Recycling of souls.

[junglikhan4]

Reply,
But still he eats and drink water and juices! Samosas, briyani and star bucks coffee.

Yes to the world he is an ordinary human being who is dependent on food and drink and who sins!

Reply,

You are admitting that Imam makes mistakes and who sins!!!
I wander, Kmaherali is saying this?

[Admin]

You are admitting that Imam makes mistakes and who sins!!!
I wander, Kmaherali is saying this?

If you continue misquoting, I will have no hesitation deleting your account. In the same way I would delete the account of people who would misquote your post. Fairness is the base of this Forum.

You can not stand here and spread lies. Read properly and quote accurately!

[kmaherali]

Reply,

You are admitting that Imam makes mistakes and who sins!!!
I wander, Kmaherali is saying this?

There is a verse in the Ginan: Saambro munivar ved ni vaat which states:

ejee chetee chaalo kaljug maa(n)he saachaa
bhaaee jevu(n) taaru(n) deel tevee saahebjeenee vaachaa....9

Proceed cautiously in the present age o true ones. Brothers, the expression (appearance and the words) of the Master will depend upon the state of your heart.

This means that the Imam expresses himself according to the understanding and the hearts of his audience.

In his Memoirs (directed to the western audience), MSMS wrote that he used to steal books from a bookstore until he was taught a lesson by his uncle.

To his murids, when he became the Imam when he was only 8 years old, he said: "Why are you looking so sad? Isn't your Imam among you, doing your work?"

The difference is the nature of the audience. The murids know the Imam as the Mazhar of Allah whereas the others do not have that understanding.

[junglikhan4]

You are admitting that Imam makes mistakes and who sins!!!
I wander, Kmaherali is saying this?

If you continue misquoting, I will have no hesitation deleting your account. In the same way I would delete the account of people who would misquote your post. Fairness is the base of this Forum.

You can not stand here and spread lies. Read properly and quote accurately!

Admin.

With above ref. look at the damaging words written by Mr.Kmaherali," and who sins." Now read my wordings, I was astonished, that's why I replied," I wander Kmaherali is saying this." Now explain me what I said wrong.

[Admin]

Admin.

With above ref. look at the damaging words written by Mr.Kmaherali," and who sins." Now read my wordings, I was astonished, that's why I replied," I wander Kmaherali is saying this." Now explain me what I said wrong.

This is what the post said "Yes to the world he is an ordinary human being who is dependent on food and drink and who sins!"

But you wrote that KM admitted that the Imam sinned. So what you wrote is not what KM posted. Please quote properly next time.

[junglikhan4]

Reply,

You are admitting that Imam makes mistakes and who sins!!!
I wander, Kmaherali is saying this?

There is a verse in the Ginan: Saambro munivar ved ni vaat which states:

ejee chetee chaalo kaljug maa(n)he saachaa
bhaaee jevu(n) taaru(n) deel tevee saahebjeenee vaachaa....9

Proceed cautiously in the present age o true ones. Brothers, the expression (appearance and the words) of the Master will depend upon the state of your heart.

This means that the Imam expresses himself according to the understanding and the hearts of his audience.

In his Memoirs (directed to the western audience), MSMS wrote that he used to steal books from a bookstore until he was taught a lesson by his uncle.

To his murids, when he became the Imam when he was only 8 years old, he said: "Why are you looking so sad? Isn't your Imam among you, doing your work?"

The difference is the nature of the audience. The murids know the Imam as the Mazhar of Allah whereas the others do not have that understanding.

Reply,

Innocent questions without annoying any one.

Why MSMS mentioned the story of his stealing the books from a store and was disciplined by an uncle. If he has not mentioned it we have not been discussing it. what impression he wanted to give to western audiences.

Imam is innocent by birth as we believe and do not indulge in such kind of activities. How we explain this situation to our youngsters.

