12 Imams of the Ithan'ashar
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12 Imams of the Ithan'ashar
<P>Ya Ali Madat,<BR><BR>I was recently told by someone in a discussion we had o­n shiism that there is an hadith that relates to some importance of the number 12 and that there can o­nly be 12 Imams. I haven't seen the hadith yet but was wondering what anyone had to say about this.<BR>Another thing that I was thinking about was, to paraphrase the hadith, Prophet Muhammed (s.a.w) said that he left the Holy Qur'an and Ahl-al-Bayt (family/progeny) for his followers not to fall astray. Since all the Imams, including those that follow Imam Musa o­n the Ithna 'ashar side and those that follow Imam Isma'il, are part of Prophet Muhammed's family then does that mean that whatever leadership from all of the Imams (on both sides) gave should be valid, recognised and accepted by all shii alike? If so then why are our religious practices quite different from the Ithna 'ashar and theirs from ours (prayers, practice of the sunna, etc)?<BR><BR>Khalid</P>
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star_munir
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Regarding 12 Imams and Hadith:
There is a hadith of Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] that Just for a second If Imam will not in this world than world will destroy.
This is very important hadith same thing is told in Ginan and Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and it is also quoted by Moulan Roumi.
So world can not exist without Imam. I have heard one such hadith of 12 Imams but no one can believe it. In a book I read that Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] or Hazrat Ali told the NAMES of 12 imams. Now It is totally wrong hadith. I have posted about wrong hadiths in section of doctrines.
There is a hadith of Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] that Just for a second If Imam will not in this world than world will destroy.
This is very important hadith same thing is told in Ginan and Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah and it is also quoted by Moulan Roumi.
So world can not exist without Imam. I have heard one such hadith of 12 Imams but no one can believe it. In a book I read that Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] or Hazrat Ali told the NAMES of 12 imams. Now It is totally wrong hadith. I have posted about wrong hadiths in section of doctrines.
Keep in mind that when the 12th Imam disappeared...the Ithna Ashari community was in utter confusion. All these hadiths about 12 Imams were found AFTER their 12th imam disappeared. These hadiths are obvious forgeries.
What good is an Imam if he is hiding in a cave??
He cannot guide his followers at all!
What good is an Imam if he is hiding in a cave??
He cannot guide his followers at all!
In response to what Star_Munir said. Yes, it was Phrophet Muhammad who fortold the comin of the next 5 Imams NOT 12. A follower of the phrophet one day came and asked him oh Muhammad who will come after you. The phrophet replied after me will come Ali, the Husain, then Ali (Mowlana Zainul Abidins real name), then Bakir, then Gafarsadic. He further went on to say that you will live until the time of Gafarsadic and when you see him convey this message to him. Now please note I have to check up weather or not it was 4th Imam or 5th Imam. I will post a further reply.
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YA ALI MADAD!
I am sorry, Prophet Muhamad(S.A.A.W) had foretold about the 12 Imams and the 12th Imam Mahdi(A.T.F) would dissapear. This is also accepted by majority Sunnis. The Imam guides us through granting us salvation and through his representative(NAEB) who is The Grand Ayatollah Ali Ali Al-Hussayni As-Sistani(R.A) who resides at Najaf(Iraq).
I am sorry, Prophet Muhamad(S.A.A.W) had foretold about the 12 Imams and the 12th Imam Mahdi(A.T.F) would dissapear. This is also accepted by majority Sunnis. The Imam guides us through granting us salvation and through his representative(NAEB) who is The Grand Ayatollah Ali Ali Al-Hussayni As-Sistani(R.A) who resides at Najaf(Iraq).
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YA ALI MADAD,Anonymous wrote:YA ALI MADAD!
I am sorry, Prophet Muhamad(S.A.A.W) had foretold about the 12 Imams and the 12th Imam Mahdi(A.T.F) would dissapear. This is also accepted by majority Sunnis. The Imam guides us through granting us salvation and through his representative(NAEB) who is The Grand Ayatollah Ali Ali Al-Hussayni As-Sistani(R.A) who resides at Najaf(Iraq).
That is your interpretation. Our interpretation states that the Imam MUST be always present to guide his followers. He cannot be in hiding.
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star_munir
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Hazrat Muhammad [PBUH] said,“Any one who dies without having known the Imam of his time dies as an unbeliever or idolater.”
Also It is in Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah that,”Paigamber ka Farman hai k Jo Imam gadi per Hazir ho un ko manay."
Apart from Farman and Ginan it is also in hadith and also quoted by Mowlana Rumi that world can not exist without the presence of a living Imam. If Imam is not present in the world then from where the people should seek guidance?
There is not such true hadith that Imam will diapear from this world. If that was the case what was the need of 12 Imams also? But the fact is that there are many hadiths about living Imam. Also in Famous hadith of Gadir-e-khaum Hazrat Muhammad [PBUH] said,”I am leaving amongst you two most important things worthy of obedience, the Holy Quran and My Progeny. Take care how you treat them, they will not seprated from each other till they reach Me at the fountain of Kausar."
It is a proof in Ismaili history that uptil now there were many enemies who tried to end the Imamat but they were unable to do so and will unable to do so. In Tafseer ul mutaqqen page number 594 also there is a hadith according to which there will be Imam till the day of judgement.
