first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 1:49 pm

tret

Joined: 09 Sep 2010
Posts: 1110

Posted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:47 am Post subject:

Mazhar,

The purpose of change is to become actualized. Perfection without change is impossible. Day and night is actualized and perfected by rotation of the earth. Our individual souls become actualized by 'polishing'. You attain education to actualize your knowledge by attending school. These are perpetual changes that are occurring towards ultimate actualization. Think of it as act of 'walking to school' vs 'seeing'. Act of walking to school is only actualized once you reached your destination. However, act of 'seeing' is perfect in each moment. Act of God is also perfect in each awakening moment. And, since God is perfect; therefore, there's no change applicable to God. If we agree on that, therefore same is true for the Essence and Will of God, which must be perfect.

Reply to Tret;

Dear Tret,
No doubt God is perfect and I believe His acts and orders are perfect. Is God rigid? Has He done His duty after creation of universe? Is He like Brahma in Hindu mythology, create the universe and sit aside. In my previous post I quoted the following ayat from surah RA'AD
ayat # 11. INNA ALLAH LA UGHAYYIRU MA BI QOUMIN HATTA UGHAYYIRU MA BI ANFUSIHIM. Meaning; Indeed Allah does not change the conditions of people unless they change that which is in their hearts. Please look at the word UGHAYYIRU, it is in present tense and is used for future too. It shows God is active. Look at words Inna Allah la ughayyiru. Indeed Allah does not change, it means change will come from God because He is authority. Let us take other example, Allah in Quran says
KUN FAYAKUN. Kun is an order means BE and that happens immediately without time factor. Don't you think the word KUN is related to change. The universe is expanding as science is saying. Now question arises, Is God creating and adding new matter or is streaching the old one. Is that expansion without planning? I am not challenging God's personality (though there is no comparison to Him in universe ) but His management of universe needs His order and order is related to change.
Tret, 5000 years back why not humans made cars, computers, aero planes, smart phones etc. Was that not in God's plan? or He wanted science and technology should advance mostly in 20th century. Is this not called change according to will of God? In my brain's computer God may have put celleron chip and in new generation's brain, He may have put pentium 7. New generation is smarter than me. Is this not change according to will of God?

tret · Post by **tret** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:22 pm

mazhar wrote:
Dear Tret,
No doubt God is perfect and I believe His acts and orders are perfect. Is God rigid? Has He done His duty after creation of universe? Is He like Brahma in Hindu mythology, create the universe and sit aside. In my previous post I quoted the following ayat from surah RA'AD
ayat # 11. INNA ALLAH LA UGHAYYIRU MA BI QOUMIN HATTA UGHAYYIRU MA BI ANFUSIHIM. Meaning; Indeed Allah does not change the conditions of people unless they change that which is in their hearts. Please look at the word UGHAYYIRU, it is in present tense and is used for future too. It shows God is active. Look at words Inna Allah la ughayyiru. Indeed Allah does not change, it means change will come from God because He is authority. Let us take other example, Allah in Quran says
KUN FAYAKUN. Kun is an order means BE and that happens immediately without time factor. Don't you think the word KUN is related to change. The universe is expanding as science is saying. Now question arises, Is God creating and adding new matter or is streaching the old one. Is that expansion without planning? I am not challenging God's personality (though there is no comparison to Him in universe ) but His management of universe needs His order and order is related to change.
Tret, 5000 years back why not humans made cars, computers, aero planes, smart phones etc. Was that not in God's plan? or He wanted science and technology should advance mostly in 20th century. Is this not called change according to will of God? In my brain's computer God may have put celleron chip and in new generation's brain, He may have put pentium 7. New generation is smarter than me. Is this not change according to will of God?

Mazhar,

I will be honest with you, I am not familiar at all with hindu methology.

Let's clarify this first:

- Do you believe "Change" is for perfection or to become better? In other words, when something changes, mostly it is to become better or a better version of it. i.e. your example of computer's processor...

If you agree, then if Will [Essence] of God changes, does it not imply that Will [Essence] of God needs perfection. But, we agree that that's not the case and Will [Essence] of God is already perfect and no change required.

What you are saying is about evolution of human civilization and not Will of God.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Apr 03, 2015 3:32 pm

5000 years back why not humans made cars, computers, aero planes, smart phones etc. Was that not in God's plan?

