After death

[tret]

Whatever the current IMAM says is black and white. It is the right interpretation. Anything said by any other than the current IMAM's sayings are either historic interpretations or that individual's personal opinion.

I just gave you mutiple interpretations on the 7th prophet thing you are referring to in the other forum. We can sit together and create a few more interpretations if you like. Which one will be correct only the IMAM can tell us. That is why we have an IMAM.

You can provide all the sources you want. They are still interpretations of statements made that are complex for Khalil or anyone else to understand. That is the job of the IMAM to provide us with the right interpretations. Anything, Khalil, you, I or anyone else provides is just a possibility, it can be right, wrong or totally irrelevant.

An example would be much appreciated.

Yeah, I guess so. At the end, it all boils down to every individual's level of understanding and inspiration. I believe there's nothing wrong with seeking knowledge, provided it would lead to realization and inspiration.

So, I'd love to hear your side of the story about all this. Pick your favorite topic and tell me what you believe? say for example, the concept of creation.

[sheri]

Yeah, I guess so. At the end, it all boils down to every individual's level of understanding and inspiration. I believe there's nothing wrong with seeking knowledge, provided it would lead to realization and inspiration.

So, I'd love to hear your side of the story about all this. Pick your favorite topic and tell me what you believe? say for example, the concept of creation.

Exactly, everyone should seek knowledge because it does lead to realization and inspiration. But, following this site for the past 10 years I have seen individuals drilling their interpretations as the tenants of Ismailism. We need to separate the interpretations from the facts.

An example is the Ali=Allah debate we have been having for the past few days. Fact is IMAM proclaims he is the "Mazhar" of Allah. Now if the IMAM has not defined the word "Mazhar" you can interpret it based on your level of inspiration and realization. But making the claim that Ali=Allah is the only right interpretation is incorrect. It is still an interpretation which may be right, wrong, or irrelevant unless the imam tells us what he means by the "Mazhar."

[sheri]

the concept of creation.

There are enough interpretations about the rise and fall of adam from a ismaili perspective, the parables drawn from the quran, the scientific refutals etc. These are all interpretations and by providing my interpretation I will only add to the list of different interpretations that all the various religions independently hold.

The IMAM has not decided to release the interpretation for creation. When he does, I will believe that to be the only right one. Until then, all the reading about creation is a brain exercise.

[tret]

the concept of creation.

There are enough interpretations about the rise and fall of adam from a ismaili perspective, the parables drawn from the quran, the scientific refutals etc. These are all interpretations and by providing my interpretation I will only add to the list of different interpretations that all the various religions independently hold.

The IMAM has not decided to release the interpretation for creation. When he does, I will believe that to be the only right one. Until then, all the reading about creation is a brain exercise.

Then I guess you will be waiting till the 7th (The Qai'm), if we live till then.

I mean are you not curious at all? Has it not ever crossed your mind to pose yourself this question?

[tret]

Yeah, I guess so. At the end, it all boils down to every individual's level of understanding and inspiration. I believe there's nothing wrong with seeking knowledge, provided it would lead to realization and inspiration.

So, I'd love to hear your side of the story about all this. Pick your favorite topic and tell me what you believe? say for example, the concept of creation.

Exactly, everyone should seek knowledge because it does lead to realization and inspiration. But, following this site for the past 10 years I have seen individuals drilling their interpretations as the tenants of Ismailism. We need to separate the interpretations from the facts.

An example is the Ali=Allah debate we have been having for the past few days. Fact is IMAM proclaims he is the "Mazhar" of Allah. Now if the IMAM has not defined the word "Mazhar" you can interpret it based on your level of inspiration and realization. But making the claim that Ali=Allah is the only right interpretation is incorrect. It is still an interpretation which may be right, wrong, or irrelevant unless the imam tells us what he means by the "Mazhar."

I am not sure if you realized from my posts, my stand about Ali=Allah or not, but I think I clarified that I make a fine distinction. I don't want to re-repeat again.

But, can you please post the reference that MHI said He is the Mazhar of Allah?

So, what would you interpret when MHI says HE is Mazhar of Allah?

