quran as mentioned in preamble

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:20 am

agakhani wrote:
My question is do hindus allow recitation of Quran in their mandars, do jews allow recitation of Quran in their temples, do christians allow recitation of Quran in their churches?
About Tawrat, Zabur and Bible!!

-Are not we Muslims and even Ismailis accept these books as a holy books?
-Are not these books revealed from Allah? ( I am pretty sure it was not revealed from Sadardin!! )
-Are not these books teaching us the good things! what to do and what not to do?
-Are not these books teaching us about spirituality?
-Does not quran is Tafseer of these three books?

Islamic teaching
Tawrat, Zabur and Bible were revealed to respective Prophets ( AS to all) but human beings made changes to them and originals are not present. Therefore need for another Prophet ( Muhammad SAW) another Book and religion. Believer in Quran and Muhammad SAW are Muslim and their religion is known as Islam.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:05 pm

tawrat, Zabur and Bible were revealed to respective Prophets ( AS to all) but human beings made changes to them and originals are not present.

Any proof that these three books has been changed?
and any proof which proves that Quran has been not changed?

As I wrote earlier and also many believes that Quran has been changed many times before and specially the most changes were made during the time of third caliph H. Usman, means the Quran which we have right now is not 100% as revealed first time on prophet Mohd (PBUH).

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:46 pm

To Tret:
I think moderator also knows who is right and wrong. And yes he also know who is "SAHI ALLAH".

I always say its not your fault, but its not your language but what is the problem in it to learn new things. I am talking about GINANS.

I am a gujarati ismaili but always love to listen qasidas in JKs. Even I can recite many qasidas but why dont you people can learn Ginans. It will solve your all queries.

BTW i can give you verses on ALI is ALLAH from your Qasidas too.

tret · Post by **tret** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:12 pm

Prophet Moses was the annunciator of the exoteric revelation from West. Prophet Jesus was the annunciator of the esoteric revelation from East. Prophet Mohammad is the Final Prophet between the two and is neither from East nor West [That's what Ayah Noor is referring to a light neither from East nor from West] and as we know the Divine authorities and leadership has been passed to Mauwla Ali as our first Manifest Imam. So same [Ayah Noor] is correct for our Imam[s] too.

On one of MSMS's Farmaan [or His Memoire], said that there are many muslims who attained higher spiritual status. Also there are some christians that attained this status too; however, none from jewish community. The reason is that one can not apprehend the Divine secrets with only exoteric knowledge, unless one goes beyond exoteric meaning of the revealed message of God.

Why Qur'an and Islam, and not bible, gita, and other books?

For one, according to Muslims [and Ismailis], religion/faith [Abrahamic faith] has perfected with Islam. This doesn't imply that whatever is preached in bible and torah are wrong, but rather the teachings of bible and torah has been perfected with Islam and final message of God The Qur'an. So, when we are as Muslim [or better, ISmailis] we have the perfected and final message of God, then why there should be any need to go back?

As for gita and other non-Abrahamic faiths: They may be great books with great teachings, but everyone has their own path and beliefs. I am not saying what's preached in gita is wrong. I am saying gita is for hindus and their path, and ours is The Qur'an and Islam. One tend to seek answers in other books, if you can't find it in your own. So, if you are saying is Islam and Qur'an is imperfect, and therefore, we must turn to bible, torah and gita, that's that's what you need to clarify!

By studying Qur'an and our Ismailis history and Doctrine, I believe a true mo'min can find all the answers. And there's no need to turn into other religions. That's one factor that one could turn away from ISmailisim and get converted into other religions.

to ismaili103 - Do you agree that ginan is the tafsir of Qur'an? Do you believe that ginans are teachings of Qur'an? IF so, then do you claim that tafsir of Qur'an is only in ginan? I respect ginans, but as MHI said, it's a great tradition and I have respect for that. But we should not limit ourselves only to ginan.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:38 pm

