This is a serious question for those who wish to engage in an open-minded talk. A talk with a free mind. A free mind being that which is not conditioned by anything or anyone. A free mind that wants to see for him/herself that which is.
Request that you only post facts (Fyi, fact is not a belief. Example of a belief: Bible is the word of God - this is a belief and not a fact. Example of a Fact in our daily lives: A gasoline car needs gas to run on). Please don't share your beliefs or opinions in this post as we want to see the fact, that which is, reality. The Reality is not a belief. We are not concerned with anyone's beliefs and/or opinions. Beliefs and opinions seem to divide humanity. Let's try to focus on the facts and see if we, for ourselves can see that which is.
I wonder if a free mind is a mind that has pre-conditioned conclusions. If you think a free mind is a mind with no conclusion at all, please take the request of not posting your beliefs and opinions here seriously. A free mind is open to explore, examine, inquire without any pre-conceived beliefs, ideas, etc. and without any fear.
Is belief Necessary
I found this article helpful...
THE TIMES SATURDAY AUGUST 23 1986
A matter of believing
Russell Stannard
Who does not sympathize with Philip, the disciple who asked Jesus to show him the Father? Or with Thomas who could not believe in the Resurrection until he had himself seen the risen Jesus? Seeing is believing. And particularly does that seem to be the case today where, under the influence of modern scientific thinking, we do not expect to have to believe in anything until we see the evidence for it.
But is it really true that scientists believe only what can be directly experienced? How about gravity? Release an object, a comb. say. and it falls to the ground. Why does it fall? Gravity. But we cannot see gravity — not gravity itself.
The reason we believe in it is that acceptance of the existence of gravity helps us to explain many of the phenomena that we do see: all falling objects (not just combs), the motions of the planets, and so on.
Pick up the comb and pass it through your hair. It is now capable of attracting and picking up a small piece of paper. How does it do it? Electricity. Can we see electricity? Once more the answer is no. Belief in electricity, like that in gravity, comes about because such an acceptance again allows us to explain a wide variety of phenomena that can be seen, whilst the cause itself, as before, remains unseen.
How about the composition of the comb — what is it made of? Quarks and electrons, the infinitesimally small constituents of atoms. Being so small, they too cannot be seen. Again we find ourselves believing in things that are not accessible to us directly.
This is not to deny that science is fundamentally rooted in careful observation of the world; to this extent seeing is indeed believing. But there is more to science than describing merely what is seen. Science seeks to go beyond appearances and explain what is observed. It is in doing this that it cannot help but make reference to that which, by its very nature, must remain unseen.
Science is not alone in this. Recently, turning over the soil in my garden, I inadvertently cut through a worm. Automatically I thought of it as being in pain. But was it really? Both sections of the unfortunate worm's body were writhing. Was I to conclude that both were in pain, the worm now having two minds? Or does a worm have no mind, no feelings? It is impossible to say. Minds, thoughts, feelings cannot be seen.
Indeed, if I am to be strictly accurate and pedantic. I cannot claim to know for certain that anyone. apart from myself, has mental experiences -and I don't just mean having doubts about the minds of animals. I could in a perfectly consistent manner account for all the behaviour of other human beings using only physical terms such as quark, electron, gravity and electricity.
Of course, in practice I do no such thing. I recognize that such a description, whilst having specialized uses, does not do full justice to what I observe. There are certain contexts in which there is a need to switch to a more appropriate explanatory framework - one dealing in mental concepts such as thoughts, feelings, motivations, and so on. rather than in physical ones. There is a need to speak of a meeting of minds as well as an interaction between physical bodies. Unless we are able to switch naturally and effortlessly from one explanatory framework to the other, as the occasion demands, being prepared to supplement physical explanations with mental ones, much of the significance of what is going on around us would pass us by.
It is with such thoughts in mind we approach the question of religious belief. The religious believer accepts a need for a third explanatory framework - one that deals in spiritual entities, like God. As with the concepts associated with the physical and mental frameworks, those of the spiritual description refer to that which must remain hidden from direct observation.
Just as unseen gravity reveals itself through phenomena such as falling objects, and unseen minds reveal themselves through the physical movements of human bodies, so the unseen God reveals himself through the created world, through the lives of other people, and for Christians, pre-eminently through the life of Christ.
