i dont want this to sound rebellious but im humbally trying to understand why during majalis we recite ginans several times, during regular jamat khana we do the same, some times even quasidas. but hardly ever we recite any quranic suras.
while when hazar imama is on deedar stage we had quranic recitation then ginan then quasidas.
i love my faith and practicing it, but remembering quran(being the most important islamic book "as we are muslims") will only make those ceremonies more comprehensive and its part of our tradition and believes. just like MHI emphasises on Ginans and quasidas as our traditions and we should never forget them. I think same emphasis should be on Quran as well.
I know an argument can be made that we recite sura Fatiha and Ikhlaas in dua which gives sawab of reading the entire quran. but that dosent mean we shouldnt read or recite Quran.
recitation of quranic verses in ceremonies
In my opinion, in principle we should recite Quran whenever possible. However there are practical issues involved.
We need reciters of quality to make it a pleasant experience. I personally have enjoyed listening to Quranic verses when recited well. If we are merely going to read them from the Quran, then it can be a very boring experience especially if you do not know Arabic. Perhaps Jamats in countries that are familiar with Arabic would recite the Quran more often.
Ginans on the other hand offer a diversity of ragas and hence one does not get bored with them. Also the meanings of the Ginans are known to many and hence it becomes a more meaningful experience.
Also MHI tells us to study parts of the Quran and not the entire Quran. Hence we would also need to determine which Ayats are appropriate to recite.
The above notwithstanding we recite 6 ayats from the Quran in our Dua and recite verses from the Quran in all of our main cermonies and events such as the Deedar, Ziyarat e Mayat, Idd Namaz, opening of JKs etc.
We need reciters of quality to make it a pleasant experience. I personally have enjoyed listening to Quranic verses when recited well. If we are merely going to read them from the Quran, then it can be a very boring experience especially if you do not know Arabic. Perhaps Jamats in countries that are familiar with Arabic would recite the Quran more often.
Ginans on the other hand offer a diversity of ragas and hence one does not get bored with them. Also the meanings of the Ginans are known to many and hence it becomes a more meaningful experience.
Also MHI tells us to study parts of the Quran and not the entire Quran. Hence we would also need to determine which Ayats are appropriate to recite.
The above notwithstanding we recite 6 ayats from the Quran in our Dua and recite verses from the Quran in all of our main cermonies and events such as the Deedar, Ziyarat e Mayat, Idd Namaz, opening of JKs etc.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
There is great importance of Ginans. Ginans are infact tafseer of Quran.
"The Guide dances to the tune of this song and sings the Quran to you."
[Garbi...Sat marag Shams Pir dekharia verse 5]
"He showed the mysteries of the four veds and four kitabs in reciting His verses. He Himself has appeared to dance."
[Garbi Nar Kassam Shah na farmaan verse 13]
"He proved the Quran as last ved reciting many verses. He Himself has appeared to dance."
[Nar Kassam Shah na Farmaan verse 15]
"The Guide dances to the tune of this song and sings the Quran to you."
[Garbi...Sat marag Shams Pir dekharia verse 5]
"He showed the mysteries of the four veds and four kitabs in reciting His verses. He Himself has appeared to dance."
[Garbi Nar Kassam Shah na farmaan verse 13]
"He proved the Quran as last ved reciting many verses. He Himself has appeared to dance."
[Nar Kassam Shah na Farmaan verse 15]
First of all it is very unfortunate that we can go as far as saying reciting quran could be boring. I do understand that your intent was not to disrespect Quran but was an innocent opinion.
All of our Imams and Peers studied and researced Quran as part of their religious education. Most of them were infact Hafize Quran. Mawla Ali said he is Bolta Quran, ofcourse as he was the door to the city of Knowledge but also because he was hafiz Quran. Fact that Ginans are tafseers of Quran gives us even more reason to study Quran.
I really am not aware of any farmans that tell us to study only few portion of Quran and leave the rest as they might be boring or useless. I think Studying and reciting quran should bring us close to imam as he is bolta Quran himself. For the entire ismaili history its been our practice to read quran its just we khoja ismailis they feel like its a useless arabic book. im from karachi, pakistan. my friends from punjab and from northern areas always studied quran but we didnt. Most indian ismilies are the same way they get through their lives calling themselves muslims without ever even holding quran in their hands. and i think its very unfortunate.
Arabic should never be an obstacle as our dua is in arabic and its not boring. Imam sultan mohammad shah had suggested that national language of Pakistan should be Arabic at the time of Pakistans Independance.
Prophet muhammad P.B.U.H said im leaving you two thing after me to hold on untill the day of judgement which we ismailis believe to be Imams and Holy Qurans. Imam gives us guidence and Quran is the source of knowledge and wisdom.
It is the most beautiful poetry ever written. its the only book written by Almighty Allah himself. listening to Quran turned the illiterates of Arab into the most powerful and faithful muslims ever. we are blinded not to be able to appreciate beauty, and wisdom in it.
All of our Imams and Peers studied and researced Quran as part of their religious education. Most of them were infact Hafize Quran. Mawla Ali said he is Bolta Quran, ofcourse as he was the door to the city of Knowledge but also because he was hafiz Quran. Fact that Ginans are tafseers of Quran gives us even more reason to study Quran.
I really am not aware of any farmans that tell us to study only few portion of Quran and leave the rest as they might be boring or useless. I think Studying and reciting quran should bring us close to imam as he is bolta Quran himself. For the entire ismaili history its been our practice to read quran its just we khoja ismailis they feel like its a useless arabic book. im from karachi, pakistan. my friends from punjab and from northern areas always studied quran but we didnt. Most indian ismilies are the same way they get through their lives calling themselves muslims without ever even holding quran in their hands. and i think its very unfortunate.
Arabic should never be an obstacle as our dua is in arabic and its not boring. Imam sultan mohammad shah had suggested that national language of Pakistan should be Arabic at the time of Pakistans Independance.
Prophet muhammad P.B.U.H said im leaving you two thing after me to hold on untill the day of judgement which we ismailis believe to be Imams and Holy Qurans. Imam gives us guidence and Quran is the source of knowledge and wisdom.
It is the most beautiful poetry ever written. its the only book written by Almighty Allah himself. listening to Quran turned the illiterates of Arab into the most powerful and faithful muslims ever. we are blinded not to be able to appreciate beauty, and wisdom in it.
its a perceptiont that if u read Quran you are may be acting like Sunnis. its wrong perception. Some times we fail to understand that ismailism didnt come from india or pakistan, its roots are in Arab and persia. Knowing that shows you the world outside the box. Our peers were so kind to say ginans in language that was easy to us. But ismailism existed way before the time peers came to IndoPak.
My purpose is not just to sound critical, infact my only purpose is that we Ismailis the most fortunate people of the world are most capable of understanding Quran. as we have guidance of Hazar Imam and Ginans of Peers. We souldnt let this advantage slip by our hands.