Ref. to Mazhar ( aastin ka saap) by nuseri,
My name is Mazhar Khan, and I do not post under fake names to hide ID, you people do, so that in real life no one point finger out at you. Personally I am not a Sunni nor a
Shia because at time of Prophet Muhammad these groups did not existed.
I am an Ismaili and follow what Imam of the time says. Imam SMS said,
" BECOME IBNUL WAQAT", that is what administration of this site keep saying. Obey Farman of the present Imam. I do not need your grading, I am what I am. Every Ismaili in Du'a and kalima pak recite ALLIULLAH, ARE THEY ALL MONKEYS, ACCORDING TO YOU.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:59 pm

Dear kmaherali,
With ref. to your quote, " Pir Sadar deen gave us tafsir of Quran." According to me , good play of words, but not effective. Tell me km, at time of Imam Sadiq, Fatimid calaphate, pro Iran time , in central Asian countries, what kind of tafsirs Ismailis followed because Khoja ginans were not arround.

fayaz006 · Post by **fayaz006** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:08 pm

mazhar wrote:Dear Fayazoo6,
With ref. to your Jan28, 2015 post, you quote," ------- therefore the carriculum will focus on the universal lessons and messages from Quran rather than teaching our student Arabic." Fayaz I have not emphsized on teaching of Arabic language. Please read my first post again, also my recent posting to kmaherali.I have explained how we can start Quran in JKs. Regarding curriculum, in my opinion 80's and 90's curriculum as taught by ITREB Karachi was better in substance in comparison to today's. You look like well versed in Quran. You know that just changing of zer, zabar, and pesh, meaning will be changed.Same applies to pronunciation of Du'a and Quran. Let me give an example, few weeks back in a JK where I was present, a kid 9/10 years old recited Du'a. I figured out it was his first time. Next to him was sitting teacher for cover up and encouragement. Believe me that kid made more than 100 mistakes. Now tell me what is the use of that kind of Du'a, and that is routine in North America. I can say 95% Du'a reciters make plenty of mistakes. It is so sad that after 50 years we are unable to correct our Du'a individually. In North America as I know RC classes are conducted mostly on weekends for 3 hours. They can spare 15 minutes to teach Du'a correctly. If we can learn Spanish, French, Italian, or any other language and try to speak correctly, than
why not Arabic too.

Mazhar i understand the frustration, believe me i have felt it my self. Personally speaking with what has being asked for REC teachers, alot to finish even in 3 hrs, i wouldnt want to give that time up to teach proper pronunciation of dua. I would give that time up to teach different philosophies contained in the dua. Dua classes are held once a week but i agree with KM's point that this is an issue of manpower. We have a hard time staffing REC properly and that's once a week.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:09 pm

As for gita and other non-Abrahamic faiths: They may be great books with great teachings, but everyone has their own path and beliefs.

will you believe if I provide the farmans of SMS on Hindu scripture!! in that farmans Mowla insisted us to read Hindu religion scriptures, not only this Mowla also told us to read every religion literature. and compare our religion with them, so if any one read other religion's literature then it is nothing wrong.

Now do you have any farmans of any imams which saying do not read other religion literature? if you have it then post it here and if you don't then stop crying not to read other religion literature.

tret · Post by **tret** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:19 pm

agakhani - if someone entirely understand the Doctrine, History and realities of our own religion, then there's nothing wrong in studying other religions and comparing them. As Imam Ali said, the greater part of knowledge is what we don't know. So, we need to first understand our Tariqa and Doctrine of our own faith, then we set quest to other religions. But, if we know nothing about our own religion and Doctrine of our religion, it wouldn't be of any help to study other religions. Maybe you already know all the truth and Doctrine of our religion and now you set quest to study hinduism, I don't know. But, for me, I am still a learner and knowledge of religion is a vast ocean that is not easy to conquer simply by saying Ali is Allah.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:23 pm

With ref. to your quote, " Pir Sadar deen gave us tafsir of Quran." According to me , good play of words, but not effective. Tell me km, at time of Imam Sadiq, Fatimid calaphate, pro Iran time , in central Asian countries, what kind of tafsirs Ismailis followed because Khoja ginans were not arround.

At that time there were pirs also and they were preaching Ismailis as per and according the instructions they receives from the Imams of their time!

FYI: The pirs concept did not start when Ismaili pirs first came in Indo-Pak but it was started during the time of Prophet As per the history of Ismaili pirs prophet Mohd (PBUH) was our first pir, H. Hasan was second pirs and so on.
We Ismaili are lucky enough to receive hidayat after prophet's death from different pirs (as a maternal side ) and from Imams ( as a paternal side ) and we believes that this hidayats will be continue till the day of Kiyama.

