can humans BE God?

swamidada_2 · Post by **swamidada_2** » Sat Jun 27, 2020 9:19 pm

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: The quatrain quoted from Kalam e Mowla confirm Allah is Supreme. According to Surah Ikhlas, there is no one like Him in universe. Also this quatrain mentions the concept of Ham e Ost.
Yes there is no denying that Allah is Supreme. However he can be experienced and known by extra ordinary means attained through spiritual enlightenment.

MSMS says in his Memoirs:

lbn-Rushd, the great Muslim philosopher, known to Europe as Averroes, established clearly the great distinction between two kinds of apprehensible human experience : on the one hand, our experience of nature as we recognize it through our senses, whence comes our capacity to measure and to count (and with that capacity all that it brought in the way of new events and new explanations); and on the other hand, our immediate and imminent experience of something more real, less dependent on thought or on the processes of the mind, but directly given to us, which I believe to be religious experience. Naturally, since our brain is material, and its processes and all the consequences of its processes are material, the moment that we put either thought or spiritual experience into words, this material basis of the brain must give a material presentation to even the highest, most transcendent spiritual experience. But men can study objectively the direct and subjective experiences of those who have had spiritual enlightenment without material intervention.

It is said that we live, move and have our being in God. We find this concept expressed often in the Koran, not in those words of course, but just as beautifully and more tersely. But when we realize the meaning of this saying, we are already preparing ourselves for the gift of the power of direct experience. Roumi and Hafiz, the great Persian poets, have told us, each in his different way, that some men are born with such natural spiritual capacities and possibilities of development that they have direct experience of that great love, that all-embracing, all-consuming love, which direct contact with reality gives to the human soil. Hafiz indeed has said that men like Jesus Christ and Muslim mystics like Mansour and Bayezid and others have possessed that spiritual power of the greater love; that any of us, if the Holy Spirit (*) ever present grants us that enlightenment, can, being thus blessed, have the power which Christ had, but that to the overwhelming majority of men this greater love is not a practical possibility.

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

The creation can not claim to be Allah, the owner of Universe. The paragraphs you mentioned from Memoirs do not claim that a human can call him self Allah. The spiritual power of greater love for Allah grants enlightenment, but does not allow to cross limits and claim him self Lord of Universe.

In the second paragraph as mentioned in Memoirs, it looks MSMS believed in the concept of 'HAM E OST' as he wrote,"It is said that we live, move and have our being in God. We find this concept expressed often in the Koran, not in those words of course, but just as beautifully and more tersely". It shows Ismailis do believe in the concept of HAM E OST (all is HE, nothing outside HIM).

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Jun 28, 2020 9:42 am

swamidada wrote:The creation can not claim to be Allah, the owner of Universe. The paragraphs you mentioned from Memoirs do not claim that a human can call him self Allah. The spiritual power of greater love for Allah grants enlightenment, but does not allow to cross limits and claim him self Lord of Universe.

In his Usul e Din MSMS says:

"Those who have only superficial knowledge of the faith, have fantastic notions about me. They believe that my job is to heal the sick. This is not my task. My task is to show you the way to the Truth, so that you may achieve your real destiny, which is the state of FANAFILLAH. "Fana" stands for annihilation, "Fi" meaning in, and "Allah" being God. To be FANAFILLAH is to lose oneself in the essence of God.

You must keep on asking yourself: "What is God and why cannot I become one with Him?" You should have such aspirations, and you should meditate over what I am saying. For instance, Jesus became one with God. He was in love with the HAQIQAT. As a result, his nature became united with that of God."

One must not claim to be God lest he be met with the fate of Mansoor al-Hallaj. However he can attain the state of being one with God as explained by the Imam in the above Farman.

swamidada wrote: It shows Ismailis do believe in the concept of HAM E OST (all is HE, nothing outside HIM).

