Pre-Adam

[shamsu]

49th Imam

Now, you cannot turn to prayer only when times are difficult, you must pray when times are well. You must pray, every single one of you, because this will give you the humanity which you must have. (13.)
For hundreds of years, my spiritual children have been guided by the rope of Imamat. (14.)

You have looked to the Imam of the Age for advice and help in all matters and through your Imam's immense love and affection for his spiritual children, his NOOR has indicated to you where and in which direction you must turn, so as to obtain spiritual and worldly satisfaction. (15.)

[Guest]

49th Imam

Now, you cannot turn to prayer only when times are difficult, you must pray when times are well. You must pray, every single one of you, because this will give you the humanity which you must have. (13.)
For hundreds of years, my spiritual children have been guided by the rope of Imamat. (14.)

You have looked to the Imam of the Age for advice and help in all matters and through your Imam's immense love and affection for his spiritual children, his NOOR has indicated to you where and in which direction you must turn, so as to obtain spiritual and worldly satisfaction. (15.)

Shamsu - you did not give a proper reference here - date of farman, place, etc. to enable people verify the contents
======================
Noor is Light and I have earlier already quoted this from the farman giving proper reference. Natually - one get's the "ishaara" - the spark of light is in everyone. Regarding this Ishaara - you can refer to the farman number you yourself quoted earlier - i.e. sultan mohd shah farman. Here also it clearly mentions that the Noor "INDICATES".

So stop saying that Farman is Noor - stop your rumor mongering business. Farman is a Farman and a Noor is a Noor. Noor is not a farman. Farman is a guidance and those who follow the farmans are guided by His Noor. These true followers also receive the deedar of his Noor - OK. I have already quoted about the Noorani deedar taking into account farman and the quran. In fact, Sultan Mohd in his farmans, according to the needs of the relevant time, said read the farmans so and so - if you want the number I will try to arrange this and post it. Do you mean to say you can read the "Noor". Even the Quran mention that Quran (message of Allah) is guidance and not the Noor.

One experiences this "inspiration" or "Ishaara" or "indication" when one, inter alia, has faith in him, follow the farmans and when one who has a habit of saying false things about the farmans and the ginans - stops this bad habit and start living cleanly.

[Guest]

KIM I Farman 146 page 311 line number 12

"Momin no Ruh te Amaro Ruh cche"


Dear Altaf Rupani I have provided you the reference number you wanted.

Would you please go ahead and confirm the farman before you edit your incorrect posts.

Ya Aly Madad

Shams

The Id is altaf_rupani - the name is not Altaf Rupani. This has been made clear earlier by the person having ID altaf_rupani.

It has already been discussed that Allah has created from his own soul. So the soul is of the Imam. In fact I even quoted the farman of Mawlana Hazar Imam - the Arabic and the Meaning.

[shamsu]

Ya Aly Madad altaf rupani, I have a few questions for you.

ALLAH is Noor. Is that right?

If you say yes, then please explain how anything that comes from light, be different from light.


Do Farmans enlighten us?

Please explain how anything other than light cause enlightenment.

[Guest]

Ya Aly Madad altaf rupani, I have a few questions for you.

ALLAH is Noor. Is that right?

If you say yes, then please explain how anything that comes from light, be different from light.


Do Farmans enlighten us?

Please explain how anything other than light cause enlightenment.

Allah is Noor + Human Being and not just the Noor. You are wrong here itself - we already discussed the parable of His Noor - the oil of the blessed Olive Tree lights the lamp of understanding.

You mention do Farmans enlighten us ?
You have read the books you mention but you are not enlighten. In fact you quoted things of your own and termed as farmans and ginans - from where you got the "50,000" and "Adams" when there is no mention of it in the Ginan - the aql you translated as breathing. You either go as per the farmans or you do not - it is your choice. If you do not follow the farmans of the Imam/Lord/God you are the loser not the Imam/Lord/God.

When you do not follow the farmans - the light will not enlighten you and your various postings demonstrates this.

[Guest]

Ya Aly Madad altaf rupani, I have a few questions for you.

ALLAH is Noor. Is that right?

If you say yes, then please explain how anything that comes from light, be different from light.


Do Farmans enlighten us?

Please explain how anything other than light cause enlightenment.

Allah is Noor + Human Being and not just the Noor. You are wrong here itself - we already discussed the parable of His Noor - the oil of the blessed Olive Tree lights the lamp of understanding.

