Prophet Mohamed PBUH - Milad-e-Nabi & life

[FreeLancer]

Appreciate your approach but ground realities are different. Modern youth is most advanced because of internet. Approach of youth is 'I believe what I see', who will wait for batini results. Past 20+ years Imam has also changed his approach to wards youth, you can feel it when Imam addresses youth. The most common question they ask, "Is Imam God?" and they want answer Yes or No. In this situation what type of batin you will explain them?

That is where you have to correct the youth and guide them. Everything in the internet is not useful. We have to be selective. Simplistic answers cannot be given to such questions. MHI was asked in the television interview about whether he was God and he answered that mysticism in its essence is difficult. We have to approach these questions from different angles.

When interviewer asked Imam whether he is God? Imam promptly said it is blasphemous. As I mentioned before that because of social media and negative propaganda about Ismailis and Imam youth is disturbed and they come up with strange questions. As some where I mentioned in my previous post that when a missionary mentioned the event of Pir Shams miracle of descending sun to cook a piece of meat. They surrounded missionary and asked about the scientific reason. Why on Hidayat of Imam the new curriculum of religious centers and STEP is stream lined with the teachings of Islam? Now the books on interpretation of Quran are being written specially for religious students (also adults) by IIS. We can feel this change in Farmans of Imam in recent past.

[Admin]

Stick t the subject of the thread please

[kmaherali]

When interviewer asked Imam whether he is God? Imam promptly said it is blasphemous.

As I said before, the issue is not that simple. Let us consider the question and answer.

Mawlana Hazar Imam was asked: "One of the myths surrounding you is that some people in the West think of you as a living God. Not only is that not true, but it is blasphemous?" To which MHI answered: "Absolutely. I mean, as you know the faith of Islam was revealed at a time the Arabian continent was idolatrous and idolatary - all forms of idolatary are totally prohibited by Islam. It is certainly true to say that the Western World doesn't necessarily understand the theology of Shi'ism nor indeed the theology of many mystical sects whether they are Shia or Sunni or Christian. Mysticism, in it's essence is difficult."

From the above answer given by the Imam there are two facets: the zaheri and the batini. According to the zaheri perspective the Imam's body is obviously not God but from the batini perspective, mysticism is difficult pointing to or suggesting that there is more to Imamat than simply his body.

[kmaherali]

As some where I mentioned in my previous post that when a missionary mentioned the event of Pir Shams miracle of descending sun to cook a piece of meat. They surrounded missionary and asked about the scientific reason.

The incident is described at:

Pre-Fatimid --> Pir Shams - Voyage - Multan - Translation

Put your question there after reading the whole article please.

[FreeLancer]

As some where I mentioned in my previous post that when a missionary mentioned the event of Pir Shams miracle of descending sun to cook a piece of meat. They surrounded missionary and asked about the scientific reason.

The incident is described at:

Pre-Fatimid --> Pir Shams - Voyage - Multan - Translation

Put your question there after reading the whole article please.

I am posting this paragraph from the thread you mentioned. It is from Tazim Kassim's book.

"After a great deal of time had elapsed, Pir Shams al-Din, suffering from hunger, begged the people for some food. However, nobody paid any attention to him. A butcher took heart and gave him a piece of meat. Pir Shams al-Din began to ponder on how he would cook the meat. Taking it along with him, he went outside the city of Multan and, by his own powers, brought the sun down to cook it. The people of Multan began to sizzle under the sun's unbearable heat, and many of them scurried to the Pir, fell at his feet, and begged for forgiveness. The Pir was merciful, and, since by this time the piece of meat had been cooked, he ordered the sun to go back to its original place, which it did. The site at which the sun descended was henceforth called Suryakand. It exists even now, and each year a huge festival is celebrated there".

Karim you are a highly educated person. Trained at IIS and an engineer knowing science well. My take;
If sun incline down ward one degree what will happen on earth or if sun move one degree upward what will happen to earth?

[FreeLancer]

When interviewer asked Imam whether he is God? Imam promptly said it is blasphemous.

As I said before, the issue is not that simple. Let us consider the question and answer.

Mawlana Hazar Imam was asked: "One of the myths surrounding you is that some people in the West think of you as a living God. Not only is that not true, but it is blasphemous?" To which MHI answered: "Absolutely. I mean, as you know the faith of Islam was revealed at a time the Arabian continent was idolatrous and idolatary - all forms of idolatary are totally prohibited by Islam. It is certainly true to say that the Western World doesn't necessarily understand the theology of Shi'ism nor indeed the theology of many mystical sects whether they are Shia or Sunni or Christian. Mysticism, in it's essence is difficult."