I have read Quran almost every morning for almost a year now. Quran says that best time to study it is right after morning prayers while the sun is rising. Its been a great experience, it has brought me closer to my faith. Some times i find my self alone as the chapters that i dont understand i dont find many ismaili teachers that can help me with them.
My purpose is not just to sound critical, infact my only purpose is that we Ismailis the most fortunate people of the world are most capable of understanding Quran. as we have guidance of Hazar Imam and Ginans of Peers. We souldnt let this advantage slip by our hands.
I have read Quran almost every morning for almost a year now. Quran says that best time to study it is right after morning prayers while the sun is rising. Its been a great experience, it has brought me closer to my faith. Some times i find my self alone as the chapters that i dont understand i dont find many ismaili teachers that can help me with them.
I am glad that you correctly interpreted my statement. I said reading the Quran and not reciting the Quran. This goes true with the Ginans and Qasidas as well. If they are not recited well then they can be boring as well. However we have many good reciters of the Ginans as opposed to many good reciters of the Quran.azamour wrote:First of all it is very unfortunate that we can go as far as saying reciting quran could be boring. I do understand that your intent was not to disrespect Quran but was an innocent opinion.
Yes, if we have the time and correct resources, we should study the Quran. However, realistically do you expect the majority of the Jamat to know Arabic in order to correctly interprete the Quran? If not, then which translation to consult. If the translators themselves do not have the correct understanding, how are we to derive it?azamour wrote: All of our Imams and Peers studied and researced Quran as part of their religious education. Most of them were infact Hafize Quran. Mawla Ali said he is Bolta Quran, ofcourse as he was the door to the city of Knowledge but also because he was hafiz Quran. Fact that Ginans are tafseers of Quran gives us even more reason to study Quran.
To illustrate the point I am trying to make, consider the translation given by various scholars on ayat 36:12 - Transliterated Arabic "wakulla shay-in ahsaynahu fee imamin mubeenin", that we recite in our Dua.
Pickthall : And all things We have kept in a clear Register.
Yusuf Ali: and of all things have We taken account in a clear Book (of evidence).
Shakir: and We have recorded everything in a clear writing.
Sher Ali: and all things WE have recorded in a clear Book.
Khalifa: Everything we have counted in a profound record.
Arberry: everything We have numbered in a clear register.
Palmer: and everything have we counted in a plain model.
Rodwell: and everything have we set down in the clear Book of our decrees.
Sale: and every thing do we set down in a plain register.
Any Ismaili would conclude that they are all wrong! Imam means leader! The ayat would translate as "and we have vested everything in the manifest Imam."
The above example clearly points to having a good knowledge of Arabic before engaging in meaningful study of the Quran...else we could mislead ourselves through erroneous translations.
For Dua, we have translations that accord with our interpretation and hence that problem will not arise.
"I would like you to go on improving your knowledge and your understanding of the Dua and of those parts of the Quran-e-Sharif which are important to us in our everyday lives, in our understanding of our Faith."(Bombay, 9/11/1967)azamour wrote: I really am not aware of any farmans that tell us to study only few portion of Quran and leave the rest as they might be boring or useless.
"I have told you on many an occassion how important it is that if you learn parts of the Quran, you should understand their meaning. It is important that if you recite or know parts of the Quran, you shoul be able to explain their meaning."(Bombay, 22/11/1967)
I think its much easier to recite Quran than Ginans. As every ginan is a different raag. If we can find somebody to do the eid namaz which is only done twice a year than daily recitation or during the majalis should be much less painful.
Seems like you worked hard making a point why not to read Quran with all the different translations of same Ayah. I understand that we have an issue of interpretations. Thats one reason we have 72 Sects in Islam. Fact is we all interpretate things differently. And that Not only applies to Quran but its the same with Ginans and Farmans as well. Depending on our spritual level, past experience and knowledge same things could mean different to different people. All we do is study but the understanding comes from Allah. Lets have Faith in him first, we will stay on right path Insha Allah.
And again if interpretation and understanding was so complicated and difficult for our Jamat, than why we recite Quran infront of Imam during Deedar?.
As far as Farman is concerned thats again a good example of difference in understanding. To me Imam did not use Parts Literelly as it may sound. Quran is a pretty big book and it have so many parts i.e Ayahs and Suras. so He meant we should study Parts(Ayahs and Suras) that are more useful in our day to day lives and in understanding of our Faith more Often then the other Parts(Ayahs and Suras).
Then again some times we hear only what we think we should hear.
We dont have any lack of resources and Tariqah board should be able to come up with a translation that is generally accepted. Recitation could be done during majalis with appropriate relevance. For example before 5 minute bandagi in Baitul Khayal Majlis we could recite Parts that focus on meditation and zikar of Allah with their Translation.
Thanks for your replies.
Seems like you worked hard making a point why not to read Quran with all the different translations of same Ayah. I understand that we have an issue of interpretations. Thats one reason we have 72 Sects in Islam. Fact is we all interpretate things differently. And that Not only applies to Quran but its the same with Ginans and Farmans as well. Depending on our spritual level, past experience and knowledge same things could mean different to different people. All we do is study but the understanding comes from Allah. Lets have Faith in him first, we will stay on right path Insha Allah.
And again if interpretation and understanding was so complicated and difficult for our Jamat, than why we recite Quran infront of Imam during Deedar?.
As far as Farman is concerned thats again a good example of difference in understanding. To me Imam did not use Parts Literelly as it may sound. Quran is a pretty big book and it have so many parts i.e Ayahs and Suras. so He meant we should study Parts(Ayahs and Suras) that are more useful in our day to day lives and in understanding of our Faith more Often then the other Parts(Ayahs and Suras).
Then again some times we hear only what we think we should hear.
We dont have any lack of resources and Tariqah board should be able to come up with a translation that is generally accepted. Recitation could be done during majalis with appropriate relevance. For example before 5 minute bandagi in Baitul Khayal Majlis we could recite Parts that focus on meditation and zikar of Allah with their Translation.
Thanks for your replies.
I am not against recitation of Quran. I am merely pointing out the practical difficulties in the implementation. Where clear translations which accord with our interpretation are available, then we should offcourse recite them as in the Deedar and offcourse for that occasion best reciters are always available!azamour wrote:And again if interpretation and understanding was so complicated and difficult for our Jamat, than why we recite Quran infront of Imam during Deedar?
"more Often then the other Parts(Ayahs and Suras)." These words are NOT to be found in the printed book "Precious Gems". I am not saying what I want to hear. I am merely pointing this from the printed versionazamour wrote: As far as Farman is concerned thats again a good example of difference in understanding. To me Imam did not use Parts Literelly as it may sound. Quran is a pretty big book and it have so many parts i.e Ayahs and Suras. so He meant we should study Parts(Ayahs and Suras) that are more useful in our day to day lives and in understanding of our Faith more Often then the other Parts(Ayahs and Suras).
Then again some times we hear only what we think we should hear. .
You are welcome!
