first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

[kmaherali]

Kmaherali - so if MHI is God of everyone, but others (non ismailies) don't recognize him; then please let us know how is it possible to realize the Divine and become one with IT (according to you)? Is it possible to realize something fully without recognizing it? I am not sure even if it makes sense at all?

Let me clarify. You saId earlier to my respond that even people from other faith can realize the truth, but still not considered ismailies. So please let us know, if according to you MHI is god to everyone including non ismailies, then people like hafiz, rumi and other great sages have they realized that the Imam was their God? If your claim is true, then whoever from other faiths be it sunni asna ahshiria, jew christian hindu realizes the truth must recognize that Imam of the time is their God. There's something that doesn't add up intellectually. I hope you are using your intellect.

When a person becomes a Self Realized One, he becomes the Ocean. To me any Self Realized person is God to everyone as MHI is. So one need not recognise MHI as such but if one can recognize another Master who is self realized he can achieve his aim through him.

[tret]

Kmaherali - so if MHI is God of everyone, but others (non ismailies) don't recognize him; then please let us know how is it possible to realize the Divine and become one with IT (according to you)? Is it possible to realize something fully without recognizing it? I am not sure even if it makes sense at all?

Let me clarify. You saId earlier to my respond that even people from other faith can realize the truth, but still not considered ismailies. So please let us know, if according to you MHI is god to everyone including non ismailies, then people like hafiz, rumi and other great sages have they realized that the Imam was their God? If your claim is true, then whoever from other faiths be it sunni asna ahshiria, jew christian hindu realizes the truth must recognize that Imam of the time is their God. There's something that doesn't add up intellectually. I hope you are using your intellect.

When a person becomes a Self Realized One, he becomes the Ocean. To me any Self Realized person is God to everyone as MHI is. So one need not recognise MHI as such but if one can recognize another Master who is self realized he can achieve his aim through him.

So you don't really need to worship MHI you can find someone else who's self realized and worship him?

I am sorry to tell you, but ideology is faaar from ismailis, not at least that I know of. You are most welcome to worship whoever (or whatever) you choose, but it's important that folks should realize that you are not preaching ismaili doctrine and belief, but only your own opinion and belief. And that should be fair.

[kmaherali]

So you don't really need to worship MHI you can find someone else who's self realized and worship him?

I am sorry to tell you, but ideology is faaar from ismailis, not at least that I know of. You are most welcome to worship whoever (or whatever) you choose, but it's important that folks should realize that you are not preaching ismaili doctrine and belief, but only your own opinion and belief. And that should be fair.

For an Ismaili it would be silly to abondon a permanent Murshid for any other Master.

However for non-Ismailis, since the Imam is not available to all, then, they do not have any other option but to go to the Master whom they recognise.

[tret]

"There is no one greater than Myself. If you think of God, then it is Myself. If you think of Pir, then too it is Me. If you think about Imam, then too it is Me. And your beloved Master is also Me. There is no one except Myself" ( Wadi Jamaat Khaana March 16, 1902)

It is essential to realize when the Imam is speaking as the Eternal Imam and when speaking as Manifest Imam.

Those who consider Imam in his physical form and body say Imam is God. When Imam mentions phrases as such, He is speaking as The Eternal Imam. I think people should realize that or else then won't be no better than idol worshipper.

[tret]

So you don't really need to worship MHI you can find someone else who's self realized and worship him?

I am sorry to tell you, but ideology is faaar from ismailis, not at least that I know of. You are most welcome to worship whoever (or whatever) you choose, but it's important that folks should realize that you are not preaching ismaili doctrine and belief, but only your own opinion and belief. And that should be fair.

For an Ismaili it would be silly to abondon a permanent Murshid for any other Master.

However for non-Ismailis, since the Imam is not available to all, then, they do not have any other option but to go to the Master whom they recognise.

For an ismaili, it would be equally silly to consider, other than the Imam-e-Zaman, murshi-e-kamel.

But again tell me: if anyone is self realized, becomes like MHI then why do you make any distinction between MHI and others?

Second, you didn't answer my question earlier. These self realized gods, will they recognize MHI? How many gods are walking around us if we have multitude of self realized people?

These are the things that are not intellectually sound arguments from an ismaili perspective.

You don't have to make things as you go along, just for the sake of disagreeing with me.

