Humanity better off without religions.

[Admin]

How come the topic Farman is discussed in the thread humanity better off without religion. Is it allowed for holy cows.

The topic of the Farman would never have come here if in the first place you would not have polluted this thread by bringing subjects such as reincarnation which were outside the context of this thread. I would have hoped that by now you would have understood that posting need some discipline

[FreeLancer]

How come the topic Farman is discussed in the thread humanity better off without religion. Is it allowed for holy cows.

The topic of the Farman would never have come here if in the first place you would not have polluted this thread by bringing subjects such as reincarnation which were outside the context of this thread. I would have hoped that by now you would have understood that posting need some discipline

Revisit my first post of Feb 22,18, I have not questioned about reincarnation. It was March 8,18 when Karim brought up reincarnation. This is happening because you are biased with me. Don't jump on conclusion.

[shivaathervedi_3]

God is perfect there is no defection in His perfectness then why is He creating defective or handicapped babies or other defective or deformed creation?

[shivaathervedi_3]

POPULATION CONTROL:

Many educated from subcontinent are deciding not to bring children into this over populated, unkind world. In urban India and Pakistan, couples are staying child-free or just one child theory to avoid further burdening the planet.

Parenthood is not for everyone; raising a child now adays is a huge financial and emotional investment; the compromise and commitment required is enormous; A child will inevitably be affected by the problems and stressful times we live in, some one would never be able to guarantee him or her protection. For example, in India, doomsday headlines scream out environmental and lifestyle-related problems every day. It all stems from over population, many of the reports say. Though everyone agrees that environmental issues need to be dealt with, are we considering the impact our decision to have children has on these issues.

Antinatalism is not a new philosophy. Traces emerge in ancient Greece where Sophocles laments life in the chorus of Oedipus, “Not to be born, O man, is the highest, the greatest word. But if you have seen the light of day, then consider it best to depart as quickly as possible to whence you came.” A rather bleak and grim outlook.

Effects of overpopulation, the data is difficult to ignore, though seeing the rate at which the Indian population is exploding and the resultant problems, we clearly are ignoring it. India is currently teeming with 1.3 billion people, making it the world’s second most populous country, and will outrank China by 2024. And how does one less human impact the environment? A study published in Environmental Research Letters equates the impact of having one fewer child to reducing 58 metric tonnes of CO2 for each year of the parent’s life. Other helpful ways to reduce one’s carbon footprint pale in comparison. Going car-free saves emissions by 2.4 metric tonnes and eating a plant-based diet 0.82 metric tonnes.

Even if we ignore the numbers, the effects are being felt by all of us. Cities like Karachi, Lahore, Delhi, Mumbai,and Bengaluru will run out of water in two years. According to the Center for Science and Environment, every third or forth child in Delhi and Karachi has irreversible lung damage caused by pollution. Educational institutions are struggling to cope with the demand of an ever-increasing number of students. Forest cover shrinks to make way for construction. In Pakistan around one million children and outsiders are added in population yearly, where as in India numbers 50+ millions. Do we have enough food and water resources?? In my opinion we need child free world for at least 10 years, mean while elderly will die and make room for coming generations.

[kmaherali]

What is the point you are trying to make? Are you suggesting that religions caused overpopulation?

[shivaathervedi_3]

What is the point you are trying to make? Are you suggesting that religions caused overpopulation?

In my opinion religions are the main cause of over population. Take example of Catholic Churches, pastors encourage parents to welcome many children. In USA, I have seen many married Catholic Latinos and Mexicans in between ages 22 to 30 having 6 to 8 children. Though pastors insists but they forget that Jesus Christ was unmarried without family. Also Pope Francis refuses to endorse contraception!!

Muslim fertility rate is higher every where they live. Even in USA and Europe fertility rate is double than other nationalities. In interior of Pakistan, in Pushtun (Pathan) belt and in Afghans I have seen young married couples have 6/7 children, and this is happening under influence of Mullahs. Increase the number of Muslims, doesn't matter if they stay hungry, stay out of schools begging in streets.

In Indian rural areas, like farmers and peasants feel proud of having large families not thinking how they will support them. What will be future of these kids: resulting in minor girls marriages to old men to get rid of girls stock ruining lives of poor girls.

[Admin]

In Montreal, home to 100,000+ Jews, it is not uncommon to see traditional Jewish couple walking with 8 or 10 kids. I don't think this is necessarily due to religion, it may be cultural.

[kmaherali]

Religions need to be dynamic and adapt to changing realities. I hope our faith can and will provide the lead having a Living Imam!