Following is the Kalam e Mawla i heard in JK today i think i should share it with you.
Quran parhe dil roshan hove
momin dil bohat hove sukh
bohat quran parhe to lalach ghate
ke lalach dil ko bohat kare dukh
Quran parhe jo parhna jano
nahi to sunna rabb ka kalaam
sunna bhi na jaan pao kisi se
to har dam leo Allah, Rasool ka naam.
Quran parhe dil roshan hove
momin dil bohat hove sukh
bohat quran parhe to lalach ghate
ke lalach dil ko bohat kare dukh
Quran parhe jo parhna jano
nahi to sunna rabb ka kalaam
sunna bhi na jaan pao kisi se
to har dam leo Allah, Rasool ka naam.
For the benefit of those who do not know Urdu, the following is the translation.azamour wrote:Following is the Kalam e Mawla i heard in JK today i think i should share it with you.
Quran parhe dil roshan hove
momin dil bohat hove sukh
bohat quran parhe to lalach ghate
ke lalach dil ko bohat kare dukh
Quran parhe jo parhna jano
nahi to sunna rabb ka kalaam
sunna bhi na jaan pao kisi se
to har dam leo Allah, Rasool ka naam.
The heart of the person who reads the Holy Qur'aan is enlightened, and such a momin's heart attains peace. By reading the Holy Quran frequently, the worldly temptations are reduced, for temptations are the cause of great unhappiness to the heart. Recite the Holy Quraan if you know how to, else listen to the sayings of the Lord. And if you do not get an opportunity to listen to them, recite the name of the Prophet of God always.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
As you wrote:"think Studying and reciting quran should bring us close to imam as he is bolta Quran himself. For the entire ismaili history its been our practice to read quran its just we khoja ismailis they feel like its a useless arabic book."
If you recite by properly understanding its meaning then it will bring to you close to Imam.It is in Ginan Allah ek Khasam Sabuka that A momin's heart is enlightened by Quran.
By just reciting verses in Arabic one can not get guidance except those who know Arabic very well.
Also in Ginans there is summary of Divine books of God including Quran as I quoted before
"He showed the mysteries of the four veds and four kitabs in reciting His verses. He Himself has appeared to dance."
[Garbi Nar Kassam Shah na farmaan verse 13]
Another reason can be that people of Indo Pak Sub continent are very familiar with the language of Ginans. As Quran was revealed in Arabia in Arabic language....In Ginan the message of Quran is explained in Indian Style and in Indian languages as Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah Said,"Pir Sadardin ney jo Ginan bana ker diye hain in mai Quran ka pura magaz nikal ker hindustani zaban mai sunaya hai." [Farman]
As far as I know in Punjab,Sindh,Gujrat, Maharashtra etc Ginans are recited in Majalis not Quranic verses. Correct me if I am wrong. Also I am not against the recitation of Quran but I am justifying why Ginans are recited in Majalis instead of Quranic verses in majlis.
Also you wrote,"Arabic should never be an obstacle as our dua is in arabic and its not boring. Imam sultan mohammad shah had suggested that national language of Pakistan should be Arabic at the time of Pakistans Independance."
But if you read the Farman in KIM it is that if some one knows Arabic it not means that he has become supeior. It is not that God knows only Arabic and not Indian languages. God knows all languages. It is right that Imam Suggested Arabic as national language of Pakistan as it was necessary for Pakistan but can you tell me if there is any Farman of Imam to learn Arabic?
Also you wrote,"I think its much easier to recite Quran than Ginans. As every ginan is a different raag. If we can find somebody to do the eid namaz which is only done twice a year than daily recitation or during the majalis should be much less painful"
It may be your view that you feel it more easy to recite Quran but it is not for all to understand and recite it may be because most of people living in Pak also not knows Arabic. But I think there are Ismaili missionaries and scholars who know Arabic very well.
Also you wrote,"Some times i find my self alone as the chapters that i dont understand i dont find many ismaili teachers that can help me with them"
If there is any such problem you can write and discuss with us. Hope you will get satisfactory replies here from Ismaili point of views.
If you recite by properly understanding its meaning then it will bring to you close to Imam.It is in Ginan Allah ek Khasam Sabuka that A momin's heart is enlightened by Quran.
By just reciting verses in Arabic one can not get guidance except those who know Arabic very well.
Also in Ginans there is summary of Divine books of God including Quran as I quoted before
"He showed the mysteries of the four veds and four kitabs in reciting His verses. He Himself has appeared to dance."
[Garbi Nar Kassam Shah na farmaan verse 13]
Another reason can be that people of Indo Pak Sub continent are very familiar with the language of Ginans. As Quran was revealed in Arabia in Arabic language....In Ginan the message of Quran is explained in Indian Style and in Indian languages as Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah Said,"Pir Sadardin ney jo Ginan bana ker diye hain in mai Quran ka pura magaz nikal ker hindustani zaban mai sunaya hai." [Farman]
As far as I know in Punjab,Sindh,Gujrat, Maharashtra etc Ginans are recited in Majalis not Quranic verses. Correct me if I am wrong. Also I am not against the recitation of Quran but I am justifying why Ginans are recited in Majalis instead of Quranic verses in majlis.
Also you wrote,"Arabic should never be an obstacle as our dua is in arabic and its not boring. Imam sultan mohammad shah had suggested that national language of Pakistan should be Arabic at the time of Pakistans Independance."
But if you read the Farman in KIM it is that if some one knows Arabic it not means that he has become supeior. It is not that God knows only Arabic and not Indian languages. God knows all languages. It is right that Imam Suggested Arabic as national language of Pakistan as it was necessary for Pakistan but can you tell me if there is any Farman of Imam to learn Arabic?
Also you wrote,"I think its much easier to recite Quran than Ginans. As every ginan is a different raag. If we can find somebody to do the eid namaz which is only done twice a year than daily recitation or during the majalis should be much less painful"
It may be your view that you feel it more easy to recite Quran but it is not for all to understand and recite it may be because most of people living in Pak also not knows Arabic. But I think there are Ismaili missionaries and scholars who know Arabic very well.
Also you wrote,"Some times i find my self alone as the chapters that i dont understand i dont find many ismaili teachers that can help me with them"
If there is any such problem you can write and discuss with us. Hope you will get satisfactory replies here from Ismaili point of views.
Discussion, not for the sake of discussion but for some understanding.
However, I do agree with a point that not whole of the Qur'an has religious significance, I mean, I don't see much point in reading about battles, historic destructions of cities, legal matters etc etc.
I'm from Indo Pak Sub continent but I'm not familiar with the language of Ginans. I grew up with Urdu and I learned Sindhi, but still I couldn't decipher many words used in Ginan. So technically, Ginans come under the category of boring for me.star_munir wrote:As you wrote:"think Studying and reciting quran should bring us close to imam as he is bolta Quran himself. For the entire ismaili history its been our practice to read quran its just we khoja ismailis they feel like its a useless arabic book."