Jesus, in his response to Philip's request to be shown the Father, said: "Anyone who has seen me, has seen the Father". It is as though someone asked me, as a professional physicist, to be shown gravity, and I replied: "Anyone who has seen the comb fall, has seen gravity". Literally speaking, it is not true. But at a deeper level - a level at which one thinks of revelation through some mediating agency, rather than by direct apprehension - it is true.
Finally let me add that this recognition of the spiritual dimension is not simply a matter of gaining a deeper, more satisfying understanding of what is going on. Such a recognition alters one's behaviour, attitude, and quality of life.
Someone sensitively respecting other people's feelings, or those of animals, treats them differently to someone who regards them merely as physical objects.
In the same way, acceptance that we are spiritual beings, and children of the same Heavenly Father, brings about, in its own way, a reorientution of one's life and attitudes as profound and far-reaching.
The author is Professor of Physics at the Open University
THE TIMES SATURDAY AUGUST 23 1986
A matter of believing
Russell Stannard
Who does not sympathize with Philip, the disciple who asked Jesus to show him the Father? Or with Thomas who could not believe in the Resurrection until he had himself seen the risen Jesus? Seeing is believing. And particularly does that seem to be the case today where, under the influence of modern scientific thinking, we do not expect to have to believe in anything until we see the evidence for it.
But is it really true that scientists believe only what can be directly experienced? How about gravity? Release an object, a comb. say. and it falls to the ground. Why does it fall? Gravity. But we cannot see gravity — not gravity itself.
The reason we believe in it is that acceptance of the existence of gravity helps us to explain many of the phenomena that we do see: all falling objects (not just combs), the motions of the planets, and so on.
Pick up the comb and pass it through your hair. It is now capable of attracting and picking up a small piece of paper. How does it do it? Electricity. Can we see electricity? Once more the answer is no. Belief in electricity, like that in gravity, comes about because such an acceptance again allows us to explain a wide variety of phenomena that can be seen, whilst the cause itself, as before, remains unseen.
How about the composition of the comb — what is it made of? Quarks and electrons, the infinitesimally small constituents of atoms. Being so small, they too cannot be seen. Again we find ourselves believing in things that are not accessible to us directly.
This is not to deny that science is fundamentally rooted in careful observation of the world; to this extent seeing is indeed believing. But there is more to science than describing merely what is seen. Science seeks to go beyond appearances and explain what is observed. It is in doing this that it cannot help but make reference to that which, by its very nature, must remain unseen.
Science is not alone in this. Recently, turning over the soil in my garden, I inadvertently cut through a worm. Automatically I thought of it as being in pain. But was it really? Both sections of the unfortunate worm's body were writhing. Was I to conclude that both were in pain, the worm now having two minds? Or does a worm have no mind, no feelings? It is impossible to say. Minds, thoughts, feelings cannot be seen.
Indeed, if I am to be strictly accurate and pedantic. I cannot claim to know for certain that anyone. apart from myself, has mental experiences -and I don't just mean having doubts about the minds of animals. I could in a perfectly consistent manner account for all the behaviour of other human beings using only physical terms such as quark, electron, gravity and electricity.
Of course, in practice I do no such thing. I recognize that such a description, whilst having specialized uses, does not do full justice to what I observe. There are certain contexts in which there is a need to switch to a more appropriate explanatory framework - one dealing in mental concepts such as thoughts, feelings, motivations, and so on. rather than in physical ones. There is a need to speak of a meeting of minds as well as an interaction between physical bodies. Unless we are able to switch naturally and effortlessly from one explanatory framework to the other, as the occasion demands, being prepared to supplement physical explanations with mental ones, much of the significance of what is going on around us would pass us by.
It is with such thoughts in mind we approach the question of religious belief. The religious believer accepts a need for a third explanatory framework - one that deals in spiritual entities, like God. As with the concepts associated with the physical and mental frameworks, those of the spiritual description refer to that which must remain hidden from direct observation.
Just as unseen gravity reveals itself through phenomena such as falling objects, and unseen minds reveal themselves through the physical movements of human bodies, so the unseen God reveals himself through the created world, through the lives of other people, and for Christians, pre-eminently through the life of Christ.