Simple answer! that things were not necessary at that time, but science was way advance in comparison of modern science!!

Below are few proofs:-

-Who made the Egypt's Pyramids? they are more than 3000 years old!!
-Why our pirs has mentioned 'VIMAN' spaceships in their ginans?
" Swarg lok mahenthi viman avaya, ne utrya te pele par"

-The history of science and technology in India/Pakistan dates back to pre-modern times. The Indus Valley civilization yields evidence of hydrography, metrology, and sewage collection and disposal being
practiced by its inhabitants.

- If you consider Hindu scripture as a proof then : During Treta Yug "Ravan had 'PUSHPAK' viman which was he used to kidnapped Sita!

- There are many ancients vimans names available in Hindu Scriptures like Tripura viman, Rukma, Sundar Vimans e.t.c.

The only reason I can say" why car was note invented earlier because Allah does not wants because in quran he says he made camels and donkeys for your rides!!! so he didn't let invent cars

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:20 am

[quote="agakhani]The only reason I can say" why car was note invented earlier because Allah does not wants because in quran he says he made camels and donkeys for your rides!!! so he didn't let invent cars [/quote]
Actually the age of the Dwapura Yuga was far advanced but they did not produce cars because the population was not large enough to sustain large scale industries. The population was about 25 million compared to 6 billion today. In the book: The Yugas by Selbie and Steinmetz it is stated:

"Six billion people comprise a lot of mouths to feed and bodies to clothe and shelter. Necessity has definitely displayed her maternal nature by responding to the enormous demands such a large population creates. In the very short period of time since the 1700 AD beginning of ascending Dwapura Yuga, invention after invention to provide food, clothing, shelter, improve lives, make money and, alas, fight wars, have spilled out into the world.

But would the same explosion of invention and technology have happened if the 1700 AD world population had only been 25 million? For one thing, our current infrastructure - electric generation, transportation, communication, manufacturing, and the acquisition of raw materials - even if greatly scaled down, would require millions more people to maintain than were alive at any point during descending Dwapura Yuga."(pg. 255)

....
"Instead of the great machines and vast infrastructure of today, the technologies developed in descending Dwapura Yuga were in proportion to what the population could support. What we see in ancient Dwapura Yuga is high knowledge and low complexity. The Great Pyramid, for example, demonstrates knowledge of mathematics, subtle energy, and the application of advanced techniques for precision construction, and yet is made from simple stone".(pg. 256)

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 4:28 am

mazhar wrote: Now question arises, Is God creating and adding new matter or is streaching the old one. Is that expansion without planning? I am not challenging God's personality (though there is no comparison to Him in universe ) but His management of universe needs His order and order is related to change.
Tret, 5000 years back why not humans made cars, computers, aero planes, smart phones etc. Was that not in God's plan? or He wanted science and technology should advance mostly in 20th century. Is this not called change according to will of God? In my brain's computer God may have put celleron chip and in new generation's brain, He may have put pentium 7. New generation is smarter than me. Is this not change according to will of God?

Actually the change does not take place in God the Absolute but rather in the illusion of space and time created in His Dream Conciousness.

Paramahansa Yogananda in his commentary of Bhagavad Gita (X:30) states:

"God is the Eternal Consciousness, unchanging and indivisible, in which the illusions of time (change) and space (division) present an infinite variety of forms interacting in a progressive mode of past, present, and future. When a dreamer travels around the world in his dream, he does so, not in space and time, but in his consciousness only. Similarly, the cosmic dream is occurring neither in vast space nor in a series of past, present, and future time, but in the Eternal Now of God's dream consciousness. Because Jesus was attuned to this eternal consciousness, he could say: "Before Abraham was, I am." (John *:58). He knew his everlastingness was in no manner interrupted by the illusory changes called birth, existence, and death.

God has no respect for "history," man's limited and erroneous measuring conceptions of time and space, for He can produce any past being, object, or event instantaneously in His ever present dream consciousness. Likewise, in a second, He can dissolve this world and its beings - or the entire cosmos - and then bring them back at will, just as they were. All He has to do is to stop dreaming this world and it ceases to be; or He can dream back again by materializing it in His consciousness. These capricious categories of time and space are offshoots of the Cosmic Dreamer's fancy. By Divine Imaginings, dream pictures of universes can be made to appear and disappear in the tiniest space and minutest moment in a single frozen thought of the Cosmic Dreamer.