[sheri]

Then I guess you will be waiting till the 7th (The Qai'm), if we live till then.

I mean are you not curious at all? Has it not ever crossed your mind to pose yourself this question?

Or maybe you will keep waiting and the 7th prophet will never come because you misinterpreted the Quranic ayat.

I hope you can see the problem with you and me interpreting and trying to sell them to others as the only facts.

Please read the Ismaili constitution authorized by MHI:

"1.2 Mawlana Hazar Imam has the sole authority to:

(a) determine all questions that may arise as regards the meaning and interpretation of any religious or jamati tradition or custom of the Ismailis and amend or discontinue it at any time"

[sheri]

But, can you please post the reference that MHI said He is the Mazhar of Allah?

So, what would you interpret when MHI says HE is Mazhar of Allah?

Preface: This report incorporates the resolutions of Ismailia Association Conference which took place in Paris between the 1st and 5th April, 1975, both days inclusive. Mawlana Hazar Imam Shah Karim Al-Hussaini chaired the Conference, and all the resolutions contained herein are based on guidance received from, and as finally approved by, Mowlana Hazar Imam.

The concepts of Nabuwah and Imamah:
These concepts to be explained and understood in the general perspective of God’s communication to man. The Imam to be explained as the ‘mazhar’ of God, and the relationship between God and the Imam to be related to varying levels of inspiration and communication from God to man.

Source; Paris Conference.

[sheri]

So, what would you interpret when MHI says HE is Mazhar of Allah?

My interpretation will just add to the list of interpretations floating around on this website, such as the Ali=Allah interpretation.

Unless the IMAM does not interpret the meaning of 'Mazhar', till then I will admit that I have no clue. The day MHI tells the jamat what Mazhar means that will be exactly what it will mean and nothing else. Until then, you can believe what you want, but don't expect that it will become the tenant of the ismaili faith. Only the interpretation of the Mawlana Hazir Imam becomes the tenant of the ismaili faith as quoted from the ismaili constitution above.

[tret]

So, what would you interpret when MHI says HE is Mazhar of Allah?

My interpretation will just add to the list of interpretations floating around on this website, such as the Ali=Allah interpretation.

Unless the IMAM does not interpret the meaning of 'Mazhar', till then I will admit that I have no clue. The day MHI tells the jamat what Mazhar means that will be exactly what it will mean and nothing else. Until then, you can believe what you want, but don't expect that it will become the tenant of the ismaili faith. Only the interpretation of the Mawlana Hazir Imam becomes the tenant of the ismaili faith as quoted from the ismaili constitution above.

That's okay. The purpose of these discussion forums are to share and learn. There's nothing wrong in expressing your opinion. I express my opinion and understanding with no expectation that anyone agrees with me. Same is the case with yourself.

I guess what MHI says us through Farameen or HIS speeches, we should reflect on it. That's meant by "Varying level of inspiration". but, if we sit and wait for MHI to give a Farmaan on His own Farmaan, without us showing any aspiration or inspiration, I am not sure if it would be correct.

[sheri]

So, what would you interpret when MHI says HE is Mazhar of Allah?

My interpretation will just add to the list of interpretations floating around on this website, such as the Ali=Allah interpretation.

Unless the IMAM does not interpret the meaning of 'Mazhar', till then I will admit that I have no clue. The day MHI tells the jamat what Mazhar means that will be exactly what it will mean and nothing else. Until then, you can believe what you want, but don't expect that it will become the tenant of the ismaili faith. Only the interpretation of the Mawlana Hazir Imam becomes the tenant of the ismaili faith as quoted from the ismaili constitution above.

That's okay. The purpose of these discussion forums are to share and learn. There's nothing wrong in expressing your opinion. I express my opinion and understanding with no expectation that anyone agrees with me. Same is the case with yourself.

I guess what MHI says us through Farameen or HIS speeches, we should reflect on it. That's meant by "Varying level of inspiration". but, if we sit and wait for MHI to give a Farmaan on His own Farmaan, without us showing any aspiration or inspiration, I am not sure if it would be correct.