Jesus, in his response to Philip's request to be shown the Father, said: "Anyone who has seen me, has seen the Father". It is as though someone asked me, as a professional physicist, to be shown gravity, and I replied: "Anyone who has seen the comb fall, has seen gravity". Literally speaking, it is not true. But at a deeper level - a level at which one thinks of revelation through some mediating agency, rather than by direct apprehension - it is true.
Finally let me add that this recognition of the spiritual dimension is not simply a matter of gaining a deeper, more satisfying understanding of what is going on. Such a recognition alters one's behaviour, attitude, and quality of life.
Someone sensitively respecting other people's feelings, or those of animals, treats them differently to someone who regards them merely as physical objects.
In the same way, acceptance that we are spiritual beings, and children of the same Heavenly Father, brings about, in its own way, a reorientution of one's life and attitudes as profound and far-reaching.
The author is Professor of Physics at the Open University
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thatwhichis
- Posts: 13
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kmaherali
Apologies, I don't get your response.
Is the article suppose to speak for you?
Is the article suppose to speak for you?
Re: kmaherali
It does not matter whether it speaks for me. It explains why believing is necessary.thatwhichis wrote:Apologies, I don't get your response.
Is the article suppose to speak for you?
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thatwhichis
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:29 pm
kmaherali
"It does not matter whether it speaks for me."
Why not, you posted this.
"It explains why believing is necessary."
Basically, you are saying belief is necessary for you, right?
You didn't need an article written by someone else to support your view.
Going further, if I may ask, why do you belief that believing is necessary? Please don't give us another article written by someone else. You matter to us. Your take on life is very important. You are the society. You are the world. You are part of it. You are important and what you say matters. We want to know your view. Let others speak for themselves. You can speak for yourself.
At the end of the day, you have to see the truth for yourself to see that which is.
Even if someone else has seen it, so what. Don't you want to see it for yourself?
Why not, you posted this.
"It explains why believing is necessary."
Basically, you are saying belief is necessary for you, right?
You didn't need an article written by someone else to support your view.
Going further, if I may ask, why do you belief that believing is necessary? Please don't give us another article written by someone else. You matter to us. Your take on life is very important. You are the society. You are the world. You are part of it. You are important and what you say matters. We want to know your view. Let others speak for themselves. You can speak for yourself.
At the end of the day, you have to see the truth for yourself to see that which is.
Even if someone else has seen it, so what. Don't you want to see it for yourself?
Re: kmaherali
If an astronaut from space told you what he saw, wouldn't you accept it? It is not possible for everyone to go to space.thatwhichis wrote: At the end of the day, you have to see the truth for yourself to see that which is.
Even if someone else has seen it, so what. Don't you want to see it for yourself?
If a wise and learned person explains to you based on logic, wouldn't you accept it? Your question requires explanation and not observation.
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thatwhichis
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:29 pm
I am not sure where you are going with this. I am just trying to learn via inquiry.
"If an astronaut from space told you what he saw, wouldn't you accept it? It is not possible for everyone to go to space."
What does this have anything to do with belief? If a astronaut saw something, good for him. On the other hand, are you trying to say that it is not possible for you to see that which is? meaning you can't go to the space? I am confused. Please go slow and use simple terms.
"If a wise and learned person explains to you based on logic, wouldn't you accept it? Your question requires explanation and not observation."
Accept what. If it is the truth, whether I accept or not, makes no difference. Truth remains truth, no matter what. Isn't that right?
"If an astronaut from space told you what he saw, wouldn't you accept it? It is not possible for everyone to go to space."
What does this have anything to do with belief? If a astronaut saw something, good for him. On the other hand, are you trying to say that it is not possible for you to see that which is? meaning you can't go to the space? I am confused. Please go slow and use simple terms.
"If a wise and learned person explains to you based on logic, wouldn't you accept it? Your question requires explanation and not observation."
Accept what. If it is the truth, whether I accept or not, makes no difference. Truth remains truth, no matter what. Isn't that right?
Here is a section dedicated to thatwhichis. Please put all your questions in this thread. In any case they all are the same even though you seems to think they are different questions. Do not flood the Forum. Consider this section as your own personal blog where you can post within the limits of the rules of postings of this Forum. Thanks
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Admin
Facts are non-cultural. A fact exists regardless of who does or doesn't believe it. So a Muslim scientist and a Jewish scientist and a Buddhist scientist are all eventually going to come to the same conclusions as an atheist scientist or a Christian scientist.