I heard this story from a leader. Ismailia Association asked Mr. Jon elliya (brother of Rais Amrohi the famous Urdu poet, his other brother who produced the movie Mughal e Azam in India) to translate Memoirs in Urdu. After printing it went on sell in JK book stalls, but after 2/3 weeks the books were recalled and stop selling. What was the reason never mentioned, but after some time it was leaked that some stories mentioned in Memoirs may have negative impact on present jamait and coming generations.

[junglikhan4]

The Quran says," Indeed Jesus Christ the son of Maryam was Rasulullah and the Kalima ( Word ) which He bestowed on Maryam and there in the Ruh (Soul)
Al Nisa, 171.
The Quran reveals that Hazrat Issa was the word of God, which was inspired in bibi Maryam and was a special soul from God. Question is what is the relationship between the Kalima and the Ruh ie. the word and the soul.

[kmaherali]

The Quran says," Indeed Jesus Christ the son of Maryam was Rasulullah and the Kalima ( Word ) which He bestowed on Maryam and there in the Ruh (Soul)
Al Nisa, 171.
The Quran reveals that Hazrat Issa was the word of God, which was inspired in bibi Maryam and was a special soul from God. Question is what is the relationship between the Kalima and the Ruh ie. the word and the soul.

The word symbolizes guidance, knowledge and the use of intellect in faith.

In His Speech at the Opening Session of Word of God, Art of Man: The Quran and its Creative Expressions; at the Ismaili Center London, Mowlana HazarImam elaborates on the concept of knowledge and it's purpose when talking about Sayyedna Nasir Khusraw as:
"Poetising the Prophets teaching, Nasir Khusraw, the 11th century Iranian poet-philosopher, also extols the virtue of knowledge. For him, true jihad is the war that must be waged against the perpetrators of bigotry, through spreading knowledge that dispels the darkness of ignorance and nourishes the seed of peace that is innately embedded in the human soul".

From the above we can see that knowledge and wisdom is the food of the soul.

In the Ginan: Abdu Jugat Jol Santosh patra karo, it is stated:

abadhu jugat jol sa(n)tosh paatra karo
ane dda(n)ddaa karo beechaar(veechaar)
khameeyaa dayaakee doy mu(n)ddhr pahero
geenaan karjo aahaar

abadhu te jogee jugamaa(n)he, jaako man dujaare naa(n)hee
abadhu te jogee jugamaa(n)he...............................1

O slave! Make the begging (for grace) bowl the Path with care and contentment,
and let the thought process and reflection be the stirring stick.
Wear the two earings of patience and mercy. Let the 'geenaans' to be your food.
O slave! The sage in this world is the one, whose heart is free from matters (other than faith and religion).

In one of the speeches Prince Amyn explained the relationship between the word and God and how the word enables one to attain spiritual enlightenment. The speech can be accessed at:

http://ismaili.net/speech/8901amyn.html

Quote:

Legibility, in fact, becomes of minor importance, since calligraphy always conveys and constitutes by its very essence the central symbol of Faith. The attitude that the intrinsic meaning or content is secondary to the beauty, i.e. to the form and the abstraction of the letters considered as artistic composition, can lead one to positions not far distant from the "art for art's sake" school of the West, so many centuries later. Abu'l Fazal who wrote the Akbar Nama, says that, "the written letter is spiritual geometry emanating from the pen of invention". A closeness to Plato's view that writing is the geometry of the soul is evident.

[kmaherali]

Reply,

Innocent questions without annoying any one.

Why MSMS mentioned the story of his stealing the books from a store and was disciplined by an uncle. If he has not mentioned it we have not been discussing it. what impression he wanted to give to western audiences.

Imam is innocent by birth as we believe and do not indulge in such kind of activities. How we explain this situation to our youngsters.

I heard this story from a leader. Ismailia Association asked Mr. Jon elliya (brother of Rais Amrohi the famous Urdu poet, his other brother who produced the movie Mughal e Azam in India) to translate Memoirs in Urdu. After printing it went on sell in JK book stalls, but after 2/3 weeks the books were recalled and stop selling. What was the reason never mentioned, but after some time it was leaked that some stories mentioned in Memoirs may have negative impact on present jamait and coming generations.