You mention do Farmans enlighten us ?
You have read the books you mention but you are not enlighten. In fact you quoted things of your own and termed as farmans and ginans - from where you got the "50,000" and "Adams" when there is no mention of it in the Ginan - the aql you translated as breathing. You either go as per the farmans or you do not - it is your choice. If you do not follow the farmans of the Imam/Lord/God you are the loser not the Imam/Lord/God.

When you do not follow the farmans - the light will not enlighten you and your various postings demonstrates this.

An-Nur, or Light (XXIV)
40) Or (the Unbelievers' state) is like the depths of darkness in a vast deep ocean, overwhelmed with billow topped by billow, topped by (dark) clouds: depths of darkness, one above another: if a man stretches out his hand, he can hardly see it! For any to whom Allah giveth not light, there is no light!

Hope this message is clear to you Shamsu.

Allah knows who are his followers and who are not - he will enlighten his followers and not vice versa.

[shamsu]

Aql is obviously Intellect. There I was asking you to take a deep breath and I apologize for not clarifying that earlier. I was asking you to ask the spark of Noor in your heart if Mowla ever said anything about 50,000 Adams. I think you will KNOW the answer to your question right away.


altaf_rupani I agree with you that I am not a Farman bardar momin of my Imam. I feel extremely lucky that he has accepted me as his murid inspite of this.
The inadequacy of my knowledge is obvious to you and everyone else in my posts, please don't rub it in. If you can help in a nice, easily acceptable way, like Mowla Bapa does, it will be really appreciated. I don't say I deserve it. I am just asking for kindness.
It must be my aamal that is bad which causes confusion and the resultant bitterness.

I think I am calling Sunlight the Sun and that is what you disagree with. Is that so?

[Guest]

Aql is obviously Intellect. There I was asking you to take a deep breath and I apologize for not clarifying that earlier. I was asking you to ask the spark of Noor in your heart if Mowla ever said anything about 50,000 Adams. I think you will KNOW the answer to your question right away.


altaf_rupani I agree with you that I am not a Farman bardar momin of my Imam. I feel extremely lucky that he has accepted me as his murid inspite of this.
The inadequacy of my knowledge is obvious to you and everyone else in my posts, please don't rub it in. If you can help in a nice, easily acceptable way, like Mowla Bapa does, it will be really appreciated. I don't say I deserve it. I am just asking for kindness.
It must be my aamal that is bad which causes confusion and the resultant bitterness.

I think I am calling Sunlight the Sun and that is what you disagree with. Is that so?

The things you mentioned before, i.e. "Aql", "Breathing", "Adam" and "50,000" made things very very clear. If you desire so you can again see the reply I gave to that postings.

[Guest]

Aql is obviously Intellect. There I was asking you to take a deep breath and I apologize for not clarifying that earlier. I was asking you to ask the spark of Noor in your heart if Mowla ever said anything about 50,000 Adams. I think you will KNOW the answer to your question right away.


altaf_rupani I agree with you that I am not a Farman bardar momin of my Imam. I feel extremely lucky that he has accepted me as his murid inspite of this.
The inadequacy of my knowledge is obvious to you and everyone else in my posts, please don't rub it in. If you can help in a nice, easily acceptable way, like Mowla Bapa does, it will be really appreciated. I don't say I deserve it. I am just asking for kindness.
It must be my aamal that is bad which causes confusion and the resultant bitterness.

I think I am calling Sunlight the Sun and that is what you disagree with. Is that so?

The things you mentioned before, i.e. "Aql", "Breathing", "Adam" and "50,000" made things very very clear. If you desire so you can again see the reply I gave to that postings.

I am wondering how come you mentioned the posting (reply) was that of "altaf_rupani" when it showed Guest. Guest can be anyone - not necessarily ID altaf_rupani? Please treat Guest as Guest. Thank you.

[shamsu]

" Every day Ismailis asks for Zahiri, Batuni and Noorani Deedar because these types of Deedar are there. It has also come to my knowledge that even the memoirs of agakhan mention this dear. So Deedar means a Deedar - zahiri batuni and noorani. So stop falsifying the Tasbih, Quran, Farman, Sultan Mohd Shah, etc. "


Dear altaf_rupani do you have any references about Imam instructing us to pray for Zaheri Deedar?

[Guest]

" Every day Ismailis asks for Zahiri, Batuni and Noorani Deedar because these types of Deedar are there. It has also come to my knowledge that even the memoirs of agakhan mention this dear. So Deedar means a Deedar - zahiri batuni and noorani. So stop falsifying the Tasbih, Quran, Farman, Sultan Mohd Shah, etc. "


Dear altaf_rupani do you have any references about Imam instructing us to pray for Zaheri Deedar?