[shivaathervedi_3]

In Montreal, home to 100,000+ Jews, it is not uncommon to see traditional Jewish couple walking with 8 or 10 kids. I don't think this is necessarily due to religion, it may be cultural.

It can be cultural or lust!!
In my observation bearded persons of any religion, mostly orthodox have more children in comparison to clean shaved persons.

[shivaathervedi_3]

Religions need to be dynamic and adapt to changing realities. I hope our faith can and will provide the lead having a Living Imam!

How many children? We do not have any specific Farman on this subject.
Educated working Ismaili parents and other educated persons understand the parenting problems, hence mostly they have one or two children. They have adopted the formula,"HUM DOU HAMAREY DOU". And recent formula is,"HUM DOU HAMARA EEK".

[kmaherali]

How many children? We do not have any specific Farman on this subject.
Educated working Ismaili parents and other educated persons understand the parenting problems, hence mostly they have one or two children. They have adopted the formula,"HUM DOU HAMAREY DOU". And recent formula is,"HUM DOU HAMARA EEK".

You cannot quantify. Each family will decide based on their circumstances and resources.

[shivaathervedi_3]

How many children? We do not have any specific Farman on this subject.
Educated working Ismaili parents and other educated persons understand the parenting problems, hence mostly they have one or two children. They have adopted the formula,"HUM DOU HAMAREY DOU". And recent formula is,"HUM DOU HAMARA EEK".

You cannot quantify. Each family will decide based on their circumstances and resources.

You are half right when you wrote,'each family will decide based on their circumstances and resources'. Your statement is applicable for educated persons, but what about majority of illiterate persons mostly living in rural areas under influence of religious dons.

[kmaherali]

You are half right when you wrote,'each family will decide based on their circumstances and resources'. Your statement is applicable for educated persons, but what about majority of illiterate persons mostly living in rural areas under influence of religious dons.

Remember we are discussing reinterpretation under the guidance of the Living Imam, hence here we are discussing Jamati circumstance as a model for others to follow.

[shivaathervedi_3]

You are half right when you wrote,'each family will decide based on their circumstances and resources'. Your statement is applicable for educated persons, but what about majority of illiterate persons mostly living in rural areas under influence of religious dons.

Remember we are discussing reinterpretation under the guidance of the Living Imam, hence here we are discussing Jamati circumstance as a model for others to follow.

I am unable to find any Farman or guidance on the subject,' How many children a married murid of Imam should have'. Are you aware of such Farman?
Still in Afghanistan and Central Asian countries financially lower and middle class Ismailis have large families (6-8 children). Even India and Pakistan I have seen large families, result hardships of life; quality of life, higher education, and malnutrition.

[kmaherali]

I am unable to find any Farman or guidance on the subject,' How many children a married murid of Imam should have'. Are you aware of such Farman?
Still in Afghanistan and Central Asian countries financially lower and middle class Ismailis have large families (6-8 children). Even India and Pakistan I have seen large families, result hardships of life; quality of life, higher education, and malnutrition.

MSMS made the following statement in his Memoirs:

Ismailism has survived because it has always been fluid. Rigidity is contrary to our whole way of life and outlook. There have really been no cut and dried rules; even the set of regulations known as the Holy Laws are directions as to method and procedure and not detailed orders about results to be obtained. In some countries-India and Africa for example-the Ismailis have a council system, under which their local councillors are charged with all internal administrative responsibility, and report to me what they have done. In Syria, Central Asia and Iran, leadership, as I have said, is vested in hereditary recommended leaders and chiefs, who are the Imam's representatives and who look after the administration of the various jamats, or congregations.

[shivaathervedi_3]

Kmaherali, your quote from Memoirs is unrelated to my question. My question was," Is there any Farman of Imam in which he mentioned, how many children his married murid should have 2 or 12"? This quotation is not a Farman. MSMS wrote about fluidity and rigidity of faith and about council system in subcontinent and African countries or about the hereditary leadership in Iran and Central Asia.

[kmaherali]

Kmaherali, your quote from Memoirs is unrelated to my question. My question was," Is there any Farman of Imam in which he mentioned, how many children his married murid should have 2 or 12"? This quotation is not a Farman. MSMS wrote about fluidity and rigidity of faith and about council system in subcontinent and African countries or about the hereditary leadership in Iran and Central Asia.

The quote states that there is no rigidity and there are no cut and dry rules. Are you really expecting a Farman on the exact number of children?

[shivaathervedi_3]

Kmaherali, your quote from Memoirs is unrelated to my question. My question was," Is there any Farman of Imam in which he mentioned, how many children his married murid should have 2 or 12"? This quotation is not a Farman. MSMS wrote about fluidity and rigidity of faith and about council system in subcontinent and African countries or about the hereditary leadership in Iran and Central Asia.