"The ismaili constitution states:
(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam)"

If MHI is responsible for the Tawil & Talim, then there is no need for you and I to do a further interpretation. What is the point of MHI's interpretation, if we will do another interpretation on top of it. What is the point of MHI interpreting if he will still talk in parables and leaves us to determine the meaning.

It is really simple, MHI tell us the interpretation and we have to show obedience. There is no if, buts, and when. All his farmans are very straight forward in black and white.

If there are things that are not clear, then individuals should seek the IMAM for the right answers. They can go on the quest of knowledge, and make interpretations, but then again those interpretations will only be applicable to that individual, unless MHI approves it.

[tret]

It is really simple, MHI tell us the interpretation and we have to show obedience. There is no if, buts, and when. All his farmans are very straight forward in black and white.

It's your understanding, and I certainly respect that.

If according to you, Farameen of MHI is so black and white, then please tell us what's your understanding of the "Imam is Mazhar of God"?

[sheri]

If there is a Farman on the definition of "Mazhar of Allah" then please direct me to it and I am certain that there will be no questions about it. But since there is no Farman yet, it is still a question that you are more than welcome to interpret. But again, that interpretation is only yours and it will likely be influenced by your side of ismaili history, your upbringing, your environment. In black and white, MHI is the Mazhar of Allah, and he has not explained the meaning of the title yet.

It is really simple, MHI tell us the interpretation and we have to show obedience. There is no if, buts, and when. All his farmans are very straight forward in black and white.

It's your understanding, and I certainly respect that.

If according to you, Farameen of MHI is so black and white, then please tell us what's your understanding of the "Imam is Mazhar of God"?

[a_27826]

Tret,

sorry to interrupt you discussion with Sheri.

You had once asked nuseri as to what he finds in the constitution which is objectable.

In the above post of Sheri, there is part of the constitution which reads

the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam)

I always thought rank of Imam/Shah was higher than the rank of Prophet/Pir and Prophet had declared/proclaimed/announced/delivered the message from God that Ali is the Imam. (refer 005:067, Declaration at Ghadir e Khumm and 005:003)

So how come the constitution says Prophet designated and appointed Imam ?

can you explain ?

[sheri]

This is the only true meaning of the role of the IMAM as it has been described by the IMAM himself in the constitution. Any other unofficial interpretation is just individuals using their hypothesis to connect their past beliefs (Vishnu, manifestation etc) and draw conclusions.

Tret,

sorry to interrupt you discussion with Sheri.

You had once asked nuseri as to what he finds in the constitution which is objectable.

In the above post of Sheri, there is part of the constitution which reads

the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam)

I always thought rank of Imam/Shah was higher than the rank of Prophet/Pir and Prophet had declared/proclaimed/announced/delivered the message from God that Ali is the Imam. (refer 005:067, Declaration at Ghadir e Khumm and 005:003)

So how come the constitution says Prophet designated and appointed Imam ?

can you explain ?

[ShamsB]

Tret,

sorry to interrupt you discussion with Sheri.

You had once asked nuseri as to what he finds in the constitution which is objectable.

In the above post of Sheri, there is part of the constitution which reads

the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam)

I always thought rank of Imam/Shah was higher than the rank of Prophet/Pir and Prophet had declared/proclaimed/announced/delivered the message from God that Ali is the Imam. (refer 005:067, Declaration at Ghadir e Khumm and 005:003)

So how come the constitution says Prophet designated and appointed Imam ?

can you explain ?

"O Apostle - deliver to the people what has been REVEALED" to thee from thy Lord."


I've highlighted the key word - WHAT WAS REVEALED???

where does appointment come in?

Shams

[sheri]

This ayat cannot be used by itself. Just go back one ayat and you will find the context.

5-66:
And if only they upheld [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to them from their Lord, they would have consumed [provision] from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them are a moderate community, but many of them - evil is that which they do.

5-67:
O Messenger, announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord, and if you do not, then you have not conveyed His message. And Allah will protect you from the people. Indeed, Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.