If you recite by properly understanding its meaning then it will bring to you close to Imam.It is in Ginan Allah ek Khasam Sabuka that A momin's heart is enlightened by Quran.
By just reciting verses in Arabic one can not get guidance except those who know Arabic very well.
Also in Ginans there is summary of Divine books of God including Quran as I quoted before
"He showed the mysteries of the four veds and four kitabs in reciting His verses. He Himself has appeared to dance."
[Garbi Nar Kassam Shah na farmaan verse 13]
Another reason can be that people of Indo Pak Sub continent are very familiar with the language of Ginans.
Sorry, but they are not in Urdu, my mother tongue. Not my fault that I was born in Urdu speaking family.star_munir wrote:As Quran was revealed in Arabia in Arabic language....In Ginan the message of Quran is explained in Indian Style and in Indian languages as Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah Said,"Pir Sadardin ney jo Ginan bana ker diye hain in mai Quran ka pura magaz nikal ker hindustani zaban mai sunaya hai." [Farman]
If they had accepted our Imam's suggestion to make Arabic its national language then we all would have learned it. So Imam's suggestion automatically implies that he recommended we all learn Arabic (not just us Ismailis but everyone in Pakistan).star_munir wrote:As far as I know in Punjab,Sindh,Gujrat, Maharashtra etc Ginans are recited in Majalis not Quranic verses. Correct me if I am wrong. Also I am not against the recitation of Quran but I am justifying why Ginans are recited in Majalis instead of Quranic verses in majlis.
Also you wrote,"Arabic should never be an obstacle as our dua is in arabic and its not boring. Imam sultan mohammad shah had suggested that national language of Pakistan should be Arabic at the time of Pakistans Independance."
But if you read the Farman in KIM it is that if some one knows Arabic it not means that he has become supeior. It is not that God knows only Arabic and not Indian languages. God knows all languages. It is right that Imam Suggested Arabic as national language of Pakistan as it was necessary for Pakistan but can you tell me if there is any Farman of Imam to learn Arabic?
Chances of finding a Urdu speaking Pakistani who could also read Qur'anic Arabic is very high. Chances of finding a Gujrati speaking Pakistani who could read Qur'an on his/her own is very low. Reading Arabic and understanding Arabic are two different things. I don't recall great difficulty in reading Qur'an for the first time because most of the letters used are also available in Urdu. I know great many people who never tried to read Qur'an just because they couldn't or did not due to their family background. But this is besides the point.star_munir wrote:Also you wrote,"I think its much easier to recite Quran than Ginans. As every ginan is a different raag. If we can find somebody to do the eid namaz which is only done twice a year than daily recitation or during the majalis should be much less painful"
It may be your view that you feel it more easy to recite Quran but it is not for all to understand and recite it may be because most of people living in Pak also not knows Arabic. But I think there are Ismaili missionaries and scholars who know Arabic very well.
My point is: If we were to term Quran/Ginan boring just because we do not understand the language and could not decipher the meaning due to varoius factors then we're looking at troubles ahead. You are stripping the essense off by not encouraging a read just for the sake of read. There is an aspect of 'sawab' by reading Qur'an on its own in Arabic, just as there is an aura of enchantment rhyming Ginan with tune and words used. In both cases, if you're not familiar with the language you are still getting something out of it. Something which could make you go further and understand one day the significance of words and meaning.star_munir wrote:Also you wrote,"Some times i find my self alone as the chapters that i dont understand i dont find many ismaili teachers that can help me with them"
If there is any such problem you can write and discuss with us. Hope you will get satisfactory replies here from Ismaili point of views.
However, I do agree with a point that not whole of the Qur'an has religious significance, I mean, I don't see much point in reading about battles, historic destructions of cities, legal matters etc etc.
Its true that in Punjab, and northern areas Ginan is recited during ceremonies and not Quran. But You will find lots of Punjabi Ismailis and Islamilies for northern areas that have read Quran serveral times in their lives. they practice completing Quran in month of Ramdan. Atleast they own a copy of Quran.
Problem im trying to pin point is if you ask pretty much any body in jamat kahana why they havent ever read Quran? their answer would be same as what you have discussed above that Ginans have the essance of Quran. Now that sounds more of an excuse to me than an answer. Its a common perception that as we are Ismailis Ginans and Farmans are sufficient for us. and thus No need to Study difficult Arabic book.
Now who did ever tell you that the religion is suppose to be entertaining?. And It should be convinient and easy?. Islam teaches you to make religion easy on your self but it dosent tell you to discard the difficult part. Morning bandagi is most difficult, challenging, and demanding now we have held on to it. their are so many practical issues when it comes to giving up night time activities and waking up early but we still do it. reason is because their is so much emphasis on it from all sources, their are satadas, their is evening practice during baitulkhayal majlis. Does any body on this forum believe that we would have kept up with tradition of morning bandagi if their wasnt so much emphasis on it?.
My point is that their should be lot more emphasis on reading Quran or Parts of it. Just like we have Ginan classes, we could arrange Quranic study classes.
Hazarat Ali said if he explained Sura Ikhlaas (or im not sure if that was sura fatiha forgive me for that) and tried to write tafseer he will load 72 camels with the load of books and still wouldnt finish. My question is if hazarat Ali Aalim do jahan couldnt explain only on Sura in words. How could we find Gianas to be complete replacement of Quran?. Althought it is one of the greatest help we have in understanding Quran.
I do agree that Ginans are essance of Quran so why not read them side by side. who is asking you to make a choice?. When Imam said that Peer took the essance out of Quran and gave it to you in form of Ginan, he didnt really tell you to put the Quran aside. all he meant was study Quran and find help in Ginan when you want to understand it.
My reason of all this discussion is that their is so many interesting things i have came accross in breif study of Quran that i want all Ismailis to experience. Their are references, examples, metaphours, terminologies that make you curious. Make you wonder that their is so much we dont know about. I will Insha Allah Place few of those things on your forum soon.
[/img]
Problem im trying to pin point is if you ask pretty much any body in jamat kahana why they havent ever read Quran? their answer would be same as what you have discussed above that Ginans have the essance of Quran. Now that sounds more of an excuse to me than an answer. Its a common perception that as we are Ismailis Ginans and Farmans are sufficient for us. and thus No need to Study difficult Arabic book.
Now who did ever tell you that the religion is suppose to be entertaining?. And It should be convinient and easy?. Islam teaches you to make religion easy on your self but it dosent tell you to discard the difficult part. Morning bandagi is most difficult, challenging, and demanding now we have held on to it. their are so many practical issues when it comes to giving up night time activities and waking up early but we still do it. reason is because their is so much emphasis on it from all sources, their are satadas, their is evening practice during baitulkhayal majlis. Does any body on this forum believe that we would have kept up with tradition of morning bandagi if their wasnt so much emphasis on it?.
My point is that their should be lot more emphasis on reading Quran or Parts of it. Just like we have Ginan classes, we could arrange Quranic study classes.