Yes, in the state of Fanna Fi Allah man actually experiences that all is He indeed - that he can call himself He!

swamidada_2 · Post by **swamidada_2** » Mon Jun 29, 2020 9:16 pm

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:The creation can not claim to be Allah, the owner of Universe. The paragraphs you mentioned from Memoirs do not claim that a human can call him self Allah. The spiritual power of greater love for Allah grants enlightenment, but does not allow to cross limits and claim him self Lord of Universe.
In his Usul e Din MSMS says:

"Those who have only superficial knowledge of the faith, have fantastic notions about me. They believe that my job is to heal the sick. This is not my task. My task is to show you the way to the Truth, so that you may achieve your real destiny, which is the state of FANAFILLAH. "Fana" stands for annihilation, "Fi" meaning in, and "Allah" being God. To be FANAFILLAH is to lose oneself in the essence of God.

You must keep on asking yourself: "What is God and why cannot I become one with Him?" You should have such aspirations, and you should meditate over what I am saying. For instance, Jesus became one with God. He was in love with the HAQIQAT. As a result, his nature became united with that of God."

Points to be noted are:
In the Farman mentioned by you, MSMS said his job is not to heal sick but to show the real path of fana fi Allah so that one should merge with essence of God. No where in this Farman Imam said that after union with God adept can claim to be Allah. How come a particle of dust call itself mountain?

Did Prophet Essa ever claimed to be God? According to Quran, when he was requested to give life to a dead, he said,"QUM BI IZNILLAH".

You wrote: "Yes, in the state of Fanna Fi Allah man actually experiences that all is He indeed - that he can call himself He!".
By thinking all is He, is imagination of adept. A real momin when achieve the status of real fana will never claim to be Allah because he is a humble slave (Bunda) and not master of Universe.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:40 am

swamidada wrote:No where in this Farman Imam said that after union with God adept can claim to be Allah. How come a particle of dust call itself mountain?

Did Prophet Essa ever claimed to be God? According to Quran, when he was requested to give life to a dead, he said,"QUM BI IZNILLAH".

You wrote: "Yes, in the state of Fanna Fi Allah man actually experiences that all is He indeed - that he can call himself He!".
By thinking all is He, is imagination of adept. A real momin when achieve the status of real fana will never claim to be Allah because he is a humble slave (Bunda) and not master of Universe.

As I mentioned before, one who has attained Fanna Fi Allah should never claim to be God. The notion of man becoming God is an esoteric concept and it should not be announced in an exoteric context.

This does not mean that man cannot become God. He can and that is the object of an esoteric tradition. Dust becomes the Mountain. Drop becomes the Ocean.

Post by **Admin** » Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:59 pm

Actually the first thing to do is to identify what "man" means. Than identify what "God" means. These words mean different things to different people therefore a debate of deafs.

If one consider that man is the external body, obviously man can never be God. If one consider that man means the divine sparks inside the body, it becomes all together something completely different.

swamidada_2 · Post by **swamidada_2** » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:45 pm

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:No where in this Farman Imam said that after union with God adept can claim to be Allah. How come a particle of dust call itself mountain?

Did Prophet Essa ever claimed to be God? According to Quran, when he was requested to give life to a dead, he said,"QUM BI IZNILLAH".

You wrote: "Yes, in the state of Fanna Fi Allah man actually experiences that all is He indeed - that he can call himself He!".
By thinking all is He, is imagination of adept. A real momin when achieve the status of real fana will never claim to be Allah because he is a humble slave (Bunda) and not master of Universe.
As I mentioned before, one who has attained Fanna Fi Allah should never claim to be God. The notion of man becoming God is an esoteric concept and it should not be announced in an exoteric context.

There are two portions of your answer. The first portion is in my favor as you wrote, I quote,"...one who has attained fana fi Allah should NEVER claim to be God".
In other portion you wrote," The notion of man becoming God is an esoteric concept and it should not be announced in an exoteric context". Then what about Al Hallaj? But he claimed EXOTERICALLY!!

swamidada_2 · Post by **swamidada_2** » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:54 pm

Admin wrote: If one consider that man is the external body, obviously man can never be God. If one consider that man means the divine sparks inside the body, it becomes all together something completely different.

Hmm, something completely different, but a man can not claim to be God. Did Jesus Christ claimed to be God though there was divine spark inside his body!

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:34 am

swamidada wrote: Then what about Al Hallaj? But he claimed EXOTERICALLY!!

