Our faith

[yaali101]

I came across this site, which I believe some of you might have visited before(will not mention the name). I saw on the site much about our faith from a former ismaili who indeed knows a lot. Looking over the material on the site I found myself questioning my own jamati institutions. On the site it mentioned that the Imam has contradicted himself on many occasions and they genetically he is not a direct descendant of Prophet Mohammed. Now, I found many flaws on his site regarding other faith and I know all the material is just published by him on the site so it is obviously biased. On the site it mentioned that Mowla'na Ima'm Hasan Ala'Zikrihis Salaam is not a direct descendant, instead he is a descendant of a dai. It also mentioned that ginans, farmans,etc have been edited etc. Why does the tariqa board not tell us why these things happen? How come there is so much vagueness in our teachings?

[star_munir]

The topic which you have raised has already been discussed. I know about which site you are pointing out. The thing is that how can we expect to say good things about our faith from a former Ismaili. If some one is muslim and later he becomes non muslim then he will never say good about Islam and vice versa.
The fact that Hazir Imam is direct descendant of Prophet Muhammad {PBUH} is accepted by many non ismailis of todays time and how can we question about it? Actually the thing you mentioned is also quoted by Farhad Daftary in book published by IIS. That is Hazir Imam is not direct discendant but the thing contradicts with Farman, Ismaili History, Ginans and with Promise of God. So its fake thing. It is in Ismaili history that many times enemies of Imam have made false claims that Imam of that time was not direct discendant of Prophet Muhammad {PBUH} but all proved to be wrong because the world can not exist without a Living Imam and only Imam can claim that Imamat will continue till day of judgement and enemies inspite of trying their best were not succeeding in ending the rope of Imamat.
Farmans and Ginans are like Noor. Can there be changings in words of it? No one has right to change Farman but there Farmans in different time according to that time. World and time changes. The thing and life in past was different from that at present so what and how we live in this changing world the Imam guides us in Farmans.

[curious2]

Why does the tariqa board not tell us why these things happen?

Brother, you have a point there. Care to clarify what you mean by tariqa board not telling us why these things happen? For example, a) There is no tariqa board website to counter that website?, b) You don't know how to counter that website's claim?, or c) You don't have trust in your own faith/history?

Don't worry, be happy. I'm in agreement with you.

[kandani]

Ya Ali Madad,

Akbarally does not provide all the details on his website regarding his accusations and slander about the Alid geneaology of Hazar Imam.

The same author - Farhad Daftary - has pubically said that there is no longer any doubt that Aga KHan IV is the direct descendant of Prophet Muhammad.

The Grand Mufti of Syria (a prominent sunni cleric) has also endorsed the genealogy of the Imam.

Also note...

When Imam Hasan Ala-dhikrihi as-Salaam ascended the throne of Imamat, there were no disputes over his geneaology.

These questions of genealogy came 50-100 years after the fact.

If you look on this site, you will find evidence about the Imam Hadi, Mohtadi and Imam Qahir.

I have a copy of a speech made by Imam Muhtadi which proves his existence and predicts the coming of Imam Hasan Ala-dhikrihi as-Salaam.

[yaali101]

Brother, you have a point there. Care to clarify what you mean by tariqa board not telling us why these things happen? For example, a) There is no tariqa board website to counter that website?, b) You don't know how to counter that website's claim?, or c) You don't have trust in your own faith/history?

Don't worry, be happy. I'm in agreement with you.

Well, the Tariqa board does a poor job in countering such sites,etc. I do agree that the IIS is publishing material that puts reality in perspective by disproving claims by others that we were assassins, etc. However, the general jamat is not aware of edits made to our ginans, etc. These do exists. Also, I am in no manner questioning the imam's infallablility, but why does the Imam edit his farmans after he makes them before being published. I rmr during the Houston mulakat he said something like Sept 9th, but then the farman was edited to Sept 11th. I guess he could have been hinting the date it was planned. I also wanted to know why we have so many majalises and tasbhis? In the end isn't it just a link between god and us? I guess it could be to help folks stay on the right path.