In this context, the revelation is the Quran. If in the previous verse the Quran mentions Torah, Gospel and other. Then the revelation obviously follows that Quran is the next revelation. Now this is my interpretation and it is not necessarily accurate and likewise with your interpretation.

Please provide any Farman by MHI to confirm your interpretation. Until, then it is only a thought by you.

[tret]

If there is a Farman on the definition of "Mazhar of Allah" then please direct me to it and I am certain that there will be no questions about it. But since there is no Farman yet, it is still a question that you are more than welcome to interpret. But again, that interpretation is only yours and it will likely be influenced by your side of ismaili history, your upbringing, your environment. In black and white, MHI is the Mazhar of Allah, and he has not explained the meaning of the title yet.

It is really simple, MHI tell us the interpretation and we have to show obedience. There is no if, buts, and when. All his farmans are very straight forward in black and white.

It's your understanding, and I certainly respect that.

If according to you, Farameen of MHI is so black and white, then please tell us what's your understanding of the "Imam is Mazhar of God"?

Imams Farameen and speechs are always heavy in meaning. Imam speaks so simple, but yet it has very deep meaning and requires us to contemplate and reflect to get to the real meaning of it. We need to use our intellect and knowledge to try to logically and reasonably, according to our tariqa make sense of things. Imam can inspire us, but it's us who are in our journey. Again, it's my view, and you have yours. I mean do you not every any idea of how you would take "Mazhar of God"? or you don't want to have any idea?

Your interpretation is affected certainly by the level of your understanding and knowledge; however, I am really not in favor of the background to affect our belief.

I stated earlier, and I think it's appropriate to mention once again. I have been raised in a very mainstream orthodox sunnie environment. I have been even attending regular prayers for some quite long time. But, looking back and reflecting on that; I really don't believe that it had any affect in my belief.

[tret]

Tret,

sorry to interrupt you discussion with Sheri.

You had once asked nuseri as to what he finds in the constitution which is objectable.

In the above post of Sheri, there is part of the constitution which reads

the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam)

I always thought rank of Imam/Shah was higher than the rank of Prophet/Pir and Prophet had declared/proclaimed/announced/delivered the message from God that Ali is the Imam. (refer 005:067, Declaration at Ghadir e Khumm and 005:003)

So how come the constitution says Prophet designated and appointed Imam ?

can you explain ?

My understanding is (and it's only mine, I don't want to impose on anyone).

Prophets have Wasis (Legatee) also known as Asas (Foundation).

Prophets deliver the Tanzil (exoteric) of the revelation, where as Wasi delivers the Tah'wil (esoteric) of the revelation.

Imam has Hujjat (Pir). Imam delivers the Tanzil and Hujjat delivers the Tah'wil.

Today, MHI is the Imam (Shah) and Hujjat(Pir); therefore, HE delivers the Tanzil and Tahwil of the revelation.

Now we can comparatively say

Imam = Natiq
Hujjat = Asas

I don't know, whether we can say the Prophet Appointed ALI or Declaired ALI as the Imam. I guess, declaration could be as appointment in this case? I would be curious to know, what different would it make to appoint or declare at that level; where the Prophet mentioned multiple times saying that "ALI and I are form the same Nur", "I am the city of knowledge and ALI is the door".

[sheri]

(B) In accordance with Shia doctrine, tradition, and interpretation of history, the Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) designated and appointed his cousin and son-in-law Hazrat Mawlana Ali Amiru-l-Mu'minin (Alayhi-s-salam), to be the first Imam to continue the Ta'wil and Ta'lim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids, and proclaimed that the Imamat should continue by heredity through Hazrat Mawlana Ali (A.S.) and his daughter Hazrat Bibi Fatimat-az-Zahra, Khatun-i-Jannat Alayha-s-salam).

The ismaili constitution clearly defines the role of the IMAM since the time of the first IMAM Hazrat Ali. "To continue the Tawil and Talim of Allah's final message and to guide the murids"

Tawil (esoteric) and Talim (I think is education).

[sheri]

Also note, there is no mention of Pir in the constitution. If IMAM really wanted to emphasize on the role of Pir then he would have mentioned it in the constitution.