That is why he was martyred! The shariatis around him could not understand him. Hence MHI tells us not to reveal your inner attainments because you will be misunderstood.There is a verse in a Ginan which states:

ejee gat re sarovar maa(n)he jheelataa(n),

motee amulak laadhaa jee;

jatan kareene motee raakhajo,

to mul adhakeraa aave;

sat samajeene rahee-e,

avar dujaa ne naa kahee-e....................................2

O community, by bathing in the lake, precious pearls are found. Make efforts to guard those pearls, then an abundant price will be gained. Dwell in understanding of the truth, but do not disclose it to others.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23131

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:40 am

Admin wrote:If one consider that man is the external body, obviously man can never be God. If one consider that man means the divine sparks inside the body, it becomes all together something completely different.

Absolutely, that is the key. Verses of Abadu Ginan state:

abdhu ghatt maa(n)he reedh seedh hay, ane ghatt maa(n)he anhad chaalaa;
ghatt maa(n)he bhaag lagaayaa baabu, ghattmaa(n)he see(n)chann
haaraa abdhu.......................................................................19

O slave! the real prosperity and success is in the heart (interior), and there are unlimited movements in the heart. In the heart is the garden of fortune,
brother, and in the heart is the waterer(of mercy).

abdhu ghattmaa(n)he navkha(n)d peerodhamee, ane ghattmaa(n)he hay kevalaasaa;
ghattmaa(n)he saat samuddhra kaa vaasaa, gur beenaa jaay peeyaasaa abdhu.........................20

kevalaas - one of the peaks of the Himalayas

O slave! in the heart is the expanse of the earth with nine continents, and in the heart is one of the peaks of the Himalays(the entire creation encompassing the horizontal and vertical limits is in the heart). The heart is the place of the seven seas(of mercy), but without the Guide one goes thirsty(the Guide opens the doors to the seven oceans(heavens)).

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22813

swamidada_2 · Post by **swamidada_2** » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:08 pm

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: Then what about Al Hallaj? But he claimed EXOTERICALLY!!
That is why he was martyred! The shariatis around him could not understand him. Hence MHI tells us not to reveal your inner attainments because you will be misunderstood.

Can you mention when, where, and in what year Imam made this Farman? I have heard in waizes, Imam's guidance is to explain our Tariqah to non Ismailis.

You quoted a part of Ginan, please ponder at the following line:
'jatan kareene motee raakhajo', I do not understand what pearls have to do with fan fi Allah and claim to be God. There is no mention of fana in this part of Ginan. As per your habit you will say, oh look here pearls has esoteric meaning. But in last lines your translation says,".... do not tell about these pearls otherwise these can be stolen, where as Imam says be open to non Ismail audiences about our Religion and Tariqa.

swamidada_2 · Post by **swamidada_2** » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:35 pm

kmaherali wrote:
Admin wrote:If one consider that man is the external body, obviously man can never be God. If one consider that man means the divine sparks inside the body, it becomes all together something completely different.
Absolutely, that is the key. Verses of Abadu Ginan state:

abdhu ghatt maa(n)he reedh seedh hay, ane ghatt maa(n)he anhad chaalaa;
ghatt maa(n)he bhaag lagaayaa baabu, ghattmaa(n)he see(n)chann
haaraa abdhu.......................................................................19

O slave! the real prosperity and success is in the heart (interior), and there are unlimited movements in the heart. In the heart is the garden of fortune,
brother, and in the heart is the waterer(of mercy).

abdhu ghattmaa(n)he navkha(n)d peerodhamee, ane ghattmaa(n)he hay kevalaasaa;
ghattmaa(n)he saat samuddhra kaa vaasaa, gur beenaa jaay peeyaasaa abdhu.........................20

kevalaas - one of the peaks of the Himalayas

O slave! in the heart is the expanse of the earth with nine continents, and in the heart is one of the peaks of the Himalays(the entire creation encompassing the horizontal and vertical limits is in the heart). The heart is the place of the seven seas(of mercy), but without the Guide one goes thirsty(the Guide opens the doors to the seven oceans(heavens)).