Devotees who realize the dream nature of this cosmos and the dreaming power of God no longer rely on the misleading illusions of Nature's measures, the conclusions from which make creation seem often harsh and unjust. They look to the Eternal Consciousness, the Sole Time, that knows no distress of change - Immutable Time, referred to in X:33."

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 1:59 pm

[quote="agakhani" 5000 years back why not humans made cars, computers, aero planes, smart phones etc. Was that not in God's plan?
Aghakhani wrote;

The only reason I can say" why car was note invented earlier because Allah does not wants because in quran he says he made camels and donkeys for your rides!!! so he didn't let invent cars.

Reply by Mazhar,

Aghakhani read my post to Tret completely. The discussion is about perfection of God. Once again you took the quote out of context and showed your scholarship as usual per your habit. You wrote," Why cars were not invented earlier because Allah does not want because in Quran He says, He made camels and donkeys for your ride."
Aghakhanii, at the time of Pir Sadruddin did KHOJAS drive Lexus, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Chevy or Jaguar. At that time khojas were riding on donkeys and elephants too. Aghakhani SMILE, O, OH not that wide, yeh that smile is better and perfect on your face. Let me quote Farman of Hazar Imam. He said," SMILE, IT IS BLESSING FROM ALLAH."
Aghakhani, Tujhey chher ke merey ku bahuuuut majja aati hai.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:14 pm

Aghakhanii, at the time of Pir Sadruddin did KHOJAS drive Lexus, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Chevy or Jaguar. At that time khojas were riding on donkeys and elephants too.

No, Khojas and momnas were riding on bullock carts, in which they can sit easily same like we can sit in modern cars those Bullock carts were widely available during pir sadardin time !! so there were no need for Lexus and Mercedes ( which I drive today) cars !!!!! but I read that the central Asians still riding on yalks ( donkeys) even today!!! ha. ha. ha.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 3:45 pm

yes brother Mazhar Urfe whatever!!

I read your above post carefully that Allah is the perfect nobody else but there is one and only Allah!! am I right?
but in quran I see many Allahs !!! ask me why? because there are many contradictory ayas which goes opposite of one ayas to another ayas !!
let me give you a quick example :-
Quran says there is no shape of Allah!!!!

but in other ayas Allah says he makes human being as per his own face!!!!

doesn't it contradictory statements of Allah in quran? if not then what is that?
one quranic ayas says that Allah sit on chair and four angels has hold his chairs! does Allah is a human being? so that he has to sit on a chair and 4 angels has to hold it????

We know Allah can not make mistakes but how this kind contradictory statements arised in quran?? because Quran has been changed!!! I have many prrofs to post here but as I voluntarily withdrawn my self not to go very deep in Quran I will not post it here.

but I will tell you one thing Quran is not complete, it is altered, edited, changed many times before! the real quran is in possession of imams and pirs, in forms of farmans and ginans! period.
I can show you many farmans of imams which can proves that Quran is nothing else but a book.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:05 pm

But I will tell you one thing Quran is not complete, it is altered, edited, changed many times before! the real quran is in possession of imams and pirs, in forms of farmans and ginans! period.
I can show you many farmans of imams which can proves that Quran is nothing else but a book.

Mearly repeating same thing does not prove anything. You just cannot depend on late Imam's farman in Junaghad some hundred years ago. He died without writhing a single word of 40 chapter quran. He was just trying to impress his Murids then, who would just believe anything he said.

If imam possesses true version of quran he should step forward and produce it. Why would he kiss (as related by kmaherali) phony incomplete, altered , edited and changed Quran?

It has become a slogan for ismailis. "O only Imam possesses real Quran"

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Sun Apr 05, 2015 6:07 pm

agakhani

Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 2019
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: 05 Apr 2015 10:45 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

yes brother Mazhar Urfe whatever!!