When the Memoirs was first published, MSMS sent a talika to the Jamat informing them that he had two audiences in front of him, the Ismailis on the one hand and the Other on the other. The Memoirs was meant for the later.

I think the reason for him mentioning this incident was to project an image of an ordinary human being who like others learns through mistakes. He could have easily avoided mentioning it, but he decided to mention it. Elsewhere he mentions that he had rare moments of spiritual enlightenement like any other human being, but in reality we know him to be the Bearer of the Noor who constantly guides his murids and hence is always in an enlightened state.

I don't think we should prevent murids from reading it. There is a wealth of interesting information in it.

In my opinion, intentionally the Imam is always pure and infallible, regardless of how his actions may appear. He must have had good reasons to do the stealing! The Imams have been rulers in the past and they would have certainly sanctioned killings of criminals, so the actions of the Imams can appear sinful although there is no sin involved in reality. Lord Krishna killed his enemies the Dhuryodhans.

So how do we explain the youths about the Imams' apparent sins. First we must tell them that they must not judge the actions of the Imam according to normal criteria of what is right and what is wrong. The truth follows the Imam and not the other way round. The Imam is not subject to the Sharia and is not our role model. This is expalined very well in the book The Paradise of Submission by Tusi.

[agakhani_1]

Thanks Khan Saab for bring in light the unknown fact about the Memoirs of SMS' book!! it was really unknown that that book was once recalled!!!

Kbhai,
Thanks for explaining why recalled was happened.
Thank you both.

[junglikhan4]

Reply,

Innocent questions without annoying any one.

Why MSMS mentioned the story of his stealing the books from a store and was disciplined by an uncle. If he has not mentioned it we have not been discussing it. what impression he wanted to give to western audiences.

Imam is innocent by birth as we believe and do not indulge in such kind of activities. How we explain this situation to our youngsters.

I heard this story from a leader. Ismailia Association asked Mr. Jon elliya (brother of Rais Amrohi the famous Urdu poet, his other brother who produced the movie Mughal e Azam in India) to translate Memoirs in Urdu. After printing it went on sell in JK book stalls, but after 2/3 weeks the books were recalled and stop selling. What was the reason never mentioned, but after some time it was leaked that some stories mentioned in Memoirs may have negative impact on present jamait and coming generations.

When the Memoirs was first published, MSMS sent a talika to the Jamat informing them that he had two audiences in front of him, the Ismailis on the one hand and the Other on the other. The Memoirs was meant for the later.

I think the reason for him mentioning this incident was to project an image of an ordinary human being who like others learns through mistakes. He could have easily avoided mentioning it, but he decided to mention it. Elsewhere he mentions that he had rare moments of spiritual enlightenement like any other human being, but in reality we know him to be the Bearer of the Noor who constantly guides his murids and hence is always in an enlightened state.

I don't think we should prevent murids from reading it. There is a wealth of interesting information in it.

In my opinion, intentionally the Imam is always pure and infallible, regardless of how his actions may appear. He must have had good reasons to do the stealing! The Imams have been rulers in the past and they would have certainly sanctioned killings of criminals, so the actions of the Imams can appear sinful although there is no sin involved in reality. Lord Krishna killed his enemies the Dhuryodhans.

So how do we explain the youths about the Imams' apparent sins. First we must tell them that they must not judge the actions of the Imam according to normal criteria of what is right and what is wrong. The truth follows the Imam and not the other way round. The Imam is not subject to the Sharia and is not our role model. This is expalined very well in the book The Paradise of Submission by Tusi.

Reply,

Appreciate, well explained.

[junglikhan4]

When it is time for a person to die, how the angel of death Izra'el seizes the soul. What is the exit of soul?

[junglikhan4]

The Quran says," Indeed Jesus Christ the son of Maryam was Rasulullah and the Kalima ( Word ) which He bestowed on Maryam and there in the Ruh (Soul)
Al Nisa, 171.
The Quran reveals that Hazrat Issa was the word of God, which was inspired in bibi Maryam and was a special soul from God. Question is what is the relationship between the Kalima and the Ruh ie. the word and the soul.