So, if you think pirs concept has been just started after pir Satgur Noor's arrival in India then you are wrong.

Post by **Admin** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:26 pm

I disagree that you only read other books once you have mastered your own.. Often one can better learn of his own religion by studying other faiths. The key to understanding is that all religions come from the same source and have been corrupted to various levels after they were brought pure by the Prophets.

So when you see something common in the Gita and the Farmans and the Ginans and the Quran and the Torah and the Tao etc... you will feel that this is part of the original message of God that you can follow through history. When I was young I started studying various faith and then only I realised that the answers to all of my questions were to be found only in Ismailism while all of the other faiths gave only some answers or partial answers.... I never regretted going through the vast knowledge in all of the Books. People who discriminate are in fact cutting themselves from a possible source of understanding of their own faith.

tret · Post by **tret** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 3:31 pm

Admin wrote: I realised that the answers to all of my questions were to be found only in Ismailism while all of the other faiths gave only some answers or partial answers.

Don't you then consider Ismailis lucky to be already on sirat-ul-mustaqim? You found the correct path, after so many personal search, but look at us [agakhani, me and other members of ismaili], are we not already in the right path? Then why not remain in the right path and try to study and understand it. There's no need to go elsewhere!

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:08 pm

Tret,
That is up to you and nobody force you to study other religion literature but in my opinion if anyone first study different religions literatures and compare with Ismaili literature the results will be lot better that way you can find easily what is right and what is wrong?. and if you reach that decision that Ismailsm is right path then you do not have to worry about your iman! any more! Also You can teach this to your kids and colligue.
I did this since my childhood and I am still reading other religions too but as bro Admin wrote above I also find all answer in our religion and I believe Ismaili sect is a siratan mustkim religion (salwat ).

I should not repeat it here but I trained my three kids what I have learned from our religion and they are prays everydays and goes Khane, drink Niyaz everyday do not have bad habits and they all graduated from top 10 university in U.S.A.and making 6figures of income this is blessing from my mowla.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:32 pm

Nuseri,
YAM,
Ha, ha ha!
Who was born first chicken or egg?
and nobody knows that!
but our great pirs answered that too! That is why I am telling every one if you have a question then look in ginans, ginans has all answer you looking for?
I know the answer what pir Sadardin wrote in his one ginan but I will put answer tomorrow

because I forget which ginan was that? Just in case some one ask the proof of that ginan!. so I will post my answer ( pir Sadardin answer ) tomorrow.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:53 pm

P.O.S.
There are many ginans readers and lovers in this forum too, (and off corse ginans haters too) buy I am urging these peoples Karim, Sinan, bro Admin, Shas B Atharvedi and may be many more! they can also put here what pir Sadardin had wrote in his one ginan, which I forget the name!
Chicken born first? or egg born first or chicken?
So please come forward and if you know what pir Sadardin has wrote in his one ginan then please put it here.

I will wait for your answer,and I will put the answer as soon as I will find the exact ginan.

tret · Post by **tret** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:44 pm

ismaili103 wrote: Even I can recite many qasidas but why dont you people can learn Ginans

As MHI mentioned, ginan is a great tradition, and like any other tradition must be preserved. If tafsir of the Qur'an is in ginan, then so it is in the teachings of our Pir/Hujjat and Dais, which are equally in the form of Qasida and other great books that we luckily have today. Besides, I wasn't expecting this tone of language from one of our very own ismailis, i.e. you people. This is a sign of hate and definitely not a sign of pluralism, that our beloved MHI wants to have.

ismaili103 wrote: BTW i can give you verses on ALI is ALLAH from your Qasidas too.

Please do! show us in which Qasida and explain why and how!

