QUL

[shivaathervedi]

I wander you wrote,"He ( Pir Shihabuddin ) was Pir for 4 years and therefore it would be difficult to judge some one's ideas based on 4 years and only one book." Strange, it sounds like because he was Pir for 4 years and wrote just a one treatise that's why he was an un experienced Pir!! Are you categorizing Pirs, one superior than other, or lacking in experience and not of caliber like Pir Sadardin or Pir Hasan Kabiruddin? Age difference does not reduce the status of Pir. In status, a 3 month Pir is same as 120 years Pir, Am I right?.

You are absolutely right. When a Pir is appointed he is fully qualified for the position. Pir Shahbudin's son was appointed Pir as a baby. But when one makes a statement that he changed course based on one work only without understanding of all his activities including him reciting the Old Dua infront of the Imam, then it is totally inappropriate.

That what MSMS did, in 1945 he sternly declined but in 1950 he changed Aliyullah himself. So it was according to your explanation ' times changes so the the form of faith changes'. ( these are your words ).

What has the change to Aliyullah got to do with Hindu Mythology. Did the Imam indicate that with the change to Aliyullah we will not have Hindu mythology?

My answer to your your following question is;
" Did he compromise on the concept of Ali Allah?"
Please read the Paragraphs which I posted on page 3 from Risala,
Imam Hussain's Giryah, He implored to Allah, " I wanted to see thy VISION of thy PERFECTION........"
Pir Shihabuddin wrote, the commander of the faithfuls, ALI said," I would NEVER worship GOD if I had not seen Him."
He starts the first topic by writing," Lord of lords, Mowla Ali 'UPON WHOM BE THE BLESSINGS OF GOD ( which God? ).
For Imam Aga Ali shah, he has used the words " Hazrat i Shahinshah i Aga Ali Shah OR Hazrat i Mowla.

MHI in his public speeches says Bis millahir Rahmanir Rahim and reads speeches. When he makes Farmans he begins with My Dear Spiritual Children and he does not read.

It is a matter of context and audience. There is no compromise on Ali Allah.

You cleverly dodged my question about your quote; You wrote in one of your postings," But times changed and the FORM of our FAITH changed, that is the REASON why we have Hazar Imam to interpret FAITH according to times."
Karim is this not your quote? Now understand what I wrote in the context of your quote. Above quote is yours accept it or dismiss it.

In reply to your counter question you asked,"When one makes a statement that he changed the course based on one work only without understanding of all his activities....", Karim I gave you proofs from the Risala which Imam has not banned so far. Proofs are; GIRIYAH of Imam Hussain, the statement of Mowla Ali and for mentioning about Mowla Ali ' upon whom be the blessings of Allah'.....
Hazar Imam's mostly speeches are written by speech writers, he guided them about the ideas and his input. Then he review the speech and discuss with the writers before delivering.
Are the Ismailis only his dear spiritual children minus 7+ billion human beings!!
The audience of Risala e Dar Haqqiqat e Din were and are followers of Imam. Pir Shihabuddin wrote in the very first paragraph," Some brothern in religion whose desire I regard myself obliged to fulfill, have asked me to write a concise book which should serve them as a capital of salvation in the life after death, and as a guide on the right way...."

[Admin]

I am dying to see the old manuscripts, correspondence, classified Farmans of MSMS and Shah Karim and Asal Du'a. So far I am unable to find copy of Asal Du'a. According to you, in what year Pir Shihabuddin recited Asal Du'a in presence of Imam Ali Shah?

Aga Ali Shah was Pir up to 1882 when he appointed Pir Shihabuddin Shah as Pir.

Pir Shihabuddin Shah dies in 1884

So I would assume the Dua was recited by Pir Shihabuddin Shah around 1883.

However there are at least 2 manuscripts to verify. Aga Ali Shah is asking in one of them to the Pir to "teach" Dua to the Jamat and the scribe note down the Dua as recited by the Pir in presence of the Imam at that occasion.

The other manuscript does not say he "taught" the Dua but the scribe said he "recited" the Dua in Imam's presence. Exact dates and places mentioned in both manuscripts will be interesting to compare.

The Farman of Aga Ali Shah preceding the recitation says "Why don't you recite the Dua? I know why you don't recite the Dua, it is because you do not know how to recite it. I am asking Pir Shihabuddin Shah to recite the Dua to you now"

[kmaherali]

Karim I gave you proofs from the Risala which Imam has not banned so far. Proofs are; GIRIYAH of Imam Hussain, the statement of Mowla Ali and for mentioning about Mowla Ali ' upon whom be the blessings of Allah'........."

But you can't be sure what kind of audience the Imam had 1400 years ago. If the Imam has used references to Allah then the audience would be the kind that required that expression. But we know based on Imam's current actions that he expresses himself differently with different audieces.

