quran as mentioned in preamble

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:40 am

Dear Ismaili103,
You wrote," I am live in Karachi and what you think we are afraid to say truth----------- I had debate in past with mullahs about 3 caliphs------ I am still alive-----" 103, I want you to live long life, I do not intend any harm to you or any Ismaili. Just tell me honestly, Did you tell those mullahs that HI is Allah? Did you tell them that Aga khan is God?
Did you tell them that you do not believe in Quran? Please be honest.
You wrote," these Christians left the rope of Imamat 3000 years ago." 103, please note 3000 years back there was no Chirstianity. I think you should have built in calculator in your computor. Please do not jump to comment on every post without thinking, and research. Do your home work before posting, take your time. I am still arround here for service if I am not blocked. You and aghakhani keep asking others to reseach on your behalf.
In one of your other post, you asked me," our libraries were burnt and how come you know that Ali Allah was not in those books." Dear, when our Dais and scholars wrote those books during Fatimid caliphat the books were copied and sent out to other centers like Yemen, Syria, North Africa and other places where Ismailis live at that time.
After down fall of Fatimid Musta'lian, they still hold Yemen and books were in safe hands. After ward that treasure moved to India and Bohra Dai ul Mutaliq is in possession
of many books and manuscripts and so HI does. Main book on jurisprudence was saved written by Qadi Noaman named DU'AM UL ISLAM nd others like Uoyunul akhbaar by Dai Idrees. Read Du'am ul Islam the main source on Ismailism approved by Imam MUIZ, YOU WILL NOT FIND ANY SENTENCE SUGGESTS IMAM IS GOD. On the contrary QADI Noaman wrote, Pray 5 times salat, keep fasting in the month of Ramazan, go on Hajj by quoting Imam Baqir and Imam Ja'far Sadiq. You can find Translation of Du'am in ITREB library, Karachi.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:21 am

ismaili103 wrote:1) there is one firman of Imam Sultan Mohd Shah where its mentioned.
2) there are Ginans where you can find jesus is god( indirectly written )
3) there is Hadees of Prophet.

In his Memoirs MSMS says:

"Roumi and Hafiz, the great Persian poets, have told us, each in his different way, that some men are born with such natural spiritual capacities and possibilities of development that they have direct experience of that great love, that all-embracing, all-consuming love, which direct contact with reality gives to the human soul. Hafiz indeed has said that men like Jesus Christ and Muslim mystics like Mansour and Bayezid and others have possessed that spiritual power of the greater love; that any of us, if the Holy Spirit (*) ever present grants us that enlightenment, can, being thus blessed, have the power which Christ had, but that to the overwhelming majority of men this greater love is not a practical possibility."

In his Usul-e-din Farman, MSMS said that Jesus achived Fanna Fi Allah. He became one with God.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 6:48 am

tret wrote:So, Eternal Imam [Divine Intellect] is not the Supreme God/The Transcendent One, who is beyond comprehension and understanding of our human intellect.

According to mystical philosophy, although God is beyond our normal comprehension and understanding, he is not beyond supernormal capacities that one cultivates through Ibadat. There is a faculty through which one may know the Transacendant God. This faculty is always fully developed in the Imams and hence they are the Mazhar of the Transcendant God.

Following is an excerpt of an article written by Paul Brunton a reknowned person in the field of mysticism, that explains the way an individual may cultivate the capacity to know God through Ibadat. In Sufism is is called knowldge of God through Marifah.

"If reality exists anywhere it must exist in an irreducible infinitude. But such a character places it beyond ordinary finite perceptions. A tran-scendental insight is therefore needful to bring man into relation with it. When the Supreme Reality is declared to be unknowable and unthinkable, we mean that it is unknowable only to physical sense-perception and unthinkable only by intellectual consciousness. Although the Absolute is beyond man's ordinary means of comprehension it is not beyond his extraordinary means. For there is in man a faculty which he may unfold that is higher than his ordinary means of comprehension: it is the faculty of transcendental insight, which can enable him to know and to experience this Reality. The quest consummates itself in the philosophic experience, which is this unbroken enduring insight into the inner reality."

Post by **Admin** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:23 am

mazhar wrote:On the contrary QADI Noaman wrote, Pray 5 times salat, keep fasting in the month of Ramazan, go on Hajj by quoting Imam Baqir and Imam Ja'far Sadiq. You can find Translation of Du'am in ITREB library, Karachi.