The quote states that there is no rigidity and there are no cut and dry rules. Are you really expecting a Farman on the exact number of children?

Hazar Imam talks about the quality of life or high standard of life. Now a person having 7/8 children in Pakistan/India/Afghanistan earning ten or fifteen thousand Rupees monthly can't do justice with children to provide them higher education or better living conditions. Where to draw the line.

[kmaherali]

Hazar Imam talks about the quality of life or high standard of life. Now a person having 7/8 children in Pakistan/India/Afghanistan earning ten or fifteen thousand Rupees monthly can't do justice with children to provide them higher education or better living conditions. Where to draw the line.

Each family will decide based on it's circumstances. However we have the means to control the number today.

[shivaathervedi_3]

Hazar Imam talks about the quality of life or high standard of life. Now a person having 7/8 children in Pakistan/India/Afghanistan earning ten or fifteen thousand Rupees monthly can't do justice with children to provide them higher education or better living conditions. Where to draw the line.

Each family will decide based on it's circumstances. However we have the means to control the number today.

Though we have means to control population but still it keeps multiplying on rapid pace. I was thinking about the over population an idea struck my mind. Why not God installed sensors in women's womb that should have allowed women to give birth every 5 years with limit not more than 5 children (good for their health also), how is that. Do you like this idea? Good ideas are heavenly, isn't it?

[shivaathervedi_3]

A question clicked in my mind. Was Adam (the creation of God by His both hands) a white man, or a black man, or a brown man,or a yellow man. Please solve the problem.

[shivaathervedi_3]

I was thinking about Universe and this idea came into my mind.
Owner of the Universe is running affairs as a unlimited corporation. He is Nirinjin not visible. He has appointed a CEO (Intercessor, Divine intellect) to run this huge boundary less corporation. CEO has a team of experts called angels. 4 of them are important. These 4 angels have countless angels working under them.These angels work round the clock, they don't eat, drink sleep, they don't have time for exercise or jogging. There is one very strong mischievous angel. Because of him Lord's stock market of deeds keep moving up and down and constantly changing. This mischievous angel is Lord's necessity to balance the power of good and evil. Lord's other angels are programmed like computers, but this mischievous angel is on its own. Lord has unleashed him without programming. He is the most important entity in the system of Lord. Lord has given him excess to brains and homes of every one. He is very friendly that's why majority humans follow him. There is no sect or division in his dharma. He is polite and always smiling because smiling is blessing from lord.

[aatimaram]

A twist in Adam story;

Did God performed some sort of surgical procedure on Adam. Eva was made or created from the Adam's rib. He cut the rib, trim it, shave it polish it and made a perfect beautiful product. I wander, how he made private parts of Adam and Eve? Does he has drawing or plan in His mind?

[swamidada_1]

Some imaginary questions and answers:

Q- Is God merciful?
A- Nope, look around millions are in pain, grief, poor health, suffering from diseases, dying from hunger.

Q- God is Perfect, what about His creature?
A- Many humans and animals are born handicap, some missing limbs and with congenital problems.

Q- Is God's system orderly?
A- Yes orderly but disordered. There is chaos in universe.

Q- Can a man fight with God?
A- Yes, but can not win. God is smartest, He has kept all powers with Him.

Q- Why is He creating more and more babies when there is shortage of usable drinking water and food on planet earth?
A- May be for fun, or He likes to hear cries of new born babies, hungry women, sick elderly and slaughtered animals.

Q- Does God sleep?
A- No, He is suffering from insomnia, or if He sleeps lower gods can steal His products and disappear deep in ocean.

Q- How old is God?
A- He will never tell (feminine aspect).

Q- Is human being His best product?
A- I don't think so. When a man wake up in morning, foul smell comes out of his mouth, he has to brush his teeth or use Listren. Man has to go to bath room, he farts, he has to take shower and clean himself. Faulty product!!

Q- Did He created Adam and Eva colorless?
A- Looks like He created 4 types of Adam. White Adam. Black Adam. Yellow Adam. Brown Adam allowing mix and match. Same rule applied on poor Eva.

Q- Is God's creation continued?
A- This mean so far He has not perfected His original product.

[kmaherali]

Such a contrast between the above question/answers and the profound poetry of Shah Latif that you post. I wonder whether you believe in the profound poetry that you post. Is there any conviction or it is merely for convenience.

[swamidada_1]

Such a contrast between the above question/answers and the profound poetry of Shah Latif that you post. I wonder whether you believe in the profound poetry that you post. Is there any conviction or it is merely for convenience.