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22813

You should have written few words about my Jesus Christ inquiry, i.e;
"Hmm, something completely different, but a man can not claim to be God. Did Jesus Christ claimed to be God though there was divine spark inside his body!"
In above 2 parts of Abdhu Ginan there is mention of love in heart deeper than seas and higher than Himalayas. Again there is no mention of fana fi Allah in these 2 parts.
Let us examine the word 'RIDAE', does this means heart the blood pumping machine? Ridae as I understand is QALB as used in Quran. the word Qalb is Bamargufa which is in forehead. Immense love belong to brain faculty and is wired to soul.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:08 am

swamidada wrote: Can you mention when, where, and in what year Imam made this Farman? I have heard in waizes, Imam's guidance is to explain our Tariqah to non Ismailis.

London UK 1994 Baitul Khayal

The second point I would make to you is that, if you are successful in finding that Light, you will be certain of it. There will be no doubt in your mind that you have found that Light, that you have found spiritual happiness and elevation. It may be a second, it may be a millionth of a second, but you will know that you have succeeded. Because this is an individual spiritual matter, there is no point trying to explain it to others. If you have been successful, that is a blessing to each of you individually, who has been successful. But there is no point in rising, and saying to others, “Today I have found happiness,” because this is a spiritual matter, not a material matter. Keep that to yourselves, keep that happiness to yourselves; let it give you strength. It is yours; nobody else’s, and therefore, you have entire right to that happiness, to that moment of elevation. And I think it is important that you should understand that we are talking about the spirit, the soul, we are not talking about human relations; we are not talking about worldly relations, we are talking about sitting in Bandagi and seeking spiritual elevation.

swamidada wrote: You quoted a part of Ginan, please ponder at the following line:
'jatan kareene motee raakhajo', I do not understand what pearls have to do with fan fi Allah and claim to be God. There is no mention of fana in this part of Ginan. As per your habit you will say, oh look here pearls has esoteric meaning. But in last lines your translation says,".... do not tell about these pearls otherwise these can be stolen, where as Imam says be open to non Ismail audiences about our Religion and Tariqa.

Fana Fi Allah does not happen suddenly. You have to prepare yourself for it. You have to acquire knowledge and wisdom first of all to establish conviction about what you are seeking. For example you need to be sure that you are a soul and not a body, that the soul can be elevated to God. These are 'pearls' which prepare you for Fana Fi Allah.

There are matters of faith that we can discuss with others. There are matters of faith that we cannot discuss with others. That is the reason for having mandlis were only members have access to what happens within them. This is true of any mystical tradition

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:45 am

swamidada wrote:Let us examine the word 'RIDAE', does this means heart the blood pumping machine? Ridae as I understand is QALB as used in Quran. the word Qalb is Bamargufa which is in forehead. Immense love belong to brain faculty and is wired to soul.

Ridae or dil is the seat of the soul. It is not the physical heart as per verse of Saloko moto:

satgur kahere: deelmaa(n)he deval pujee-e
ane deelmaa(n)he dev duvaar
deelmaa(n)he saa(n)yaa aape vase
ane deelmaa(n)he aape deedaar....................1

The True Guide says: Worship the Lord in the heart (the kernel of existence), and in the heart is the abode of the Lord. In your heart the Lord resides, and in the heart He bestows His Vision.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:10 pm

swamidada wrote: Hmm, something completely different, but a man can not claim to be God. Did Jesus Christ claimed to be God though there was divine spark inside his body!

As I said before a man should not claim to be God as per Farman of the Imam. However he can become God even though he may not claim to be God. There is a difference between being God and claiming to be God.