This is the Guest - After 2nd Dua if you are an ismaili you should know there is a second tasbih i.e. Yaa Ali Yaa Mohammad and then you pray to Mawlana Hazar Imam for:
1) Zahiri Deedar
2) Baatuni Deedar
3) Noorani Deedar.
It appears you are not an ismaili else you would have know this.

[shamsu]

What we do and what the Imam instructs us to do is sometimes different.

You may have seen that Tea is served before morning JamatKhana. Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah has specifically made a farman about not drinking tea unless it is prepared in a specific way that he described.
This is the 5th Farman in the Khangi Farman Book for Baitul Khayal.

We ask for Mushkil Aasaan after every Dua. Show me one Farman where Imam of the time has specifically instructed us to ask for Mushkil Aasaan.
If he can instuct us on how to make Tea he would have instructed us about asking for this wouldn't he?

Imam has asked us to ask for Assal Makaan.
When have we ever heard that in JamatKhana?

Imam SMS has stated in various Farmans "Amaro Deen" and in some places he states "Tamaro Deen".
Reflect on why he would use these clearly different terms?

[shamsu]

In Deedar there are two entities Murid and Mursheed.

When we have Zaheri Deedar is that
The Murid in a zaheeri state seeing the Mursheed in his Zaheri state or
The Murid in a batuni state seeing the Mursheed in his Zaheri state or
The Murid in a roohani state seeing the Mursheed in the Zaheri state or
The Murid in a zaheri state seeing the Mursheed in his Batuni state or
The Murid in a Zaheri state seeing the Mursheed in his Noorani state.

I think Zaher, Batin and Noorani are all one (i.e. Noorani) when we talk about the Mursheed.

In my opinion Zahir Batin and Roohani are states a Murid goes through in his spiritual developement.

[Guest]

In Deedar there are two entities Murid and Mursheed.

When we have Zaheri Deedar is that
The Murid in a zaheeri state seeing the Mursheed in his Zaheri state or
The Murid in a batuni state seeing the Mursheed in his Zaheri state or
The Murid in a roohani state seeing the Mursheed in the Zaheri state or
The Murid in a zaheri state seeing the Mursheed in his Batuni state or
The Murid in a Zaheri state seeing the Mursheed in his Noorani state.

I think Zaher, Batin and Noorani are all one (i.e. Noorani) when we talk about the Mursheed.

In my opinion Zahir Batin and Roohani are states a Murid goes through in his spiritual developement.

I think the discussions relates to types of Deedars:

Zahiri Deedar is Zahiri Deedar
Batuni Deedar is Batuni Deedar
Noorani Deedar is Noorani Deedar

So there are three different types of Deedars.

You know Quran reveals about greater revelations of the Lord - i.e. Noorani Deedar, which the Holy Prophet had - OK, the farman about Moses to take Noorani Deedar of Ali.

I understand Sultan Mohd Shah's farman is that noorani deedar of the lord depends on your cleaniness (something similar) and he did gave an example - i.e. the sun's reflection in the water is seen if water is clear and not dirty. So shamsu you did not have noorani deedar I suppose.

[Guest]

What we do and what the Imam instructs us to do is sometimes different.

You may have seen that Tea is served before morning JamatKhana. Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah has specifically made a farman about not drinking tea unless it is prepared in a specific way that he described.
This is the 5th Farman in the Khangi Farman Book for Baitul Khayal.

We ask for Mushkil Aasaan after every Dua. Show me one Farman where Imam of the time has specifically instructed us to ask for Mushkil Aasaan.
If he can instuct us on how to make Tea he would have instructed us about asking for this wouldn't he?

Imam has asked us to ask for Assal Makaan.
When have we ever heard that in JamatKhana?

Imam SMS has stated in various Farmans "Amaro Deen" and in some places he states "Tamaro Deen".
Reflect on why he would use these clearly different terms?

Direction by the Hazar Imam - Muskil Asaan, etc.
---------------------------------
FARMAN MUBARAK OF MAWLANA HAZAR IMAM - MWANZA, TANZANIA, SATURDAY, 8TH OCTOBER, 1988
----------------------------------
This requires that not only the Imam be available to discuss these traditions, but in the years ahead, I will be giving more and more direction to the practice of the tariqah in such a manner that the various Jamats which come forward with their cultural traditions, understand that they all relate, under one Constitution, to the Imam of the time, so that they are able to inter-mingle and find commonality in their tradition, but at the same time, not upset the history of that tradition as it has developed in one part of the world rather than another, and in such a way that each Jamat is able to live in peace and harmony with the people among whom it is living.