The word symbolizes guidance, knowledge and the use of intellect in faith.

In His Speech at the Opening Session of Word of God, Art of Man: The Quran and its Creative Expressions; at the Ismaili Center London, Mowlana HazarImam elaborates on the concept of knowledge and it's purpose when talking about Sayyedna Nasir Khusraw as:
"Poetising the Prophets teaching, Nasir Khusraw, the 11th century Iranian poet-philosopher, also extols the virtue of knowledge. For him, true jihad is the war that must be waged against the perpetrators of bigotry, through spreading knowledge that dispels the darkness of ignorance and nourishes the seed of peace that is innately embedded in the human soul".

From the above we can see that knowledge and wisdom is the food of the soul.

Reply,

Can we equate the WORD with IMAM, as you mentioned the word symbolizes
guidance, knowledge, and the use of intellect in faith?

[agakhani_1]

How the H.israel sieze the soul of an individuals?
Ismaili ginans are full with this kind information.
Not all person death are similars! its all depends on the good and bad deeds of the person! Many peraons have to face lots of pains when angel seize the soul and many persons do not have to face any pains at all!
Many peoples knows that when they will die! Even they knows what day and time?
Many ismailis has seen and loudly souted that mowla is come here to pick me!
According prophet the isreal seize the soul of a good person like he pulled out a hair from a bowl of yogurt but the bad peoples soul has to face lots of punishment. prophet give a example of a thorn tree, if you spread a Reshmi cloth on the top of that thorn tree and if you pull that cloth from one side and the condition happens to that cloth same condition happens to a bad guys!
If you do not hate other religions literatures then,I have a list of books in which you can find very interesting facts , what actually happens when angel come to pick ruh?
How the ruh sized? What happens after death? Is reincarnation is real? person can know when he will die? What is moksha/asal me wasal? Are their any another planets there, where deceased person can take birth?

Few ginans,pops up in my mind right now!
Eji swarg log mahe thi viman aavya ane pohchya te Pele par re.

Eji pehla lidha das darwaja ne pacchi lidha kaya kero koat
For further information read ginans!
if you have a question then ginans has a answer no joke!

[junglikhan4]

The Quran says," Indeed Jesus Christ the son of Maryam was Rasulullah and the Kalima ( Word ) which He bestowed on Maryam and there in the Ruh (Soul)
Al Nisa, 171.
The Quran reveals that Hazrat Issa was the word of God, which was inspired in bibi Maryam and was a special soul from God. Question is what is the relationship between the Kalima and the Ruh ie. the word and the soul.

The word symbolizes guidance, knowledge and the use of intellect in faith.

In His Speech at the Opening Session of Word of God, Art of Man: The Quran and its Creative Expressions; at the Ismaili Center London, Mowlana HazarImam elaborates on the concept of knowledge and it's purpose when talking about Sayyedna Nasir Khusraw as:
"Poetising the Prophets teaching, Nasir Khusraw, the 11th century Iranian poet-philosopher, also extols the virtue of knowledge. For him, true jihad is the war that must be waged against the perpetrators of bigotry, through spreading knowledge that dispels the darkness of ignorance and nourishes the seed of peace that is innately embedded in the human soul".

From the above we can see that knowledge and wisdom is the food of the soul.

In the Ginan: Abdu Jugat Jol Santosh patra karo, it is stated:

abadhu jugat jol sa(n)tosh paatra karo
ane dda(n)ddaa karo beechaar(veechaar)
khameeyaa dayaakee doy mu(n)ddhr pahero
geenaan karjo aahaar

abadhu te jogee jugamaa(n)he, jaako man dujaare naa(n)hee
abadhu te jogee jugamaa(n)he...............................1

O slave! Make the begging (for grace) bowl the Path with care and contentment,
and let the thought process and reflection be the stirring stick.
Wear the two earings of patience and mercy. Let the 'geenaans' to be your food.
O slave! The sage in this world is the one, whose heart is free from matters (other than faith and religion).