I read your above post carefully that Allah is the perfect nobody else but there is one and only Allah!! am I right?
but in quran I see many Allahs !!! ask me why? because there are many contradictory ayas which goes opposite of one ayas to another ayas !!
let me give you a quick example :-
Quran says there is no shape of Allah!!!!
but in other ayas Allah says he makes human being as per his own face!!!!
doesn't it contradictory statements of Allah in quran? if not then what is that?
one quranic ayas says that Allah sit on chair and four angels has hold his chairs! does Allah is a human being? so that he has to sit on a chair and 4 angels has to hold it????

Reply to Aghakhani,
I have objection on your wrongfully mentioning and translation of ayats in your above paragraph.
1. He makes human beings as per His own face.
2. Allah sat on chair and 4 angles are holding chair.
Please read Quran carefully and give proper surah and ayat #s.
Mowla ALI was caliph for 5 years, if there have been mistakes He should have corrected them. Please read the Farman of MHI made on August 17, 2007 in Daressalam,Tanzania regarding Quran and other Farmans of MSMS on Quran which I have posted during discussions.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 12:58 am

mazhar wrote:Mowla ALI was caliph for 5 years, if there have been mistakes He should have corrected them. Please read the Farman of MHI made on August 17, 2007 in Daressalam,Tanzania regarding Quran and other Farmans of MSMS on Quran which I have posted during discussions.

If Hazarat Ali made corrections to the existing Qur'an, it would have created disunity in the Umma, hence he accepted the Uthmanic Version in the same spirit as he accepted the first 3 Caliphs although he did not consider them as legitimate. Acceptance for the sake of unity does not imply that it was not tampered with in the compilation process. Hence we are told to study the Qur'an under the guidance of the Imam.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 3:40 am

zznoor wrote:
But I will tell you one thing Quran is not complete, it is altered, edited, changed many times before! the real quran is in possession of imams and pirs, in forms of farmans and ginans! period.
I can show you many farmans of imams which can proves that Quran is nothing else but a book.
Mearly repeating same thing does not prove anything. You just cannot depend on late Imam's farman in Junaghad some hundred years ago. He died without writhing a single word of 40 chapter quran. He was just trying to impress his Murids then, who would just believe anything he said.

If imam possesses true version of quran he should step forward and produce it. Why would he kiss (as related by kmaherali) phony incomplete, altered , edited and changed Quran?

It has become a slogan for ismailis. "O only Imam possesses real Quran"

MHI producing it in the form of FARMANS, and we receives this Real QURAN from the time of Creation. By the manifest Imam and Manifest prophetic light.

It's is the great Sin for us( Ismailis) to believe that Allah's hidayat is only limited in some 30 chapters. Allah give his hidayat to us in every era as Manifest Imam.

Those 1 billion+ who accepted usmani book and ignore imamat or those who accept imamat of others are degraded in this era and you know that.....they widely known as AL QAIDAS, TALIBANS, TERRORISTS ETC, and that's true, even your best Christian friend in USA has something in the corner of his heart something like " MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS" .99 % did not read Quran and fight over it, interpreted it wrong( JIHAAD) etc.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:17 am

It has become a slogan for ismailis. "O only Imam possesses real Quran"

Yes that is true! if you believe that way: that it has become a slogan for us then it is a slogan for us and which is true so there is nothing to hide in it but but what about your opinion as every one saying without hesitation that "Muslims are terrorist" because they have taken wrongly quranic teaching on"Zehad"!! CAN YOU SHOW ME ANY SINGLE ISMAILI; AS AN TERRORIST OR HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN TERRORISM TO KILL INNOCENT PERSONS!? nope because there is a none! because we have Imam and he who guide us !

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Mon Apr 06, 2015 8:23 am

[quote]Mowla ALI was caliph for 5 years, if there have been mistakes He should have corrected them./quote]

Mowla Ali didn't corrected it to keep unity among Muslims.

Whatever Quran we have now is the only one we ! therefore MSM and current imam gives references from current quran just for timebeing!!

knowing one of day the real quran along with missing 10 paras will be introduced by from one of Imam! this is not my predictions but I have farmanic proofs.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:49 pm

Tret wrote;
Mazhar,
I will be honest with you, I am not familiar at all with hindu methology.

Let's clarify this first:

- Do you believe "Change" is for perfection or to become better? In other words, when something changes, mostly it is to become better or a better version of it. i.e. your example of computer's processor...