[agakhani]

There is no such hadith, please post reference

Read SIRAT-UN-NABI for references

[agakhani]

that it was SMS who in 1954 changed the wordings in our new Du'a from Ali sahi Allah to Aliullah.

Mazhar Imam changing the words from Ali Sahi Allah to Aliullah does not negate the fact the Ali sahi Allah was present in our dua in the past.

Mazhar,
Ok, brother then now please tell us WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THESE TWO WORDS 'ALI SAHI ALLAH" AND "ASLIULLAH"?

[agakhani]

Sorry, Not Asliullah but Aliullah! sorry it was typing mistake above

And why not older Jamats had no problem more than 600 years with that word "Ali Sahi Allah" and now a days many scholars raise the question?

[zznoor]

There is no such hadith, please post reference

Read SIRAT-UN-NABIfor references

Who wrote it?
SIRAT-UN-NABI is not book of Hadith
It is biography by a author. I cannot find it in Hadith book.

[mazhar]

Dear Administration,
Reply to your posting dated Jan19, 2015; Indeed that was Professor Jawad Masqati who wrote Du'a by order of Imam SMS with His instructions. Afterwards Du'a was presented in the forum of presidents of Ismailia Associations for input.In 1954 Imam SMS approved it after changes, then as you mentioned in 1956 Shah Karim introduced new Du'a in African jamaits and He was aware of Aliyullah, that'a why in 1964 Farman of 'Ali is from Allah' He said," YES, FARMAN ON THAT WAS VERY CLEAR FROM MY GRAND FATHER----"
In my humble opinion( please do not mis understand me) the Du'a should have come from the house of Imamat directly so that latter on there should not have been the controversy of Allahuma and Li zikrihi.

[Admin]

The Farman "from my Grandfather" that was "very clear" is documented and says "You are ignorant. It is your ignorance and not that 'Ali Allah' is wrong."

That is what was said by Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah at the 1945 Mission Conference in Dar es Salam.

Alyullah and AliAllah means the same.

Posting edited and fraudulent version of a Farman is not allowed. Inventing Farmans and attributing to the Imam will get your account deleted. Please take note.

[mazhar]

Dear Kmaherali,
Please read my posting addressed to Administration dated Jan19, 2015 in
which I have quoted complete paragraph of Farman containing words 'ALI IS FROM ALLAH'. this is a clear Farman in simple and plain English, but if some one do not want to accept it, that is up to him. We take face value of words. If there is a $100 bill and some one claims, oh but I consider it
$1000 bill, what can I say. At money exchange he will get change for only
$100 and not $1000. Words speak for them selves. I have quoted HI's Farman which I have proof. Now it is up to a person to accepts it or rejects it.

[kmaherali]

Dear Kmaherali,
Please read my posting addressed to Administration dated Jan19, 2015 in
which I have quoted complete paragraph of Farman containing words 'ALI IS FROM ALLAH'. this is a clear Farman in simple and plain English, but if some one do not want to accept it, that is up to him.

So are you then implying that we should consider Ali as equal to us, because we are all from Allah. Then why say it at all. I will rely on my intellect until I see the Farman and the context in which it was made if indeed it was made at all.

[kmaherali]

For an ismaili, it would be equally silly to consider, other than the Imam-e-Zaman, murshi-e-kamel.

Why would it be silly? Has not MSMS said that non-Ismailis have indeed attained Fana Fi Allah and has he not said that those who attain are like him?

So are you implying that since non-Ismailis have very limited access to the Imam, they cannot attain perfection because they are not in contact with the Murshid-e-Kamil?

What about all the contributions that the sufis have made in Islamic civilizations? Should we consider them as invaild since they are not in contact with the Imam?

But again tell me: if anyone is self realized, becomes like MHI then why do you make any distinction between MHI and others? .

MHI himself made the distinction in the Farman that I quoted earlier:
"This practice of individual search for spiritual enlightenment is generally speaking part of the Shia tradition, but it is not exclusively part of the Shia tradition. There are groups historically within Sunni Islam who have also practised, and practise today the individual search for spiritual enlightenment. But in the Ismaili tradition, in the Ismaili Tariqah, this has been there for a long, long, long, time."

Second, you didn't answer my question earlier. These self realized gods, will they recognize MHI? How many gods are walking around us if we have multitude of self realized people?

