Are we idolaters?
I posted this question to gain some new perspectives on whether or not ismailis today ourselves as idolaters or not. With this forum, I have learned some new ideologies that I never knew about before! Now it is apparent that quite a few ppl have a personal vendetta against me for bringing up this question! I had anticipated a completely different reaction! This forum has rapidly turned into something else tho! I am the recipient of the hate directed to Sunnis! Nevertheless, like I said above, I have gained some new perspectives on whether or not we considered ourselves as idolaters! We might as well end this topic and start a new one on Gulmani's Satanic beliefs!
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star_munir
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Hi every one,
Mowlana Hazir Imam said,"On the spiritual plane, the Imam's authority is absolute. Ismailis believe therefore that what the Imam says is the only true interpretation possible. This is fundamental to our religion."
{Interview of March 1975}
You asked about as Ismailis do we worship Imam?
Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah said," I am a direct descendant of Prophet Muhammad and a large number of Mohammaden faith today numbering about 20000000 acknowledge Me as their spiritual head. They pay me tribute and WORSHIP ME who have the blood of their Prophet in My vien."
Regarding changings in Ismaili Faith
Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah worte,"...Our religion is our religion, you either believe in it or you do not. You can leave a faith but you can not, if you do not accept its tenets remain within it and claim to reform it......There has never been any question of changing the Ismaili faith, that faith has remained the same and must remain the same."
Regarding idol worshiping
So far I havent seen any Ismaili making any idol of Imam and worshiping it. Ismailis dont believe the physical humand Boday of Imam as God but we believe He is bearer of Noor of God.
"Since, My Grandfather, the Last Aga Khan died, I have been the bearer of the Noor..."{Hazir Imam Interview on Dec 12,1965}
Mowlana Hazir Imam said,"On the spiritual plane, the Imam's authority is absolute. Ismailis believe therefore that what the Imam says is the only true interpretation possible. This is fundamental to our religion."
{Interview of March 1975}
You asked about as Ismailis do we worship Imam?
Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah said," I am a direct descendant of Prophet Muhammad and a large number of Mohammaden faith today numbering about 20000000 acknowledge Me as their spiritual head. They pay me tribute and WORSHIP ME who have the blood of their Prophet in My vien."
Regarding changings in Ismaili Faith
Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah worte,"...Our religion is our religion, you either believe in it or you do not. You can leave a faith but you can not, if you do not accept its tenets remain within it and claim to reform it......There has never been any question of changing the Ismaili faith, that faith has remained the same and must remain the same."
Regarding idol worshiping
So far I havent seen any Ismaili making any idol of Imam and worshiping it. Ismailis dont believe the physical humand Boday of Imam as God but we believe He is bearer of Noor of God.
"Since, My Grandfather, the Last Aga Khan died, I have been the bearer of the Noor..."{Hazir Imam Interview on Dec 12,1965}
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star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Just like K.MaherAli said I would also like to repeat that under this topic, different issues and questions are raised which are already discussed before so kindly while discussing on fasting, Dua/namaz, Haj, Imamat refer to those topics which are previously discussed under different sections and then if there is any question or point of disagreement or similar views then write it over there.
Brother a_gulmani, how are you? You feeling okay and proud to have gained new perspective and knowledge? I hope you did. Just look beyond the smoke, and if you are really, genuinely seeking knowledge and understanding then you won't be asking us to create this new Satanic topic for yourself.a_gulmani wrote:We might as well end this topic and start a new one on Gulmani's Satanic beliefs!
Brother Gulmani,
As promised I am responding to your Quotations re: Suras as you stated:1. Fajr (Dawn Prayer)- Before sunrise. Mentioned in 24:58.
2. Zuhr (Noon Prayer)- As sun declines. Mentioned in 17:78.
3. Asr (Afternoon Prayer)- Between noon and sunset. Mentioned in 2:238.
4. Maghrib (Sunset Prayer)- Right after sunset. Mentioned in 11:114.
5. Isha (Night Prayer)- During the night. Mentioned in 11:114
No problem with 1, 4, 5. In fact Allah S.W.T. has repeatedly said in the Qur'an to observe prayers at the two ends of the day and at night. This is what the Ismailis have been doing.