In one of the speeches Prince Amyn explained the relationship between the word and God and how the word enables one to attain spiritual enlightenment. The speech can be accessed at:

http://ismaili.net/speech/8901amyn.html

Quote:

Legibility, in fact, becomes of minor importance, since calligraphy always conveys and constitutes by its very essence the central symbol of Faith. The attitude that the intrinsic meaning or content is secondary to the beauty, i.e. to the form and the abstraction of the letters considered as artistic composition, can lead one to positions not far distant from the "art for art's sake" school of the West, so many centuries later. Abu'l Fazal who wrote the Akbar Nama, says that, "the written letter is spiritual geometry emanating from the pen of invention". A closeness to Plato's view that writing is the geometry of the soul is evident.

Reply,

Other way of looking at the question.
In the Gospel of John, it is written," In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 1/1 Gospel of John. The relation between the Word and the Soul is that the Supreme Soul, which is Holy Spirit, is hidden in the Supreme name(Word). This Supreme name or Word was given to bibi Maryam and it is in this sense that the God breathed the Holy Spirit in her.

[junglikhan4]

How the H.israel sieze the soul of an individuals?
Ismaili ginans are full with this kind information.
Not all person death are similars! its all depends on the good and bad deeds of the person! Many peraons have to face lots of pains when angel seize the soul and many persons do not have to face any pains at all!
Many peoples knows that when they will die! Even they knows what day and time?
Many ismailis has seen and loudly souted that mowla is come here to pick me!
According prophet the isreal seize the soul of a good person like he pulled out a hair from a bowl of yogurt but the bad peoples soul has to face lots of punishment. prophet give a example of a thorn tree, if you spread a Reshmi cloth on the top of that thorn tree and if you pull that cloth from one side and the condition happens to that cloth same condition happens to a bad guys!
If you do not hate other religions literatures then,I have a list of books in which you can find very interesting facts , what actually happens when angel come to pick ruh?
How the ruh sized? What happens after death? Is reincarnation is real? person can know when he will die? What is moksha/asal me wasal? Are their any another planets there, where deceased person can take birth?

Few ginans,pops up in my mind right now!
Eji swarg log mahe thi viman aavya ane pohchya te Pele par re.

Eji pehla lidha das darwaja ne pacchi lidha kaya kero koat
For further information read ginans!
if you have a question then ginans has a answer no joke!

Reply,

The state of seizing the soul is that Izra'el enters the body of the dying person and recites the great name ( Ism e Azam). With his miraculous voice the particles of the soul start to move towards the head and is centered in the brain. As a result of this, the state of death starts from the feet and the soul gradually leaves the body through the upper part of head.

[junglikhan4]

Souls are creation of God. Do scientists approach God to seek permission to induce souls in cloning items (chickens, animals, and humans) or cloning machines are doing themselves. In this sense machines and scientists are
God. Soul can not enter body without permission of God. Is this not a strange thing!

[junglikhan4]

I have noticed averagely about 100 persons are visiting this heritage site, but only few are debating the issues. I shall encourage the readers of this site to involve in healthy discussions, they should spread the knowledge and wisdom.
They should speak their minds by writing and sharing their views. There is a maxim of Mowla Ali," Speak up ( your mind) so that you should be recognized."
IIS and ITERB should allow their personnel, waizeen, teachers, high classes
students, scholars and other capable staff to participate in discussions. Other learned Ismaili scholars and interested people should share their knowledge.
Hope this will increase the traffic on this site.

[Admin]

I have noticed averagely about 100 persons

I don't know where you take your stats but certainely they are not accurate. We have tens of thousands of visitors from 90 countries every single day. Not everyone is interested in the Forum. 54% of the visitors are sent from the search engines such as google and yahoo because they are looking for something specific which they read and leave without visiting the Forum ever.