The hadith that Prophet [PBUH] told the names of all 12 Imams look like fake hadith attributed to Prophet [PBUH] which we ismailis do not believe. Actually after death of Prophet [PBUH] many false hadiths were attributed to Prophet [PBUH]..It was discussed in doctrine section of forum under topic wrong hadiths.
Also It is in Farman of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah that,”Paigamber ka Farman hai k Jo Imam gadi per Hazir ho un ko manay."
Apart from Farman and Ginan it is also in hadith and also quoted by Mowlana Rumi that world can not exist without the presence of a living Imam. If Imam is not present in the world then from where the people should seek guidance?
There is not such true hadith that Imam will diapear from this world. If that was the case what was the need of 12 Imams also? But the fact is that there are many hadiths about living Imam. Also in Famous hadith of Gadir-e-khaum Hazrat Muhammad [PBUH] said,”I am leaving amongst you two most important things worthy of obedience, the Holy Quran and My Progeny. Take care how you treat them, they will not seprated from each other till they reach Me at the fountain of Kausar."
It is a proof in Ismaili history that uptil now there were many enemies who tried to end the Imamat but they were unable to do so and will unable to do so. In Tafseer ul mutaqqen page number 594 also there is a hadith according to which there will be Imam till the day of judgement.
The hadith that Prophet [PBUH] told the names of all 12 Imams look like fake hadith attributed to Prophet [PBUH] which we ismailis do not believe. Actually after death of Prophet [PBUH] many false hadiths were attributed to Prophet [PBUH]..It was discussed in doctrine section of forum under topic wrong hadiths.
Wow ..Anonymous wrote:YA ALI MADAD!
I am sorry, Prophet Muhamad(S.A.A.W) had foretold about the 12 Imams and the 12th Imam Mahdi(A.T.F) would dissapear. This is also accepted by majority Sunnis. The Imam guides us through granting us salvation and through his representative(NAEB) who is The Grand Ayatollah Ali Ali Al-Hussayni As-Sistani(R.A) who resides at Najaf(Iraq).
you know something..you are SO right..and we are SO wrong..we're going to go to Hell..and we choose to do so...knowing full well what we do...so please let us be...and you are free to be...
ShamsB
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YA ALI MADAD!
Can an Imam be a buisnessman and a multi-bilioniare like Prince Agakhan or that CHOR Dr.Burhanudeen. There are so many Imams of Ismailies who went to hiding like the 11th Imam Muhamad bin Raziyuddin Abdullah or the Imams who came after the Alamut Imams who were known as 'AIMATUL-DAWR-AL-SATR(The hidden Imams)'. Please learn more about your Imams then learning much about us.
[email protected]
Excuse me, we know about our history.
First of all, the Ismaili Imams went into "concealment" NOT "occultation".
FOr you, it is the SAME Imam, who has gone into occultation for the last 1200 years. And you believe the same Imam is will one day return.
The Ismaili belief is not like that at all.
As for Imam Shah Karim being a businessman...in Islam, there is no separation between Din and Duniya. Therefore, like Prophet Muhammad, the Imam of the Time is allowed to live a worldly life. Did you know that Prophet Muhammad and Abu Talib were businessmen?
Your Ayatollah has decided to shun material and political life. That is his choice...but what kind of example does that set for his followers?
Also...where is the proof that your Imam appointed Sistani as his Naib? There is nothing written, nothing in the Quran to support that.
First of all, the Ismaili Imams went into "concealment" NOT "occultation".
FOr you, it is the SAME Imam, who has gone into occultation for the last 1200 years. And you believe the same Imam is will one day return.
The Ismaili belief is not like that at all.
As for Imam Shah Karim being a businessman...in Islam, there is no separation between Din and Duniya. Therefore, like Prophet Muhammad, the Imam of the Time is allowed to live a worldly life. Did you know that Prophet Muhammad and Abu Talib were businessmen?
Your Ayatollah has decided to shun material and political life. That is his choice...but what kind of example does that set for his followers?
Also...where is the proof that your Imam appointed Sistani as his Naib? There is nothing written, nothing in the Quran to support that.
YA ALI MADADAnonymous wrote:
YA ALI MADAD!
There are so many Imams of Ismailies who went to hiding like the 11th Imam Muhamad bin Raziyuddin Abdullah or the Imams who came after the Alamut Imams who were known as 'AIMATUL-DAWR-AL-SATR(The hidden Imams)'. Please learn more about your Imams then learning much about us.
[email protected]
The Imams appeared to be concealed by the world at large but he was never concealed from his murids. As a matter of fact they organized and directed Dawat activities during the period of apparent concealment that planted the seeds for the glorious Fatimid empire which contributed significantly towards the revival and development of intellectual, cultural and religious life in the Islamic world.
Like i said before..you are right..we are wrong..we know it and we choose to follow this path....let us go to hell on our own..we don't need you to come save us..on the day of judgement you are more than welcome to stand with your Imam and we will stand with ours.Anonymous wrote:
YA ALI MADAD!
Can an Imam be a buisnessman and a multi-bilioniare like Prince Agakhan or that CHOR Dr.Burhanudeen. There are so many Imams of Ismailies who went to hiding like the 11th Imam Muhamad bin Raziyuddin Abdullah or the Imams who came after the Alamut Imams who were known as 'AIMATUL-DAWR-AL-SATR(The hidden Imams)'. Please learn more about your Imams then learning much about us.
[email protected]
ShamsB...