We Ismailis are the Ibn'ul Wakht. We follow the instructions of the Imam of the Time who has the full authority to change any Farmans of the past Imams and also his own. Please read the Ismaili Constitution and the Rules and Regulations signed by our Imam properly, the provisions therein say that a subsequent Farman can change the previous Farman. We do not live in Fatimid times.

But partly you are right, the Imam also does make Farmans restricted to one person or a group of persons.

One person asked Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah why ismailis were not performing the Ramadan fast and the 5 Namaz (which you are preaching following Qadi Numan).

Mowla asked him, what do you think we should do? He replied I think we should follow the other Muslims and do the Fast of Ramazan and the 5 Namaz a day.

Mowla made a Farman immediately for him. He told that wise person, "I make it compulsory upon you to recite 5 namaz a day and do all the fast of Ramadan".

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:35 am

I do not intend any harm to you or any Ismaili. Just tell me honestly, Did you tell those mullahs that HI is Allah? Did you tell them that Aga khan is God?

I do not know what Shinan answered those Mullah but off course I have a debate with 6 Sunny Mullas came my house to invite me to join in Sunnism, after brief debate one of them asked me what you consider your AGAKHAN? looking big picture hanging in a sitting hall!! I answered him, he is every thing for me! he replied many Agakhanis believes that he is Allah! what you think? I said them they are right and I think what others Ismailis think means he is Allah for me.
No need to tell but our debate was ended over there and they left. but the situation in Pakistan may be different they may hurt you or kill you because the Mullahs are more powerful there in comparison of state.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:59 am

if you give derogatory statements again, in my view you are insane, because it means you do not care for your Ismaili brothers and sisters.

I never give any derogatory statements , never I did before in past whatever I write has always proof behind it and this is what I am doing since I joined in this forum, i.e. to tell the hidden stories which other Muslims has intentionally hidden from us, now back to the 3 caliphs issues yes! they tried to kill prophet, not one time but many times for proof read Shia history books! BTW: "Kisi ke kahne se koi pagal nahi ho jate"

tret · Post by **tret** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:58 am

kmaherali wrote: Please explain the difference from a practical point of view

First, we need to define what Mazhar means. Please let us know your understanding of Mazhar.

wrote: The document says:
- Absolute transendance of God
- Imam as a Mazhar of God

From the two times it implies that the Imam is the Mazhar of the Transendant God - Mazhar -i-Dhat-i-illahi.

This is the exact quote:

(i) The concept of God:

The absolute transcendence of God to be emphasised,
and the Ismaili belief in God to be expounded in
association with the general stress on the transcendence
of God in the Koran, as exemplified particularly in the
Surat-u-Ikhlas.

So, tell me, according to your assertion of "Imam is God", is it aligned with the guidance of MHI that God to be understood in accordance to Sura-Ikhlas? Do you know the inner meaning of Surah-Ikhlas, that you recite 3 times aday?

kmaherali wrote: MSMS has articulated the understanding of tawhid as monorelaity. That is the concept that fits into the present understanding and intellectual climate. We should adhere to it rather than looking backwards

Please explain your understanding of mono-reality, that MSMS explained and how it's different than the one from Fatimid era? It certainly, isn't "Imam is Allah", the mono-reality that Imam SMS explains.

kmaherali wrote: As I expalined that there were two things the Transcendance of God and the Mazhar of God which equates to mazhar of the Essence.
I find reference in the current Imam's statement which supersedes the references in the sub-continent if they contradict. I have provided two farmans earlier in this thread, please refer to them. They are printed farmans made in India.

Please provide Farmaan of current MHI that implies Imam is Allah, as Admin stated that we are ibn-ul-waqt.

kmaherali wrote: As I have explained before, I was a student at the IIS. MHI mentioned this to a group of scholars at a meeting. One of the scholars who was present related it to us.

So, we should take your words on that.

kmaherali wrote: I Pointed out to you that in his Diwan Mowlana mentions the word infidelity. Why would he have used the word if he was not referrring to the Essence? In my opinion he used it because he was in fact commiting shirk according to the general understanding.