[junglikhan4]

I have noticed averagely about 100 persons

I don't know where you take your stats but certainely they are not accurate. We have tens of thousands of visitors from 90 countries every single day. Not everyone is interested in the Forum. 54% of the visitors are sent from the search engines such as google and yahoo because they are looking for something specific which they read and leave without visiting the Forum ever.

Thanx for information that this site has thousands of visitors every single day.
In my mind was ismaili visitors and I calculated from ' currently on line users'
on front page, also I assumed there should be repeated Ismaili readers on site
on daily basis.

[kmaherali]

[Reply,

The state of seizing the soul is that Izra'el enters the body of the dying person and recites the great name ( Ism e Azam). With his miraculous voice the particles of the soul start to move towards the head and is centered in the brain. As a result of this, the state of death starts from the feet and the soul gradually leaves the body through the upper part of head.

In the Ginan: Sami Raajo Aave jangi Dhol bajaave, it is stated:

ejee kaayaa nagaree maa(n) ek chor ddhu(n)ke(chhupe) chhe
ddhu(n)kataa(n) kene nave deetthaa - re ho praannee-aa.......5

In the town of your body, there is a thief (angel of death),
moving very discretely. Because of the discrete nature of the movements, no one has been able to perceive it.

ejee pahelaa leedhaa kott veeraa nav darvaajaa
pachhe leedho kaayaa kero ha(n)saa - re ho praannee-aa.......6

(This is how the process of natural death occurs through the angel of death)
At first it will steal the hut(bodily cage), i.e., it will make it weak and
incapable to perform it's normal tasks. Then it will gradually render the nine opening viz-a-viz two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, mouth, anus, penis (vagina) inactive.
Then finally it will take away the soul of the body.

ejee lu(n)ttee teree nagaree veeraa huire chobaaree
khetra khaddasalaa hu-aa - re ho praannee-aa.................7

Through plunder, your town, brother, has been changed to a desert.
The productive land has become barren.

ejee maattee meettaddee maa(n)he reeddee bheeddee jaayshe
kalar khaayshe teree dehaa - re ho praannee-aa...............8

Your body will mix with dust (after being buried) and the flesh
will be eaten away by the saltish soil.

[kmaherali]

Souls are creation of God. Do scientists approach God to seek permission to induce souls in cloning items (chickens, animals, and humans) or cloning machines are doing themselves. In this sense machines and scientists are
God. Soul can not enter body without permission of God. Is this not a strange thing!

MSMS says in his Memoirs:

"Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God. But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us."

From the above statement we can see that soul exists in every part of creation. Hence it is not confined to human beings only. It makes no difference to the soul whether is is concieved through natural means or whether is concieved and manipulated by technology. There can be lots of benefits of using technology...

There is an interesting article on the use of technology in creation of human beings at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/05/opini ... ?th&emc=th

[kmaherali]

Other way of looking at the question.
In the Gospel of John, it is written," In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 1/1 Gospel of John. The relation between the Word and the Soul is that the Supreme Soul, which is Holy Spirit, is hidden in the Supreme name(Word). This Supreme name or Word was given to bibi Maryam and it is in this sense that the God breathed the Holy Spirit in her.

In the Ginans, the concept is expressed differently.

In the Ginan: Ad thaki ek sun nipaya, it is stated:

aad thakee ek soon nipaayaa
tare soon ma(n)thee shabda neepaayaa
jugesar jog kaa maram koi na jaanne
jog kaa maram jugesar jaanne...........................jogkaa.....1

In the beginning a void(nihilistic) was created, from it the word
(guarded tablet, prophetic light) was created.O true worshipper,
nobody understands the inner mysteries of faith except a true yogi
(saint, worshipper).

Hence the word representing the Divine Intellect was the first thing that was created.

In the sloko nano verse it is stated:

satgur kahere nure meendar samaareeyaa
ane nure rachyo aasmaan
te nur maanhethee nur pragatteeyaa
tenu satgur chhe naam re.........................10

The True Guide says: The world originated from the light, and the heavens were created from the light. From the (primordial) light, light manifested. It's name is the True Guide(Pir).