Are the Ismailis only his dear spiritual children minus 7+ billion human beings!!...."

You mean that he should address everyone as his spiritual children?Ask zznoor if she would like to be addressed as the spiritual child of the Imam.

The audience of Risala e Dar Haqqiqat e Din were and are followers of Imam. Pir Shihabuddin wrote in the very first paragraph," Some brothern in religion whose desire I regard myself obliged to fulfill, have asked me to write a concise book which should serve them as a capital of salvation in the life after death, and as a guide on the right way...."

The audience of the Risala is Ismaili, but the references about the previous Imam's may not have Ismaili audiences - Imam Husein and Imam Ali. We can't be sure about that.

[zznoor]

But you can't be sure what kind of audience the Imam had 1400 years ago. If the Imam has used references to Allah then the audience would be the kind that required that expression. But we know based on Imam's current actions that he expresses himself differently with different audieces.

KBhai
ASAK
Are you insinuating that Hz Ali RA was a Hippocrate or practicing Takiya?
Did Prophet SAW said one thing to Sahabas, another thing to Munaficins (Hippocrates) and third thing to Kafird ( unbelievers in Islam)?

[Admin]

Yes he said unto you your faith and to me mine. Obviously he would not hurt the feeling of anyone and would talk to different people in different way.

You sentence about hypocrisy does not make any sense.

[kmaherali]

KBhai
ASAK
Are you insinuating that Hz Ali RA was a Hippocrate or practicing Takiya?
Did Prophet SAW said one thing to Sahabas, another thing to Munaficins (Hippocrates) and third thing to Kafird ( unbelievers in Islam)?

ASAK zznoor

The Prophet was the Perfect Teacher. A Perfect teacher speaks according to the capacity of the audience. The Qur'an was revealed to mankind consisting of a diversity of backgrounds and understanding. Hence to some he was only a normal human being receiving and transmitting passively the revelations:

Say: I do not say: 'With me are the treasures of God' and I do not know the Invisible, and I do not say that I am an angel - I follow only that which is revealed to me. (Sura 6:50)

To others of Sufi inclinations he was Divine:

God taught Adam the names (Sura 2:30), thus He taught Muhammad the Qur'an (Sura 96:3); Muhammad was sent as a Mercy for the worlds - rahmatan lil-aalamin (Sura 21: 107); there are several places equating obedience to the Prophet as being equal to obedience to God - Obey God and obey His messenger.

I hope this will make you understand different behavior and expression of the Imam according to context and understanding.

Salaam

[shivaathervedi]

Karim I gave you proofs from the Risala which Imam has not banned so far. Proofs are; GIRIYAH of Imam Hussain, the statement of Mowla Ali and for mentioning about Mowla Ali ' upon whom be the blessings of Allah'........."

But you can't be sure what kind of audience the Imam had 1400 years ago. If the Imam has used references to Allah then the audience would be the kind that required that expression. But we know based on Imam's current actions that he expresses himself differently with different audieces.

Are the Ismailis only his dear spiritual children minus 7+ billion human beings!!...."

You mean that he should address everyone as his spiritual children?Ask zznoor if she would like to be addressed as the spiritual child of the Imam.

The audience of Risala e Dar Haqqiqat e Din were and are followers of Imam. Pir Shihabuddin wrote in the very first paragraph," Some brothern in religion whose desire I regard myself obliged to fulfill, have asked me to write a concise book which should serve them as a capital of salvation in the life after death, and as a guide on the right way...."

The audience of the Risala is Ismaili, but the references about the previous Imam's may not have Ismaili audiences - Imam Husein and Imam Ali. We can't be sure about that.

Karim, once again you dodged and neglected my question about your quote.
Let me quote again your GOLDEN WORDS;
" But times changed and the FORM of our FAITH changed, that is the reason why we have Hazar Imam to interpret Faith according to time."
Your words are crucial," times changed and the FORM OF FAITH CHANGED."
Please be honest are these your words or not?

[shivaathervedi]

Karim I gave you proofs from the Risala which Imam has not banned so far. Proofs are; GIRIYAH of Imam Hussain, the statement of Mowla Ali and for mentioning about Mowla Ali ' upon whom be the blessings of Allah'........."

But you can't be sure what kind of audience the Imam had 1400 years ago. If the Imam has used references to Allah then the audience would be the kind that required that expression. But we know based on Imam's current actions that he expresses himself differently with different audieces.

Are the Ismailis only his dear spiritual children minus 7+ billion human beings!!...."

You mean that he should address everyone as his spiritual children?Ask zznoor if she would like to be addressed as the spiritual child of the Imam.

The audience of Risala e Dar Haqqiqat e Din were and are followers of Imam. Pir Shihabuddin wrote in the very first paragraph," Some brothern in religion whose desire I regard myself obliged to fulfill, have asked me to write a concise book which should serve them as a capital of salvation in the life after death, and as a guide on the right way...."