Hazarat Ali said if he explained Sura Ikhlaas (or im not sure if that was sura fatiha forgive me for that) and tried to write tafseer he will load 72 camels with the load of books and still wouldnt finish. My question is if hazarat Ali Aalim do jahan couldnt explain only on Sura in words. How could we find Gianas to be complete replacement of Quran?. Althought it is one of the greatest help we have in understanding Quran.
I do agree that Ginans are essance of Quran so why not read them side by side. who is asking you to make a choice?. When Imam said that Peer took the essance out of Quran and gave it to you in form of Ginan, he didnt really tell you to put the Quran aside. all he meant was study Quran and find help in Ginan when you want to understand it.
My reason of all this discussion is that their is so many interesting things i have came accross in breif study of Quran that i want all Ismailis to experience. Their are references, examples, metaphours, terminologies that make you curious. Make you wonder that their is so much we dont know about. I will Insha Allah Place few of those things on your forum soon.
[/img]
Couple of more things i would like to add before we go on to next step. If we really think that only Parts of Quran should be studied. How am i suppose to know which ones to study and which one to not to study without reading the entire Quran. or is their as list of Parts prescribed by Tariqah Board or somebody else?.
their is hardly any thing that we or Jamat as a hole agree on entirely when it comes to meanings, understanding, and believes. Every one has their own understanding of pretty much any thing you talk about. for example concept of judgement day, heaven and hell, difference of imamat and nabuat, angels, and so many other things. one proof is the fact that you have almost 460 replies on "Is Hazar Imam God or Not?". Similarly topics and issues in Quran are not gona have mathematical answers. And their are so many reasons for that. One being We humans made of flesh and blood, living in material world cant comprehend spritual world. If and when we do comprehend it we are unable to express it in words. If we do express it in words people look at us funny. So we should study, raise questions and hope that we will have some kind of mutual agreement on what might be the answer.
their is hardly any thing that we or Jamat as a hole agree on entirely when it comes to meanings, understanding, and believes. Every one has their own understanding of pretty much any thing you talk about. for example concept of judgement day, heaven and hell, difference of imamat and nabuat, angels, and so many other things. one proof is the fact that you have almost 460 replies on "Is Hazar Imam God or Not?". Similarly topics and issues in Quran are not gona have mathematical answers. And their are so many reasons for that. One being We humans made of flesh and blood, living in material world cant comprehend spritual world. If and when we do comprehend it we are unable to express it in words. If we do express it in words people look at us funny. So we should study, raise questions and hope that we will have some kind of mutual agreement on what might be the answer.
That is precisely the reason Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah stated that the Pirs have given us the substance of the Quran in the Ginans. We do not therefore need to read the whole Quran to determine what parts are of importance to us. Only the Pir has the authority to determine such matters for the Jamat.azamour wrote:Couple of more things i would like to add before we go on to next step. If we really think that only Parts of Quran should be studied. How am i suppose to know which ones to study and which one to not to study without reading the entire Quran. or is their as list of Parts prescribed by Tariqah Board or somebody else?.
Yes there can be so many interpretations of the Quran. Some that accord with our interpretation. Others that do not. For example, in my earlier post I mentioned that "Imam-e-Mubin" has been wrongly interpreted by all the translators that we know about. Are we to approach the Quran through them, when they do not acknowledge our basic concept of Imamat? Certainly not. Indeed Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah advised one murid that it was not necessary for Ismailis generally to read Yusuf Ali's version because it would confuse them.
In the past our Dais have interpreted the Quran and given extensive enlightening commentaries. We may approach it through them. Else I think we have to learn Arabic to gain anything worthwhile from it. For the majority that is not practical.
I am sure that there will be scholars from the Arabic speaking Jamats who will come up and study it and give us the correct interpretation Insha allah.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
To Curious 2:
As you wrote :"I'm from Indo Pak Sub continent but I'm not familiar with the language of Ginans. I grew up with Urdu and I learned Sindhi, but still I couldn't decipher many words used in Ginan. So technically, Ginans come under the category of boring for me."
Following is extract from an article which sheds light on Gujrati is still an important language of Pakistan. The article is by Aryamon. Those who want to read complete article can send me private message.
"Gujeratis after partition in Pakistan
*****************************************
Gujeratis in Pakistan must be, and I may be off the mark, around a
couple million. BUT they have next to no representation in the Houses
or at local level. This is probably because there is so much
ignorance about them. Yet even with their small numbers they hold out
great fiscal promise and figure greatly in business, academics, art
and culture even if it is confined to their own forums.
The Pakistan TV bosses have never been more than half awake. If they
had to lose their jobs, for once they should throw open the forum to
all the wealth which Gujeratis have in terms of kavi, kavita, surati,
sarita, reet, preet, basha, bhiksha, bol, tol, kirya, karam,
shitalta, sharm.
And maybe it's time to get the bosses in the central and provincial
governments to incorporate Gujerati as optional language to whoever
wants to read it.
7 Qs Quiz re. Gujerati
****************************
Gujerati is an essential language to Pakistan, much the same as Urdu,
Punjabi, Baluchi and Pushto.
[ ] True [ ] False
This is the essential mother tongue of Baba-e-Pakistan Quaide-Azam
and When he went to school the main language he spoke and learned at
primary was gujerati.
[ ] True [ ] False
Another reason is that pre-partition it was a major regional language
for trade, politics, poetry, art, stage, media. Also prepartition,
Gujerati was a curriculum based language.
[ ] True [ ] False
All the main figures from Gandhi to Jinnah to Patel to Maulana Abdul
kalam Azad had a working knowledge of it and could converse and
controvert in it.
[ ] True [ ] False
When the kale badal ka zamana arrives, Mr. Jinnah is sick, is moved to
Ziarat north of Pakistan to basically die, the only worthwhile person
who is by his side is his sister, Fatima, and they speak of bygone
days, and tears unshed, in Gujerati.
[ ] True [ ] False
That the Gujerati stage was vital, dramatic, with great tragedies,
comedies, fables, performed on a regular basis.
[ ] True [ ] False
And the great majority of Karachiites (Aga Khani, Ishna Ashari,
Katchis, Memons, Parsis), speak Gujarati language.
[ ] True [ ] False
ALL ARE TRUE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Following is email id of writer of this article [email protected]
As you wrote :"I'm from Indo Pak Sub continent but I'm not familiar with the language of Ginans. I grew up with Urdu and I learned Sindhi, but still I couldn't decipher many words used in Ginan. So technically, Ginans come under the category of boring for me."
Following is extract from an article which sheds light on Gujrati is still an important language of Pakistan. The article is by Aryamon. Those who want to read complete article can send me private message.
"Gujeratis after partition in Pakistan
*****************************************
Gujeratis in Pakistan must be, and I may be off the mark, around a
couple million. BUT they have next to no representation in the Houses
or at local level. This is probably because there is so much
ignorance about them. Yet even with their small numbers they hold out
great fiscal promise and figure greatly in business, academics, art
and culture even if it is confined to their own forums.