They need not recognise the Imam. They have attained the status of Fana, so they do not need to recognise him. I don't think Rumi, Mansur or Hafiz did. There can be many at a given time. In our tariqah the Imam discourages people to speak about their success in their search.

These are the things that are not intellectually sound arguments from an ismaili perspective.

You don't have to make things as you go along, just for the sake of disagreeing with me.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I don't make things as I go along. I simply respond to what you say. You make disrespectful comments such as: "You are wrong again" "I hope you are using your intellect" "You are not preaching Ismaili doctrine". With such an intent your intellect gets corrupted. I have no alternative but to respond accordingly.

[mazhar]

Dear kmaherali,
Looks like you are not reading my postings properly. In my three postings I have said that Imam is bearer of Noorullah. He is waslla and through him one seek closer to Allah and get salvation. The 1964 Farman
which I quoted,I have a physical copy of that. IMAM MADE THIS FARMAN AT A RELIGIOUS GATHERING OF ISMAILIA ASSOCIATION, KARACHI. I have given a little back groung in my previous posting to administration.
You can rely on your intellect, but I rely on HI's Intellect. This is a classified Farman. After delivering Farman HI gave special instructions to
missionaries. Being an Ismaili one has to follow Farman.

[ismaili103]

"There is no one greater than Myself. If you think of God, then it is Myself. If you think of Pir, then too it is Me. If you think about Imam, then too it is Me. And your beloved Master is also Me. There is no one except Myself" ( Wadi Jamaat Khaana March 16, 1902)

It is essential to realize when the Imam is speaking as the Eternal Imam and when speaking as Manifest Imam.

Those who consider Imam in his physical form and body say Imam is God. When Imam mentions phrases as such, He is speaking as The Eternal Imam. I think people should realize that or else then won't be no better than idol worshipper.

We Ismailis everyday HEAR in our Dua that Noor Mowlana Shah Karim but only few from us LISTEN it.

The bitter truth is that most of the ismailis cant belive and understand that why Imam is God because they think Imam is Body whose name is Karim.... All the fallacies gone away if they understand that Divine Noor( God ) is indeed Imam.

No doubt Imams body is purest in all of creation( Naklanki ) but we ismailis are Noorparast( Followers of The Divine ) not budparast so we have nothing to di with materialism i.e Imams body... As Admin mentioned that Karim was Also their at the time of Imam Sultan Mohd Shah as well as Hussain was also their at the time of Imam Ali. Body is Just a " ZARIYA ".

[tret]

We Ismailis everyday HEAR in our Dua that Noor Mowlana Shah Karim but only few from us LISTEN it.

It is Farmaan of the Imam to learn and understand the meaning of our Du'a. So if anyone just hear or listen, but do not understand the meaning of the Du'a, still need to awaken.

What about Surah Ikhlas, then? Do you understand the meaning of Surah Ikhlas? Did you also know that MHI emphasized that Jama'at must understand the concept of God/Allah, in accordance with Surah Ikhlas? I mean you do perform Du'a 3 times aday, right?

The bitter truth is that most of the ismailis cant belive and understand that why Imam is God because they think Imam is Body whose name is Karim.... All the fallacies gone away if they understand that Divine Noor( God ) is indeed Imam.

First, I think it's be beneficial for all of us, especially for yourself to try and explain what God is to you? My take is, that God must be understood according to Surah Ikhlas, as MHI guided us. Now, please explain your understanding of God.

I mean there are people who believe that God can manifest in anything that wishes, such as elephant or cow. For them, they see any cow or elephant, could potentially be God manifested. But, that's their belief and we have nothing to do with it.

The sermon of the Imam must be understood with clear mind and in accordance with principals of Islam and teaching of the Qur'an. Otherwise, people will fall left and right from the straight path, saying that Imam is God. I'd suggest you listen to sermon of Mauwla Ali. As I said earlier, people must understand when the Imam is speaking as Eternal Imam that is the Noor of Imamat the Pole of the universe and the Kingdom of God and when the Imam is speaking as Manifest Imam that is the Guide to Humanity, the Master of the Masters. In any cases, the Transcendent is beyond one's comprehension. Anything that you say or think about it, it turned away from HIM and turned back to you. It's fabricated by you and created like you.