The audience of the Risala is Ismaili, but the references about the previous Imam's may not have Ismaili audiences - Imam Husein and Imam Ali. We can't be sure about that.

1400 hundred years back, before Imam Ja'far Sadiq the word Ismaili historically was not in use, instead it was Shi'an Ali. Group of Ali or followers of Ali. Imam never lies. The audience was Muslim and his followers. The Giriyah of Imam Hussain and his speech was in front of his family members and die hard followers.
What Mowla Ali said was repeated not only by Pir Shihabuddin but same words uttered by MSMS recorded in KIM. Mowla Ali said," I would NEVER WORSHIP GOD if I had not seen him." The audience of MSMS was his Ismail followers.

In reply to my question about Spiritual Children, you unnecessary diverted it to ZZ Noor!! You say Ali is Allah, all human beings are creation of Allah, so is this not an example of discrimination that 15 million will go above AAKASH and 7 Billion will go down in PAATAAL!

Sure audience of Pir Shihabuddin WAS and IS followers of Imam. Pir should not in first place had quoted these statements by Imam Ali and by Imam Hussian if they were wrong statements.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad.
These are 05 level one sees and assume/believe ALI/MHI/GOD.
Ahle kitabo liye hai alaa musalman tuhi.
Shatiati ko khalif tuhi.
Tariqato ka Imam tuhi.
Haqiqat ka imaan tuhi.
Marifat me tuhi tuhi( one own self ceases to exist).

In same with very common element like water.
To a child is water is what he drink, bathes,etc.
To a primary school child is is H2O.
to high school student it values as ice ,steam to for humanity use.
To intelligent scientist is further scope in hydrology & ocean
And there are 50 Thesis on it.
To a genius it like fuel to make hydrogen fuel cells from it.
To a Sufi poet ,it life sustaining blessing of God,he see its as facet of noir.bcoz without it no human,plants or animal can survive.
Each of these levels of reality present on earth appx 7 billions
Consider each other liar or hypocrites based on each's own irrevocable understanding of water.
In same way Imam speak out to diffrent level.
It will sound contradicting or double toungue.
One has have belief that one is true statement ,other can be relatively true word and some would be ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
if HZ ALI said he is the creator, then he is seen himself praying to Allah,writing letters etc.
Is same way MHI has said that he is bearer or noir,spiritual father to whole of humanity.
Alsoo seen and saying Inshallah ,I pray for you.
This foxes even IT engineer of low end lawyer.
Either he is telling lies somewhere
or different level of truth.
This is precisely on one's belief in him.
If I give a lecture to PhD holders on water.
and say water study should stop at level of understanding of a nursery child. and not to research further from intellect to genius Kevel.( level 5 going to 6)/
ifeel both zznoor and living creature are right ,but they should reassign themselves to their levels of website.
IMAM SMS has said few time to ignore the braying and barking of zahiri ignorant.
ALI BLESS YOU ALL as level of what one thinks of him[/u]

[shivaathervedi]

I am dying to see the old manuscripts, correspondence, classified Farmans of MSMS and Shah Karim and Asal Du'a. So far I am unable to find copy of Asal Du'a. According to you, in what year Pir Shihabuddin recited Asal Du'a in presence of Imam Ali Shah?

Aga Ali Shah was Pir up to 1882 when he appointed Pir Shihabuddin Shah as Pir.

Pir Shihabuddin Shah dies in 1884

So I would assume the Dua was recited by Pir Shihabuddin Shah around 1883.

However there are at least 2 manuscripts to verify. Aga Ali Shah is asking in one of them to the Pir to "teach" Dua to the Jamat and the scribe note down the Dua as recited by the Pir in presence of the Imam at that occasion.

The other manuscript does not say he "taught" the Dua but the scribe said he "recited" the Dua in Imam's presence. Exact dates and places mentioned in both manuscripts will be interesting to compare.

The Farman of Aga Ali Shah preceding the recitation says "Why don't you recite the Dua? I know why you don't recite the Dua, it is because you do not know how to recite it. I am asking Pir Shihabuddin Shah to recite the Dua to you now"

Thanks for your information. I wished tape recorder should have been invented at time of Imam Shah Hasan Ali Shah.
There are flaws in scribe's statements. The Asl Du'a by Pir Sadardin was already in use and that was in Gujrati and Sindhi spoken by jamaits of that time, I don't think there could have been difficulty in pronunciation. Did Pir corrected pronunciation? OR was that some other prayer in Arabic?

[Admin]

The tape recorder at the time of Imam Aga Ali Shah was not lesser in quality than the tape recorder at Prophet Muhammad's time.

And to correct your misperception, the Asal Dua was not in Gujrati, it was a blend of many languages including Arabic and Farsi.