Post by **Admin** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:53 pm

I do not think those (great tradition) are the words used by the Imam. As you all know when it comes to farmans, Imam has said that editing his Farmans have hurt the Da'is in the past. So please use the words that Imam has used and stick to the thread. This thread is on Quran in Preamble. Thanks

"I have said in the past, this is a wonderful tradition"

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:25 am

Aghakhani, you wrote," any proof that these books has been changed."
My reply, yes, these books have been contaiminated. Bible from Latin to Greek, to Romans to Hebrew to many other languages, and finally they settled on king James's version. There were plenty of changes made in king James translation. Please search the title' Bible' on warchtower.org, awake.org, Time.com.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:36 am

Aghakhani, your answer to," with ref. Pir Sadar deen gave us Tafsir of Quran." by kmaherali. Please note,kmaherali wrote about tafsir and not pirs. I know pirs history and ginans well.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 1:53 am

With ref. to your quote on Jan30, 2015, you wrote," will you believe if I provide the Farmans of SMSon Hindu scripture," Aghakhani let me remind
you a Farman of Imam SMS," HINDU KI BATEEN ILM MEE PARHTEY HO YEY WAJIB NAHEEN JAB TUM HINDU THEEY, PIR SADRUDDIN NEY TUMHE RASTA DIKHAYA . WOH ZAMANA GUZAR GAYA, AB MOWLA KI TAIREEF PARHO."

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:26 am

Aghakhani,
With reference to your post datedJan30, 2015, you wrote," Matter of fact we are reciting some ' HINDU BHAJANS' in JKs and they are reciting Ginans in their mandirs,
I have list of them." I assume your assertion is that infact Ginans are Bhajans.
Aghakhani, tamey Gujrati aney Hindi janno chho. Tamey Gita pasand chhey. Agar tamara gharey Gita hoya tou pahla bhaag na aakhri paragraph wancho, tiyan lakhel chhey,
BE BE LOCHAN SARVE NEY VIDIYA LOCHAN TRANN
SAPAT LOCHAN DHARM NA TAMEY JUOU VICHARI JANN
Now the same couplet is said by one of our pirs. Gita is thousands of years old and the said couplet is said about 700/800 years back. On this site CRITICAL STUDY of Ginans is prohibited and I think none of Ismaili will like this, because ismaili khojas consider Ginans mahan. My study shows, with due respect, there are other couplets in various Ginans are taken from ancient hindu poetry and literature. I do not want to annoy any one, there fore Aghakhani your assertion looks like correct that ginans are type of bhajans.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 3:28 am

tret wrote:
ismaili103 wrote: Even I can recite many qasidas but why dont you people can learn Ginans
As MHI mentioned, ginan is a great tradition, and like any other tradition must be preserved. If tafsir of the Qur'an is in ginan, then so it is in the teachings of our Pir/Hujjat and Dais, which are equally in the form of Qasida and other great books that we luckily have today. Besides, I wasn't expecting this tone of language from one of our very own ismailis, i.e. you people. This is a sign of hate and definitely not a sign of pluralism, that our beloved MHI wants to have.

ismaili103 wrote: BTW i can give you verses on ALI is ALLAH from your Qasidas too.
Please do! show us in which Qasida and explain why and how!

Sorry for the harsh tone but in some post you cross the thin line...leave it...i have nothing hatred for our central asian brothers they are ismaili too with different culture, traditions which are also unique. Here on karachi I have many gilgiti and hunzai freinds and they are also the part of Ginan classes in JKs. Look they not only giving it respect but also try to read and learn it.

In ismaili.net we have english traslation of Ginans too plzz belive me read it plzz...not for me only for your knowledge ...

You can get Ali Allah concept in Dam Ham A Dam Ali Ali... But plzz learn that qasida donot just skim it.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:35 pm

mazhar wrote:Dear kmaherali,
With ref. to your quote, " Pir Sadar deen gave us tafsir of Quran." According to me , good play of words, but not effective. Tell me km, at time of Imam Sadiq, Fatimid calaphate, pro Iran time , in central Asian countries, what kind of tafsirs Ismailis followed because Khoja ginans were not arround.

The science and practice of ta'wil and tafsir has always been there right from the time of the compilation of the Qur'an. As per our constition, MHI provides the tawil and the tafsir:

(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam).

Through out history individuals have always interpreted or done the ta'wil of the Qur'an. The ta'wil done by our Hujjats and Pirs are considered as being authoritative. During the Fatimid period our Dais such as Nsir Khusraw, Al Muyyad Shirazi and Qadi Numan provided the authoritative ta'wil. During the Alamut Period the tafsir was provided by our Pirs and Dais including Tusi and Hassan bin Sabbah.