No. 2: 17:78 states: [Pickthal 17:78] Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed.
This ayat can be differently interpreted.
No. 3. Sura 2, 238: [Pickthal 2:238] Be guardians of your prayers, and of the midmost prayer, and stand up with devotion to Allah.
This can be referred to Asr prayer. There is a hadith of the Prophet in Bokhari, Vol 9 page 363, No. 7368 "Abdullah Al-Muzani narrated: The Prophet (PBUH) said: "Perform (an optonal) prayer before Sunset prayer". He repeated it thrice and the the third time he said: "Whoever wants to offer it can do so", lest the people should take it as a Sunna (tradition)."
You state:
Wouldn't you be more comfortable in offering your Namaz in a more conducive environment, i.e. where others pray the same Namaz?
As regards "reconsidering your religion", I think you have already done so by questioning the life style of the Imam, the patriach of the faith, the money collected in JK, disregarding his farman to recite the Du'a, and wanting to change the Ismaili religion which nobody but the Imam alone has a right to do so.
You also said that Imam had come to Canada to receive an award and at the request of the Council he gave us the deedar. Agree. Was the award for "the lifestyle of the Imam" or was it for his extensive work towards humanity which includes us too. 2. He had also come to set up the center for pluralism which would benefit each and everybody in the world who wishes to participate. 3. As regards the deedar, Council always requests the Imam but most of the time Imam does not have the time, however, this time he agreed and also he himself expressed his DESIRE to see the "world Jamat" i.e. he wanted the Canadians to welcome all the Ismailis from wherever they came and with his grace the Deedar was a tremendous success.
You have also stated that there used to be a lot of pictures in JK but they have come down to two and we should wait and see what happens. You seem to have a crystal bowl. Are you saying the pictures will be replaced with the pictures of Kaba like in some Mosques? or replaced with Shrines of Panj tan Pak as some Muslims do or is it that there will be no pictures at all. This latter would not bother me because I do not go to JK to see Imam's picture. I go there because I feel his presence without even looking at his picture.
You questioned as to what would be wrong with people who touch their head with Karbala's mati because these people probably want to feel close to Iraq/Karbala. I think you have double standards here. You have a problem with pictures of Imam in JK (may be some Ismailis want to feel close to Imam???). I think when you go down in Sajada, you are bowing to nobody but Allah S.W.T. in order to feel close to Him and not to Karbala's mati, but to each his own. Ad regards the carpet, we need the carpet to make us feel comfortable during prayers - there is a difference between doing on Sajada on carpet and a piece of rock!
As regards your problem with Imam's name being recited before Al-Lahum-ma laka Sujudi wa Ta'ati.
I strongly advise you to read the meanings again.
Part I: O Allah, let Thy peace be on Muhammad -= the chosen, and onAly - the favourite, and on the Imams the pure, and on the evidence of Thy Authority - the Lord of the age and the time our present living Imam, our Lord Shah Karim-al-Husayni.
O Allah o Thee is my prostration and obedience.
I the above para, we are not only mentioning the present Imam but the Prophet, Mowla Ali and other Imams...etc. We are asking Allah to let His peace be upon them.
What is your problem here?
Part 2. There is no deity except Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, Aly - the master of believers is from Allah. Our Lord Shah Karim Al-Husayni is our present living Imam.
O Allah to Thee is my prostration and obedience.
What is wrong here?
I am not going to bore people here. But readthe translation and decide yourself for the rest of the 4 parts.
Good Luck.
Finally you wanted me to be specific in which mosques were the Shrines.
I told you: The Shrine of Imam Ali is in Najaf Mosque where Ithnas attend. Sayida Zainab and Sayida Rukaiya are Shia/Ithna Mosques in Damascus where all Muslims attend. Ithnas also have shirne of Imam Raza and their other Imams in Iran around which they have built mosques.