The Pakistan TV bosses have never been more than half awake. If they
had to lose their jobs, for once they should throw open the forum to
all the wealth which Gujeratis have in terms of kavi, kavita, surati,
sarita, reet, preet, basha, bhiksha, bol, tol, kirya, karam,
shitalta, sharm.
And maybe it's time to get the bosses in the central and provincial
governments to incorporate Gujerati as optional language to whoever
wants to read it.
7 Qs Quiz re. Gujerati
****************************
Gujerati is an essential language to Pakistan, much the same as Urdu,
Punjabi, Baluchi and Pushto.
[ ] True [ ] False
This is the essential mother tongue of Baba-e-Pakistan Quaide-Azam
and When he went to school the main language he spoke and learned at
primary was gujerati.
[ ] True [ ] False
Another reason is that pre-partition it was a major regional language
for trade, politics, poetry, art, stage, media. Also prepartition,
Gujerati was a curriculum based language.
[ ] True [ ] False
All the main figures from Gandhi to Jinnah to Patel to Maulana Abdul
kalam Azad had a working knowledge of it and could converse and
controvert in it.
[ ] True [ ] False
When the kale badal ka zamana arrives, Mr. Jinnah is sick, is moved to
Ziarat north of Pakistan to basically die, the only worthwhile person
who is by his side is his sister, Fatima, and they speak of bygone
days, and tears unshed, in Gujerati.
[ ] True [ ] False
That the Gujerati stage was vital, dramatic, with great tragedies,
comedies, fables, performed on a regular basis.
[ ] True [ ] False
And the great majority of Karachiites (Aga Khani, Ishna Ashari,
Katchis, Memons, Parsis), speak Gujarati language.
[ ] True [ ] False
ALL ARE TRUE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Following is email id of writer of this article [email protected]
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Also in Farman of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah of Zanjibar 14/9/1899
it is that Ginans must be taught to children as the language of Ginan is familiar to language we speak.
Many Ginans genreally recited in Jamak Khana are in Gujrati but Ginans are not only in Gujrati language but many languages.
As you wrote,"Sorry, but they are not in Urdu, my mother tongue. Not my fault that I was born in Urdu speaking family."
There are Ginanic verse in hindi/urdu, Sindhi etc...If you have not read that what I can do?
it is that Ginans must be taught to children as the language of Ginan is familiar to language we speak.
Many Ginans genreally recited in Jamak Khana are in Gujrati but Ginans are not only in Gujrati language but many languages.
As you wrote,"Sorry, but they are not in Urdu, my mother tongue. Not my fault that I was born in Urdu speaking family."
There are Ginanic verse in hindi/urdu, Sindhi etc...If you have not read that what I can do?
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
As you wrote,"If they had accepted our Imam's suggestion to make Arabic its national language then we all would have learned it. So Imam's suggestion automatically implies that he recommended we all learn Arabic (not just us Ismailis but everyone in Pakistan)."
Why Imam wanted Arabic as language of Pakistan. Only Imam knows the best. There may be political reasons behind it and may be if Arabic would be national language than muslims can correctly understand Quran and other Islamic books in Arabic. There would not be need of any translator etc.
But just to rely on Speech made to general muslims and to avoid Farman made to Ismailis is you think better? Imam have said Pirs have
given you the truths from the Quran, and now what else do you need?
Kindly refer to Farmans in KIM in which Imam told that it is not essentail to know Arabic. God knows all languages. Imam said . We do not need that Khuda who knows only Arabic and does not know other languages
Why Imam wanted Arabic as language of Pakistan. Only Imam knows the best. There may be political reasons behind it and may be if Arabic would be national language than muslims can correctly understand Quran and other Islamic books in Arabic. There would not be need of any translator etc.
But just to rely on Speech made to general muslims and to avoid Farman made to Ismailis is you think better? Imam have said Pirs have
given you the truths from the Quran, and now what else do you need?
Kindly refer to Farmans in KIM in which Imam told that it is not essentail to know Arabic. God knows all languages. Imam said . We do not need that Khuda who knows only Arabic and does not know other languages
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Also you wrote, "There is an aspect of 'sawab' by reading Qur'an on its own in Arabic, just as there is an aura of enchantment rhyming Ginan with tune and words used. In both cases, if you're not familiar with the language you are still getting something out of it. Something which could make you go further and understand one day the significance of words and meaning. "
I agree there is reward for recitation but again for guidance it is necessary to know correct meanings. Just by recitation one may get reward but not guidance.
..........................................................................................................
Regarding : "Its true that in Punjab, and northern areas Ginan is recited during ceremonies and not Quran. But You will find lots of Punjabi Ismailis and Islamilies for northern areas that have read Quran serveral times in their lives. they practice completing Quran in month of Ramdan. Atleast they own a copy of Quran"
I agree. I have also read Quran.
You wrote :Hazarat Ali said if he explained Sura Ikhlaas (or im not sure if that was sura fatiha forgive me for that) and tried to write tafseer he will load 72 camels with the load of books and still wouldnt finish. My question is if hazarat Ali Aalim do jahan couldnt explain only on Sura in words. How could we find Gianas to be complete replacement of Quran?
Hazrat Ali said this about Sura Fatiha not Sura Ikhlas. Also Hazrat Ali not say that He is not capable of explaining it but He said that explanation of this will need to load books in 72 camels.
But Pir have explained all Quranic teachings and and teachings of other books of God etc in Ginans and it is in Ginan and Farman and I think I have already given appropriate refrences in this regard.
I agree there is reward for recitation but again for guidance it is necessary to know correct meanings. Just by recitation one may get reward but not guidance.
..........................................................................................................
Regarding : "Its true that in Punjab, and northern areas Ginan is recited during ceremonies and not Quran. But You will find lots of Punjabi Ismailis and Islamilies for northern areas that have read Quran serveral times in their lives. they practice completing Quran in month of Ramdan. Atleast they own a copy of Quran"
I agree. I have also read Quran.
You wrote :Hazarat Ali said if he explained Sura Ikhlaas (or im not sure if that was sura fatiha forgive me for that) and tried to write tafseer he will load 72 camels with the load of books and still wouldnt finish. My question is if hazarat Ali Aalim do jahan couldnt explain only on Sura in words. How could we find Gianas to be complete replacement of Quran?
Hazrat Ali said this about Sura Fatiha not Sura Ikhlas. Also Hazrat Ali not say that He is not capable of explaining it but He said that explanation of this will need to load books in 72 camels.
But Pir have explained all Quranic teachings and and teachings of other books of God etc in Ginans and it is in Ginan and Farman and I think I have already given appropriate refrences in this regard.
Brother, no where in my post I tried to downplay the significance and importance of any language, neither did I try to make any one language superior. All I tried to say is that I know only Urdu as the best language to understand and comprehend everything quickly. I recall long time ago I asked my Ginan teacher why don't they make these Ginans in Urdu, unfortunately, I do not recall the reply, hence my point.