No doubt Imams body is purest in all of creation( Naklanki ) but we ismailis are Noorparast( Followers of The Divine ) not budparast so we have nothing to di with materialism i.e Imams body... As Admin mentioned that Karim was Also their at the time of Imam Sultan Mohd Shah as well as Hussain was also their at the time of Imam Ali. Body is Just a " ZARIYA ".

We have nothing to do with materials, but still some folks complain why the pictures of MHI was taken down from Jama'at khanas. And yet people think MHI is God in flesh. Or Incarnation of God. And yet some thinks that we need phisical contact with Imam to be inspired. If these are not signs of materlialist, then what is?

[tret]

Why would it be silly? Has not MSMS said that non-Ismailis have indeed attained Fana Fi Allah and has he not said that those who attain are like him?

Well, on the one hand you consider yourself highly intellectual, and on the other hand, this is how you intepret what the Imam says?
Murshit-e-Kamel [Perfect Master] is only allowed for the Imam-e-Zaman [Exclusively from an Ismaili perspective]. Anyone who attains higher stations, can act as Murshid [NOT Murshid-e-Kamel]. Engrave it in your mind! If you believe otherwise, then it's up to you! For that reason, it would be silly.

So are you implying that since non-Ismailis have very limited access to the Imam, they cannot attain perfection because they are not in contact with the Murshid-e-Kamil?

Well, this is how you imply!
I never said physical contact with the Imam is necessary. Because, people of truth don't think in terms of bodies and materials [like God in Flesh or God incarnates in body]. I gave you examples of other [non-ismailis] such as Rumi, Hafiz etc... who attained perfection.

the interesting thing is that when I stated that Rumi was functioning as Hujjat of Night, you seemed to strongly opposed this; but on the other hand, you equate him [and other people of truth] to the Imam. I am not sure where your position is?

What about all the contributions that the sufis have made in Islamic civilizations? Should we consider them as invalid since they are not in contact with the Imam?

please show me where I implied or said that? Don't mis-interpret things that are not said or implied! Degrades your own credibility.

tret wrote:

But again tell me: if anyone is self realized, becomes like MHI then why do you make any distinction between MHI and others? .

MHI himself made the distinction in the Farman that I quoted earlier:
"This practice of individual search for spiritual enlightenment is generally speaking part of the Shia tradition, but it is not exclusively part of the Shia tradition. There are groups historically within Sunni Islam who have also practised, and practise today the individual search for spiritual enlightenment. But in the Ismaili tradition, in the Ismaili Tariqah, this has been there for a long, long, long, time."

I have no idea what's the connection of MHI's Farmaan to what I have ask. Please re-read what I asked. This is not the answer.

They need not recognise the Imam. They have attained the status of Fana, so they do not need to recognise him. I don't think Rumi, Mansur or Hafiz did. There can be many at a given time. In our tariqah the Imam discourages people to speak about their success in their search.

Okay, so if Hafiz, Hallaj, Rumi achieved that status, and according to you they are the same as the Imam. Then do you consider them God as well? Because according to you Imam is God, Rumi/Hafiz/Hallah are also equal to Imam, therefore they are also God. Is that what you believe?

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. I don't make things as I go along. I simply respond to what you say. You make disrespectful comments such as: "You are wrong again" "I hope you are using your intellect" "You are not preaching Ismaili doctrine". With such an intent your intellect gets corrupted. I have no alternative but to respond accordingly.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and that's faire; so, long as opinions remains opinion. If you utter something and is not backed up by a credible resource, that becomes your belief or opinion. If you backup your opinion, then that becomes fact.

When you say people of truth who achieved higher status is equal to Imam that is your opinion and I'd like that to remain your opinion and belief. I have no problem at all. But, if you say that's ismailis belief, then there's a problem. I hope it's clear to you now.

[Admin]

And yet people think MHI is God in flesh. Or Incarnation of God. And yet some thinks that we need phisical contact with Imam to be inspired. If these are not signs of materlialist, then what is?

No one thin that Hazar Imam is not Noor but flesh. That is your own misconception. As far as the symbols of faith (such as photo), all the religions keep the symbol of their faith in front of their prayer hall as a reminder of their identity. Some people who know nothing of their faith have decided that looking at Mowla's photo is idolatry. Even the Prophet said looking at Ali is Ibadat.