The Mosque in Jerusalem where they have the Prophet's hair and nails is visited by all Muslims and all Muslims pray in there except the Ismailis. Ditto with the Prophet's Muhammads tomb inside the quarters of what used to be Hazarat Ayesha's house and which has been added to the Medinah Mosque. Ironically, according to a hadith, the Prophet had expressed to Hazarat Ayesha that he would not like his grave to be inside a mosque like the Christian churches. I am sure, you can tell who mostly worships inside Medinah Mosques. Again in Syria is Omayaad mosque, mostly Sunnis offer their prayers there and occasionally some Shias too. The tomb of Hazarat Yahya rests here. There is imam Hussein's mosque in Egypt. The list is very long. All Muslims, except the Shia Imami Nizari Ismailis pray in these mosques. They go to visit them for the sake of history but not to do minats as other Muslims do.
Virgo 2
As promised I am responding to your Quotations re: Suras as you stated:1. Fajr (Dawn Prayer)- Before sunrise. Mentioned in 24:58.
2. Zuhr (Noon Prayer)- As sun declines. Mentioned in 17:78.
3. Asr (Afternoon Prayer)- Between noon and sunset. Mentioned in 2:238.
4. Maghrib (Sunset Prayer)- Right after sunset. Mentioned in 11:114.
5. Isha (Night Prayer)- During the night. Mentioned in 11:114
No problem with 1, 4, 5. In fact Allah S.W.T. has repeatedly said in the Qur'an to observe prayers at the two ends of the day and at night. This is what the Ismailis have been doing.
No. 2: 17:78 states: [Pickthal 17:78] Establish worship at the going down of the sun until the dark of night, and (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn. Lo! (the recital of) the Qur'an at dawn is ever witnessed.
This ayat can be differently interpreted.
No. 3. Sura 2, 238: [Pickthal 2:238] Be guardians of your prayers, and of the midmost prayer, and stand up with devotion to Allah.
This can be referred to Asr prayer. There is a hadith of the Prophet in Bokhari, Vol 9 page 363, No. 7368 "Abdullah Al-Muzani narrated: The Prophet (PBUH) said: "Perform (an optonal) prayer before Sunset prayer". He repeated it thrice and the the third time he said: "Whoever wants to offer it can do so", lest the people should take it as a Sunna (tradition)."
You state:
I personally do not see why you cannot recite your namaz in Khane. But I do not understand why you would want to recite the Namaz in Khane after the Du'as have been recited. Is it because you think Namaz are better than the Dua? How? How would other Muslims feel if I went to their Mosque and recited my Du'a after the Namaz. Please do not tell me that they would not care because they do care. When the Ithnas go to Sunni Masjids, they are kicked out. I heard it from an Ithna himself because Sunnis do not allow other Muslims to recite their own prayers in their Mosques.Is it disrespectful to pray namaz after ceremonies in khane completed or is it disrespectful to be kicked out of khane for praying namaz when khane is finished? Do you really think this isn't the faith for me? Do you really think I should reconsider my religion?
Wouldn't you be more comfortable in offering your Namaz in a more conducive environment, i.e. where others pray the same Namaz?
As regards "reconsidering your religion", I think you have already done so by questioning the life style of the Imam, the patriach of the faith, the money collected in JK, disregarding his farman to recite the Du'a, and wanting to change the Ismaili religion which nobody but the Imam alone has a right to do so.
You also said that Imam had come to Canada to receive an award and at the request of the Council he gave us the deedar. Agree. Was the award for "the lifestyle of the Imam" or was it for his extensive work towards humanity which includes us too. 2. He had also come to set up the center for pluralism which would benefit each and everybody in the world who wishes to participate. 3. As regards the deedar, Council always requests the Imam but most of the time Imam does not have the time, however, this time he agreed and also he himself expressed his DESIRE to see the "world Jamat" i.e. he wanted the Canadians to welcome all the Ismailis from wherever they came and with his grace the Deedar was a tremendous success.
You have also stated that there used to be a lot of pictures in JK but they have come down to two and we should wait and see what happens. You seem to have a crystal bowl. Are you saying the pictures will be replaced with the pictures of Kaba like in some Mosques? or replaced with Shrines of Panj tan Pak as some Muslims do or is it that there will be no pictures at all. This latter would not bother me because I do not go to JK to see Imam's picture. I go there because I feel his presence without even looking at his picture.