Please, first explain how usage of "infidelity" is related in this context. Then, please provide exact reference in the the Divan [page#, chapter#, verse#]

wrote: According to mystical philosophy, although God is beyond our normal comprehension and understanding, he is not beyond supernormal capacities that one cultivates through Ibadat. There is a faculty through which one may know the Transcendent God. This faculty is always fully developed in the Imams and hence they are the Mazhar of the Transcendent God.

The only way an individual soul realizes God[Lahut] is through His Hujjat[Nasut]. I am not advocating that one can never understand God, but I am suggesting it can only be realized through His Hujjat on this physical realm, which is the Imam. Even then, that realization is only experience, which one can not -- even if one tries to accurately -- explain in human language. The only way to explain [or try to explain] is through parables and Ramz. So, when we say Imam is Allah, or Allah is noor; these statements are totally false, because no matter how accurately we try to describe God/The Transcendence, is our mind's fabrication which is created by us, like us and turned away from The exalted. That's the true Taw'id, to understand Him as unconditional absoluteness and reality without associating anything to Him.

tret · Post by **tret** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:04 pm

ismaili103 wrote: Tret bro,

You wrote Eternal Imam is Universal Intellect( AQL E QUL ).

Tret did you dont know Aql e qul is indeed Allah or Imam, who manifest as an Zahir Imam for our guidance.

I don't believe Universal Intellect [Aql-e-Kul] is the Transcendent One, the Supreme God. Aql-e-Kul is the cause of all causes & effects. We can not associate The Supreme God to be the cause of other causes or effects.

tret · Post by **tret** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:18 pm

fayaz006 wrote: Tret i agree that one must perform and understand the zahiri aspects of the faith before being able to comprehend the Batini. The point I am making is that Fatimid world view did not develop in a vacuum. It evolved from Imam Wafi Ahmad advocating that he was spreading Imamat for The Mahdi or the hidden Imam, to Imam Mohammad al Mahdi claiming that he was the Mahdi. It was also developed in a time of severe persecution of the Ismailis.

My suggestion is that maybe in the Ginans, the worldview of Supreme God to his Command to Divine Intellect, has evolved as well. Now what that world view is, would hard for any one this forum to articulate. I think that would require searching on your part.

Dear Fayaz,

What's really your point here? I'd like to make it clear. Are you saying that the Doctrine of Ismaili that pioneered during the Fatimid and Alamut are based on the teachings of Imam who were advocating to spread Imamate for the hidden Imam of isna ashria? Do you have any evidence to back up your claim? I strongly disagree with this assertion. I agree that the Doctrine of Ismaili crystallized over time; however, that is the essence of our faith. We can not simply re-formulate the essence of the faith.

I am not expert in Ginanc text, maybe you are. Please, explain how the concept of The transcendent/The Command/The Intellect is different in Ginanc text than the one from Classical Ismaili Doctrine?

So, are you now suggesting that there are contradictions between ginanic literature and the Doctrine of classical Ismaili? I'd like to beg to differ on that. Simply because rationally, the ginans are composed by our Pirs/Hujjats and Dais. And Pirs/Hujjat and Dais receives their knowledge of religion from the Imam of the Time. The teaching of the Imams in its essence is always ONE, the Ramz/way of preaching may differ, but in essence the teachings of all the Imams [in fact all the Prophets] is always ONE and shall never change. It's simply how we practice and exercise changes according to time and space.

I am not sure where are you located, but if you can, I'd suggest you to visit the newly opened Ismaili Centre and the Museum in Toronto, and try and contemplate on the symbolisms and esoteric concepts that are captured in the buildings in physical form, which are all the classical Ismaili Doctrines and beliefs.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:58 pm

agakhani wrote:
I do not know what Shinan answered those Mullah but off course I have a debate with 6 Sunny Mullas came my house to invite me to join in Sunnism, after brief debate one of them asked me what you consider your AGAKHAN? looking big picture hanging in a sitting hall!! I answered him, he is every thing for me! he replied many Agakhanis believes that he is Allah! what you think? I said them they are right and I think what others Ismailis think means he is Allah for me.
No need to tell but our debate was ended over there and they left. but the situation in Pakistan may be different they may hurt you or kill you because the Mullahs are more powerful there in comparison of state.

Brother if you serch "Allah Guides who he wills" in Quran serch you will find at least 20 Ayas with this phrase. Mullas realized that you have your Allah and they left without wasting time.