[kmaherali]

What Mowla Ali said was repeated not only by Pir Shihabuddin but same words uttered by MSMS recorded in KIM. Mowla Ali said," I would NEVER WORSHIP GOD if I had not seen him." The audience of MSMS was his Ismail followers..

An ordinary person cannot see God. Only a person who has become God through spiritual elevation and see God through the eyes of God. Therefore if HA has seen God, it is God seeing God. There is no more duality. The worshipper and the worshipped become one.

Pir Sadardeen was also able to see God in this manner as per verse:

sakhee kahevaa sareekho nathee ke maaro saamee jee re
eto jovaa sareekho chhe alakh anaamee re.........................12

O beloved ones, my Lord (attained through this experience) does
not bear any telling (as He is undescribable) and He is nameless.
He can only be seen or experienced.

In reply to my question about Spiritual Children, you unnecessary diverted it to ZZ Noor!! You say Ali is Allah, all human beings are creation of Allah, so is this not an example of discrimination that 15 million will go above AAKASH and 7 Billion will go down in PAATAAL!.

There is always going to be a difference between a murid who recites Dua 3 times a day, attends JK and listens to Farmans and Ginans regularly on the one hand and a non-murid who does not do any of the above. The Imam has to differentiate between the two categories.

Sure audience of Pir Shihabuddin WAS and IS followers of Imam. Pir should not in first place had quoted these statements by Imam Ali and by Imam Hussian if they were wrong statements.

They were not wrong statements. They were statements made top different audience. But why do you keep referring to the Imam's statements 1400 years ago? Does not the present Imam's actions and words satisfy you? We know from the present Imam that he expresses himself differently.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
Which famous personality said this or akin to it ?
Never get into debate with an ignorant,that person will bring you down to it's level and defeat you.
It is said that Jesus Christ changed his path and avoided which was with ignorants.

[shivaathervedi]

I want to mention two important developments during Salgirah Mubarak majlis in JKs. One is regarding special prayers read or recited in all Jks. After reciting surah Kauthar, and starting with " ALL PRAISE IS DUE TO ALLAH............", the prayer goes like this," O ALLAH BLESS MUHAMAAD AL MUSTAFA, ALI AL MURTADHA, FATIMAT AZ ZAHRA, AL HASAN, AL HUSSAIN, THE PURE IMAMS, AND THE PROOF OF AUTHORITY, MASTER OF THE TIME AND AGE, OUR PRESENT LIVING IMAM OUR LORD SHAH KARIM AL HUSSAINI". This is the official prayer from higher command.
We pray to Allah for showering His blessings on the Prophet as well Mowla Ali, Bibi Fatima, Imam Hussain and Hazrat Hasan. On all pure Imams and on our present Imam Shah karim. Please note we pray to Allah for showering of blessings.
Other development was a letter from National council, I want to quote last paragraph." We pray almighty for good health and longer life of our beloved Hazar Imam so that he guides us for many many years to come."
Jamaits pray to who, obviously that is Allah, because we invoked Allah to shower His blessings on Ahl Bait and Imam.

[kmaherali]

I want to mention two important developments during Salgirah Mubarak majlis in JKs. One is regarding special prayers read or recited in all Jks. After reciting surah Kauthar, and starting with " ALL PRAISE IS DUE TO ALLAH............", the prayer goes like this," O ALLAH BLESS MUHAMAAD AL MUSTAFA, ALI AL MURTADHA, FATIMAT AZ ZAHRA, AL HASAN, AL HUSSAIN, THE PURE IMAMS, AND THE PROOF OF AUTHORITY, MASTER OF THE TIME AND AGE, OUR PRESENT LIVING IMAM OUR LORD SHAH KARIM AL HUSSAINI". This is the official prayer from higher command.
We pray to Allah for showering His blessings on the Prophet as well Mowla Ali, Bibi Fatima, Imam Hussain and Hazrat Hasan. On all pure Imams and on our present Imam Shah karim. Please note we pray to Allah for showering of blessings.
Other development was a letter from National council, I want to quote last paragraph." We pray almighty for good health and longer life of our beloved Hazar Imam so that he guides us for many many years to come."
Jamaits pray to who, obviously that is Allah, because we invoked Allah to shower His blessings on Ahl Bait and Imam.

This prayer was for the particular special occasion on the 80th birthday of the Imam. It was meant to be recited across all Jamats worldwide. For some Jamats it may be necessary to have that kind of prayer and hence it is adopted universally.

However in our daily tasbis and all the MK duas we still say Ya Hazar Imam tu....

Not make a big deal out of it.