=============
FARMAN MUBARAK OF MAWLANA HAZAR IMAM - DAR-ES-SALAAM, TANZANIA, THURSDAY, 6TH OCTOBER, 1988
=============
Under the new Constitution, there are Tariqah and Religious Education Boards; they relate to me; I am aware of their work. The Mukhis and the Kamadias who are the Imam's representatives in the Jamatkhanas receive directions more and more so. I wish it to be clear, therefore, that in tariqah matters I am aware, and there will be no change in the essence of our faith, but there will be, nonetheless, a search to enable the murids to come together in an ever wider Jamat, practicing their faith together, even if they don't speak the same language. There will be an attempt to take account of the pressures of modern life; there will be an attempt to make sure that traditions are understood within the Jamat and outside, and that they do not give offense.

Regarding Amaro Deen and Tamaro Deen - It is one and the same.
For example you are an ismaili - in which case, your din and my din is the same. Here the difference is the leader is the Imam/God you know and the Din is his - so his followers are the followers of his Din and so even when sultan mohd shah says your din it automatically means the din of sultan mohd shah because the followers are the followers of sultan mohd shah. -

Shamsu you mention you have read all the books still you appear confused. Sultan mohd shah farman mention if you do not use your intellect you will know nothing of the ismaili faith.
Shamsu please use the intellect. You know Quran mention :

Al-Mulk, or Dominion (LXVII)
----------------------------------
10) They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!"

[shamsu]

Mowlabapa says "shabde shabd ma khubi ane bhed cchupayla cche"

This is what I think.

Pir states Amaro Deen as Pir is our Leader

Shah states Tamaro Deen as Shah is Niranjan Nirakar sabse nyara. He doesn't need us, We need Him.

Next Question

Qayamat and Aakhirat Is there a difference? If so what is it?






HINT: "Tamne Aakhirat joyti hoi to....."

[Guest]

Mowlabapa says "shabde shabd ma khubi ane bhed cchupayla cche"

This is what I think.

Pir states Amaro Deen as Pir is our Leader

Shah states Tamaro Deen as Shah is Niranjan Nirakar sabse nyara. He doesn't need us, We need Him.

Next Question

Qayamat and Aakhirat Is there a difference? If so what is it?






HINT: "Tamne Aakhirat joyti hoi to....."

Please quote the relevant farman sr. no. and other details.

In fact in Kalame Imame Mubin everything is explained in detail. If you cannot understand Lord's farman that is because you are not using the intellect. Imam did say that if you do not use your intellect you will not know anything of the ismaili faith.

So when you go on asking and asking and asking despite having the farman available at your end demonstrates and proves that you are not using your intellect. God has given everyone intellect - in fact the root of your intellect is god's intellect. However, if you do not use it - the problem is yours not god's. Wipe out your problem by using your intellect and if i see you again asking questions i will assume you are again not using your intellect and are in the confusion, in which case, as a sharing of knowledge will remind you to use your intellect.

[shamsu]

Stimulation of the Intellect is one of the best ways to enhance it.

If a person asks a question, it doesn't automatically mean they are not using their Intellect.

How are Ideas shared?

How are Discussions started?

Questions stimulate, lectures bore, rudeness turns people off, name calling just makes everyone mad.

Let us learn from this rather than "I'm taking my ball and going home"

Ya Aly Madad.

[Guest]

Stimulation of the Intellect is one of the best ways to enhance it.

If a person asks a question, it doesn't automatically mean they are not using their Intellect.

How are Ideas shared?

How are Discussions started?

Questions stimulate, lectures bore, rudeness turns people off, name calling just makes everyone mad.

Let us learn from this rather than "I'm taking my ball and going home"

Ya Aly Madad.

When answers are already there and despite this one asks the question means that the person is not using the intellect. Sultan mohd shah farman cannot be wrong. He mentions to know about the faith one should use the intellect else he will not know anything and shamsu you were asking questions and questions though the answers were readily available and you even mentioned reading farman books KIM and so on and so forth - because you do not know about ismaili faith it is clear that you are not using the intellect. Even quran cites that people who did not use the intellect ........

Al-Mulk, or Dominion (LXVII)
(10) They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!"

[Guest]

Mowlabapa says "shabde shabd ma khubi ane bhed cchupayla cche"

This is what I think.

Pir states Amaro Deen as Pir is our Leader

Shah states Tamaro Deen as Shah is Niranjan Nirakar sabse nyara. He doesn't need us, We need Him.

Next Question

Qayamat and Aakhirat Is there a difference? If so what is it?






HINT: "Tamne Aakhirat joyti hoi to....."

Please quote the relevant farman sr. no. and other details.