You are extremely fortunate that Sunni mosque has 6 Mullas who can spare time to visit you and debate you.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:46 pm

Dear kmaherali, With ref. to your post," Pirs, Dais, and Hujjats made the ta'wil and tafsir according to the requirement of their time. The ta' wil / tafsir of the present Imam supercedes the past." So in Fatimid period Imam was not Allah, now He is! What a great leap according to you. Usul e din always remain the same, changes only possible in fru'at e din according to time. In ginanic literature Hari is replaced by Ali. so Naklanki awtar become Ali. ( kal ma Vishnu Imam ).This is how Pir Sadruddin explained to Hindus of his time. That is how
reincarnation changed to essence of noor, by applying 24/35.
In your other post," The Imam also told a group of scholars that He is mazhar e zaat e illahi." Km, if you remember, in one of my post I asked you a question; Mazhar of who, obvioulsy that is Allah. Now here arises question of subject and object, both are different entities. Let me quote an example, I do not know if you are aware of Datta ganj bukhsh of Lahore in Pakistan. He is considered famous sufi. On the main gate the following verses are inscribed.
GANJ BUKHSH FAIZ E ALAM MAZHAR E NOOR E KHUDA
NAKASAAN RA PIR E KAMIL KAMLAAN RA RAHNUMA
Km, tell me can you equate Datta Ganj Bukhsh Hajweeri to Allah because the wordings are mazhar e noor e khuda?
Abbasi caliphs, some central Asian muslim rulers and Mugul emperors of India called them self ZILL E ILLAHI, does that meant zill e Illahi is Allah. I agree with Tret on this subject. Let me give a funny example. My name is Mazhar Khan, in other words I am mazhar of khan, if i say khan is Aga khan. Can you accept me as mazhar of Aga khan.
Obviously your reply will be no, so is mine.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:15 pm

To Administration, With ref. to your posting," We Ismailis are ibnul waqt. We follow the instrutions of the Imam of the time who has full aythority."
Dear Sir, I agree with you. Please read my postings that is what I have been saying from begining. Obey Farman and hidayat of the Imam of the time.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:20 pm

To ZZNoor,
Meri hi Billi aour Mujse hi myaw?

A new,mosque opened in my nebourhood last year so they decided to convert as many Muslims in Sunism so they visited my home.

when I opened my door at that time I just wore shorts and I didn"t have tshirts or any thing so first hesitate to enter in my home but they did any way.

I think that time was very unfortunate time for me because they came during my nape time that is why I do not have any thing on top also I do not want to hear anY garbadge from them.
I have a Sunny negbor one day I was lawn moving and she passed in Burka, I told her
Salam walekum but she hid her eyes and didn"t answer my salam, this surprise me so I looked at me at that time I didnlt wear shirt because I was working in backyard that is why she hid her face and didnlt answer my salam.
I do not want this kind religion.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:19 pm

ZZnoor,
just only 20 ayas? That is nothing! Don"t forget there are 29 ayas on imamat and more then 300 ayas on H. Ali. in Quran !

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:22 pm

agakhani wrote:ZZnoor,
just only 20 ayas? That is nothing! Don"t forget there are 29 ayas on imamat and more then 300 ayas on H. Ali. in Quran !

Pm me all 29 Ayas and 300 Ayas on Hz Ali
We will discuss them Inshah Allah

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:40 pm

Agakhani wrote

I have a Sunny negbor one day I was lawn moving and she passed in Burka, I told her Salam walekum but she hid her eyes and didn"t answer my salam, this surprise me so I looked at me at that time I didnlt wear shirt because I was working in backyard that is why she hid her face and didnlt answer my salam.
I do not want this kind religion.

It's not "Salam walekum" it is As-Salaam o Aleykum, Answer would be
walekum Salaam

Does she wear Burkha in backyard?
Islam permits choices for momeena. She can wear Burkha and hide her body as ordered to prophet's wives or cover head as per quran Ayat and hadith or she can ignore covering at all. Nobody forces her.
Ask her husband if he forces her to wear burkha. Tell me do all women coming to your nearby mosque wear Burkha?

By rejecting Salat, swam and Hajj you have already rejected mainstream Islam anyway.

Salaam brother

Post by **Admin** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:58 pm

What one consider "main stream" may just be the voice of the majority but majority can have a disease and that does not mean those who do not have the disease have to get it.