[shivaathervedi]

I want to mention two important developments during Salgirah Mubarak majlis in JKs. One is regarding special prayers read or recited in all Jks. After reciting surah Kauthar, and starting with " ALL PRAISE IS DUE TO ALLAH............", the prayer goes like this," O ALLAH BLESS MUHAMAAD AL MUSTAFA, ALI AL MURTADHA, FATIMAT AZ ZAHRA, AL HASAN, AL HUSSAIN, THE PURE IMAMS, AND THE PROOF OF AUTHORITY, MASTER OF THE TIME AND AGE, OUR PRESENT LIVING IMAM OUR LORD SHAH KARIM AL HUSSAINI". This is the official prayer from higher command.
We pray to Allah for showering His blessings on the Prophet as well Mowla Ali, Bibi Fatima, Imam Hussain and Hazrat Hasan. On all pure Imams and on our present Imam Shah karim. Please note we pray to Allah for showering of blessings.
Other development was a letter from National council, I want to quote last paragraph." We pray almighty for good health and longer life of our beloved Hazar Imam so that he guides us for many many years to come."
Jamaits pray to who, obviously that is Allah, because we invoked Allah to shower His blessings on Ahl Bait and Imam.

This prayer was for the particular special occasion on the 80th birthday of the Imam. It was meant to be recited across all Jamats worldwide. For some Jamats it may be necessary to have that kind of prayer and hence it is adopted universally.

However in our daily tasbis and all the MK duas we still say Ya Hazar Imam tu....

Not make a big deal out of it.

Sure it is a big deal. You wrote, " Times changed accordingly Faith changed." (though you shy to discuss this). Therefore it is according to changing times that special prayer was initiated.

You wrote," we still say Ya Hazar Imam tu.....", this need to be changed, it is in contradiction against meaning of Du'a and prayers recited lately universally.

You wrote," For some jamaits it may be necessary to have that kind of prayer and hence it is adopted universally." Did some LIF leader mentioned you what you wrote to sooth some jamiaits? Our Imam is one, Tariqah is one, Imam call all his followers 'spiritual children' where ever they live, Du'a is one ( now days ), Pir is one. Once you quoted the Farman of Hazar Imam,
" Remember Allah through out the day."

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad:
Which famous personality said this or akin to it ?
Never get into debate with an ignorant,that person will bring you down to it's level and defeat you.
It is said that Jesus Christ changed his path and avoided which was with ignorants.

Brainless creature, it is not a question of defeat but debate and discussion.
2000 years back your spiritual papa came to guide mankind. If you say he ignored the ignorant and avoided debate to satisfy and explain them means he was failure in his mission. As prophet it was his job to guide on the right path.

[shivaathervedi]

The tape recorder at the time of Imam Aga Ali Shah was not lesser in quality than the tape recorder at Prophet Muhammad's time.

And to correct your misperception, the Asal Dua was not in Gujrati, it was a blend of many languages including Arabic and Farsi.

Blended of how many languages? The very original Du'a prescribed by Pir Sadardin is not available. If you claim to have then post it, why waiting?
According to my information MSMS changed Pir Sadardin's Du'a twice made some changes and induced some Arabic and Persian sentences. Third time MSMS gave complete Arabic text by disappearing 'devtas' of previous 3 jugs.

[shivaathervedi]

What Mowla Ali said was repeated not only by Pir Shihabuddin but same words uttered by MSMS recorded in KIM. Mowla Ali said," I would NEVER WORSHIP GOD if I had not seen him." The audience of MSMS was his Ismail followers..

An ordinary person cannot see God. Only a person who has become God through spiritual elevation and see God through the eyes of God. Therefore if HA has seen God, it is God seeing God. There is no more duality. The worshipper and the worshipped become one.

Pir Sadardeen was also able to see God in this manner as per verse:

sakhee kahevaa sareekho nathee ke maaro saamee jee re
eto jovaa sareekho chhe alakh anaamee re.........................12

O beloved ones, my Lord (attained through this experience) does
not bear any telling (as He is undescribable) and He is nameless.
He can only be seen or experienced.

In reply to my question about Spiritual Children, you unnecessary diverted it to ZZ Noor!! You say Ali is Allah, all human beings are creation of Allah, so is this not an example of discrimination that 15 million will go above AAKASH and 7 Billion will go down in PAATAAL!.

There is always going to be a difference between a murid who recites Dua 3 times a day, attends JK and listens to Farmans and Ginans regularly on the one hand and a non-murid who does not do any of the above. The Imam has to differentiate between the two categories.

Sure audience of Pir Shihabuddin WAS and IS followers of Imam. Pir should not in first place had quoted these statements by Imam Ali and by Imam Hussian if they were wrong statements.

They were not wrong statements. They were statements made top different audience. But why do you keep referring to the Imam's statements 1400 years ago? Does not the present Imam's actions and words satisfy you? We know from the present Imam that he expresses himself differently.