[al-azhar]

[quote="yaali101"]
"Also, I am in no manner questioning the imam's infallablility, but why does the Imam edit his farmans after he makes them before being published. I rmr during the Houston mulakat he said something like Sept 9th, but then the farman was edited to Sept 11th."

You do indeed question the Imam yaali101. Sometimes you will find answers to such questions in the future. However there is nothing stopping anyone from leaving our tariqa. You do not have to somewhat believe in the Imam if you do not have a one hundred faith in Him. My experience tells me that when one detects a "mistake" that the Imam may have made is a test for one's own faith.
So if your faith is shaken, leave now and find the truth you see fit for your intellect.

[kmaherali]

Also, I am in no manner questioning the imam's infallablility, but why does the Imam edit his farmans after he makes them before being published. I rmr during the Houston mulakat he said something like Sept 9th, but then the farman was edited to Sept 11th. I guess he could have been hinting the date it was planned. I also wanted to know why we have so many majalises and tasbhis? In the end isn't it just a link between god and us? I guess it could be to help folks stay on the right path.

It is absolutely the prerogative of the Imam to determine what to say and how to say it. What the Imam tells his murids in an informal/spontaneous context of a particular circumstance can be different than what he would tell the Jamat in a recorded/printed form for general distribution or future reference.

In general the context of the audience is important to bear in mind when interpreting MHI's messages.

[kmaherali]

On the site it mentioned that Mowla'na Ima'm Hasan Ala'Zikrihis Salaam is not a direct descendant, instead he is a descendant of a dai. It also mentioned that ginans, farmans,etc have been edited etc. Why does the tariqa board not tell us why these things happen? How come there is so much vagueness in our teachings?

On the question of the continuity of Imamat through the progeny of the Prophet, I think we have sufficient history to confirm the truth. About 30 generations have elapsed since then. I do not believe that a false lineage could survive that long! Throughout our history there have appeared false claimants to the office of Imamat and they have disappeared within a few generations.

Also we have to keep in mind, there will always be those who oppose us and will write and publish hostile material. We have to be wise in this respect and apply our intellects....and off course we have resources of our own - this site for example, to clarify things. Tariqah boards cannot address all issues in a formal/official sense.

[curious2]

So if your faith is shaken, leave now and find the truth you see fit for your intellect.

Why leave?

[curious2]

However, the general jamat is not aware of edits made to our ginans, etc. These do exists.

Are you not a general jamat? Do you not know? So why worry about the guy next door? Assume he knows too.

Also, I am in no manner questioning the imam's infallablility, but why does the Imam edit his farmans after he makes them before being published.

Do you want him to make written political speech instead of spontenous Holy Farmans? Anwer it yourself brother. Why should he not edit for general distribution the world over, what he say as a holy Farman during a deedar or otherwise for one particular country or location?

I rmr during the Houston mulakat he said something like Sept 9th, but then the farman was edited to Sept 11th. I guess he could have been hinting the date it was planned.

I guess you are not satisfied with the notion of editing, perhaps thinking someone else edits His farmans and not himself. You need to verify the facts from fictions. There is no such thing as someone else edits his farmans. If you have been told that someone else edits his farmans without him knowing about it, then you need to ask him for proof.

I also wanted to know why we have so many majalises and tasbhis? In the end isn't it just a link between god and us? I guess it could be to help folks stay on the right path.

This is a question which requires you to read other threads, correct?

[sheri]

You do indeed question the Imam yaali101. Sometimes you will find answers to such questions in the future. However there is nothing stopping anyone from leaving our tariqa. You do not have to somewhat believe in the Imam if you do not have a o&shy;ne hundred faith in Him. My experience tells me that when o&shy;ne detects a "mistake" that the Imam may have made is a test for o&shy;ne's own faith.<BR>So if your faith is shaken, leave now and find the truth you see fit for your intellect.