In fact in Kalame Imame Mubin everything is explained in detail. If you cannot understand Lord's farman that is because you are not using the intellect. Imam did say that if you do not use your intellect you will not know anything of the ismaili faith.

So when you go on asking and asking and asking despite having the farman available at your end demonstrates and proves that you are not using your intellect. God has given everyone intellect - in fact the root of your intellect is god's intellect. However, if you do not use it - the problem is yours not god's. Wipe out your problem by using your intellect and if i see you again asking questions i will assume you are again not using your intellect and are in the confusion, in which case, as a sharing of knowledge will remind you to use your intellect.

Only those who have knowledge can share it. Shamsu quote a single farman which says an ismaili can share his confusion with another ismaili.

[Guest]

Stimulation of the Intellect is one of the best ways to enhance it.

If a person asks a question, it doesn't automatically mean they are not using their Intellect.

How are Ideas shared?

How are Discussions started?

Questions stimulate, lectures bore, rudeness turns people off, name calling just makes everyone mad.

Let us learn from this rather than "I'm taking my ball and going home"

Ya Aly Madad.

When answers are already there and despite this one asks the question means that the person is not using the intellect. Sultan mohd shah farman cannot be wrong. He mentions to know about the faith one should use the intellect else he will not know anything and shamsu you were asking questions and questions though the answers were readily available and you even mentioned reading farman books KIM and so on and so forth - because you do not know about ismaili faith it is clear that you are not using the intellect. Even quran cites that people who did not use the intellect ........

Al-Mulk, or Dominion (LXVII)
(10) They will further say: "Had we but listened or used our intelligence we should not (now) be among the Companions of the Blazing Fire!"

Only those who have knowledge can share it. Shamsu quote a single farman which says an ismaili can share his confusion with another ismaili.

In fact during the period of holy prophet muhammad - quran reveals refer to God, etc. ... - whenever there was an argument - allah's message used to make things clear. It did not say refer to another person of your choice. Unless you refer to the proper authority how will you know?
You share your knowledge (and by knowledge I mean the truth) not your confusion.

[Guest]

Ya Aly Madad Ruh-Dost.

I have noticed that when you don't understand the Question or do not know the answer you attack the person asking the question.

Should I presume you have no clue about Aakhirat and Qayamat?

Are you sure you are not projecting { to attribute (one's own ideas, feelings, or characteristics) to other people or to objects} your confusion by accusing almost anyone who posts on this forum.

I hope you are not trying to mess up Admin's website Forums due to some old animus.

You want me to provide you serial numbers of Farmans and you keep on quoting Imam SMS without any references whatsoever.

Why are you in love with USMAN'S QURAN which is incomplete and inaccurate.

Quote the present Imam or Imam SMS or Imam Aly or Ginans.

I have already proven with Imam SMS farman that Quran was for the country of Arabi people.

DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND IMAMS FARMAN ARE THE FINAL WORD.

KIM I Farman 31 Page 80-81

"Tamaro Deen satya cche, TAMARO DEEN PUSTAKO UPERTHI SHARU THAYO NATHI, Parantu tae Mohabbatmathi utpan thayel cche."

"Tamara vastae Ilm cche tae GINAN cche"

"Qurane sharrifnae terso (1300 yrs) varsh thaya cche, TAE MULKAE ARABINI VASTI MAATAE CCHE. "
"GINAN ne saatsau varsh (700 yrs) thaya cche. Tamara maatae GINAN cche tae uper tamae cchalo"

Let us learn from this forum that your Usman's incomplete and inaccurate Quran is no match for Mowla Bapa's Farmans.

[shamsu]

Ya Aly Madad Ruh-Dost.

I have noticed that when you don't understand the Question or do not know the answer you attack the person asking the question.

Should I presume you have no clue about Aakhirat and Qayamat?

Are you sure you are not projecting { to attribute (one's own ideas, feelings, or characteristics) to other people or to objects} your confusion by accusing almost anyone who posts on this forum.

I hope you are not trying to mess up Admin's website Forums due to some old animus.

You want me to provide you serial numbers of Farmans and you keep on quoting Imam SMS without any references whatsoever.

Why are you in love with USMAN'S QURAN which is incomplete and inaccurate.

Quote the present Imam or Imam SMS or Imam Aly or Ginans.

I have already proven with Imam SMS farman that Quran was for the country of Arabi people.

DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND IMAMS FARMAN ARE THE FINAL WORD.

KIM I Farman 31 Page 80-81

"Tamaro Deen satya cche, TAMARO DEEN PUSTAKO UPERTHI SHARU THAYO NATHI, Parantu tae Mohabbatmathi utpan thayel cche."