I believe in God beyond imagination. Every human being has its own experience with God (except an atheist). When I see or hear miseries and sufferings of human beings or even animals it hurts. Why I express my self in such a way, let me give an example. I would like that readers of this post should look at the image of an innocent little girl age 7 which was victim of war in between Saudis and Yemenis which appeared in Time magazine dated Dec 17, 2018, vol 192. It appeared in section photos of the year. The caption reads, " CASUALTY OF WAR", This image of 7 year old AMAL HUSSAIN in October drew global attention to the humanitarian crisis caused by the Saudi led war in Yemen...... Saudi Royals claim they are guardian of Islam but I consider them as THUGS OF ISLAM.
Amal died in refugee camp because of malnutrition, hunger and lack of medicines (please just look at her photo). The UN SAYS 14 MILLION IN YEMEN COULD BE ON THE EDGE OF STARVATION.
Not this particular child Amal only, but thousands of of children are dying every day because of hunger, malnutrition and shortage of food and drinking water. What a shame. Such kind of my postings are a way to protest God. He is called Rahim wa Rahman, What can I further say.
Allamah Iqbal said:

AY KHUDA SHIKWA E ARBAAB E WAFA BHI SUUN LEY
KHUGAR E HAMD SEY THORA SA GILLA BHI SUUN LEY

[kmaherali]

The point I am making is that if you disagree on the spirit of the work of Shah Latif especially in regards to the Divine attributes of mercy and power, you should not be posting his poetry. It demonstrates lack of conviction in what you post.

[swamidada_1]

The point I am making is that if you disagree on the spirit of the work of Shah Latif especially in regards to the Divine attributes of mercy and power, you should not be posting his poetry. It demonstrates lack of conviction in what you post.

I adore spiritual poetry of Shah Latif and Romi. Their spiritual poetry is best.
Shah Latif has spoken about the weak masses of his time and encouraged them to stand up against tyrants. I understand your concern but each human being is attached on one end with God and at other end with his human fellows. I am writing about the miseries and hardships of human beings at large. An empty stomach or a ill person or a person in pain shall not think about spiritual poetry. You have been reading in news papers and magazines, or watching on TV or internet about the killings of innocents (children, women, elderly), look at the those skeletons of babies and women dying of hunger in middle East, south Asia, African countries and else where. IS NOT THE GOD RESPONSIBLE FOR PROVIDING FOOD TO THEM WHEN WE CALL HIM RAZAAQ?? If not then why these babies are born in millions when there is no enough food on planet earth. This is why I quoted Allamah Iqbal:

AY KHUDA SHIKWA E ARBAAB E WAFA BHI SUUN LEY
KHUGAR E HAMD SEY THORA SA GILLA BHI SUUN LEY

In my questions and mocking answers there is some sense. Let me ask you this question, what was the color of face of Adam? Was he a white man or a black man?

[kmaherali]

In my questions and mocking answers there is some sense. Let me ask you this question, what was the color of face of Adam? Was he a white man or a black man?

The poems of the great Sufi masters are not a product of idle fancy but of profound thinking and reflection resulting from deep spiritual experiences. By posting items which go against their message, you are demonstrating lack of respect for such lofty knowledge. If you feel you are not capable of understanding their poetry, don't post them.

On your question about Adam, I don't understand the intent behind it. What difference does it make whether a white or black.

[swamidada_1]

In my questions and mocking answers there is some sense. Let me ask you this question, what was the color of face of Adam? Was he a white man or a black man?

The poems of the great Sufi masters are not a product of idle fancy but of profound thinking and reflection resulting from deep spiritual experiences. By posting items which go against their message, you are demonstrating lack of respect for such lofty knowledge. If you feel you are not capable of understanding their poetry, don't post them.

On your question about Adam, I don't understand the intent behind it. What difference does it make whether a white or black.

Without understanding my message, you unnecessarily linked the spirituality of Shah Latif with the post of my question answers. Let me give an example;

I wrote:

Q- Is God merciful?
A- Nope, look around millions are in pain, grief, poor health, suffering from diseases, dying from hunger.

My message is about miseries and hardships of helpless human beings. When God is Rahim, Rahman, Razzaq, then why thousands every day die of hunger and malnutrition on planet earth? My that post had nothing to do with divinity of any poet. EMPTY STOMACHS NEED FOOD AND NOT SPIRITUAL POETRY.
I have studied Shah Jo Risalo, I have memorized scores of his couplets and can give lectures on spiritual message of Shah.

Regarding color of face of Adam is important in connection to genetic science.
Why human beings are of different races and colors? If you want we can discuss this topic.