I would say the devil shivers not only hearing the name of the Imam but also looking at his physical symbol in jamatkhanas and people home and heart which is looking at the photo of the Imam of the Time.

[ismaili103]

To tret:
YAM

According to me God is Noor of All the creations, that noor who sustain, maintain all of the creation. That noor which is beyond my imagination, the noor which is undescribable.

I understand surah e ikhlas, I know God is one, neither God has any child nor God is child of any one.
After understanding surah e ikhlas my belive of Imam is God remains same, you know why because surah ikhlas tells us that Allah is alone means that divine Noor is alone and I see Imam as Noor( Noor Mowlana Shah Karim ).

Incarnation and Manifestation are two different words. Imam is not incranation of God but Manifestation of God. To Manifest mean anything to be seen. Quran says Allah is Zahir( manifest one / seen) and also Batin( hidden / unseen). If you belive Imam is Manifestation of God then You should have faith on Imam is Allah.

I have an question for you.

If you want water, what you say I want water or I want glass. ????

[mazhar]

Dear Ismaili103,
Reply to your posting dated Jan19, 2015; you have posted,I quote," Allah word never used in Quran." 103, is this your standard of knowledge!!
In Quran the word Allah is used 2697 times. Now tell me how many times you use word Allah or Allahuma in Du'a. You have quoted Farmans of SMS.Let me quote one Farman of Imam SMS, " In my 72 years of Imamat, I have changed Farmans 72 times."

[agakhani]

Who wrote it?
SIRAT-UN-NABI is not book of Hadith
It is biography by a author. I cannot find it in Hadith book.

Are you still believe in those hadiths!! which are now a days even Sunnies started to believe that some hadiths are made up and paid up Hadiths and some hadiths are not true and unacceptable?

However I can suggest you the name of that Sunny author who wrote in his Sirat book what I wrote above about H. Ali (s.a.), would you like it to know it?

[tret]

According to me God is Noor of All the creations

I have no idea what that means? "noor of all creations"???? please elaborate!

that noor who sustain, maintain all of the creation. That noor which is beyond my imagination, the noor which is undescribable.

Now this make sense.
The Noor that sustains, maintains the creation at each awakening moment is The Noor Imamat, that's the Kingdom of God.
If that Noor is indescribable, then how come you are trying to explain what that Noor is? And even claim that you know [for sure] that is the Imam? You see, this does't add up! When something is indescribable, you don't even dare to explain it. Imam on the other hand, is the Manifestation of the Divine Intellect who gives sustenance to the creation. The Imam-e-Zaman is the Manifestation of that light. You need to study the philosophy of cosmology and creation from an Ismaili perspective.

I understand surah e ikhlas, I know God is one, neither God has any child nor God is child of any one.
After understanding surah e ikhlas my belive of Imam is God remains same, you know why because surah ikhlas tells us that Allah is alone means that divine Noor is alone and I see Imam as Noor( Noor Mowlana Shah Karim ).

If you truly understood surah Ikhlas, you wouldn't say that. It's not the child/father, but the correct term is "Begotten". Do some research on that.

Incarnation and Manifestation are two different words. Imam is not incranation of God but Manifestation of God. To Manifest mean anything to be seen. Quran says Allah is Zahir( manifest one / seen) and also Batin( hidden / unseen). If you belive Imam is Manifestation of God then You should have faith on Imam is Allah.

I agree with you that Manifestation and Incarnation are two different things. But yet, some folks say, Imam is the Incarnation [or 10th incarnation] of veshnu [sorry if i misspell this]. or something along that line.

Imam is incarnation of nothing. Imam is the Manifestation of the Noor Imamat [aka Noor Muhamadan according some other religions].
Manifestaion of something doesn't make it to be that. In other words, if we agree that the Imam is the Manifestation of God, then Manifestation of God is not equal to God Himself. Some folks say, they are one and the same.

If you want water, what you say I want water or I want glass. ????

I don't see no logical connection to the topic of Imam being God or not. But, I will answer your question:

- people can answer in many different ways. You can say I want some water. You can say I want a glass of water. Or you can say I want water. all mean the same thing that you want to drink some water. I don't see any connection. Please elaborate!

[tret]

Some people who know nothing of their faith have decided that looking at Mowla's photo is idolatry.