"Tamara vastae Ilm cche tae GINAN cche"

"Qurane sharrifnae terso (1300 yrs) varsh thaya cche, TAE MULKAE ARABINI VASTI MAATAE CCHE. "
"GINAN ne saatsau varsh (700 yrs) thaya cche. Tamara maatae GINAN cche tae uper tamae cchalo"

Let us learn from this forum that your Usman's incomplete and inaccurate Quran is no match for Mowla Bapa's Farmans.

The last one was me

[Guest]

Ya Aly Madad Ruh-Dost.

I have noticed that when you don't understand the Question or do not know the answer you attack the person asking the question.

Should I presume you have no clue about Aakhirat and Qayamat?

Are you sure you are not projecting { to attribute (one's own ideas, feelings, or characteristics) to other people or to objects} your confusion by accusing almost anyone who posts on this forum.

I hope you are not trying to mess up Admin's website Forums due to some old animus.

You want me to provide you serial numbers of Farmans and you keep on quoting Imam SMS without any references whatsoever.

Why are you in love with USMAN'S QURAN which is incomplete and inaccurate.

Quote the present Imam or Imam SMS or Imam Aly or Ginans.

I have already proven with Imam SMS farman that Quran was for the country of Arabi people.

DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND IMAMS FARMAN ARE THE FINAL WORD.

KIM I Farman 31 Page 80-81

"Tamaro Deen satya cche, TAMARO DEEN PUSTAKO UPERTHI SHARU THAYO NATHI, Parantu tae Mohabbatmathi utpan thayel cche."

"Tamara vastae Ilm cche tae GINAN cche"

"Qurane sharrifnae terso (1300 yrs) varsh thaya cche, TAE MULKAE ARABINI VASTI MAATAE CCHE. "
"GINAN ne saatsau varsh (700 yrs) thaya cche. Tamara maatae GINAN cche tae uper tamae cchalo"

Let us learn from this forum that your Usman's incomplete and inaccurate Quran is no match for Mowla Bapa's Farmans.

The last one was me

INSTEAD OF REPEATING THINGS OVER AND OVER AGAIN - GO AND REFER TO THE FARMANS OF MAWLANA HAZAR IMAM REGARDING QURAN AND HISTORY. ALSO REFER TO THE FOLLOWING:

September 25, 1964 - Message received on the occassion of All India Religious Conference held by Ismaila Association for India:
--------------------------------
While working through the topics which you must discuss, I am sure you will never forget that our faith is based on thousands of years of history and that we should learn from history and not think our past is of no use now and that it can therefore be rejected, abbreviated or altered.

[shamsu]

Ya Aly Madad Ruh-Dost.

I have noticed that when you don't understand the Question or do not know the answer you attack the person asking the question.

Should I presume you have no clue about Aakhirat and Qayamat?

Are you sure you are not projecting { to attribute (one's own ideas, feelings, or characteristics) to other people or to objects} your confusion by accusing almost anyone who posts on this forum.

I hope you are not trying to mess up Admin's website Forums due to some old animus.

You want me to provide you serial numbers of Farmans and you keep on quoting Imam SMS without any references whatsoever.

Why are you in love with USMAN'S QURAN which is incomplete and inaccurate.

Quote the present Imam or Imam SMS or Imam Aly or Ginans.

I have already proven with Imam SMS farman that Quran was for the country of Arabi people.

DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND IMAMS FARMAN ARE THE FINAL WORD.

KIM I Farman 31 Page 80-81

"Tamaro Deen satya cche, TAMARO DEEN PUSTAKO UPERTHI SHARU THAYO NATHI, Parantu tae Mohabbatmathi utpan thayel cche."

"Tamara vastae Ilm cche tae GINAN cche"

"Qurane sharrifnae terso (1300 yrs) varsh thaya cche, TAE MULKAE ARABINI VASTI MAATAE CCHE. "
"GINAN ne saatsau varsh (700 yrs) thaya cche. Tamara maatae GINAN cche tae uper tamae cchalo"

Let us learn from this forum that your Usman's incomplete and inaccurate Quran is no match for Mowla Bapa's Farmans.

The last one was me

INSTEAD OF REPEATING THINGS OVER AND OVER AGAIN - GO AND REFER TO THE FARMANS OF MAWLANA HAZAR IMAM REGARDING QURAN AND HISTORY. ALSO REFER TO THE FOLLOWING:

September 25, 1964 - Message received on the occassion of All India Religious Conference held by Ismaila Association for India:
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While working through the topics which you must discuss, I am sure you will never forget that our faith is based on thousands of years of history and that we should learn from history and not think our past is of no use now and that it can therefore be rejected, abbreviated or altered.