Beliefs are inherently cultural. They vary from person to person, tribe to tribe, nation to nation, religion to religion. A belief does not exist outside of the believer. So while a Christian may believe that Jesus was resurrected, a Jew does not.
We believe that on the earth's surface, an apple will always fall down. Falling of an apple is a fact and this fact turns into belief because seeing a fact is believing.
Beliefs are inherently cultural. They vary from person to person, tribe to tribe, nation to nation, religion to religion. A belief does not exist outside of the believer. So while a Christian may believe that Jesus was resurrected, a Jew does not.
We believe that on the earth's surface, an apple will always fall down. Falling of an apple is a fact and this fact turns into belief because seeing a fact is believing.
I was a science student and know gravity well.I gave example of falling apple as a fact turning into belief, are you satisfied.kmaherali wrote:You don't see gravity which caused it to fall. Would you believe in gravity or not?swamidada wrote: We believe that on the earth's surface, an apple will always fall down. Falling of an apple is a fact and this fact turns into belief because seeing a fact is believing.
If you can see the apple falling down it is not a belief any more. It is a fact. However the existence of gravity which causes it to fall is a belief since we cannot see gravity.swamidada wrote: I was a science student and know gravity well.I gave example of falling apple as a fact turning into belief, are you satisfied.
What explanation I gave you suggested the same. I wrote,"falling apple is a fact turning to belief", and you suggested ,"the existence of gravity which causes it to fall is a belief". The word gravity was coined by Issac Newton but apple was falling down since time of Adam. This is a general physical law derived from empirical observations by what Isaac Newton called inductive reasoning.kmaherali wrote:If you can see the apple falling down it is not a belief any more. It is a fact. However the existence of gravity which causes it to fall is a belief since we cannot see gravity.swamidada wrote: I was a science student and know gravity well.I gave example of falling apple as a fact turning into belief, are you satisfied.
A fact remains a fact, it does not change to belief. An apple always falls down and it is observable by everyone, hence it is a fact that everyone agrees upon.swamidada wrote: I wrote,"falling apple is a fact turning to belief", and you suggested ,"the existence of gravity which causes it to fall is a belief".
Gravity is not a fact but a belief based on the fact that it explains many phenomena.
Did you read the article I posted earlier in this thread?
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thatwhichis2
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- Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:30 am
"A fact exists regardless of who does or doesn't believe it. So a Muslim scientist and a Jewish scientist and a Buddhist scientist are all eventually going to come to the same conclusions as an atheist scientist or a Christian scientist. Beliefs are inherently cultural. They vary from person to person, tribe to tribe, nation to nation, religion to religion. A belief does not exist outside of the believer. So while a Christian may believe that Jesus was resurrected, a Jew does not."
I can see that. I wonder who else here can see this statement.
If I may ask, (swamidada) is belief necessary?
I can see that. I wonder who else here can see this statement.
If I may ask, (swamidada) is belief necessary?
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thatwhichis2
- Posts: 5
- Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:30 am
Admin
I wasn't able to log-in via my original userid: thatwhichis and as such I created another userid: thatwhichis2.
I am not sure if you deleted my account. If you did and don't want me to contribute to this site, then just let me directly. You have my email address.
Let those individuals who want to see for themselves, see thatwhichis.
Let the individuals speak their mind. It doesn't seem that anyone here is being unreasonable or disrespectful in their conversations.
Limit your admin powers to when they are necessary. Don't delete post or accounts just because you don't agree with them.
I am not sure if you deleted my account. If you did and don't want me to contribute to this site, then just let me directly. You have my email address.
Let those individuals who want to see for themselves, see thatwhichis.
Let the individuals speak their mind. It doesn't seem that anyone here is being unreasonable or disrespectful in their conversations.
Limit your admin powers to when they are necessary. Don't delete post or accounts just because you don't agree with them.
Re: Admin
You asked your account to be delete if Admin did not want to put back your deleted posting. Now please do not complaint about your request thatwhichis fulfilled and stop opening accounts.thatwhichis2 wrote:Limit your admin powers to when they are necessary. Don't delete post or accounts just because you don't agree with them.