If you agree, then if Will [Essence] of God changes, does it not imply that Will [Essence] of God needs perfection. But, we agree that that's not the case and Will [Essence] of God is already perfect and no change required.

What you are saying is about evolution of human civilization and not Will of God.
Reply to Tret,
There are unlimited laws of nature amongst them are law of necessity, law of change, and law of evolution. These laws work within their perimeters and are inter related to each other.God programmed the laws of nature for every category of creation in universe. Also these laws keep changing within their perimeters like -/+, up/down, right /left, quantity wise, quality wise and so on. But these laws and changes within are not affecting God because He is above those laws. So God is perfect, and His will is perfect. Yes, evolution in other words mean progress and betterment but again evolution falls in domain of change positive or negative and change is related to law of necessity also. God is beyond imagination, beyond intelectual, beyond comparison. Quran says,He is Ahad, Samad, kulahu kufuwan Ahad, but His nature is within imagination and intelectual. We can discuss nature of God but not God Himself. When we discuss God we are lost,no consensus

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 12:53 pm

Reply to Tret,
There are unlimited laws of nature amongst them are law of necessity, law of change, and law of evolution. These laws work within their perimeters and are inter related to each other.God programmed the laws of nature for every category of creation in universe. Also these laws keep changing within their perimeters like -/+, up/down, right /left, quantity wise, quality wise and so on. But these laws and changes within are not affecting God because He is above those laws. So God is perfect, and His will is perfect. Yes, evolution in other words mean progress and betterment but again evolution falls in domain of change positive or negative and change is related to law of necessity also. God is beyond imagination, beyond intelectual, beyond comparison. Quran says,He is Ahad, Samad, kulahu kufuwan Ahad, but His nature is within imagination and intelectual. We can discuss nature of God but not God Himself. When we discuss God we are lost,no consensus. By nature I mean laws of nature.

tret · Post by **tret** » Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:13 pm

mazhar wrote:Reply to Tret,
There are unlimited laws of nature amongst them are law of necessity, law of change, and law of evolution. These laws work within their perimeters and are inter related to each other.God programmed the laws of nature for every category of creation in universe. Also these laws keep changing within their perimeters like -/+, up/down, right /left, quantity wise, quality wise and so on. But these laws and changes within are not affecting God because He is above those laws. So God is perfect, and His will is perfect. Yes, evolution in other words mean progress and betterment but again evolution falls in domain of change positive or negative and change is related to law of necessity also. God is beyond imagination, beyond intelectual, beyond comparison. Quran says,He is Ahad, Samad, kulahu kufuwan Ahad, but His nature is within imagination and intelectual. We can discuss nature of God but not God Himself. When we discuss God we are lost,no consensus. By nature I mean laws of nature.

So, I guess you are echoing the same thing, as "Will / Essence of God doesn't change".

I agree with you on God being beyond human intellect and transcends all changes and evolutions.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Apr 09, 2015 12:47 am

mazhar wrote:We can discuss nature of God but not God Himself. When we discuss God we are lost,no consensus. By nature I mean laws of nature.

I think it would be more accurate to say we can discuss his supreme manifestation but not his nature. His nature is beyond description...

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 6:21 pm

I have noticed when Imam visited any central Asian country, he started farman with BISMILLAHIR RAHMANIR RAHIM. Where as in Sub Continent,Europe, USA,
African countries or Canada he does not start farman with BISMILLAH--------
Any reason ?

Post by **Admin** » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:20 pm

I think in some countries where large number of non-Ismailis may be present during Didar, he delivers a mix of speech and Farmans as he address to his Spiritual Children but also to "brothers is Islam and other faith"

The Bismillah is part of the Speech.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:06 am

Ya Ali Madad.
Rightly said Admin.
Among khoja tradition jamats.it is 100% of them in a closed area or space with NO external media or state media recording it.
Well Central Asian countries after their break up still many may b having parts of constitution of the then soviet Era,where religion was banned and no external person or institutions has right over its citizen. which is punishable by law.
Imam has many enemies n serpents n they moniter every word he says and what he does.
My personal observation are.Please correct me.
1 The constitution of those countries may misread or intrepet what an outsider call it citizens as xyz...It can b subject to legal litigations by enemy moles there.
2. those event have mainly taken open arena with non Ismaili presence and state media recording it.