Read the book named "Rhinoceros" by Eugène Ionesco, written in 1959. You will learn something which may change your way of looking at what is really Islam and what is anti-Islam.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:13 pm

To mazhar:Ya Ali Madad.

I am still awaiting 3 questions asked on preamble n 4 question asked from 1975 conference.
you have not answered even one from it
We ismailis believe n follow our Imam,

I just cannot believe billion fools circling a stone for some formless entity.
It look like mockery of human intellect n self respect.

Even raising the level of prophet mohammed as companion of the High
and not as equal partner is not shirk. Allah has said all beautiful name belong to him, so joining one of his name of Ali as aliallah( as one entity n not two parners) is not shirk.

I hear many qawallis of sunni sufi ,thet seek blessing form prophet more than allah is their singing.I do not see anything wrong it that.

being sufi they need visibility and no POEMS OR PAINTING can be done on any 'formless beyond imagination/comprehension.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:18 am

To Aghakhani
With ref. to your posting,"What Shinan answered to those mullah but
of course I have debate with 6 sunni mullas come to my house-------"
For this above posting I just say, khasiyani billi khamba nochey.
You even do not know how to say, ASSALAMU ALAIKUM.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 1:59 am

tret wrote:First, we need to define what Mazhar means. Please let us know your understanding of Mazhar..

Mazhar is the locus of manifestation.

tret wrote: This is the exact quote:

(i) The concept of God:

The absolute transcendence of God to be emphasised,
and the Ismaili belief in God to be expounded in
association with the general stress on the transcendence
of God in the Koran, as exemplified particularly in the
Surat-u-Ikhlas.

So, tell me, according to your assertion of "Imam is God", is it aligned with the guidance of MHI that God to be understood in accordance to Sura-Ikhlas? Do you know the inner meaning of Surah-Ikhlas, that you recite 3 times aday?..

Thank you for providing the exact Quote. The quote says that Allah is transcendant (according to the ordinary understanding, but not according to extra ordinary understanding). If you combine this understanding of God with the statement on the Mazhar of God in the same document, you get the Imam is the mazhar of the Transcendant God. Hence he is the Mazhar of the Essence.

tret wrote: Please explain your understanding of mono-reality, that MSMS explained and how it's different than the one from Fatimid era? It certainly, isn't "Imam is Allah", the mono-reality that Imam SMS explains...

Irrespective of whether it is the same or different we need to adhere to the latest exposition which is consistent with the current intellectual climate.

In the same chapter the Imam says:

"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout."

I hope the above statement is self explanatory about the status of Ali.

tret wrote:
kmaherali wrote: As I expalined that there were two things the Transcendance of God and the Mazhar of God which equates to mazhar of the Essence.
I find reference in the current Imam's statement which supersedes the references in the sub-continent if they contradict. I have provided two farmans earlier in this thread, please refer to them. They are printed farmans made in India.
Please provide Farmaan of current MHI that implies Imam is Allah, as Admin stated that we are ibn-ul-waqt.

Have you read what I said?

tret wrote: So, we should take your words on that..

So you think I am a lier!

tret wrote: Please, first explain how usage of "infidelity" is related in this context. Then, please provide exact reference in the the Divan [page#, chapter#, verse#].

Mowlana has used the word infidelty to convey a message that he is not following the norm of the time, i.e, he was considering Shams as God the Transendant! I have quoted the verses of the Diwan in this thread. Please go through the thread.

tret wrote: So, when we say Imam is Allah, or Allah is noor; these statements are totally false, because no matter how accurately we try to describe God/The Transcendence, is our mind's fabrication which is created by us, like us and turned away from The exalted. That's the true Taw'id, to understand Him as unconditional absoluteness and reality without associating anything to Him.

Nobody is trying to describe Divine Transcendance which is of course undescribable. But we can certainly describe people who have attained Fanna fi Allah. The Imams would of course be in this category otherwise they would not be able to guide others to that state!

tret · Post by **tret** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 2:19 am

kmaherali wrote: Mazhar is the locus of manifestation.

Then how do you come to conclusion that Imam is Allah/The Transcendent?

(i) The concept of God:

The absolute transcendence of God to be emphasised,
and the Ismaili belief in God to be expounded in
association with the general stress on the transcendence
of God in the Koran, as exemplified particularly in the
Surat-u-Ikhlas.