The spark does not remain a spark but grows developed as per MSMS's message in his Memoirs:

A man who does not marry, who refuses to shoulder the responsibilities of fatherhood, of building up a home and raising a family through marriage, is severely condemned. In Islam there are no extreme renunciations, no asceticism, no maceration, above all no flagellations to subjugate the body. The healthy human body is the temple in which the flame of the Holy Spirit burns, and thus it deserves the respect of scrupulous cleanliness and personal hygiene. Prayer is a daily necessity, a direct communication of the spark with the Universal flame. Reasonable fasting for a month in every year, provided a man's health is not impaired thereby, is an essential part of the body's discipline-through which the body learns to renounce all impure desires. Adultery, alcoholism, slander and thinking evil of one's neighbour are specifically and severely condemned. All men, rich and poor, must aid one another materially and personally. The rules vary in detail, but they all maintain the principle of universal mutual aid in the Muslim fraternity. This fraternity is absolute, and it comprises men of all colours and all races: black, white, yellow, tawny; all are the sons of Adam in the flesh and all carry in them spark of the Divine Light. Everyone should strive his best to see that this spark be not extinguished but rather developed to that full "Companionship- on-High" which was the vision expressed in the last words of the Prophet on his deathbed, the vision of that blessed state which he saw clearly awaiting him. In Islam the Faithful believe in Divine justice and are convinced that the solution of the great problem of predestination and free will is to be found in the compromise that God knows what man is going to do, but that man is free to do it or not.

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

swamidada_2 · Post by **swamidada_2** » Thu Jul 02, 2020 8:52 pm

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: Hmm, something completely different, but a man can not claim to be God. Did Jesus Christ claimed to be God though there was divine spark inside his body!
As I said before a man should not claim to be God as per Farman of the Imam. However he can become God even though he may not claim to be God. There is a difference between being God and claiming to be God.

You are contradicting your statement. In one sigh you quoted a Farman and wrote, "a man should not claim to be God as per Farman", and in other sigh you are insisting,"however he can become God even though he may not claim". You have to decide in between Farman and your opinion. Let me ask a question (though I feel awkward to ask this question), for example kmaherali is fana in Imam e Zamaan, will kmaherali claim he is Imam e Zamaan?

swamidada_2 · Post by **swamidada_2** » Thu Jul 02, 2020 9:26 pm

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: Can you mention when, where, and in what year Imam made this Farman? I have heard in waizes, Imam's guidance is to explain our Tariqah to non Ismailis.
London UK 1994 Baitul Khayal

The second point I would make to you is that, if you are successful in finding that Light, you will be certain of it. There will be no doubt in your mind that you have found that Light, that you have found spiritual happiness and elevation. It may be a second, it may be a millionth of a second, but you will know that you have succeeded. Because this is an individual spiritual matter, there is no point trying to explain it to others. If you have been successful, that is a blessing to each of you individually, who has been successful. But there is no point in rising, and saying to others, “Today I have found happiness,” because this is a spiritual matter, not a material matter. Keep that to yourselves, keep that happiness to yourselves; let it give you strength. It is yours; nobody else’s, and therefore, you have entire right to that happiness, to that moment of elevation. And I think it is important that you should understand that we are talking about the spirit, the soul, we are not talking about human relations; we are not talking about worldly relations, we are talking about sitting in Bandagi and seeking spiritual elevation.

There are matters of faith that we can discuss with others. There are matters of faith that we cannot discuss with others. That is the reason for having mandlis were only members have access to what happens within them. This is true of any mystical tradition

No doubt spiritual search is a personal matter and discipline of BK does not allow to discuss Bol or achievements with others. The Farman you quoted of 1994 mentions the spiritual happiness, the happiness i.e is AANAND which is not comparable with worldly happiness.

You wrote:
"There are matters of faith that we can discuss with others. There are matters of faith that we cannot discuss with others. That is the reason for having mandlis were only members have access to what happens within them. This is true of any mystical tradition".
I am a member of many mundilis. Past many years there aren't any waizes or a kind of discussions to explain the esoteric understanding of these particular majalis. If a non Ismaili ask you a question or want to discuss esoteric matters with you, what will be your reply. May be, oh my friend I can not discuss this matter with you because our Imam ask us not to. The person will be more suspicious and will carry negative effect about Ismailism. My question has always been, Why to hide?!!

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:47 am

swamidada wrote:[You are contradicting your statement. In one sigh you quoted a Farman and wrote, "a man should not claim to be God as per Farman", and in other sigh you are insisting,"however he can become God even though he may not claim". You have to decide in between Farman and your opinion. Let me ask a question (though I feel awkward to ask this question), for example kmaherali is fana in Imam e Zamaan, will kmaherali claim he is Imam e Zamaan?