I saw a video in which I could observe lip reading when MHI arrived in Dubai for Ismaili center opening to replying to local government with 'wale kum as sallam' and ismailis as 'Thank you n my best blessings'
He sounds of what is expected from him.
somebody had posted Ginan extract 'Evaa sahebji na wacha......
I am not a historian in Ginan
To Admin: ya ali madad.You mentioned the year 1983 somewhere, Was charter of AKU in that year?.I find that year very important cosmologically.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:22 am

Admin wrote:I think in some countries where large number of non-Ismailis may be present during Didar, he delivers a mix of speech and Farmans as he address to his Spiritual Children but also to "brothers is Islam and other faith"

The Bismillah is part of the Speech.

Also when he is in the audience of non-Ismailis, he would read out prepared speeches as opposed to delivering extempo as in Farmans.

Post by **Admin** » Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:21 am

nuseri wrote: To Admin: ya ali madad.You mentioned the year 1983 somewhere, Was charter of AKU in that year?.I find that year very important cosmologically.

That was the Silver Jubilee year with many Imamat projects.

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:03 am

I think it was in Azerbaijan country - as I heard that many non-Ismailis peoples were also gathered in deedar hall!!

Post by **Admin** » Tue Aug 11, 2015 9:04 am

There has not been to my knowledge any formal Didar in Azerbaidjan. You may be referring to Tajikistan, Syria...

agakhani_1 · Post by **agakhani_1** » Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:04 am

You may be right, but that country was once a part of Soviet Union.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:03 pm

Admin wrote:I think in some countries where large number of non-Ismailis may be present during Didar, he delivers a mix of speech and Farmans as he address to his Spiritual Children but also to "brothers is Islam and other faith"

The Bismillah is part of the Speech.

Reply,

Past many years, non Ismaili spouses and their children of an Ismaili are allowed at time of didar to participate and listen to farman mostly in western countries. Why Imam do not start delivering farman with Bismillah------------
while non Ismailis are listening to farman. Philosophy of Bismillah is very important in Shia Islam and with Ismailis particularly.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:12 pm

kmaherali wrote:
Admin wrote:I think in some countries where large number of non-Ismailis may be present during Didar, he delivers a mix of speech and Farmans as he address to his Spiritual Children but also to "brothers is Islam and other faith"

The Bismillah is part of the Speech.
Also when he is in the audience of non-Ismailis, he would read out prepared speeches as opposed to delivering extempo as in Farmans.

Reply,

Are Ismailis Muslim or not?
While making farman, does Imam says to non Ismailis, please put ear plugs in your ears now I am making a farman to my followers! The philosophy of Bismillah is very important to Ismailis. Mowla Ali said," Ana nukta tullati tahtal baai Bismillah."

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:41 pm

mazharshah wrote:
Past many years, non Ismaili spouses and their children of an Ismaili are allowed at time of didar to participate and listen to farman mostly in western countries. Why Imam do not start delivering farman with Bismillah------------
while non Ismailis are listening to farman. Philosophy of Bismillah is very important in Shia Islam and with Ismailis particularly.

The non-Ismaili spouses are not in the same hall as Ismailis. They are in s separate hall and cannot hear what happens in the main hall.

At times when the Imam gives deedar to his murids only and if there are non-Ismailis present, he indicates that the individual leave the hall.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:08 pm

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:
Past many years, non Ismaili spouses and their children of an Ismaili are allowed at time of didar to participate and listen to farman mostly in western countries. Why Imam do not start delivering farman with Bismillah------------
while non Ismailis are listening to farman. Philosophy of Bismillah is very important in Shia Islam and with Ismailis particularly.
The non-Ismaili spouses are not in the same hall as Ismailis. They are in s separate hall and cannot hear what happens in the main hall.

At times when the Imam gives deedar to his murids only and if there are non-Ismailis present, he indicates that the individual leave the hall.

Reply,

In Karachi I know quite few non Ismaili persons who claimed that they were present at the didar gatherings in garden and Karimabad area, and this I heard from other sources too, but Imam did not asked those non Ismailis to leave the pandaal.