Is belief necessary? You asked. In my opinion it depends upon parent's initial teachings, the society and environment in which you live or brought up. If you are an atheist means it is your belief there is no God.thatwhichis2 wrote:"A fact exists regardless of who does or doesn't believe it. So a Muslim scientist and a Jewish scientist and a Buddhist scientist are all eventually going to come to the same conclusions as an atheist scientist or a Christian scientist. Beliefs are inherently cultural. They vary from person to person, tribe to tribe, nation to nation, religion to religion. A belief does not exist outside of the believer. So while a Christian may believe that Jesus was resurrected, a Jew does not."
I can see that. I wonder who else here can see this statement.
If I may ask, (swamidada) is belief necessary?
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mahebubchatur
- Posts: 734
- Joined: Mon Jan 13, 2014 7:01 pm
Is belief Necessary - Only “Facts “
.thatwhichis wrote:This is a serious question for those who wish to engage in an open-minded talk. A talk with a free mind. A free mind being that which is not conditioned by anything or anyone. A free mind that wants to see for him/herself that which is.
Request that you only post facts (Fyi, fact is not a belief. Example of a belief: Bible is the word of God - this is a belief and not a fact. Example of a Fact in our daily lives: A gasoline car needs gas to run on). Please don't share your beliefs or opinions in this post as we want to see the fact, that which is, reality. The Reality is not a belief. We are not concerned with anyone's beliefs and/or opinions. Beliefs and opinions seem to divide humanity. Let's try to focus on the facts and see if we, for ourselves can see that which is.
I wonder if a free mind is a mind that has pre-conditioned conclusions. If you think a free mind is a mind with no conclusion at all, please take the request of not posting your beliefs and opinions here seriously. A free mind is open to explore, examine, inquire without any pre-conceived beliefs, ideas, etc. and without any fear.
Belief means “something that is accepted, considered to be true, or held as an opinion “ Do you agree ?
Beliefs come or manifest from facts. In this context What came to my mind was the following by #AgaKhan - Imam
“we live in a “post-fact” society. Yes, a post-fact society. It’s not just that everyone feels entitled to his or her own opinion – that’s a good thing. But the problem comes when people feel they are entitled to their own facts. What is true, too often, can then depend not on what actually happened, but on whose side you are. Our search for the truth can then become less important than our allegiance to a cause – an ideology, for example, or a political party, or a tribal or religious identity, or a pro-government or opposition outlook. And so publics all over the world can begin to fragment, and societies can drift into deadlock...” (Aga Khan - 2016.
Fact - This statement is by Him.
Fact - This is his opinion or belief
Fact - his opinion is based on his knowledge and lived experience of many related facts and The Intellect
My opinion or belief is the same from my everyday interactions and lived experience and knowledge. Therefore my belief or opinion is a combination of using facts, lived experience, knowledge and intellect (which are all an inclusive part of the Ismaili Muslim faith which is inclusive - Din-Dunya.
I am a bit confused. Can you please explain what conversation you wish to have on this post/section under the main subject heading of doctrines ?
I cannot see or understand what conversation can there be by simply “stating facts” without the related or specific subject areas, & related context, issues, concerns needs opinions. etc - Even philosophically or a generalised discourse. #Ismaili.
Re: Is belief Necessary - Only “Facts “
In my opinion belief vs fact sounds like which was first hen or an egg. It is not necessary that beliefs manifest from facts. Facts and beliefs go side by side. An atheist says there is no God. For him God is not a fact but when he says there is no God this is his belief.mahebubchatur wrote:.thatwhichis wrote:This is a serious question for those who wish to engage in an open-minded talk. A talk with a free mind. A free mind being that which is not conditioned by anything or anyone. A free mind that wants to see for him/herself that which is.
Request that you only post facts (Fyi, fact is not a belief. Example of a belief: Bible is the word of God - this is a belief and not a fact. Example of a Fact in our daily lives: A gasoline car needs gas to run on). Please don't share your beliefs or opinions in this post as we want to see the fact, that which is, reality. The Reality is not a belief. We are not concerned with anyone's beliefs and/or opinions. Beliefs and opinions seem to divide humanity. Let's try to focus on the facts and see if we, for ourselves can see that which is.
I wonder if a free mind is a mind that has pre-conditioned conclusions. If you think a free mind is a mind with no conclusion at all, please take the request of not posting your beliefs and opinions here seriously. A free mind is open to explore, examine, inquire without any pre-conceived beliefs, ideas, etc. and without any fear.
Beliefs come or manifest from facts.