Please do not try to avoid the question I asked.

- Is your assetion of "Imam is Allah", in-line with MHI's guidance according to Surah-khlas???
- Do you understand the meaning of Surah-Ikhlas?

kmaherali wrote: The quote says that Allah is transcendant (according to the ordinary understanding, but not according to extra ordinary understanding).

Please indicate where it says [or even implies] that it's according to ordinary people?

kmaherali wrote: Irrespective of whether it is the same or different we need to adhere to the latest exposition which is consistent with the current intellectual climate.

In the same chapter the Imam says:

"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout."

I hope the above statement is self explanatory about the status of Ali.

kmaherali - I asked you where does the Farmaan of MSMS implies that Imam is Allah, and you are saying totally something else. I don't see any relevance of this Farmaan in the context of our discussion. I asked you how mono-reality implies that Imam is Allah, and you are trying to prove the status of Imam Ali. Don't avoid the question.

kmaherali wrote: Have you read what I said?

Please put it here. I can't find'em!

kmaherali wrote: So you think I am a lier!

I never said that! I simply implied to ask for any evidence, besides your words.

kmaherali wrote: Mowlana has used the word infidelty to convey a message that he is not following the norm of the time, i.e, he was considering Shams as God the Transendant! I have quoted the verses of the Diwan in this thread. Please go through the thread.

Please put the verse here. I can't find it. These threads grow so quickly, we lose track of the replies. Please once more, post it here, with vers#, page#, chapter#, whether it's from Divan-e-Shams or Masnavi...

kmaherali wrote: Nobody is trying to describe Divine Transcendance which is of course undescribable. But we can certainly describe people who have attained Fanna fi Allah. The Imams would of course be in this category otherwise they would not be able to guide others to that state!

Well, as soon as you say Imam is Allah, this is describing. We know who the Imam is.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:51 am

ismaili103 wrote:You can also understand it in that way viz.

Ali has JALALI ATTRIBUTES ( Rab, Rehman etc )
And
Muhammad has JAMALI ( Khaliq, Rahim( rehmat ul aalamin)

But at the end both are ONE.

ALI NABI YAK KHUDA
HAQ SHANASI DAF-E-BALA

According to my opinion, the Imam of the time is the ShahPir, that is he is the functioning Mazhar of the Essence and is recognised as such. In that capacity he also functions as the Mazhar of the Divine Intellect (God of attributes- jalali and jamali). However at times this role is delegated to another person of the Ahl al-bayt. This was the case for the Prophet who was the Pir. From that perspective both Ali and Muhammad are the Mazhars of the Divine Intellect, hence one. From an Ismaili perspective though the Prophet was the murid of Hazarat Ali.

Ali being the functioning mazhar of the Essence is the object of worship, whereas the Prophet being the functioning mazhar of the Divine Intellect is the Pir who guides a murid towards the Imam as per Ginanic verse:

ejee nabee mahamad bujo bhaai, to tame paamo imaam
musharak man to kaafar kaheeye, moman deel kuraan..illaahee..2

Brothers, know Prophet Muhammed, then you will attain the Imaam. Only a kaafir (infidel) has polytheistic tendencies in his/her mind(heart). But a momin's heart is enlightened by Holy Qur'aan.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 4:51 am

ismaili103 wrote:You can also understand it in that way viz.

Ali has JALALI ATTRIBUTES ( Rab, Rehman etc )
And
Muhammad has JAMALI ( Khaliq, Rahim( rehmat ul aalamin)

But at the end both are ONE.

ALI NABI YAK KHUDA
HAQ SHANASI DAF-E-BALA

According to my opinion, the Imam of the time is the ShahPir, that is he is the functioning Mazhar of the Essence and is recognised as such. In that capacity he also functions as the Mazhar of the Divine Intellect (God of attributes- jalali and jamali). However at times this role is delegated to another person of the Ahl al-bayt. This was the case for the Prophet who was the Pir. From that perspective both Ali and Muhammad are the Mazhars of the Divine Intellect, hence one. From an Ismaili perspective though the Prophet was the murid of Hazarat Ali.