Your below post is useless to me.
Your below post is useless to me.
star_munir wrote:To Curious 2:
As you wrote :"I'm from Indo Pak Sub continent but I'm not familiar with the language of Ginans. I grew up with Urdu and I learned Sindhi, but still I couldn't decipher many words used in Ginan. So technically, Ginans come under the category of boring for me."
Following is extract from an article which sheds light on Gujrati is still an important language of Pakistan. The article is by Aryamon. Those who want to read complete article can send me private message.
"Gujeratis after partition in Pakistan
*****************************************
Gujeratis in Pakistan must be, and I may be off the mark, around a
couple million. BUT they have next to no representation in the Houses
or at local level. This is probably because there is so much
ignorance about them. Yet even with their small numbers they hold out
great fiscal promise and figure greatly in business, academics, art
and culture even if it is confined to their own forums.
The Pakistan TV bosses have never been more than half awake. If they
had to lose their jobs, for once they should throw open the forum to
all the wealth which Gujeratis have in terms of kavi, kavita, surati,
sarita, reet, preet, basha, bhiksha, bol, tol, kirya, karam,
shitalta, sharm.
And maybe it's time to get the bosses in the central and provincial
governments to incorporate Gujerati as optional language to whoever
wants to read it.
7 Qs Quiz re. Gujerati
****************************
Gujerati is an essential language to Pakistan, much the same as Urdu,
Punjabi, Baluchi and Pushto.
[ ] True [ ] False
This is the essential mother tongue of Baba-e-Pakistan Quaide-Azam
and When he went to school the main language he spoke and learned at
primary was gujerati.
[ ] True [ ] False
Another reason is that pre-partition it was a major regional language
for trade, politics, poetry, art, stage, media. Also prepartition,
Gujerati was a curriculum based language.
[ ] True [ ] False
All the main figures from Gandhi to Jinnah to Patel to Maulana Abdul
kalam Azad had a working knowledge of it and could converse and
controvert in it.
[ ] True [ ] False
When the kale badal ka zamana arrives, Mr. Jinnah is sick, is moved to
Ziarat north of Pakistan to basically die, the only worthwhile person
who is by his side is his sister, Fatima, and they speak of bygone
days, and tears unshed, in Gujerati.
[ ] True [ ] False
That the Gujerati stage was vital, dramatic, with great tragedies,
comedies, fables, performed on a regular basis.
[ ] True [ ] False
And the great majority of Karachiites (Aga Khani, Ishna Ashari,
Katchis, Memons, Parsis), speak Gujarati language.
[ ] True [ ] False
ALL ARE TRUE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Following is email id of writer of this article [email protected]
Yes, no doubt. 1899, Khojas, Gujrati. The dots are connected. No need to argue anything here.star_munir wrote:Also in Farman of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah of Zanjibar 14/9/1899
it is that Ginans must be taught to children as the language of Ginan is familiar to language we speak.
No arguments here either, I never claimed that Ginans are only recited in Gujrati.star_munir wrote:Many Ginans genreally recited in Jamak Khana are in Gujrati but Ginans are not only in Gujrati language but many languages.
Yes, I never said I don't understand Ginan altogether. I do understand few words, but the complete translation is lost because the meaning as I could understand them in Urdu is incoherent.star_munir wrote:As you wrote,"Sorry, but they are not in Urdu, my mother tongue. Not my fault that I was born in Urdu speaking family."
There are Ginanic verse in hindi/urdu, Sindhi etc...If you have not read that what I can do?
Look, I used to live in Pakistan like 15 years ago, back then I only knew Urdu. Now I know more English than anything else because I live in the Western world. I know there are Ginan meanings avalable in English and there must be Ginan meanings available in Urdu back then, perhaps I didn't get a chance to get a copy, don't know. I'm giving benefit of a doubt here. I am also not arguing why we recite Ginans in one particular language or another, no it defeats the purpose. You see, the missionary over there in Pakistan did an excellent job of translating and teaching the Dua (which is in Arabic) in Urdu. When I recite Dua in Arabic, the meanings and translation in Urdu scrolls in my mind automatically, just like it must for you in Gujrati if that is your mother tongue. The same doesn't happen when I listen to or try to recite the Ginan. This is the crux of my matter which could very well be a matter of many others, perhaps not particularly you.
Yes, you have a valid point here. God is not restricted to any one language. They are wrong in claiming the superiority of Arabic as a choosen language of God. I don't take Qu'ran as a letter, I take it as a spirit. Pirs have given us the essence of Qur'an ... my only argument is: Does that essence reaches the wide audience like it should??
star_munir wrote:As you wrote,"If they had accepted our Imam's suggestion to make Arabic its national language then we all would have learned it. So Imam's suggestion automatically implies that he recommended we all learn Arabic (not just us Ismailis but everyone in Pakistan)."
Why Imam wanted Arabic as language of Pakistan. Only Imam knows the best. There may be political reasons behind it and may be if Arabic would be national language than muslims can correctly understand Quran and other Islamic books in Arabic. There would not be need of any translator etc.
But just to rely on Speech made to general muslims and to avoid Farman made to Ismailis is you think better? Imam have said Pirs have
given you the truths from the Quran, and now what else do you need?
Kindly refer to Farmans in KIM in which Imam told that it is not essentail to know Arabic. God knows all languages. Imam said . We do not need that Khuda who knows only Arabic and does not know other languages
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
Ya Ali madad
As you wrote,"Brother, no where in my post I tried to downplay the significance and importance of any language, neither did I try to make any one language superior. All I tried to say is that I know only Urdu as the best language to understand and comprehend everything quickly. I recall long time ago I asked my Ginan teacher why don't they make these Ginans in Urdu, unfortunately, I do not recall the reply, hence my point."Your below post is useless to me. "
The reason behind why I posted the extract from that article was not to show that Gujrati is more important then other language. As many of the Ginans and Garbis recited generally in JK are in Gujrati language so I posted that to show that although you dont know the Gujrati but there are many people in Pakistan who know this language and hence understand the language of Ginans.
This can not be same with Quran as majority of Ismailis of Indo Pak not know to speak Arabic and many who know how to read Quran, including me can not understand Arabic just know how to read or recite it.
I hope it clears my point.
You wrote,"Yes, I never said I don't understand Ginan altogether. I do understand few words, but the complete translation is lost because the meaning as I could understand them in Urdu is incoherent. "
I understand your problem and agree that there is need of translations of Ginans. As Ginans are not in one particular language but many Indian languages and every one not knows every langauge. So there is need of translations but even if you know Urdu and Sindhi langauge you can understand many verses for example
Haq tu Paak tu meharban bhi ya Ali tu hi tu
or
Aisa mai jaanti to chalney na deti piya. Mai bhi chalti tumharay saath rey mehrbaan meray Saheb meray daiywant meray Ya Shah tujh bina so din javenge kaisa piya ji...etc
The same can not be with Arabic language. I know that no one understands all languages of Ginans but even if you know Urdu and Sindhi you can understand some verses of Ginans without translation like quoted by me above but same can not be with Arabic language. I know many letters of Arabic are same like that of Urdu. That may be the reason if some one knows how to read Urdu can quickly learn how to read Arabic but again as you wrote I don't take Qu'ran as a letter, I take it as a spirit. One can recite but the problem that comes is in understanding the meanings.