I think everyone should read the two documents (Constitution & Paris Conference) thoroughly as they are the backbone of our beliefs and tariqah as publicly approved by MHI.

[star_munir]

Also note, there is no mention of Pir in the constitution. If IMAM really wanted to emphasize on the role of Pir then he would have mentioned it in the constitution.

I think everyone should read the two documents (Constitution & Paris Conference) thoroughly as they are the backbone of our beliefs and tariqah as publicly approved by MHI.

What about the Will of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah which declares his grandson Shah Karim al Hussaini to be Pir and Imam of Ismaili Muslims.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:

As observed that is there no Farman(an absolute ordinance on followers) ,whatsoever made by MHI to see n know him with.
the word 'Mazhar' was chosen by the leaders/NOT IMAM and resolution passed in circumstances to present the external belief ( not faith) to non Ismailis.
IIS is an approved institution of MHI any author presenting his view in a book published by IIS does not become a proclamation.
BTW 75% of the publications are from Non Ismaili writers.

simple common sense.
faith is something upwardly driven for a person.

so at Tariqat level a word Mazhar (very very intelligently chosen).
as concept in a resolutions (not an absolute conviction).

Now immediately the word 'varing levels' ,inspiration and communication from god follows in the context of 'Realtion of Imam with God'.
now the lower level,which is ignorant or common sense
He is not an Imam,just a normal human being like all of us.
then at tariqat level the highest level as is it understanding of word
which be closest with a thin veil of a reflective Index such as mirror or
still water.
It implies the Imam is mirror image/ reflection of Alah himself.
A level very fairly said for those who do not wish to be inspired MORE n
try to receive communication Allah.
If there is lower level
and level of mazhar at tariqat.
so inspiration HAS HAS to be haqiqat n Marifat level
to know relation of Imam with God.
th futher bleseed level in nothing but dilutions of relation but of ONENESS.
Inspired enough that word relation is diluted that IMAM self is God.
ahd still futhere to dilute oneself with God so relation of God
and man is ONE.(tahwid).
I personally see the word ALI is veiled in the word n name 'Allah'.
So the conference by spending all the money n time was needed to
lower the level of 'Imam with God'. but to come nearest possible legitimate word was selcted to suit the status.
so upwardly driven means if HE is mirror image at level 2
then his status would higher in level 3 of inspiration (haqiqat)
and oneness with his status in level 4 of communication from God
(marifat).
Please first have belief as an ismaile that our faith is upwardly driven as a part of Sufi tariqa,We pray daily for zahir,baatin n noorani Didar.
so when a educated and not ignorant person read something read the whole line or paragraph which is a totally part of it.

1. faith/conviction/inspiration is upwardly driven.

2. at Tariqat level i.e in physical seeing and rationally debating level
a word mazhar/reflection/mirror image was selected as a formal defination.

3. word such varing/diiferent levels is also written.

4.word inspiration/conviction is also written.
( if I was in drafting committee,I would opted for the word conviction.
5.word communication from God/noorani hidayat is written .

please read the words n understand it fairly if still not inspired to read deeply.
ALI IS THE SAME,IS THE 'UNDERSTANDING'/INSPIRATION OF THE PERSON
WHO IS AT 'VARING LEVELS'.
His level never ever changed from the day of the creation.
The human levels are in play to describe HIM.

for me ALI who created the world and the word Allah( very very very intelligently chosen by HIM) was sounded on earth much before Quran.I assume from the time of Hazrat Ibrahim.I may be incorrect here.
As observed that is there no Farman(an absolute ordinance on followers) ,whatsoever made by MHI .

the word 'Mazhar' was chosen by the leaders and resolution passed in circumstances to present the external belief ( not faith) to non Ismailis.
IIS is an approved institution of MHI any author presenting his view in a book published by IIS does not become a proclamation.
BTW 75% of the publications are from Non Ismaili writers.

simple common sense.
faith is something upwardly driven for a person.

so at Tariqat level a word Mazar (very very intelligently chosen).
as concept in a reslolation(not absolute conviction).