You wrote," IF HA ( Hazrat Ali ) has seen God, it is God seeing God", strange philosophy!! You are talking of two different entities, Hazrat Ali and Allah. So one God was seeing other God!! Did Pir Sadardin said that couplet of Ginan for Mowla Ali?

For humanity Hazar Imam used the Quranic phrase" NAFSUN WAHIDAH", all human beings are from Nafs e Wahidah, the Universal Soul. Means there is no differentiation soul wise in human beings. It does not matter if some one say 3 times prayers or 5 times. Goes to JK, Masjid, Temple, or Mandir.

Regarding tenets of Islam and Ismailism, Imam does not express differently.

[nuseri]

YA Ali madad.

Jesus was spiritual son of ALI/GOD and not papa.
If he would have wasted time on them,there would have been just 25% of Christians of what they are today.

I myself would not pray ,If I did not see God.
I would have become atheist ,although spiritual if were not been able to God.and pray to nothingness, formless.
I am

[kmaherali]

Sure it is a big deal. You wrote, " Times changed accordingly Faith changed." (though you shy to discuss this). Therefore it is according to changing times that special prayer was initiated.

You wrote," we still say Ya Hazar Imam tu.....", this need to be changed, it is in contradiction against meaning of Du'a and prayers recited lately universally.."

I remember hearing prayers of this kind in other milestone occasions such as 25,40, 50 of Imammat. This did not change our prayers. You are living in an illusion if you think our prayers will change.

" Remember Allah through out the day."

And he has also said remember the Imams...

[kmaherali]

You wrote," IF HA ( Hazrat Ali ) has seen God, it is God seeing God", strange philosophy!! You are talking of two different entities, Hazrat Ali and Allah. So one God was seeing other God!! Did Pir Sadardin said that couplet of Ginan for Mowla Ali?.

You think that HA saw God with his physical eyes! This absurd.

Yes once one attains Union, the distinction between You and I evaporates. Seeing is witnessing Unity. The curtain that separates is opened as per verses:

ejee hamtam preet ba(n)dhaanneeyaa(n), ane hamtam bolyaa bol
hamtam donu(n) saa(n)hiyaa ek hay
saa(n)hiyaa hamsu(n) paddadaa khol...........................4

I and You are bound by love, and I and You have given each other a word (promise). I and You Lord are one, Lord open the curtain (veil) for me (so that I may have Your Vision).

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23136

eji eso geenaan peer shamsh bolyaa
reekheesar jaannee saahebe padd-daa kholyaa..................10

O momins, this knowledge and wisdom is given by Peer Shamsh. The Lord(Imaam) removed the veil(covering the reality) upon knowing a genuine murid.

eji padd-daa khulyaa ne saahebe najare su meelee-aa
lakh choraasee naa feraa-j ttaleeyaa.........................11

O momin, by removing the veil the Lord was attained through the Spiritual Vision(Deedaar). The entire burden of the eighty four cycles of rebirth were wiped out upon attaining this Vision.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23126

For humanity Hazar Imam used the Quranic phrase" NAFSUN WAHIDAH", all human beings are from Nafs e Wahidah, the Universal Soul. Means there is no differentiation soul wise in human beings. It does not matter if some one say 3 times prayers or 5 times. Goes to JK, Masjid, Temple, or Mandir..

Yes we are created from one soul, but that does not make us all equal. If everyone was the same the world would be boring. There is strength in diversity as per Irshad:

"The plurality of the Muslim world is not just an irreversible historical fact, but it is a strength for which we must be grateful, and a strength that must be continuously harnessed to the building of the future with in the ethics of Islam. Any differences must be resolved through tolerance, through understanding, through compassion, through dialogue, through forgiveness, through generosity, all of which represent the ethics of Islam."(Salamieh, Syria Saturday, November 10, 2001 )

Regarding tenets of Islam and Ismailism, Imam does not express differently.

In his Hidayat to Professor Muscati MHI said:

"Now, to those having faith, we will not give them high scholastic things, but with highly educated people, we will talk to them with their level." (Guidance of Hazar Imam given during the holy audience granted to Prof. Jawad and Hon. Waez Raï Kassamali M.J. on the 4th and 5th of May 1965, Paris).

So the Imam expresses himself according to the capacity of individuals.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
As we have just thread into the word and status of Ignorance/Ignorant.
I wish to what our Imams/Pirs has said about this.
I remember a farman in which Imam SMS said ' Tamee dhor jevaa naa thau.'( can somebody complete it)
l definitely observe that level of ignorance as in percentage is that over 66 % in most postings.
Even MHI recently said that this world with it's educated,intellects and few geniuses as ' Clash of Ignorance''.
What did he mean.?

[shivaathervedi]

Sure it is a big deal. You wrote, " Times changed accordingly Faith changed." (though you shy to discuss this). Therefore it is according to changing times that special prayer was initiated.