You wrote :Yes, you have a valid point here. God is not restricted to any one language. They are wrong in claiming the superiority of Arabic as a choosen language of God. I don't take Qu'ran as a letter, I take it as a spirit. Pirs have given us the essence of Qur'an ... my only argument is: Does that essence reaches the wide audience like it should??
You are right there is need of translations of Ginans and again to clear my points of debate and discussion..I am not against recitation of Quran. I am not against Arabic language but I disagree that Quranic verses must be recited in majalis and ceremonies instead of Ginanic verses.
As you wrote,"Brother, no where in my post I tried to downplay the significance and importance of any language, neither did I try to make any one language superior. All I tried to say is that I know only Urdu as the best language to understand and comprehend everything quickly. I recall long time ago I asked my Ginan teacher why don't they make these Ginans in Urdu, unfortunately, I do not recall the reply, hence my point."Your below post is useless to me. "
The reason behind why I posted the extract from that article was not to show that Gujrati is more important then other language. As many of the Ginans and Garbis recited generally in JK are in Gujrati language so I posted that to show that although you dont know the Gujrati but there are many people in Pakistan who know this language and hence understand the language of Ginans.
This can not be same with Quran as majority of Ismailis of Indo Pak not know to speak Arabic and many who know how to read Quran, including me can not understand Arabic just know how to read or recite it.
I hope it clears my point.
You wrote,"Yes, I never said I don't understand Ginan altogether. I do understand few words, but the complete translation is lost because the meaning as I could understand them in Urdu is incoherent. "
I understand your problem and agree that there is need of translations of Ginans. As Ginans are not in one particular language but many Indian languages and every one not knows every langauge. So there is need of translations but even if you know Urdu and Sindhi langauge you can understand many verses for example
Haq tu Paak tu meharban bhi ya Ali tu hi tu
or
Aisa mai jaanti to chalney na deti piya. Mai bhi chalti tumharay saath rey mehrbaan meray Saheb meray daiywant meray Ya Shah tujh bina so din javenge kaisa piya ji...etc
The same can not be with Arabic language. I know that no one understands all languages of Ginans but even if you know Urdu and Sindhi you can understand some verses of Ginans without translation like quoted by me above but same can not be with Arabic language. I know many letters of Arabic are same like that of Urdu. That may be the reason if some one knows how to read Urdu can quickly learn how to read Arabic but again as you wrote I don't take Qu'ran as a letter, I take it as a spirit. One can recite but the problem that comes is in understanding the meanings.
You wrote :Yes, you have a valid point here. God is not restricted to any one language. They are wrong in claiming the superiority of Arabic as a choosen language of God. I don't take Qu'ran as a letter, I take it as a spirit. Pirs have given us the essence of Qur'an ... my only argument is: Does that essence reaches the wide audience like it should??
You are right there is need of translations of Ginans and again to clear my points of debate and discussion..I am not against recitation of Quran. I am not against Arabic language but I disagree that Quranic verses must be recited in majalis and ceremonies instead of Ginanic verses.
Curious
As you wrote :"I'm from Indo Pak Sub continent but I'm not familiar with the language of Ginans. I grew up with Urdu and I learned Sindhi, but still I couldn't decipher many words used in Ginan. So technically, Ginans come under the category of boring for me."
You find ginans boring! No ismaili would ever say that. Not even a Kid. What kind of message are you sending out to our younger jamat. There are Ginans with meanings. I think as a child you didn't attend religious classes or you are not an isamili but a sunni. You do not seem to know whats going on in jk because you do not attend. Just my personal view.
As you wrote :"I'm from Indo Pak Sub continent but I'm not familiar with the language of Ginans. I grew up with Urdu and I learned Sindhi, but still I couldn't decipher many words used in Ginan. So technically, Ginans come under the category of boring for me."
You find ginans boring! No ismaili would ever say that. Not even a Kid. What kind of message are you sending out to our younger jamat. There are Ginans with meanings. I think as a child you didn't attend religious classes or you are not an isamili but a sunni. You do not seem to know whats going on in jk because you do not attend. Just my personal view.
star_munir wrote:You are right there is need of translations of Ginans and again to clear my points of debate and discussion..I am not against recitation of Quran. I am not against Arabic language but I disagree that Quranic verses must be recited in majalis and ceremonies instead of Ginanic verses.
Yes, I agree here as well. As I said, I attended REC long time ago, I'm giving benefit of a doubt that now they're doing better then what they used to do. Back then the concentration was more on how one recites the Ginan compared to what it means. I obviously was envious of those who could understand everything on their own just because they knew the language very well. I even used to think that if recitation is the only goal then might as well bring back the musical instruments, why not. But anyway, that's just me, I had friends who could speak multiple languages so the situation may not be that severe.
How about future generation in the US, Canada and Europe?
Sofiya, I repeated what others were saying before me. My whole argument started just because I saw someone say something is boring just because he/she does not understand it. What is so wrong with that? You force me to recite something in French on daily basis, now if I don't understand French then what do you expect me to say? It's interesting?? I beg to differ. And don't take my words out of context, I've been doing good job of quoting others accordingly.sofiya wrote:You find ginans boring! No ismaili would ever say that.
-
star_munir
- Posts: 1670
- Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2003 12:55 am
- Contact:
As you wrote,"How about future generation in the US, Canada and Europe? "
About future Imam Knows the best. As per Farman of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah Ismailis do not have written books for Guidance but Ismailis do have Hazir Imam to guide them.
And currently there are many Farmans of Present Imam with regards to the importance of Ginans. Also you can read many many Farmans of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah about Importance of Ginans.
About Future and even at present the English translations of Ginans are available. In this website too you can find translations of many Ginans but the same is not with Quran as example given by Kmaherali.
Again if you agrees with me that on Majlis and ceremonies Ginans to be recited and only arguing on learning and understanding Quran then there is no argument between us as my point is only with regards to recitation of Ginans in majalis.
About future Imam Knows the best. As per Farman of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah Ismailis do not have written books for Guidance but Ismailis do have Hazir Imam to guide them.
And currently there are many Farmans of Present Imam with regards to the importance of Ginans. Also you can read many many Farmans of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah about Importance of Ginans.
About Future and even at present the English translations of Ginans are available. In this website too you can find translations of many Ginans but the same is not with Quran as example given by Kmaherali.
Again if you agrees with me that on Majlis and ceremonies Ginans to be recited and only arguing on learning and understanding Quran then there is no argument between us as my point is only with regards to recitation of Ginans in majalis.