You questioned as to what would be wrong with people who touch their head with Karbala's mati because these people probably want to feel close to Iraq/Karbala. I think you have double standards here. You have a problem with pictures of Imam in JK (may be some Ismailis want to feel close to Imam???). I think when you go down in Sajada, you are bowing to nobody but Allah S.W.T. in order to feel close to Him and not to Karbala's mati, but to each his own. Ad regards the carpet, we need the carpet to make us feel comfortable during prayers - there is a difference between doing on Sajada on carpet and a piece of rock!
As regards your problem with Imam's name being recited before Al-Lahum-ma laka Sujudi wa Ta'ati.
I strongly advise you to read the meanings again.
Part I: O Allah, let Thy peace be on Muhammad -= the chosen, and onAly - the favourite, and on the Imams the pure, and on the evidence of Thy Authority - the Lord of the age and the time our present living Imam, our Lord Shah Karim-al-Husayni.
O Allah o Thee is my prostration and obedience.
I the above para, we are not only mentioning the present Imam but the Prophet, Mowla Ali and other Imams...etc. We are asking Allah to let His peace be upon them.
What is your problem here?
Part 2. There is no deity except Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, Aly - the master of believers is from Allah. Our Lord Shah Karim Al-Husayni is our present living Imam.
O Allah to Thee is my prostration and obedience.
What is wrong here?
I am not going to bore people here. But readthe translation and decide yourself for the rest of the 4 parts.
Good Luck.
Finally you wanted me to be specific in which mosques were the Shrines.
I told you: The Shrine of Imam Ali is in Najaf Mosque where Ithnas attend. Sayida Zainab and Sayida Rukaiya are Shia/Ithna Mosques in Damascus where all Muslims attend. Ithnas also have shirne of Imam Raza and their other Imams in Iran around which they have built mosques.
The Mosque in Jerusalem where they have the Prophet's hair and nails is visited by all Muslims and all Muslims pray in there except the Ismailis. Ditto with the Prophet's Muhammads tomb inside the quarters of what used to be Hazarat Ayesha's house and which has been added to the Medinah Mosque. Ironically, according to a hadith, the Prophet had expressed to Hazarat Ayesha that he would not like his grave to be inside a mosque like the Christian churches. I am sure, you can tell who mostly worships inside Medinah Mosques. Again in Syria is Omayaad mosque, mostly Sunnis offer their prayers there and occasionally some Shias too. The tomb of Hazarat Yahya rests here. There is imam Hussein's mosque in Egypt. The list is very long. All Muslims, except the Shia Imami Nizari Ismailis pray in these mosques. They go to visit them for the sake of history but not to do minats as other Muslims do.
Virgo 2
Brother Gulmani,
You state:
Part IV of our Du'a: (O Prophet) Verily, those who give Thee their allegiance, THEY GIVE IT BUT TO ALLAH (HIMSELF): ALLAH's HAND IS UPON THEIR HANDS. Then he who breaks it, he certainly breaks it against himself. AND HE WHO FULFILS WHAT HE HAS PLEDGED WITH ALLAH, HE shall in return reward him in plenty. Sura 48 ayat 10
Allegiance is given on a hand, so whoever gives allegiance to the Prophet, on his hand, gives it to Allah on His Hand. Allah continues: Allah's hand is upon their hands. We believe that Allah is Noor and has no physical attributes so what is He talking about?
Virgo2
You state:
In the following in the Qur'anVirgo 2 said: "Allah himself has equated the Prophet's hand to His own hand. In other words he has asked us to revere the Prophet as much as Allah Himself."
My response: Where??? When??? What???
Part IV of our Du'a: (O Prophet) Verily, those who give Thee their allegiance, THEY GIVE IT BUT TO ALLAH (HIMSELF): ALLAH's HAND IS UPON THEIR HANDS. Then he who breaks it, he certainly breaks it against himself. AND HE WHO FULFILS WHAT HE HAS PLEDGED WITH ALLAH, HE shall in return reward him in plenty. Sura 48 ayat 10
Allegiance is given on a hand, so whoever gives allegiance to the Prophet, on his hand, gives it to Allah on His Hand. Allah continues: Allah's hand is upon their hands. We believe that Allah is Noor and has no physical attributes so what is He talking about?
Virgo2