There is no contradiction. You can be Fan Fi Allah without claiming to be one. To be Fana Fi Allah is an esoteric matter. To claim to be one is an exoteric matter.

I will never claim to be Fana. That is against the present Farman.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:58 am

swamidada wrote:[I am a member of many mundilis. Past many years there aren't any waizes or a kind of discussions to explain the esoteric understanding of these particular majalis. If a non Ismaili ask you a question or want to discuss esoteric matters with you, what will be your reply. May be, oh my friend I can not discuss this matter with you because our Imam ask us not to. The person will be more suspicious and will carry negative effect about Ismailism. My question has always been, Why to hide?!!

The Farmans in the Mandlis are very comprehensive and usually do not require further explanation.

In discussing matters with others you have to use your own judgment. You have to ask yourself: what is the intention of the person seeking information. Is he seeking to gain understanding or for other reasons. If he is a man of understanding and you tell him that in esoteric tradition there are certain matters that are not for public, he will understand. On the other hand if he is not a man of understanding there is no point in wasting time.

swamidada_2 · Post by **swamidada_2** » Sat Jul 04, 2020 9:12 pm

The veracity of those who profess Tawheed is confirmed when they attest that He cannot be expressed neither by an outward speech, nor by an interior thought. How could letters refer to an entity that brings into existence all things created, emanated and produced?
Hamiduddin Al Kirmani; Rahtul Aql,145.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 10:19 am

swamidada wrote:The veracity of those who profess Tawheed is confirmed when they attest that He cannot be expressed neither by an outward speech, nor by an interior thought. How could letters refer to an entity that brings into existence all things created, emanated and produced?
Hamiduddin Al Kirmani; Rahtul Aql,145.

Yes He is beyond description and thought but can be experienced through extra ordinary means as per verses of the Ginan: Sakhi Mahapad Keri Vaat at:

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23118

sakhee ved kitaab maa(n)he ke e gam naahee re
tee-aa(n) nahee divas nahee raat ke dhup na chhaa(n)i re.........11

O beloved ones, the description or the experience is not given in the vedas
(scriptures) or in any books because in this state there is neither day nor
night nor sun nor shade. (In other words this experience is
beyond intellect and hence indescribable.)

sakhee kahevaa sareekho nathee ke maaro saamee jee re
eto jovaa sareekho chhe alakh anaamee re.........................12

O beloved ones, my Lord (attained through this experience) does
not bear any telling (as He is indescribable) and He is nameless.
He can only be seen or experienced.

sakhee alakh anaamee saaheb laagyaa mitthaa re
bhanne peer sadardeen shaah, me najare deetthaa re...............13

O beloved ones, this nameless and indescribable Lord was felt to
be very sweet to me. Peer Sadardeen teaches this ginaan and says:
"I have seen the Lord with my own eyes".

swamidada_2 · Post by **swamidada_2** » Sun Jul 05, 2020 8:57 pm

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:The veracity of those who profess Tawheed is confirmed when they attest that He cannot be expressed neither by an outward speech, nor by an interior thought. How could letters refer to an entity that brings into existence all things created, emanated and produced?
Hamiduddin Al Kirmani; Rahtul Aql,145.
Yes He is beyond description and thought but can be experienced through extra ordinary means as per verses of the Ginan: Sakhi Mahapad Keri Vaat at:

sakhee alakh anaamee saaheb laagyaa mitthaa re
bhanne peer sadardeen shaah, me najare deetthaa re...............13

O beloved ones, this nameless and indescribable Lord was felt to
be very sweet to me. Peer Sadardeen teaches this ginaan and says:
"I have seen the Lord with my own eyes".