From the above answer given by the Imam there are two facets: the zaheri and the batini. According to the zaheri perspective the Imam's body is obviously not God but from the batini perspective, mysticism is difficult pointing to or suggesting that there is more to Imamat than simply his body.

Imam's first word was 'ABSOLUTELY' means it is blasphemous. Later on he addressed the question by mentioning Shia ,Sunni, and Christian mysticism. Many Shia and Sunni sufis claimed to be God. What happened to them,
those Gods did not protect them selves and were killed, same way do you consider Jesus Christ as God. If Christ was God he should not have been crucified.

[Admin]

Come back to the thread or continue this line in the appropriate thread. Whatever is not on Prophet Muhammad or closely related will be deleted.

[Nuseri_1]

Ya Ali Madad.
The answer is first line of question.not self answer by interviewer himself.
Blasphemous word was said by interviewer.( Who bungled himself ).
If MHI replied That he in no God ,in one simple trust answer.but gave reply covered truth of mysticism ( Baatin concept) to answer his masked truth.
Question was Are you God answer was ABSOLUTE.LY.
if ALI wishes he bungles up the mind of asker ,so the reply was as MHI deem fit.
He was not God what thinking and self statement of the asker.
When MHI said Absolutely ,mean Yes to first line.or would have answered No,I am not God.
But affirm the reply to first line and goes on to explain the Sufi belief.
MHI said our is SUFI tariqa.
TAKE IT OR LEAVE.
when posts out say HE can see everyone,He means it in a crowded of 20000+
It is physically not POSSIBLE for person to all in xyz minutes from one static location.
DOUBT ON ALI is biggest curse one can carry into next phase of life.
The is Hadith , those who hate Ali hate God and those you love Ali loves God.
Those who suspect also fall in same line of suspecting God.
Admin abetting this curse also affect his afterlife.

[ShamsB]

Ya Ali Madad.
The answer is first line of question.not self answer by interviewer himself.
Blasphemous word was said by interviewer.( Who bungled himself ).
If MHI replied That he in no God ,in one simple trust answer.but gave reply covered truth of mysticism ( Baatin concept) to answer his masked truth.
Question was Are you God answer was ABSOLUTE.LY.
if ALI wishes he bungles up the mind of asker ,so the reply was as MHI deem fit.
He was not God what thinking and self statement of the asker.
When MHI said Absolutely ,mean Yes to first line.or would have answered No,I am not God.
But affirm the reply to first line and goes on to explain the Sufi belief.
MHI said our is SUFI tariqa.
TAKE IT OR LEAVE.
when posts out say HE can see everyone,He means it in a crowded of 20000+
It is physically not POSSIBLE for person to all in xyz minutes from one static location.
DOUBT ON ALI is biggest curse one can carry into next phase of life.
The is Hadith , those who hate Ali hate God and those you love Ali loves God.
Those who suspect also fall in same line of suspecting God.
Admin abetting this curse also affect his afterlife.

The question was phrased incorrectly:-)

Are you a god? meaning one of many - similar to a hindu pantheon - versus are you God?
Watch the video - and we have no idea what part of the question Hazar Imam is answering or whether it is in the affirmative or not.

Shams

[kmaherali]

Imam's first word was 'ABSOLUTELY' means it is blasphemous. Later on he addressed the question by mentioning Shia ,Sunni, and Christian mysticism. Many Shia and Sunni sufis claimed to be God. What happened to them,
those Gods did not protect them selves and were killed, same way do you consider Jesus Christ as God. If Christ was God he should not have been crucified.

Admin,
This discussion is relevant because divinity of the Prophet and the Imam are related.

There are always two facets in an esoteric tradition: the zaher and the batin. The Sufi masters who had become God also go through the same trials and tribulations that the ordinary humans go through. In fact they have to ensure more than the ordinary humans because of their enhanced capacity to bear the difficulties. However the difference is that the God-realized masters are not affected by the tribulations. There is a verse of a Ginan which states:

ejee neesee jal hoveto kuchh kaar na aave
peerune farmaayaa ba(n)daa sohee kamaave.. so allaah.........2

The one who is as pure as clean water will not be affected by time. O creature the Guide says that such a person will indeed be rewarded.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22916

In the case of Christ or Hallaj, the crucifixion was a moment of Union and not a brutal death.