Now immeadiatly the word 'varing levels' ,inspiration and communcation from god follows in the context of 'Realtion of Imam with God'.
now the lower level,which is ignorant or common sense
He is not an Imam,just a normal human being like all of us.

then at tariqat level the highest level as is it understanding of word
which be closest with a thin veil of a reflective Index such as mirror or
still water.
It implies the Imam is mirror image/ reflection of Alah himself.
A level very fairly said for those who do not wish to be inspired MORE n
try to receive communication Allah.
If there is lower level
and level of mazhar at Tariqat.
so inspiration HAS HAS to be haqiqat n Marifat level
to know relation of Imam with God.
th futher bleseed level in nothing but dilutions of relation but of ONENESS.
Inspired enough that word relation is diluted that IMAM self is God.
ahd still futhere to dilute oneself with God so relation of God
and man is ONE.(tahwid).
I personally see the word ALI is veiled in the word n name 'Allah'.
So the conferance by spending all the money n time was needed to
lower the level of 'Imam with God'. but to come nearest possible legitimate word was selcted to suit the status.
so upwardly driven means if HE is mirror image at level 2
then his status would higher in level 3 of inspiration (haqiqat)
and oneness with his status in level 4 of communication from God
(marifat).
Please first have belief as an ismaile that our faith is upwardly driven as a part of Sufi tariqa,We pray daily for zahir,baatin n noorani Didar.
so when a educated and not ignorant person read something read the whole line or paragraph which is a totally part of it.

1. faith/conviction/inspiration is upwardly driven.

2. at Tariqat i.e in physical seeing and rationally debating level
a word mazhar/reflection/mirror image was selected as a formal defination.

3. word such varing/diiferent levels is also written.
4.word inspiration/conviction is also written.
( if I was in drafting committee,I would opted for the word conviction.
5.word communication from God/noorani hidayat is written .

please read the words n understand fairly if still not inspired to read deeply.
ALI IS THE SAME,IS THE UNDERSTANDING OF THE PERSON
WHO IS AT 'VARING LEVELS'.
His level never ever changed from the day of the creation.
The human levels are in play to describe HIM.

ALL THE BEST TO EVERYONE AT LEVELS THEY see.understand n believe in MHI.

[sheri]

Also note, there is no mention of Pir in the constitution. If IMAM really wanted to emphasize on the role of Pir then he would have mentioned it in the constitution.

I think everyone should read the two documents (Constitution & Paris Conference) thoroughly as they are the backbone of our beliefs and tariqah as publicly approved by MHI.

What about the Will of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah which declares his grandson Shah Karim al Hussaini to be Pir and Imam of Ismaili Muslims.

1.2 Mawlana Hazar Imam has the sole authority to:

(a) determine all questions that may arise as regards the meaning and interpretation of any religious or jamati tradition or custom of the Ismailis and amend or discontinue it at any time;

Only MHI knows better why Pir is not given much emphasis anymore as evident from the constitution and paris conference. I can use my imagination and come up with an explanation that will fit the premise but then again it may be right, wrong or irrelevant. So, I will refrain from doing that.

[sheri]

Ya Ali Madad:

As observed that is there no Farman(an absolute ordinance on followers) ,whatsoever made by MHI to see n know him with.
the word 'Mazhar' was chosen by the leaders/NOT IMAM and resolution passed in circumstances to present the external belief ( not faith) to non Ismailis.......

Please read the paris conference document top to bottom before making such comments. Here is the preface:

This report incorporates the resolutions of Ismailia Association Conference which took place in Paris between the 1st and 5th April, 1975, both days inclusive. Mawlana Hazar Imam Shah Karim Al-Hussaini chaired the Conference, and all the resolutions contained herein are based on guidance received from, and as finally approved by, Mowlana Hazar Imam.

"MHI chaired the conference."

Now everything else that you have mentioned in your post is your interpretation and I deeply respect that. Is it the right interpretation - maybe. Is it approved by MHI - definitely NO. Unless you get it approved, I will take your interpretation with a grain of salt.