DHUBKI LEY LEY GHOTHA KHAVEY
PIR PAIGAMBAR TOEY NA PAAVEY

Pir Sadardin

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Jul 06, 2020 9:54 am

swamidada wrote: DHUBKI LEY LEY GHOTHA KHAVEY
PIR PAIGAMBAR TOEY NA PAAVEY

Pir Sadardin

In the same Buj Niranjan part 32 it is stated:

jab mae(n) darashan dekhu(n) teraa
sab dukh bisare chitathee meraa...................................3

When I have the experience of Your Didaar, all the sorrows will leave my mind.

sukh upaje man gane ganeraa
laalan karo hamaare yahaa(n) feraa................................4

I know I'll experience eternal bliss if only You would come to me -come to me and complete my evolutionary cycle.

ab ke ma(n)e jo saajan paau(n)
haydde a(n)dar sej bichhaau(n)....................................5

If I now attain the Lord, I will lay a bed for Him in my heart.(so that He may stay there for ever)

meelu(n) useeke nur sa(n)gaath
fir dusarekaa nav jaalu(n) haath..................................6

I will be one with His noor, and thereafter I'll never have to hold anyone else's hand(or care for anyone else).

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/23011

swamidada_2 · Post by **swamidada_2** » Wed Jul 08, 2020 9:16 pm

Let me quote complete part 32 of Bhuj Nirinjin by Pir Sadardin and remind you couple of your views about Bhuj. While discussing Bhuj with me you admitted that 'THIS IS NOT A GINAN' and is written by some non Ismaili Sufi. Your other assertion was that if Pir Sadardin had written it should not have gone against Satpunth concepts. You also denied 'DHUBI LEY LEY GHOTHA KHAVEY, PIR PAIGAMBER TOIE NA PAAVEY'.

Bhuj Nirinjin by Pir Sadardin

PART THIRTY TWO

saajan par hu(n) sadaa balhaaree
jeene saajan mohe nipatt bisaaree.................................1

I am forever enslaved to my Lord but He seems not to care about me.

nisadin nenu(n) laagee taaree
kabuek aave hamaaree vaaree.......................................2

Day and night my eyes are turned towards you; when will it be my turn for that Vision?

jab mae(n) darashan dekhu(n) teraa
sab dukh bisare chitathee meraa...................................3

When I have the experience of Your Didaar, all the sorrows will leave my mind.

sukh upaje man gane ganeraa
laalan karo hamaare yahaa(n) feraa................................4

I know I'll experience eternal bliss if only You would come to me -come to me and complete my evolutionary cycle.

ab ke ma(n)e jo saajan paau(n)
haydde a(n)dar sej bichhaau(n)....................................5

If I now attain the Lord, I will lay a bed for Him in my heart.(so that He may stay there for ever)

meelu(n) useeke nur sa(n)gaath
fir dusarekaa nav jaalu(n) haath..................................6

I will be one with His noor, and thereafter I'll never have to hold anyone else's hand(or care for anyone else).

hayddu(n) talapee maaree maaree
kahaa(n) sahu(n) e dukh hae bhaaree...............................7

You can see, my Lord, my heart is in turmoil, how can I bear this sorrow?

darshan dikhaao swaamee pyaare
vireh bhukh tihaaree maare........................................8

Give me Your Deedaar, o my loving Lord so that the hunger(and doubts) felt during the separation may vanish.

dilake a(n)dar dau(n) utaaree
saajan tum par jaau(n) balhaaree..................................9

I will lock You in my heart and forever remain your slave.

re tu(n)hee, ...
darashan deeyo shaahjee
sudh budh gaee haraae re
preetam paas bulaae ham
gaee sudh leeho aaere......................................XXXII

O You, ... O Lord, grant me Your vision(deedar), for I have lost awareness and intelligence. When the Beloved calls me at His place, I will regain all my awareness and intelligence.

Variant: Please grant me your didar for you know how I feel; my mind and my intellect are no longer mine, O my love call me and do look after me.

In this part Pir has showed immense love for Imam of the time. In the first couplet he says:

"I am forever enslaved to my Lord but He seems not to care about me".

Then look at last quatrain, he says again," Please grant me didar for you know how I feel; my mind and my intellect are no longer mine, o my love call me and look after me".