Let us see what else Mowla Bapa said in the SAME FARMAN

Friday, September 25, 1964.

(Message received on the occasion of An India Ismaili Religious Conference held by Ismailia Association for India)

My Dear President,

The following is My message to the All India Religious Conference inauguration.

I send to all My spiritual children participating in the All India Religious Conference, My most affectionate, paternal maternal blessings on this most important occasion.

I am sure that you will all use your knowledge and ability so as to reach conclusions which will be in the best interests of My Jamats of India. The ceremonies and customs which you will be discussing are the backbone of our faith and for this reason, your discussions should be guided by clear thinking, restraint and above all, faith.

While working through the topics which you must discuss, I am sure you will never forget that our faith is based on thousands of years of history and that we should learn from history and not think our past is of no use now and that it can therefore be rejected, abbreviated or altered.

I send to each and everyone of you individually My most affectionate loving blessings and pray for the success of your Conference.

Yours affectionately,

AGA KHAN

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RESTRAINT in the dictionary is defined as follows:

Main Entry: re·straint
Pronunciation: ri-'strAnt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French restrainte, from restraindre
Date: 15th century
1 a : an act of restraining : the state of being restrained b (1) : a means of restraining : a restraining force or influence (2) : a device that restricts movement <a restraint for children riding in cars>
2 : a control over the expression of one's emotions or thoughts

Pronunciation Key

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I DO NOT WANT MY IMAM TO EVER BE EMBARRASSED OF YOU BY YOUR OBLIVIOUSNESS OF RESTRAINT.

[shamsu]

You mention: Allah states in the Quran that he created with one word.

Quran reveals that everything is created from the Soul of Allah and not from the Word of Allah. In fact word of Allah is guidance and not a command. For example,

You are saying that the word of Allah is not a command, it is guidance.

So according to you the command of Allah is wordless. What is wrong with your cognition?

Please read your posts again a few times and check them for ERRORS as you have already demonstrated that you do not check them for accuracy by making mistakes like "LAUGHT"

T and H are not even next to each other on the keyboard for you to call it a mistake. You have repeated that ERROR again when addressing Umed.

SO PLEASE CHECK YOUR POST'S FOR ACCURACY. CORRECT YOUR ERRORS. DO THIS FOR YOUR OWN SAKE.

[shamsu]

You keep quoting "Blazing Fire"

From your post's it is obvious that you are living in the blazing fire of Anger, Hatred, Disrespect, Rudeness, Insult and Rage.

Recognize that you are already there, the place you keep warning me of.

You live in a place where the Light of Farmans doesn't make any difference and this is very sad.

I pray to my Mowla to Enlighten your heart with his Noor so as to help you live according to the Ethics of Islam. The Spirit of brotherhood, patience, tolerance, peace, restraint, forgiveness etc.

Ya Aly Madad

[shamsu]

My views in brief:
===========

You mention: Allah states in the Quran that he created with one word.

Quran reveals that everything is created from the Soul of Allah and not from the Word of Allah. In fact word of Allah is guidance and not a command. For example,

Al-Araf, or The Heights
29) Say: "My Lord hath commanded justice; and that ye set your whole selves (to Him) at every time and place of prayer, and call upon Him, making your devotion sincere such as He created you in the beginning, so shall ye return."

By the word of Allah he has commanded justice - but does each and every one live according to the command - no. In fact, Quran mentions so many things, live in peace, go by truth, etc. etc. So, word of allah is not a command but guidance - you either follow it or you do not. and Quran itself demonstrates that there were rumor mongering, people used to do wrong things, etc. even though Allah's word was one should not rumor monger, not do wrong things.

To make matters clear, Quran reveals:

Al-Rad, or Thunder (XIII)
31) Had it been possible for a Quran to cause the mountains to move, or the earth to be torn as under, or the dead to speak, (this Quran would have done so). Nay, but Allah's is the whole command. ==

Light upon Light = Allah's Light is everywhere ---> this seems to fit OK.

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Ya Aly Madad altaf_rupani

Sometimes I have to use the other persons language to help him understand. Here is something from Usman's Quran, that you seemed enamoured with, which proves Allah's will is his word and he created with his command (which is comprised of words, in case you thought otherwise)

036.079
YUSUFALI: Say, "He will give them life Who created them for the first time! for He is Well-versed in every kind of creation!-
PICKTHAL: Say: He will revive them Who produced them at the first, for He is Knower of every creation,
SHAKIR: Say: He will give life to them Who brought them into existence at first, and He is cognizant of all creation

036.080
YUSUFALI: "The same Who produces for you fire out of the green tree, when behold! ye kindle therewith (your own fires)!
PICKTHAL: Who hath appointed for you fire from the green tree, and behold! ye kindle from it.
SHAKIR: He Who has made for you the fire (to burn) from the green tree, so that with it you kindle (fire).