I dont like your style of answering. There is no harm having questions. Everyone does have such questions and they need to be answered postively to one who is in the tariqah. Otherwise, one should not answer at all.

[yaali101]

"Also, I am in no manner questioning the imam's infallablility, but why does the Imam edit his farmans after he makes them before being published. I rmr during the Houston mulakat he said something like Sept 9th, but then the farman was edited to Sept 11th."

You do indeed question the Imam yaali101. Sometimes you will find answers to such questions in the future. However there is nothing stopping anyone from leaving our tariqa. You do not have to somewhat believe in the Imam if you do not have a one hundred faith in Him. My experience tells me that when one detects a "mistake" that the Imam may have made is a test for one's own faith.
So if your faith is shaken, leave now and find the truth you see fit for your intellect.

Wow. I should leave? I thought our faith was established on the premise of questioning so that we can figure out the truth. Also, I never made the claim that someone else was editing the farmans. The concept of editing a farman so that it can be distributed across Jamats makes clear sense, and it does provide me with a satisfactory answer. I would like to make it clear that I did not intend to question the infallibility of the Imam, instead I was pointing out what was said in the farman - maybe it meant something else. I would like to thank you all for helping me find the answers to my questions.

YAM

[sofiya]

The Imam's word on the Faith is taken as an absolute rule. Every Ismaili is expected to accept it. The Community always follows very closely the personal way of thinking of the Imam. It's one of the particularities of Ismailis. [Sunday Times Interview] 12 Dec. 1965.

-- Aga Khan IV

[al-azhar]

yaali101 said"Wow. I should leave? I thought our faith was established on the premise of questioning so that we can figure out the truth."

It sounds really harsh to ask someone to leave, what I said is meant for someone who questions the Imam to figure out the "truth". The last time I heard something similar was when Azazil refused to bow down to Adam because he, Azazil would bow down to Allah only.
Sorry to have hurt your feelings yaali101, I thought you were trying to create mischief.

[unnalhaq]

yaali101 said"Wow. I should leave? I thought our faith was established on the premise of questioning so that we can figure out the truth."

It sounds really harsh to ask someone to leave, what I said is meant for someone who questions the Imam to figure out the "truth". The last time I heard something similar was when Azazil refused to bow down to Adam because he, Azazil would bow down to Allah only.
Sorry to have hurt your feelings yaali101, I thought you were trying to create mischief.

I don't think you have hurt anyone's feeling but it showed how intolerant you and others are or can be. I don't think yali101, questioned The Imam, he/she is looking for an answer or views on the topic. According to you any many you can't questing the Farman, or The Imam's message. Well, chew on this as you say The Imam's Farmans are absolute:
6th Imam decreed/declared that Ismail has passed/expired!
Well question that? You'll find out that there was a hit put on Ismail before he became the imam of the time and to keep him protected that was the farman of that time.
I just wish folks here (cyber media) and elsewhere be more tolerant and seek knowledge and don't take questions as personal attacks just because folks don't know how to respond.

[nagib]

I guess you are not satisfied with the notion of editing, perhaps thinking someone else edits His farmans and not himself. You need to verify the facts from fictions.

IN 1998 Lisbon farman, Hazar Imam said it was UNFORTUNATE that the old 1986 Ismaili Constitution did not have the names of the Apex institution so he promulgated a new constitution with those names [Focus etc]. In the Edited copy read in JK they have said it was FORTUNATE.

There were HUNDRED such changes in the London 1994 didar and darbar Farmans when they were released to the Jamat. Anyone thinking that Imam makes these changes has a mistaken understanding of what Imam and Imamat means.

There is a difference between what Imam knows and what Imam does. Sultan Muhammad Shah said Imam Hussein knew what will happen at Karbala, he still went there and did not try to change the outcome of what was to happen.