You wrote," we still say Ya Hazar Imam tu.....", this need to be changed, it is in contradiction against meaning of Du'a and prayers recited lately universally.."

I remember hearing prayers of this kind in other milestone occasions such as 25,40, 50 of Imammat. This did not change our prayers. You are living in an illusion if you think our prayers will change.

" Remember Allah through out the day."

And he has also said remember the Imams...

I do not live in an illusion, my thinking is clear on Hidayat of Hazar Imam. By prayer if you mean Du'a then there is clear difference in Du'a of 1940's and after 1956. (according to your quote; Times changed, Faith changed). Why Imam kept saying 'learn the meaning of Du'a'. If by prayers you mean regular prayers after Du'a, then compare Satpunthi prayer with the way Afghans,Tajik,Chinese ,and Arab Ismailis pray. They do not say," Ya Hazar Imam tu.....". In my opinion the message in the special prayers recited on 13th Dec or prior is same as mentioned in Holy Du'a.

Yes we remember/recite the names of Imams but before that we Add," ALLAHUMA BI HAQQ I MOWLANA ALI, MOWLANAL HUSSAIN AND SO ON AND IN THE END WE RECITE NAME OF PRESENT IMAM." This is the same as mentioned in the prayers recited on 13th Dec.

[shivaathervedi]

YA Ali madad.

Jesus was spiritual son of ALI/GOD and not papa.
If he would have wasted time on them,there would have been just 25% of Christians of what they are today.

I myself would not pray ,If I did not see God.
I would have become atheist ,although spiritual if were not been able to God.and pray to nothingness, formless.
I am

Absent minded creature, you are lost as your post is lost. You wrote," Jesus was spiritual son of God." Ismailis are spiritual children, Are you, being a spiritual child equal to Jesus?
You do not recite Du'a, shows you do not want to see God but nothingness.

[shivaathervedi]

You wrote," IF HA ( Hazrat Ali ) has seen God, it is God seeing God", strange philosophy!! You are talking of two different entities, Hazrat Ali and Allah. So one God was seeing other God!! Did Pir Sadardin said that couplet of Ginan for Mowla Ali?.

You think that HA saw God with his physical eyes! This absurd.

Yes once one attains Union, the distinction between You and I evaporates. Seeing is witnessing Unity. The curtain that separates is opened as per verses:

ejee hamtam preet ba(n)dhaanneeyaa(n), ane hamtam bolyaa bol
hamtam donu(n) saa(n)hiyaa ek hay
saa(n)hiyaa hamsu(n) paddadaa khol...........................4

I and You are bound by love, and I and You have given each other a word (promise). I and You Lord are one, Lord open the curtain (veil) for me (so that I may have Your Vision).

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23136

eji eso geenaan peer shamsh bolyaa
reekheesar jaannee saahebe padd-daa kholyaa..................10

O momins, this knowledge and wisdom is given by Peer Shamsh. The Lord(Imaam) removed the veil(covering the reality) upon knowing a genuine murid.

eji padd-daa khulyaa ne saahebe najare su meelee-aa
lakh choraasee naa feraa-j ttaleeyaa.........................11

O momin, by removing the veil the Lord was attained through the Spiritual Vision(Deedaar). The entire burden of the eighty four cycles of rebirth were wiped out upon attaining this Vision.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23126

For humanity Hazar Imam used the Quranic phrase" NAFSUN WAHIDAH", all human beings are from Nafs e Wahidah, the Universal Soul. Means there is no differentiation soul wise in human beings. It does not matter if some one say 3 times prayers or 5 times. Goes to JK, Masjid, Temple, or Mandir..

Yes we are created from one soul, but that does not make us all equal. If everyone was the same the world would be boring. There is strength in diversity as per Irshad:

"The plurality of the Muslim world is not just an irreversible historical fact, but it is a strength for which we must be grateful, and a strength that must be continuously harnessed to the building of the future with in the ethics of Islam. Any differences must be resolved through tolerance, through understanding, through compassion, through dialogue, through forgiveness, through generosity, all of which represent the ethics of Islam."(Salamieh, Syria Saturday, November 10, 2001 )

Regarding tenets of Islam and Ismailism, Imam does not express differently.

In his Hidayat to Professor Muscati MHI said:

"Now, to those having faith, we will not give them high scholastic things, but with highly educated people, we will talk to them with their level." (Guidance of Hazar Imam given during the holy audience granted to Prof. Jawad and Hon. Waez Raï Kassamali M.J. on the 4th and 5th of May 1965, Paris).

So the Imam expresses himself according to the capacity of individuals.