036.081
YUSUFALI: "Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth able to create the like thereof?" - Yea, indeed! for He is the Creator Supreme, of skill and knowledge (infinite)!
PICKTHAL: Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth Able to create the like of them? Aye, that He is! for He is the All-Wise Creator,
SHAKIR: Is not He Who created the heavens and the earth able to create the like of them? Yea! and He is the Creator (of all), the Knower.

036.082
YUSUFALI: Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, "be", and it is!
PICKTHAL: But His command, when He intendeth a thing, is only that He saith unto it: Be! and it is.
SHAKIR: His command, when He intends anything, is only to say to it: Be, so it is.

Are you still going to insist that creation was not from one word?

[roxy]

Creation of Allah - No Allah did not create anything with his word.
---------------------------
You can see there are millions and millions of birth taking place each day - not just human beings, but animals, birds, insects, mud, stone, computers, airoplanes, shoes, snakes, fish, monkeys, lions, tigers, elephants, hundreds of types of insects and what not - and there are just 24 hours in a day - do you think Allah has the time for giving his word to each and every creation ? I do not think so and as far as I am concerned creation is by though and by his will and not by word - more so, since God is one and there are millions of each creation per day and physically God just cannot create millions of things per day in a physical sense by speaking. To add to this creation is at differen places in the world - so do you think god must be doing a lot of running around the world saying BE, BE, BE, .... or he must be saying "BE" an animal in India at so and so place, "BE" a human being in USA at so and so place, "BE" a fish in the water at so and so place - "BE" an egg in Europe at so and so place. How can only BE be sufficient. So here only BE is not sufficient - BE but what BE ?

[shamsu]

Creation of Allah - No Allah did not create anything with his word.
---------------------------
You can see there are millions and millions of birth taking place each day - not just human beings, but animals, birds, insects, mud, stone, computers, airoplanes, shoes, snakes, fish, monkeys, lions, tigers, elephants, hundreds of types of insects and what not - and there are just 24 hours in a day - do you think Allah has the time for giving his word to each and every creation ? I do not think so and as far as I am concerned creation is by though and by his will and not by word - more so, since God is one and there are millions of each creation per day and physically God just cannot create millions of things per day in a physical sense by speaking. To add to this creation is at differen places in the world - so do you think god must be doing a lot of running around the world saying BE, BE, BE, .... or he must be saying "BE" an animal in India at so and so place, "BE" a human being in USA at so and so place, "BE" a fish in the water at so and so place - "BE" an egg in Europe at so and so place. How can only BE be sufficient. So here only BE is not sufficient - BE but what BE ?

Roxy
When we live in time and space and try to understand that which is above all else with our limited Human Intellect which is itself a creation of Allah, this type of post is what results.

The concept of a limited human intellect being able to understanding God is inherently flawed.
Our entire existance is contingent upon him and He is completely independent of all else.

He is above and beyond our highest evolved thought. Al- Muta'ali is one of the Names of Allah. Along with As-Samad and Al-Ahad.

We have lived our entire lives in the realm of time, Eternity is a concept we cannot even fathom.

The humility required in this search comes as you progress in it and eventually realize that you are so insignificant against his Vastness that you give up your Identity in the process and become fana (annihilated).

"Mai aur tu ki doori cchor, Ek dekh kuch do nahin
Aisa samaj fana ho usme, tu nahi to woh sahi hai.

Think of a bubble floating in the air. What comparision is the air inside it to the rest of the atmosphere.
The bubble cannot even fathom the vastness of the atmosphere of this earth.
Now, when the bubble bursts it becomes one with the atmosphere. The only thing between its identity and the Vast Air around it was it's identity itself.
This example is a MINISCULE one compared to the vastness of Allah and our limited selves.

I believe the search to be to recognize the self and discover that our identity is in fact nothing but a spiritual delusion. (A false belief that we exist as seperate from Allah)

The waves in the Ocean may think themselves to be seperate from the ocean and argue with each other on the Forums of Ismaili.net but they were never, are not and never will be seperated from the Vast Limitless Ocean of Allah.

So let us progress towards discovering self instead of trying to Understand Him, Who defies Human understanding as he is above and beyond the Human Imagination.