Imam HassanAlaZikrSalam was son of a dai and not son of Imam..........