From the above verse we can see that there are two levels of Light. There is the Light of the Formless Divine Essence from which the Light of Divine Intellect emanates and it's mazhar is the Pir. Hence the word is also the Pir through whom one attains the Imam (Essence).

[junglikhan4]

[Reply,

The state of seizing the soul is that Izra'el enters the body of the dying person and recites the great name ( Ism e Azam). With his miraculous voice the particles of the soul start to move towards the head and is centered in the brain. As a result of this, the state of death starts from the feet and the soul gradually leaves the body through the upper part of head.

In the Ginan: Sami Raajo Aave jangi Dhol bajaave, it is stated:

ejee kaayaa nagaree maa(n) ek chor ddhu(n)ke(chhupe) chhe
ddhu(n)kataa(n) kene nave deetthaa - re ho praannee-aa.......5

In the town of your body, there is a thief (angel of death),
moving very discretely. Because of the discrete nature of the movements, no one has been able to perceive it.

ejee pahelaa leedhaa kott veeraa nav darvaajaa
pachhe leedho kaayaa kero ha(n)saa - re ho praannee-aa.......6

(This is how the process of natural death occurs through the angel of death)
At first it will steal the hut(bodily cage), i.e., it will make it weak and
incapable to perform it's normal tasks. Then it will gradually render the nine opening viz-a-viz two eyes, two ears, two nostrils, mouth, anus, penis (vagina) inactive.
Then finally it will take away the soul of the body.

ejee lu(n)ttee teree nagaree veeraa huire chobaaree
khetra khaddasalaa hu-aa - re ho praannee-aa.................7

Through plunder, your town, brother, has been changed to a desert.
The productive land has become barren.

ejee maattee meettaddee maa(n)he reeddee bheeddee jaayshe
kalar khaayshe teree dehaa - re ho praannee-aa...............8

Your body will mix with dust (after being buried) and the flesh
will be eaten away by the saltish soil.

Reply,
It is true.

TELL ME NOT IN MOURNFUL NUMBERS
LIFE IS BUT AN EMPTY DREAM
FOR THE SOUL IS DEAD THAT SLUMBERS
AND THE THINGS ARE NOT WHAT THEY SEEM
LIFE IS REAL LIFE IS EARNEST
AND GRAVE IS NOT ITS GOAL
DUST THOU ART TO DUST RETURNST
WAS NOT SPOKEN OF THE SOUL

LONG FELLOW

[junglikhan4]

Other way of looking at the question.
In the Gospel of John, it is written," In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." 1/1 Gospel of John. The relation between the Word and the Soul is that the Supreme Soul, which is Holy Spirit, is hidden in the Supreme name(Word). This Supreme name or Word was given to bibi Maryam and it is in this sense that the God breathed the Holy Spirit in her.

In the Ginans, the concept is expressed differently.

In the Ginan: Ad thaki ek sun nipaya, it is stated:

aad thakee ek soon nipaayaa
tare soon ma(n)thee shabda neepaayaa
jugesar jog kaa maram koi na jaanne
jog kaa maram jugesar jaanne...........................jogkaa.....1

In the beginning a void(nihilistic) was created, from it the word
(guarded tablet, prophetic light) was created.O true worshipper,
nobody understands the inner mysteries of faith except a true yogi
(saint, worshipper).

Hence the word representing the Divine Intellect was the first thing that was created.


Reply,

I consider the above part of Jugesar as explanation of what Mowla Murtaza Ali said," ANA NUKTATULLATI TAHTAL BY BISMILLAH".

[junglikhan4]

Souls are creation of God. Do scientists approach God to seek permission to induce souls in cloning items (chickens, animals, and humans) or cloning machines are doing themselves. In this sense machines and scientists are
God. Soul can not enter body without permission of God. Is this not a strange thing!

MSMS says in his Memoirs:

"Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God. But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us."

From the above statement we can see that soul exists in every part of creation. Hence it is not confined to human beings only. It makes no difference to the soul whether is is concieved through natural means or whether is concieved and manipulated by technology. There can be lots of benefits of using technology...