[Admin]

Admin,
This discussion is relevant because divinity of the Prophet and the Imam are related..

Absolutely BUT we try to have some boundaries so people can focus on one aspect in each thread, else it is true that many subjects are related and discussion can drift on subjects that are close to each other but very far from the primary thread. I am asking everyone to be conscious that if there is a thread for a specific subject, try to remain as close as possible to the thread.

For example discussing Ali Allah here would not be inappropriate but there is another thead for this. if there is a discussion on specifically Nabi Allah, it is better to open a new thread as this would be a subject by itself.

[FreeLancer]

ANA WA ALIYYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID.

GAR JUDA DAANI ALI AZ MUSTAFA
DUSHMAN E JAANAT KHUDA E KIBRIYA AST

RUMI

[kmaherali]

O momins: In the beginning and in the void,
Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide
(Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.

In primordial time Allah created Noor e Ali and Noor e Muhammadi same time. Prophet said," Ana wa Aliyyun min Noorin wahid".
Physically Prophet first appeared in Mecca and not in Junmpu dweep.

Are you saying that for billions of years, the Nur Muhammadi was unmanifest?

[FreeLancer]

O momins: In the beginning and in the void,
Prophet Muhammed the Chosen was there. It is indeed the same Guide
(Peer) who has come to the Indian Subcontinent.

In primordial time Allah created Noor e Ali and Noor e Muhammadi same time. Prophet said," Ana wa Aliyyun min Noorin wahid".
Physically Prophet first appeared in Mecca and not in Junmpu dweep.

Are you saying that for billions of years, the Nur Muhammadi was unmanifest?

Please take either religious course or scientific course. Scientifically billions of years but religiously around 7000 years from creation of Adam.
Noor can't be rotten, spoiled, out of date, void or of no use. Noor has been always fresh from primordial times. We do not have historical account where and how it was manifested. According to even Ismaili history Prophet physically appeared in Mecca.
Did Junmudweep existed in primordial times?

[kmaherali]

Please take either religious course or scientific course. Scientifically billions of years but religiously around 7000 years from creation of Adam.
Noor can't be rotten, spoiled, out of date, void or of no use. Noor has been always fresh from primordial times. We do not have historical account where and how it was manifested. According to even Ismaili history Prophet physically appeared in Mecca.
Did Junmudweep existed in primordial times?

MSMS mentions thousands of years before the advent of Muhammad, there arose guides throughout the world. He mentions Sr Ram, Sri Krishna, weren't they much earlier than Hazarat Adam?

Of course in our tradition the light of Piratan has always been equivalent to Nur Muhammadi. The Pirs have always existed alongside the Imams just as Prophet Muhammad existed with Hazarat Ali.

Verses of Anant Akhado to illustrate the continuity of Piratan.

Aashaajee Jug kartaa maanhe ek kalaa rachaayaa
tees maanhe ham-kun jaanno jee
beejaa jug maanhe Veejeshthann kaheeyen
sobee ham avtaar........................Haree anant..374

Oh Lord During the era of Kerta the Lord created a manifestation
I(Pir Hassan Kabirdin) was that manifestation (as Gur
Brahma)
In the Treta Jug the manifestation was called
Veejeshthann
even that was my manifestation
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Jug Dwaapur maanhe Veedur-vyaas kaheeyen
sobee ham-kun jaanno jee
Kal-jug maanhe ham-hi jaanno
sohee Rasul naam........................Haree anant..375

Oh Lord In the Dwaapur Jug the name of the manifestation of Gur
Brahma was Veedur-vyaas
Even He was our form
In the Kal-jug we are the manifestation of Gur Brahma
and it is the same light of the Messenger(Prophet
Muhammed)
Haree You are eternal...

[shivaathervedi_2]

Please take either religious course or scientific course. Scientifically billions of years but religiously around 7000 years from creation of Adam.
Noor can't be rotten, spoiled, out of date, void or of no use. Noor has been always fresh from primordial times. We do not have historical account where and how it was manifested. According to even Ismaili history Prophet physically appeared in Mecca.
Did Junmudweep existed in primordial times?

MSMS mentions thousands of years before the advent of Muhammad, there arose guides throughout the world. He mentions Sr Ram, Sri Krishna, weren't they much earlier than Hazarat Adam?