[nuseri]

To Sheri;Ya Ali Madad.
Any approval of any resolution made by participants is mostly approved by ant chairperson of that meeting/conference.

It was not a Farman made by Imam to the Jamat immediately worldwide.
The word used is to 'explain'
TO WHOM IT IN NOT MENTIONED.
It was tactically formalized to the use that word to explain to NON Ismailis
(we Have beautiful Farmans/dua/tasbih from/of the Imams).

Any concept/idea or resolutions of leaded do not over rule IT ALL AT ANY TIME.
does abook written by a Shia/Sunni author of IIS is a proclaimation just because
IIS is an approved organ of the Imamat.

You because of your cursed faith or personal reason is telling that MHI
proclaimed.
An approval is not an Proclamation.
read the definations of both the words.
This concept resolutions was limited to Leaders n Official then because
they were repeatedly ask by NON Ismailis of Influence on then in 1975 and years ahead .
They were asked that you Ismailis recite this that in JK to Imam.

so to show peanuts to monkies that they DO NOT SEEK to ask more
a quasi legal document of approval was made to attach in matter of
visible belief NOT ABSOLUTE CONVICTION to government agencies
for permissions,grants,concessions.etc.
It was during 1975-83 when grandiose plans of Imamat were at planning stages i.e.
Ismaili center in UK.
IIS
Agakhan nursing school
AgaKhan university.
Agakhan Foundation.

It took more than 10 years to convince the authorities in Bangladesh to just to open a plain office of Aga Khan Foundation.

One rich wahabi country was playing havoc with its petrodollar strength
over poor muslim countries where Imamat wished to an Instutions. the same instructed to all poor countries seeking aid from them to deny entry
to Imam as well his organizations as a threat.
this concept was NEVER even went to Al waezs to 'expain' to jamat worldwide.
Inspite of the word 'explain' is mentioned before the word 'mazhar'.
If this would have happened there would million of sheri/tret/gin/vodka
type shallow Ismailis asking questions about his Divinity.
only maybe 100 of scholars may be knowing the content.
ask any Ismaili in JK.

they do not what/when was conference and the words
and the content.

SIMPLY IT WAS NOT MEANT FOR JAMAT BUT AS AN OFFICIAL attachment
in application where needed to government n officials seeking
belief of Ismailis of their Imam in legally written format( approved
resolutions maybe signed by the Imam)

It was like attaching one's approved bio data in job application.

THE RESOLUTIONS MADE BY LEADER IS NOT THE BINDING FAITH
FOR ISMAILI IT IS HIS FARMANS,DUA N TASBIH WHICH LISTEN RECITE
EVERYDAY ALL OUR LIVES.

please do not go gaga over peanuts shown to monkies
to keep our lavish meal intact in a picnic outing.

[sheri]

I doubt the constitution and the paris conference documents are just to please the public. MHI does not need to please the public. You are mixing the Hindu concepts of manifestation by making MHI = Allah.

In Islam, there is no concept of manifestations. The only concept in Islam and Ismailism has been well laid out in our constitution. Now if you don't even believe in the Ismaili constitution and you think that your knowledge is superior to the Ismaili constitution then there is nothing I can present to you that will change your mind otherwise.

For all ismaili, the constitution governs their beliefs and their actions as Ismailis. I don't understand why that is so difficult for your to accept when MHI has put that constitution together and asked jamats all around the world to follow it.

Anything that goes against your interpretations, you feel the Ismaili leaders are tricking you. Its your mind that is tricking you because you are using Hindu teaching to make sense of Ismailism. When you let go all the Hindu teaching and try to find Islam and Ismailism you will make progress. You should first start with respecting the Ismaili constitution and abide by it wholeheartedly.