Indeed the practice of tawil/tafsir is not only restricted to Ismailis. Various Sufi Tariqahs also practiced it.

At present the IIS under the direction of the Imam has established the department of Qur'anic Studies. Amongst its activities, is the study of all the historical tafsirs of the Qu'ran to demonstate the diversity of approaches to the Qur'an through out history.

Hence Qur'an is not only approached by rote or through literal interpretation. You need to apply your intellect. Pir Sadardeen through his tafsir of the Qur'an concluded that the Imam was Allah. Hence you should accept that as authoritative.

[/b]

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:43 pm

tret wrote:Please do! show us in which Qasida and explain why and how!

You asked a similar question in another thread a while back. It seems you have conveniently forgotten about it. I will reproduce the question and answer. I hope this time you will at least read the Qasida!

tret wrote: Could you provide any reference, from Farmaan, Qasida/Ginan, that says "Imam is Mazhar of the Divine Essence"?

In a Farman MSMS says that Imams are the Ocean to which all souls return to.
I mentioned a reference to the Ginan in my earlier post.
Qasida:
There is a book called The Noor En Allah Noor which can be accessed online at:
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/15495

On page no 11 there is reference to Kalame Pir by Nasir Khusraw on Imamat. He says: "The Imam is the Hujjat or Proof of God and it is for this reason some Imams have said, "What is said about God refers also to us.".

On page 108/9 there is a Qasida by Khaki Aleyma Rahema. Please read it.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 5:52 pm

zznoor wrote:Islamic teaching
Tawrat, Zabur and Bible were revealed to respective Prophets ( AS to all) but human beings made changes to them and originals are not present. Therefore need for another Prophet ( Muhammad SAW) another Book and religion. Believer in Quran and Muhammad SAW are Muslim and their religion is known as Islam.

MSMS in his Memoirs explains why there was the need for the final revelation to Prophet Muhammad:

First, however, we must ask ourselves why this final and consummate appearance of the Divine Will was granted to mankind, and what were its causes. All Islamic schools of thought accept it as a fundamental principle that for centuries, for thousands of years before the advent of Mohammed, there arose from time to time messengers, illumined by Divine Grace, for and among those races of the earth which had sufficiently advanced intellectually to comprehend such a message. Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countriesGautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe. Then what need was there for a Divine revelation to Mohammed ?

The answer of Islam is precise and clear. In spite of its great spiritual strength, Jewish monotheism has retained two characteristics which render it essentially different from Islamic monotheism: God has remained, in spite of all, a national and racial God for the children of Israel, and His personality is entirely separate from its supreme manifestation, the Universe. In far-distant countries such as India and China, the purity of the Faith in the one God had been so vitiated by polytheism, by idolatry and even by a pantheism which was hardly distinguishable from atheism that these popular and folklore religions bore little resemblance to that which emanated from the true and pure Godhead. Christianity lost its strength and meaning for Muslims in that it saw it great and glorious founder not as a man but as God incarnate in man, as God made Flesh. Thus there was an absolute need for the Divine Word's revelation, to Mohammed himself, a man like the others, of God's person and of his relations to the Universe which he had created.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 6:01 pm

agakhani wrote:If your answer is yes then Why should we do not have to read these three books in JK to!!

It is difficult enough to accommodate the diversity within our tariqah given the time constraints. It would be a nightmare if we were to accommodate the diversity of humanity!!

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:08 pm

To Mazhar:
I am still awaiting the answer for
How would your God be like?.

Imam SMS said in a farman that you concentrate on Ali
and Imams n forget the past hindu scriptures. you post n refer to that farman.

All important farmans starts with 'my dear _____" to whole Jamat.
It is on rare occasion that a message or akin to farman was indeed made
to few in gathering .

I respects that,did MHI MENTIONEd THAT HE HAS totally annulled Imam SMS farman on same matter?.

till now I have not read any post of an Ismaili or non Ismaili objecting to the wordings of our dua or giryazari.

you may be d first one, an insiders doing that n not an outsider and having guts what should done for that n you see it as a problem.

you have three earlier n one now to be answered so all may know your
sub standard quality.