Ali being the functioning mazhar of the Essence is the object of worship, whereas the Prophet being the functioning mazhar of the Divine Intellect is the Pir who guides a murid towards the Imam as per Ginanic verse:

ejee nabee mahamad bujo bhaai, to tame paamo imaam
musharak man to kaafar kaheeye, moman deel kuraan..illaahee..2

Brothers, know Prophet Muhammed, then you will attain the Imaam. Only a kaafir (infidel) has polytheistic tendencies in his/her mind(heart). But a momin's heart is enlightened by Holy Qur'aan.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 6:08 am

mazhar wrote:So in Fatimid period Imam was not Allah, now He is!.

The Essence of Imam is that he is the Mazhar of the Essence. Now in some circumstances he can call himself the interpretor of the faith and at times he can call himself the wasi and at times God as per MSMS. It depends upon circumstances. You are right, the essence does not change.

mazhar wrote: GANJ BUKHSH FAIZ E ALAM MAZHAR E NOOR E KHUDA
NAKASAAN RA PIR E KAMIL KAMLAAN RA RAHNUMA
Km, tell me can you equate Datta Ganj Bukhsh Hajweeri to Allah because the wordings are mazhar e noor e khuda?
Abbasi caliphs, some central Asian muslim rulers and Mugul emperors of India called them self ZILL E ILLAHI, does that meant zill e Illahi is Allah..

I don't understand the language so please provide me with the translation. In principle you can have more than one person who has become Fanna and hence can be called the Mazhar of the Essence.

mazhar wrote: I agree with Tret on this subject. Let me give a funny example. My name is Mazhar Khan, in other words I am mazhar of khan, if i say khan is Aga khan. Can you accept me as mazhar of Aga khan.
Obviously your reply will be no, so is mine.

Do you mean to say that in the Paris document that is the meaning of Mazhar?

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 9:59 am

Pm me all 29 Ayas and 300 Ayas on Hz Ali
We will discuss them Inshah Allah

First of all I do not waste time for those peoples who left Ismailism a true path (Shiratan Mustakim) and you are one of them, so I will not wast time for you but here is a suggestion for you! why don't you ask your mentor about this? if you do not find answer there then go and search it in web I am sure you will find those 29 ayas and if you still not find in web then read my older post I think I have posted those 29 quranic ayas, in which Allah has mentioned about imamat in 29 different ayas .

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 10:10 am

It's not "Salam walekum" it is As-Salaam o Aleykum, Answer would be
walekum Salaam

ZZNoor & Mazhar,
That does not mean I do not know the correct wording of Islamic salam! but let me ask you this are you pronouncing Quranic ayas in 100% correct tone and 100% correctly? I bet you don't!!
Don't say you are pronouncing it correctly! because not even Arabic speaking Muslims can do that! they are also pronouncing it differently even though their mother tongue is Arabic. so before give advise or point finger to others apne girebans me bhi dekh liya kare!

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:07 am

tret wrote:
ismaili103 wrote: Tret bro,

You wrote Eternal Imam is Universal Intellect( AQL E QUL ).

Tret did you dont know Aql e qul is indeed Allah or Imam, who manifest as an Zahir Imam for our guidance.
I don't believe Universal Intellect [Aql-e-Kul] is the Transcendent One, the Supreme God. Aql-e-Kul is the cause of all causes & effects. We can not associate The Supreme God to be the cause of other causes or effects.

Tret,

Isn't it shirk...

According to you the Creator is not Transcendent one. Means there is the creator of the creator who is beyond comprehension which means 1 billion muslims attempting shirk because according to them Aql e qul is Allah( who is creator etc). According to them God is Indeed Transcendent and God is the cause of all the causes.

Tret if you are trying to say that we should not bound God in some 99 attributed then i'm agree with you.

tret · Post by **tret** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:31 pm

ismaili103 wrote: Tret,

Isn't it shirk... icon_rolleyes.gif

According to you the Creator is not Transcendent one. Means there is the creator of the creator who is beyond comprehension which means 1 billion muslims attempting shirk because according to them Aql e qul is Allah( who is creator etc). According to them God is Indeed Transcendent and God is the cause of all the causes.

Tret if you are trying to say that we should not bound God in some 99 attributed then i'm agree with you.

This is not shirk at all! In fact, this is the true Taw'hid and ISmailis understand the Transcendent Supreme God as Absolute reality beyond comprehension in His Oneness, by double negating it.