There is an interesting article on the use of technology in creation of human beings at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/05/opini ... ?th&emc=th

Reply,

MSMS is correct because in every particle there is noor of God or soul of God.
In one farman MSMS said," Pathar ma bhi ruh chhey." The stones or trees can not move on their own. My question is about 'haywan e natiq ' or 'insan e natiq'. Take example of IVF, THE TEST TUBE BABY. She was born without defects, talking, walking,dancing baby. My particular question was about the
human soul which she carried, and it is only granted by God, that's why I asked the question does the doctors, scientists, and machines are becoming God? or they have entered in the domain of God. The things which sufis and saints were unable to do are done by doctors and scientists and still we are fighting on shariyat!!

[kmaherali]

TELL ME NOT IN MOURNFUL NUMBERS
LIFE IS BUT AN EMPTY DREAM
FOR THE SOUL IS DEAD THAT SLUMBERS
AND THE THINGS ARE NOT WHAT THEY SEEM
LIFE IS REAL LIFE IS EARNEST
AND GRAVE IS NOT ITS GOAL
DUST THOU ART TO DUST RETURNST
WAS NOT SPOKEN OF THE SOUL

LONG FELLOW

Yes the destiny of the soul is different then the destiny of the body. There is a verse of the Ginan: Bhaaio Bharame na Bhuliye which states:

ejee aatmaa neergunn bhrahm chhe, dehee chhe taralaa ne ghaas
nur satgur boleeyaa munivar, karjo aatmaa abheeyaas
bhaai-o...................................................16

The destiny of the soul is towards the formless Creator and the destiny of the body is under the reeds and grass. Nur Satgur has said, O momins contemplate upon the development or progress of the soul continuosly.

[kmaherali]

My particular question was about the
human soul which she carried, and it is only granted by God, that's why I asked the question does the doctors, scientists, and machines are becoming God? or they have entered in the domain of God. The things which sufis and saints were unable to do are done by doctors and scientists and still we are fighting on shariyat!!

MHI in one of his Farmans has said:

"In the concept of Islam, Allah is eternal, His creation knows no limit in time, nor in form and as a result He creates when He will, when He wishes, when He wills, how he wishes, where He wishes and man's perception of science is therefore nothing more than the perception of God's creation."

So the scientists have become agents of God's creation. God can decide to create through natural means or can decide to create through technology and science. It does not effect the soul.

The Sufis and advanced souls of all traditions have been able to create things simply through the act of will. However, generally they will not display such 'skills' for general public. They will only do that in restricted situations. Mowlana Rumi was able to bring a dead person to life as per anecdote below...

A Celebration of Death!

Rumi's favorite flute player, Hamza, happened to die. Rumi sent some dervishes with grave-clothes to prepare the body. He himself came later to the house. As he entered the room, he spoke to Hamza, "Dear friend, get up!" And immediately Hamza sat up saying, "I'm here!" He reached for his flute, and for three days and nights sweet music came from that house. When Rumi left, life went from the corpse again, and he was buried.

Source: Say I Am You RUMI
Poetry Interspersed with Stories of Rumi and Shams translated by John Moyne and Coleman Barkes

[junglikhan4]

In Adam's time, there were no cars, no planes, no cell phones, no watches, no computers, no heating and cooling systems, no electricity, no large scale manufacturing systems. Was Adam brainless at that time. I think Adam had same size of brain as today a 6 ft person has. Today we are better off in new era in comparison to time of Adam.The new brain is sharp, more faster, better G bites of memory storage in brain. Looks like God started slowly and now he has gained speed.

[Admin]

Is your soul more happy than Adam's in his time.

Comparison has to be made not in term of comfort but in term of happiness.

An intelligent person is one that knows how to be happier tomorrow more than today but are we really happier then Adam or people in his time? we may be more comfortable but happier? I doubt...

God gives to man what he has been asked for. More people ask for comfort, less for happiness because people mix both concepts and they end up miserably lonely and sad.