Why ,in one qasida,I wish to now the composer NAME..
he said
YOU ARE THE SURAS OF THE QURAN
MY LORD ALI.
It is one line tell all ,He means( SUFI MEANS IT) that the word Allah,it praise n definition n history ,etc belongs to/and is ALI.
nothing less.
I feel we need on forum many qasidas be translated by a Haqiqati
member who is good in Persian language n definitely not by a shallow
tariqati.
If one can do a quality translation I promise to do the explanation of the Qasidas with best of my ability.

tret · Post by **tret** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:01 am

kmaherali wrote: Through out history individuals have always interpreted or done the ta'wil of the Qur'an. The ta'wil done by our Hujjats and Pirs are considered as being authoritative. During the Fatimid period our Dais such as Nsir Khusraw, Al Muyyad Shirazi and Qadi Numan provided the authoritative ta'wil. During the Alamut Period the tafsir was provided by our Pirs and Dais including Tusi and Hassan bin Sabbah.

Indeed the practice of tawil/tafsir is not only restricted to Ismailis. Various Sufi Tariqahs also practiced it.

At present the IIS under the direction of the Imam has established the department of Qur'anic Studies. Amongst its activities, is the study of all the historical tafsirs of the Qu'ran to demonstate the diversity of approaches to the Qur'an through out history.

Hence Qur'an is not only approached by rote or through literal interpretation. You need to apply your intellect.

So, you do adhere to the teaching of our Hujjat and Dais of Fatimid era, such as Nasir-Khusraw, Tusi, Sayyina Hassan-e-Sabah. Then, let me quote Nasir-e-Khusraw on this notion of Ali Allah, and I hope you adhere and understand our Hujjat and Dais position. There's no teaching of Imam or Hujjat to say Imam is Allah.

It is on account of this that those people who said Muhammad is God or the group who said Ali is God fell into error. The Prophet and the legatees
(wasi) are disgusted with them, and those with whom the Prophet is disgusted, God is also disgusted. These people are called the Mimiyya and the Ayniyya, who thought that unless [Muhammad and Ali] were one with God their sender, they would not have been able to accept His message.

Read the Paradise of Submission of Tusi that explains the Doctrine and religious philosophy of Ismaili in a very detailed and beautiful manner, and no where Tusi implies Ali[Imam] is Allah.

kmaherali wrote: Pir Sadardeen through his tafsir of the Qur'an concluded that the Imam was Allah. Hence you should accept that as authoritative.

Please quote Pir Sadardeen where did he imply Ali[Imam] is God?

kmaherali wrote: In a Farman MSMS says that Imams are the Ocean to which all souls return to.
I mentioned a reference to the Ginan in my earlier post.
Qasida:
There is a book called The Noor En Allah Noor which can be accessed online at:
http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/15495

On page no 11 there is reference to Kalame Pir by Nasir Khusraw on Imamat. He says: "The Imam is the Hujjat or Proof of God and it is for this reason some Imams have said, "What is said about God refers also to us.".

On page 108/9 there is a Qasida by Khaki Aleyma Rahema. Please read it.

How do you conclude when Imam says "We are the ocean to which all souls return to"? Do you know the notion of creation from Ismaili perspective, God->Command->Intellect->Soul->Matter->Universe?
In this heirarchy, Imams don't mean they are the Supreme/transcendent, but the Command or Intellect, where the [individual] souls should return to.

Again, what Nasir-Khusraw says about the Imam doesn't at all imply Imam is Allah, should you correctly understand the Doctrine that Hujjat is explaining.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:12 am

Pir Sadardeen through his tafsir of the Qur'an concluded that the Imam was Allah.

Astaghfirullh

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:14 am

Not only Pir Sadardin but many others pirs also quoted many times in their ginans that Ali is the Allah, in short I can say that if KBhai or Admin or I put that list then it will reach from Texas to Ontario!! means pirs has quoted many times and in many ginans.

But why only pirs!!!! Why not Imams?
FYI:I have many farmans of our 46th, 47th and 48th Imams who has also said that "Ali is the Allah"

any one who like to know those farmans please e-mail me otherwise I will not put it here again as per my own policy, which I broke one time in past and I do not want to broke it again.