A wise person leaves the judgement to Mauwla only. Those who you 'think' have no idea of the faith, could possibly know more than you. Who knows? Every body's right in their own mind.

Even some goes to the extend that say everyone can possibly become Murshi-e-Kamil. You seem to be silent about that, which implies you share his views. This seems very biased from where I see and that affects one's judgement, especially you, at the moderator's position. Anyways, it's just my 2 cents, the rest is up to you.

[agakhani]

Tret,
Not some but our pirs has said in their ginans that H.Ali was the 10th incarnation of Visnu avatar, but never mind first ask your self do you believe in Das avatars?
The answer is simple no because you are lost, you lost in many different things and ignorance of our great pirs and farmans of our imams ar one of them.

[Admin]

"incarnation" is a most unfortunate choice of word and I would translate as 10 Manifestations,

[Admin]

This seems very biased from where I see and that affects one's judgement, especially you, at the moderator's position. Anyways, it's just my 2 cents, the rest is up to you.

If I would have to endorse the views of each person that post here, I would look like a very confuse person.

However, there are rules that each can read before postingas they are available and these rules have to be followed. For example if I know of a Farman that is contradicted by a post, I will moderate the post. The person posting may not know it and I may fail to let him know.

That is how it happens in real life. This world is not perfect. If one follows the rule, he will not have the surprise to see reactions from the moderator. And that is why a moderator has far reaching powers on the forum he moderates.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad.
First define what is a living human being n an idol.
If one is blessed to see the noor in baatin as well recocnize the the human as God out of his faith n belief.
then I think worshiping that human(i any word can be sad (iternal blah blah)
is most practical way.
because that entity listens,gives blessing.forgive your sin in reality.

It is not praying to dumb idol n object.(who cannot reply)
so comparing the two can be work of the greatest idiot.
imam quran say noor(intllect) is contained in Body.
only body we see as noorani face is MHI.
iN BAATIN DEEDAR YOU GET SEE GOD.
NOT SOME animal, or bright light, deep ocean or galaxcy but MHI N mHi
OF THE TIME ONLY.
so I worship him as ALI.as noor is collateral to body n mind,there in.
what the point to move body etc to unseen unknown only fool do that.
precisely becuase of that rituals,sybols today 13% of world poplution is atheist and 12% more are non-religious( they belong to a faith n do no believe n practice at all).
I have 20 reasons why pray to ALI.
this figure was 7% is 2005 in seven years 2012 it is 12 %, 7 % increase in 5 years imagine in next 35 years. as education n literacy grows
people do not accept un known rubbish from any religion.
many hindu freind when i discuss religion say that we are licky to pray to Imam.
Infact the content of our dua In baatin n our tassbih is straight forward praying to HIM/ali/mhi.

Any my intellect level n understanding if I would been born in any other religion ,I would have turned atheist for logical reasons. WE ALL ARE PRAYING TO HIM. CATCH THE EAR BY ANY HAND.
only the low blessed n low faith mind will make speculative layer with fancy words.
worshiping a seen tried n tested entity is million time better than unknown,unseen, speculatively defined by every tom dick,n harry.
WE ARE TARIQATI N HAQIQATI AS WELL AS MARFARTI (TAWHID)
read the preamble how we abide ourselves by a living entity.

my question ,
Is the words 'spiritual father'.
Does this entity covers the whole human population of select few.?
does every section have claimant for spiritual father. ?

TO SEE THE FACE OF ALI IS WORSHIP.
An authentic hadith.

[mazhar]

Dear Nuseri,
When we believe in Noor, then there is no need of photos in jk. Noor has no shadow. The jk which I attend has photos of young age, where as HI is aging now. Do we believe in young Noor or old Noor?.

[mazhar]

Dear Administration,
Please do not delete this posting, let readers think and reflect.
In 1964,at a gathering of Ismailia Association Karachi Hazar Imam made the following Farman;

Hazar Imam said," Yes, Farman on that was very clear from my grand father.It was not Aly Allah, it was Alyullah, which has different meaning, which means that
ALY IS FROM ALLAH. Do not confuse it.This means that the spirit of Aly and the Noor of Aly is from Allah, and this is the belief which the jamait has; this is the true
conception of Noor, so that we can look into this point, alright." ( Karachi - 1964 )