Imam Jafar Sadiq said the next Imam would be Ismail. The Ithnashri are saying the Imam edited his Farman and replaced the name of Ismail but that of Musa Kazim in the edited approved farman to be read to the Jamat. And even the Mustalian recognise that Mustansirbillah pointed Nizar as his successor to the Imamat but they say, he realised it was a -mistake - and then edited his farman to read that "I appoint Mustali as Imam."

Ismailis said, no, once the Farman is made, it is made. We can not pretend that that day at this time he said THIS when he really said THAT. Imam has the prerogative to make new Farmans when he wishes with a new date on it but we do not have the prerogative to pretend he said alpha when he said Beta at that time.

It is not for nothing that Hazar Imam has said in 1992 Institutional dinner speech that the first premisse is to understanf Imamat.

If I was to list the edition made on Imam's farman since 1979 [editing started late, our forefather never dare do such things], it would make a thousand pages book and I may well document this one day so some of you guys realise that Hazar Imam is not an analphabet who does not know what he says and does not have coloquial French and does not think in French and talk in English therefore making mistakes that he has to edit and, oh yes, I missed almost this one which I heard several times: he had a slip of tongue

Nagib

[star_munir]

I agree with you !

[ShamsB]

Brother, you have a point there. Care to clarify what you mean by tariqa board not telling us why these things happen? For example, a) There is no tariqa board website to counter that website?, b) You don't know how to counter that website's claim?, or c) You don't have trust in your own faith/history?

Don't worry, be happy. I'm in agreement with you.

Well, the Tariqa board does a poor job in countering such sites,etc. I do agree that the IIS is publishing material that puts reality in perspective by disproving claims by others that we were assassins, etc. However, the general jamat is not aware of edits made to our ginans, etc. These do exists. Also, I am in no manner questioning the imam's infallablility, but why does the Imam edit his farmans after he makes them before being published. I rmr during the Houston mulakat he said something like Sept 9th, but then the farman was edited to Sept 11th. I guess he could have been hinting the date it was planned. I also wanted to know why we have so many majalises and tasbhis? In the end isn't it just a link between god and us? I guess it could be to help folks stay on the right path.

By countering or even discussing folks such as AM we are giving him importance...he is winning what he set out to do.
He isn't even worth discussing.

Shams

[logical]

"the general jamat is not aware of edits made to our ginans, etc. These do exists"

"I am in no manner questioning the imam's infallablility"

"Wow. I should leave? I thought our faith was established on the premise of questioning so that we can figure out the truth"

Dear yaali101,
Ismaili faith is based on Intellect .

There is a difference between
(1)using intellect to enlighten
VERSUS
(2)using intellect to create mischief.

Pls demonstrate for us and decipher this verse from the Infallible Quran:

[Al Quran 2:106] Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?

[curious2]

I thought I wrote something after Nagib .... hmmm... am I on the watch list here? You keeping me in the same league as that ismaili turned christian guy? ....hmmm.....why would the moderator remove my message?. This makes me mad and sad.

[Admin]

I thought I wrote something after Nagib .... hmmm... am I on the watch list here? You keeping me in the same league as that ismaili turned christian guy? ....hmmm.....why would the moderator remove my message?. This makes me mad and sad.

There was one message from you to Nagib and another from Nagib to you which were removed as they brought nothing to the discussions on the title subject nor to the readers of this thread. Personnal discussions should be carried by email between users if they are not usefull to the members. There was no intent to offense anyone by removing these messages.

Admin

[curious2]

There was one message from you to Nagib and another from Nagib to you which were removed as they brought nothing to the discussions on the title subject nor to the readers of this thread. Personnal discussions should be carried by email between users if they are not usefull to the members. There was no intent to offense anyone by removing these messages.

Admin

Okay Nagib bhaiyaa, Farman editing is not part of our faith, remember that !!!. And the person who asked about editing of Farman, should know, that it isn't beneficial to anyone to discuss such a thing in open. Which, by the way, makes me recall, that I stated more or less the same thing in my post, but it got deleted.

Thank you admin bhai for taking your time to clarify what is beneficial to others and what is not. I have no further complaints.