Reply:
Let me quote the exact wordings of MSMS;

"Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired MESSENGERS in other countries, Gautama Buddah, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise men of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost".
Please note that MSMS considered Shri Krishna and Shri Rama as Prophets.

[kmaherali]

Please note that MSMS considered Shri Krishna and Shri Rama as Prophets.

Please note that Memoirs is directed to he public, especially the Western audience, hence it would be inappropriate to use terms such as Avatar. However Avatars can also function as Prophets

[shivaathervedi_2]

Please note that MSMS considered Shri Krishna and Shri Rama as Prophets.

Please note that Memoirs is directed to he public, especially the Western audience, hence it would be inappropriate to use terms such as Avatar. However Avatars can also function as Prophets

You wrote," Avtars can also funtion as Prophets".
According to ginans there were 124,000 or 180,000 Prophets. How will you fit these so many Avtars in Dus Avtar theory?

Memoirs was directed not only towards westerners but that was for Ismailis also. Memoirs was sold on Jk book counters. There were special lectures arranged for Ismailis at that time. Memoirs was translated in Gujrati, Sindhi and Urdu languages for jamaits to read.

[kmaherali]

You wrote," Avtars can also funtion as Prophets".
According to ginans there were 124,000 or 180,000 Prophets. How will you fit these so many Avtars in Dus Avtar theory?

Memoirs was directed not only towards westerners but that was for Ismailis also. Memoirs was sold on Jk book counters. There were special lectures arranged for Ismailis at that time. Memoirs was translated in Gujrati, Sindhi and Urdu languages for jamaits to read.

When I say avtars can also function as prophets, it does not mean that all prophets are avtars. Just as when I say the Imam can also function as a Peer, it does not mean that all Peers are Imams.

Any literature or a document which is directed to non-Ismailis will have a different articulation which may or may not accord with Ismaili understanding. Hence according Ismailism, Sri Ram was not only a Prophet but much more.

[shivaathervedi_2]

You wrote," Avtars can also funtion as Prophets".
According to ginans there were 124,000 or 180,000 Prophets. How will you fit these so many Avtars in Dus Avtar theory?

Memoirs was directed not only towards westerners but that was for Ismailis also. Memoirs was sold on Jk book counters. There were special lectures arranged for Ismailis at that time. Memoirs was translated in Gujrati, Sindhi and Urdu languages for jamaits to read.

When I say avtars can also function as prophets, it does not mean that all prophets are avtars. Just as when I say the Imam can also function as a Peer, it does not mean that all Peers are Imams.

Any literature or a document which is directed to non-Ismailis will have a different articulation which may or may not accord with Ismaili understanding. Hence according Ismailism, Sri Ram was not only a Prophet but much more.

As a rule of thumb or a general rule, when one Prophet is Avtar means his fellow brother Prophets should be Avtars. In a Hadith (some where I read) Prophhet Muhammad said, " we the Prophets of Allah are like brothers. We have the same mission".
Let us take your opinion 'all Prophets are not Avtars', my take, how many out of 124,000 Prophets you can accept as Avtars, 50%, 25% or even 10%.

From time of MSMS Piratan is merged with Imamat. Till today I don't understand why Piratan was merged with Imamat. What are the reasons, it can be debated. WHEN IMAM IS ACTIVE PIR IS SAMIT.

When Memoirs was published in 1954, it was announced in all JKS. There was no Hidayat from Imam that such and such paragraphs or portions are prohibited for Ismailis, they should not dare to read them.

You wrote,"Hence according Ismailism, Sri Ram was not only a Prophet but much more". Your this statement shows you are admitting Shri Ram was a PROPHET and then much more.

[Admin]

From time of MSMS Piratan is merged with Imamat.

According to the need of time, Imamat and Piratan Noor can manisfest both in the same person. From what I see in manuscript, Imam used to tell the Pir "Transmit this farman to my jamat and explain it to them". Pir was making then the Farman on behalf of Imam and explaining it on his own behalf. Exactly like Hazar Imam do, when he says a Farman and add what does your Imam mean? and he continues with the explanation. Many Farmans are made in such a way as a learned person would notice the Farman by the Imam and the Explanation by the PIr.