To say Supreme God is the cause of something [of cause of all causes and effects], we in fact relate something [in this case causes & effects] to Supreme God, that is considered shirk. Because according to Surah Ikhlas, it says that The Supreme God has not begotten. This begotten or begot not only means in the sense of physical [biological son/father], but also means in the metaphysical sense of creator/creation. i.e. Universal Soul is the creator of all individual soul. So, we can say individual souls are children of Universal Soul. Now, that would be shirk to consider Universal Soul [or Universal Intellect] as Supreme God. This is the essence of Surah-ikhlas. Allah is of course every involved in the creation, which is a constant act and perpetual as MSMS said, but the actual act of creation is done through an agent. We see the trace of God's Essence in the creation itself.

tret · Post by **tret** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 12:56 pm

kmaherali wrote: According to my opinion, the Imam of the time is the ShahPir, that is he is the functioning Mazhar of the Essence and is recognised as such. In that capacity he also functions as the Mazhar of the Divine Intellect (God of attributes- jalali and jamali). However at times this role is delegated to another person of the Ahl al-bayt. This was the case for the Prophet who was the Pir. From that perspective both Ali and Muhammad are the Mazhars of the Divine Intellect, hence one.

Few corrections, kmaherali -

Imam of the Time is not always[/b] SharPir [Imama/Hujjat]. Our current MHI is rightfully is both Imam/Hujjat [SharPir]. Refer to the Doctrine of Qy'amat for more details as why the role/offices of Hujjatship is combined with the one of Imamate with our beloved and exalted 49th Imam. Historically, Imam of the Time has had always His [Supreme ]Hujjat <aka Pir>. It's not "at time", but it has always been that way. As I said, our current Imam assumes both roles/offices. refer to Doctrine of Qy'amat for details.

Second, Supreme Hujjat[aka Pir] can be from non-Ahl-e-Bayte [However, it can very well be]. It's the sole prerogative of the Imam of the time to appoint who should be the Supreme Hujjat, from amongst the 12 Hujjat of the Day. Or more particularly from the 4 Hujjat of the proximity.

Third, our Prophet's role wasn't excursively as Pir [Hujjat]; however, He could have been functioning as such. Prophet Mohammad is the last Natiq [enunciator] and Mauwla Ali was Prophet's Wasi [or Asas], during the life time of the Prophet. As Prophet Mohammad said Ali is the same as Aron was to Musa. After Prophet Mohammad, Mauwla Ali became the First Manifest Imam, which is equal to the rank of Natiq, during the cycle of Nabuwat.

kmaherali wrote: From an Ismaili perspective though the Prophet was the murid of Hazarat Ali.

Please don't say "From Ismaili perspective". If it's your opinion, that's fine. But don't imply something as Ismaili belief without evidence and proof. The Prophet was not murid of the Hazrat Ali. As I said before, Prophet Mohammad was the last Natiq and Mawla Ali was his Wasi, during his lifetime, but after cycle of Nabuwat, Mauwla Ali as the first Manifest Imam assumes the same rank as Natiq during the cycle of Nabuwat. This rank of Natiq is in fact the office of Imamate which is ever present and ever existence.

kmaherali wrote: Ali being the functioning mazhar of the Essence is the object of worship, whereas the Prophet being the functioning mazhar of the Divine Intellect is the Pir who guides a murid towards the Imam as per Ginanic verse:

ejee nabee mahamad bujo bhaai, to tame paamo imaam
musharak man to kaafar kaheeye, moman deel kuraan..illaahee..2

Brothers, know Prophet Muhammed, then you will attain the Imaam. Only a kaafir (infidel) has polytheistic tendencies in his/her mind(heart). But a momin's heart is enlightened by Holy Qur'aan.

The word "Object" has physical implication, and anything physical referenced to the Supreme God is anthropomorphism. It would be much better for you not to use "Object of worship". It's just my opinion. Imam is the intercessor through which we attain the knowledge of Taw'id.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Fri Feb 06, 2015 3:20 pm

To Nuseri,
With ref. to your current post of Feb5,2015, I just say you have to apologize for your remarks saying, those Ismailis who say Aliyullah are monkeys, where these words exist in our Du'a and Kalima. You first apologize then we go forward in discussions. Cool mindedly read my postings, I have already replied your questions. Rather you have not replied my 5 questions because you are confused. You have got only one theme. I clearly told you, lakum dina kum wa liya din.