Why are you writing HA and not clearly what you mean Hazrat Ali. You wrote God saw God means there were or are 2 Gods still seeing each other. When one is Hazrat Ali and other is Allah obviously these are 2 different entities. Do you believe in 2 God theory. Still if you say Imam is merged with God and become one unit does not mean Imam is God as Imam is Mazhar of God. There is difference in original and xerox copy. When a soul merges with Universal soul can't claim to be Universal soul.

The couplets of Ginans you mentioned is Pir's humble request to Imam as Mushid e Kamil for eternal salvation and union because Imam is intercessor.

The Islamic and Ismaili tenets mentioned in Preamble are same for all individuals whether male or female, rich or poor, educated or highly scholastic, Mukhi or leader, alijah or waris.

[nuseri]

YA Ali Madad.
We Ismailiis are blessed to be born as same status of Jesus Christ. Imam SMS has said you each one can Also become like Jesus Christ.
He is never the less utmost upragraded soul of Noor E Pirantan.SIT IN IBADAT TO FEEL IT.
I wish to know from scholars in last 130 years how many time imam SMS and MHI say this 1400 years outdated word QUL which is along side few hundred other Arabic words.
and how many time the word Ignorance/ ignorant was used by both the Imam.this word topic need to locked n into trash box.topic on Ignorance is the need of the hour.

[kmaherali]

Why are you writing HA and not clearly what you mean Hazrat Ali. You wrote God saw God means there were or are 2 Gods still seeing each other. When one is Hazrat Ali and other is Allah obviously these are 2 different entities. Do you believe in 2 God theory. Still if you say Imam is merged with God and become one unit does not mean Imam is God as Imam is Mazhar of God. There is difference in original and xerox copy. When a soul merges with Universal soul can't claim to be Universal soul..

When you a a friend to someone those superficial designations of respect melt away. You don't have to elaborate when the initials are obvious just as MHI means Mowlana Hazar Imam. In normal circumstances is it not possible to see yourself? In the same manner HA saw himself but with batini eyes not physical. There is only one God. We have been through why the Mazhar of God is also God himself. No need to start all over again.

The couplets of Ginans you mentioned is Pir's humble request to Imam as Mushid e Kamil for eternal salvation and union because Imam is intercessor..

In the couplets the Pir is asking to open the curtain of separation. He is NOT asking for intercession.

The Islamic and Ismaili tenets mentioned in Preamble are same for all individuals whether male or female, rich or poor, educated or highly scholastic, Mukhi or leader, alijah or waris.

The tenets are one, but their elaboration can have degrees depending upon individual capacity. On the issue of the Imam speaking different things to different audiences, there is a hadith of Imam al-Baqir:

There is a hadith of Imam al-Baqir (a.s.):
Zararah narrates that I asked a certain question to Imam al-Baqar (a.s.). He gave me its answer. Another person then asked the same question and the Imam gave him a different answer. Later a third person asked the same question, but the Imam's answer this time was different from the previous two answers. I then asked him: "O, the son of the Messenger (s.a.a.s)! The two persons who just came here to ask you questions were from Iraq and were Shias, yet you gave them contradictory answers". The Imam then answered: "O Zararah! This is good for me as well as for you and this will help us survive and prosper".
(Usool Al Kafi, p.37)

[shivaathervedi]

YA Ali Madad.
We Ismailiis are blessed to be born as same status of Jesus Christ. Imam SMS has said you each one can Also become like Jesus Christ.
He is never the less utmost upragraded soul of Noor E Pirantan.SIT IN IBADAT TO FEEL IT.
I wish to know from scholars in last 130 years how many time imam SMS and MHI say this 1400 years outdated word QUL which is along side few hundred other Arabic words.
and how many time the word Ignorance/ ignorant was used by both the Imam.this word topic need to locked n into trash box.topic on Ignorance is the need of the hour.

Mentally bankrupt creature, there is contradiction in your statement. You wrote," We Ismailis are blessed to be born as SAME STATUS OF JESUS CHRIST. (then you added) Imam MSMS has said you each one can also become like Jesus Christ." If as a blessed soul you are born as Jesus then there is no need of your other part of Imam's saying ' you can become like Jesus Christ', because you are already born as Jesus.
HANSI AATI HAI, TERI DEWANGI PAR.
The word QUL is related to Prophet and Imam. It is not trash, but your thinking is trash. A mind full of trash sees trash all over.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
This baby naag a noon Ismaili.A soul can reach noir e pirantan level such is the blessing in our souls.
He said you can even go further than Jesus Christ.
The person has to indentify his or own blessed status of who ALI is.
I Feel as inspired as Jesus and Pirs in my heart to serve ALI That PRECISELY OUR IMAM HAS SAID AND NOT BECOME LIKE DHOR/DONKEY who cannot introspect it's own soul and recognize IMAM/ALI/GOD.these are levels.Ingorants are like donkeys and cursed like reptile.even MHI recently used ignorance in a speech attentrd highly educated audience in North America.