It is wrong to say that Imamat and Piratan have merged now. This is inaccurate. Many Imams in the Past (at least a dozen times) were also Pir at the same time. I suggest you learn about the genealogy of the Pir so you can see where you have missed the boat.

http://www.ismaili.net/histoire/chart7.html

[kmaherali]

As a rule of thumb or a general rule, when one Prophet is Avtar means his fellow brother Prophets should be Avtars. In a Hadith (some where I read) Prophhet Muhammad said, " we the Prophets of Allah are like brothers. We have the same mission".
Let us take your opinion 'all Prophets are not Avtars', my take, how many out of 124,000 Prophets you can accept as Avtars, 50%, 25% or even 10%.

Forget about complex theological examples. Let us consider a worldly or practical situation. If a manager can function as a clerk, does it mean that all clerks are managers?

[kmaherali]

It is wrong to say that Imamat and Piratan have merged now. This is inaccurate. Many Imams in the Past (at least a dozen times) were also Pir at the same time. I suggest you learn about the genealogy of the Pir so you can see where you have missed the boat.

http://www.ismaili.net/histoire/chart7.html

I think Imamat and Piratan are always merged. The Imam is the GurNar or ShahPir. However when he delegates the role of Piratan to another individual, then he ceases to function as the Pir.

[shivaathervedi_2]

[quote="Admin"]

Many Farmans are made in such a way as a learned person would notice the Farman by the Imam and the Explanation by the PIr.

Reply:
What a strange explanation," Only learned persons would notice the Farman is made by Imam and explained by Pir".
What about unlearned and illiterate persons?
Did Imam said," My spiritual children, I am making this Farman as Imam and when I finish will explain the said Farman as Pir"?

[shivaathervedi_2]

As a rule of thumb or a general rule, when one Prophet is Avtar means his fellow brother Prophets should be Avtars. In a Hadith (some where I read) Prophhet Muhammad said, " we the Prophets of Allah are like brothers. We have the same mission".
Let us take your opinion 'all Prophets are not Avtars', my take, how many out of 124,000 Prophets you can accept as Avtars, 50%, 25% or even 10%.

Forget about complex theological examples. Let us consider a worldly or practical situation. If a manager can function as a clerk, does it mean that all clerks are managers?

A manager knows the work of a clerk and is an authorized person by CEO. Where as a clerk is not an authorized person. He doesn't know the accounting, can't make deals with vendors, can't sign the bank checks. A manager is round the clock responsible for business, where as a clerk is responsible for his shift only.

[kmaherali]

A manager knows the work of a clerk and is an authorized person by CEO. Where as a clerk is not an authorized person. He doesn't know the accounting, can't make deals with vendors, can't sign the bank checks. A manager is round the clock responsible for business, where as a clerk is responsible for his shift only.

Similarly, when we say that an Avatar can function as a Prophet, it does not follow that all Prophets are Avatars.

[shivaathervedi_2]

It is wrong to say that Imamat and Piratan have merged now. This is inaccurate. Many Imams in the Past (at least a dozen times) were also Pir at the same time. I suggest you learn about the genealogy of the Pir so you can see where you have missed the boat.

http://www.ismaili.net/histoire/chart7.html

I think Imamat and Piratan are always merged. The Imam is the GurNar or ShahPir. However when he delegates the role of Piratan to another individual, then he ceases to function as the Pir.

There is a book in Ismaili Tariqa having status of a Pir. Did Imam delegated some of his authority as a Pir to this book. Is this book walking talking entity?

[kmaherali]

There is a book in Ismaili Tariqa having status of a Pir. Did Imam delegated some of his authority as a Pir to this book. Is this book walking talking entity?

A book can serve as a vehicle of guidance just as a person.

[shivaathervedi_2]

A manager knows the work of a clerk and is an authorized person by CEO. Where as a clerk is not an authorized person. He doesn't know the accounting, can't make deals with vendors, can't sign the bank checks. A manager is round the clock responsible for business, where as a clerk is responsible for his shift only.

Similarly, when we say that an Avatar can function as a Prophet, it does not follow that all Prophets are Avatars.

In other way all Avtars are not at same level either or only selected Avtars are Prophets.

[shivaathervedi_2]

There is a book in Ismaili Tariqa having status of a Pir. Did Imam delegated some of his authority as a Pir to this book. Is this book walking talking entity?

A book can serve as a vehicle of guidance just as a person.

At that time how many converted knew Persian in subcontinent to get guidance from that book. I assume only one or two copies were sent to subcontinent. There was no Amazon.com at that time.