[nuseri]

To Sheri:Ya Ali Madad.
yes constitution came much later than concept resolutions .It stand very much valid in affair of our community.
Asthe Imamat organization has grown and jamat has also matured to centralizedset of rules.
Is does absolutly the Faith.
which only Imam has right to interpret or change.
It has may level of protocal for religiois affair matter thru Tariqa board on petty matter.
The ABSOLUTE ORDER of the Imam is seen daily in JK matters faith
in Farmans dua,tasbih,ginan qasidas to understand.
Pages of conference papers n consitution is recited or sung in it's place.
Any printed matters relating affairs of the community is governed by the constitution.
As this is public domain.
the word mazhar is included as It is read by now media,donor agencies
government where Imamat network is there.
CONSTITUTION DOES NOT OVER RULE any dua tasbih Farman n approve ginan n qasidas which BY ORDER OF fARMAN AN ABSOLUTE ORDINANCE ON JAMAT.
All members here are learned and earning well in their feilds.
they all know what to follow for their souls.
Farmans or constitution.
Constitution is to be respected and used in relating to affairs concerning
the community
It is well written quasi legal document giving MHI total prerogative over faith matters which is dua,tasbih,farmans n rich tradition of ginans n qasida.
It does direct faith of an individual Ismaili.

It may/does express a belief of an Ismaili as to explain to outsiders that MHI of Allah to avoid any debate.

[sheri]

If these were documents for PR purposes then there was no need to bring in things like the following article:

Article 6.2.4 published in the Ismaili Paris Conference has asked all Jamats and individuals to "forward all firmans, whether in manuscript, printed or any other form, of Mowlana Sultan Mohammed Shah, Mowlana Shah Hassan Ali Shah, and Mowlana Aga Ali Shah, to the Ismaili Association of Pakistan by 31st Dec 1975. These bodies also request individual members of their respective jamats, through suitable announcements, to make available any such material that may be in their possession."

This article is very jamati related and MHI has included this as part of the Paris conference article.

You can follow your interpretations which are unlikely to ever get validated/approved. I will choose to follow what MHI has laid out in Black & White and what he directs in his firmans.

[tret]

I think it's important to clarify the concept of Allah(God), first and foremost, before getting into who or what is Allah(God).

If I recall correctly, nuseri asserted and I paraphrase -- and please correct me if I am wrong -- something like 'God is within me'.


According to my understanding, God transcends human intellects in every way. Human intellect is only capable of understanding things or concepts that is able to experience through their senses, such as touch, hear, taste, etc... For example, if i tell you 'cold', you immediately think of winter, snow, ice, freezer, etc... if tell you 'sweet' you think of honey, sugar, ice cream, etc... and if I tell you 'flying horse', now even if you haven't seen such thing, but you already know the concept of flying -- because you have seen a bird flying -- and you have seen a horse. So you can imagine a horse with wings. Mind has already experience these and come to understand it. God can not be understood with human intellect and we can't understand God's howness or whyness; we can only realize, but not understand GOD. So, even realization is enough for us. That's also mentioned in the Qur'an -- to believe in unseen.

So, how do we realize God, is the question. The personal aspect of God is the Eternal Imam or Nur of Imamat. Others also call it First Intellect or Univeral Intellect or The One, and all the divine attributes that we see in the Qur'an is associated with Personal aspect of God.

Ismailie philosophers and Theosophers asserts by double negating, such as God is not Kind, and God is not not-kind. God is not Just, and God is not not-Just. So, this way, there's not attachment and attributes to God. That's the Tawheed and Oneness of God.

Another example, the light of Sun is composed of various colors, red, green, orange, etc..., but we are not able to see it, unless it passes through a Crystal. Now, the Crystal is a medium which enables the observer to see the beauty of the rays which we aren't able to, otherwise. Now, to realize and hopefully and eventual unify with God, is to know and realize the Personal aspect of God, for human intellect only understands that.

[tret]

Can you please clarify the following, specifically the bold?

1. faith/conviction/inspiration is upwardly driven.

Also you alluded the following.

THE RESOLUTIONS MADE BY LEADER IS NOT THE BINDING FAITH
FOR ISMAILI IT IS HIS FARMANS,DUA N TASBIH WHICH LISTEN RECITE
EVERYDAY ALL OUR LIVES.

Can you please make reference to one of the following that implies ALI is ALLAH (OR IMAM is ALLAH)?

- A Farmaan
- Dua
- Tasbih


Note, I intentinally left our ginan and qasida, because you also didn't mention them.