In Ginans there are so many love phrase like;
Darshan dio mora Shah daasi chhun teri
Haeirey bheetar agan jalanti re piya
Tujh re vina hum ku(n) neend na aavey
Mara angraa(n) ma uuthi vhey laher piya
Jem jal vina machhali tarrpharey, Tem nar vina ni naar
It is like MERA BAI;
Hu(n) tou Ram deevani mero darad na jaaney koi

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:21 am

swamidada wrote:Your other assertion was that if Pir Sadardin had written it should not have gone against Satpunth concepts. You also denied 'DHUBI LEY LEY GHOTHA KHAVEY, PIR PAIGAMBER TOIE NA PAAVEY'.

Correction...I said that if this was indeed a work written by Pir Sadardeen, it would be for general audience, not for Ismailis only. Hence 'DHUBI LEY LEY GHOTHA KHAVEY, PIR PAIGAMBER TOIE NA PAAVEY' would be applicable for general Sufis and not for Ismailis.

swamidada wrote: Then look at last quatrain, he says again," Please grant me didar for you know how I feel; my mind and my intellect are no longer mine, o my love call me and look after me".

What is the point you are trying to make?

swamidada_2 · Post by **swamidada_2** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:08 pm

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:Your other assertion was that if Pir Sadardin had written it should not have gone against Satpunth concepts. You also denied 'DHUBI LEY LEY GHOTHA KHAVEY, PIR PAIGAMBER TOIE NA PAAVEY'.
Correction...I said that if this was indeed a work written by Pir Sadardeen, it would be for general audience, not for Ismailis only. Hence 'DHUBI LEY LEY GHOTHA KHAVEY, PIR PAIGAMBER TOIE NA PAAVEY' would be applicable for general Sufis and not for Ismailis.

You wrote," Correction...I said that if this was indeed a work written by Pir Sadardeen.....". This shows still you do not believe Bhuj was penned by Pir Sadardin.

swamidada_2 · Post by **swamidada_2** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:16 pm

kmaherali wrote: What is the point you are trying to make?

I pointed out that in part 32 of Bhuj Pir Sadardin has described the immense love for creator and I quoted last quatrain. Let me post this again:

Then look at last quatrain, he says again," Please grant me didar for you know how I feel; my mind and my intellect are no longer mine, o my love call me and look after me".

In Ginans there are so many love phrases like;
Darshan dio mora Shah daasi chhun teri
Haeirey bheetar agan jalanti re piya
Tujh re vina hum ku(n) neend na aavey
Mara angraa(n) ma uuthi vhey laher piya
Jem jal vina machhali tarrpharey, Tem nar vina ni naar
It is like MERA BAI;
Hu(n) tou Ram deevani mero darad na jaaney koi

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:16 am

swamidada wrote: You wrote," Correction...I said that if this was indeed a work written by Pir Sadardeen.....". This shows still you do not believe Bhuj was penned by Pir Sadardin.

Yes, but this does not mean that I don't consider the work valuable as general guidance for Sufis.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:18 am

swamidada wrote:I pointed out that in part 32 of Bhuj Pir Sadardin has described the immense love for creator and I quoted last quatrain. Let me post this again:

So what, all Pirs are murids of the Imam and are expected to be true lovers as well.

swamidada_2 · Post by **swamidada_2** » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:55 pm

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote: You wrote," Correction...I said that if this was indeed a work written by Pir Sadardeen.....". This shows still you do not believe Bhuj was penned by Pir Sadardin.
Yes, but this does not mean that I don't consider the work valuable as general guidance for Sufis.

According to you this means Bhuj Nirinjin is applicable to Ismailis also being as sufis, as MSMS in one of his Farmans said,"TAMEY SUFISM MA DIL LAGARO....".

swamidada_2 · Post by **swamidada_2** » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:00 pm

kmaherali wrote:
swamidada wrote:I pointed out that in part 32 of Bhuj Pir Sadardin has described the immense love for creator and I quoted last quatrain. Let me post this again:
So what, all Pirs are murids of the Imam and are expected to be true lovers as well.

In one of your posts, you wrote,"Pirs are already merged with Noor e Imamat",
But Pir has also said," HUM TUM DONU SAIYAA(N) EEK HAI(N), HUM SU(N) PARDAH KHOL", Means still there is curtain.