Unconditioned Reality,Universal Soul,Universal Intellect.etc

[Admin]

Questions Might be sound Foolish or Silly but i am sorry i am having trouble understanding these concept Thank You
Moula Ali Madad

Your questions are not foolish. In fact, they are not only relevant but they are also part of our intellectual tradition and our debating tradition. These questions cover a lot of ground. I notice they are more in line with the public doctrine of the Fatimid period. In the Alamut period, of course the Imam's status as Essence is higher and precedes the Aql-i-Qul, the Universal Intellect which is the seat of all the attributes and that we call Allah. That aspect is discussed in another thread.

I would suggest that you divide your post into different topic and post them in appropriate existing thread whenever possible. Go though the list of topics in the Doctrine section, you will see plenty of interesting thread, some that have replied to part of your questions.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad I am having some question about God As Unconditioned Reality And About Universal Intellect , Universal Soul , Pirs ,Prophets ,Imam which are as follow .
1.) As God is Above everything , So does it mean that Universal Intellect takes test? or The Universal Soul?
2.) Whats Ismaili Point of view on Tests Of Life , Which are taken by God , Are these same as Sunni and other muslim views
3.) Why Do God/Universal Intellect Takes Test when he already know what is going to happen
4.) If we consider God as Unconditioned Reality, Why do we call him as He ? or even normally , Why People Call or visualize God As Masculine
5.) Thinking Of God as Unconditioned Reality , Which Means he does not depend on anyone , But Isnt God Depend on Prophets and Imam so its creation can recognize him , Like If is not dependable on anyone , why do he need prophets and imam or any other being for transmission of his message ?
6.) If 99 names of Allah , Are applied to Universal Intellect , then why Universal Soul Created Everything , not Universal Intellect , And Whats are the Qualities or Attributes of Universal Soul .
7.) Even if we are bad soul [ the sinful one] are we still going to unite to Universal Soul isnt this going to make her Impure .
8.)First thing ever created was Universal Intellect and in Hadith there is mention of Pen , Book , And Light of Prophet Muhammad . So Why Do We consider Imam as Reflection/Manifestation of Universal Intellect if first ever thing created was Prophet Light ? Why Universal Intellect is Called Muhammadan Reality , Why Universal Soul is not called Muhammadan Reality
9.) If we consider Prophet Muhammad as a Pir , so does it mean that Pirs are also Prophet ?
10.) What is the difference between Imam and Prophet , as whatever authority Prophet also Imam have .
11.) Is Revelation is from of Quran is from Allah or From Universal Intellect ? as Allah is beyond Knowledge . Or is prophet reading/translating the spiritual knowledge as he is manifestation of Universal Soul so whatever Knowledge Universal Soul have , also Prophet have .
12.) Is it really important to follow Quran as a source of life or Farmans of Imam are enough , i mean As He is manifestation of Universal Intellect , He Know More , Than Prophet (if prophet is reciting from Universal Soul's Knowledge)
13.) O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result. [Surah Nisa , 59] Why Do Quran says that If you disagree over anything refer it to Allah and the messenger , How can we disagree from Imam , As he is designated by Nass
My Native Language is Urdu , My english is not that Good , So Sorry If i wrote anything wrong

Questions Might be sound Foolish or Silly but i am sorry i am having trouble understanding these concept Thank You
Moula Ali Madad

Explaination of questions 1 - 6.

In my opinion:
Past 1400 years Imami Ismaili's (followers of Mowla Ali) philosophy about cosmology have been changing. Ismaili doctrines circle around Noorullah. Starting with Prophet Muhammad comes Natiq and Asas followed by Imam Mustaqar and Imam Mastoudah. Then Imam Baqir's famous Hadith about intellect. Fallowed by Foundation of Fiqa e Ja'fariah (Ismailis follow madhab e Ja'fariah as Hazar Imam said).Then Dour e satar and epistels of Ikhwan e Safa which changed the thinking of Islamic intellectualism. In Fatimid period adoption of Greece Neo Platinism philosophy, Ismaili Dais and philosophers deviced formula of absolute Reality- Universal Intellect- Universal Soul. In post Fatimid period came philosophy of essence of absolute that is Imam of time. In post Alamout period in time of Imam Qasim Shah and Imam Islam Shah came in Satpunthi philosophy Which changed to Islamic Pluralism philosophy by Hazar Imam Shah Karim Al Hussaini. Though philosophies have been changing but one thing "silsila e Imamat" has not changed, it is rigid and will continue till dooms day. Regarding these changing aspects of philosophies of different times, Imam has explained I quote," These are merely tools of comprihension but goal is the same". To understand trail of Ismaili philosophies in changing times, there are hundreds of books in various languages and to read and understand them is time consuming.
The selection of questions suggest you are influenced by Fatimid period Philosophy, where as approach of Satpunthy philosophy is different in comparison to Fatimid philosophy. In Ginanic literature there is no mention of Natiq and Asas philisophy. Ginans are not impressed by philisophy of universal Intellect or Universal Soul. The Ginanc Lord is NIRIJIN, ALAKH. Your mostly questions can be understood by applying concept of WAHDATAL WUJUD i.e He is all in all or He is every thing, that's how the question about Prophets, Imams, Pirs, saints, lover and beloved will vanish. God is neither He nor She, because Noor is not a substance. Allah is Noor and is all over, there are no dimentions for Noor.

In reply to your question 7; there is accountability for every soul. God's system works on reward and punishment. Sinful soul will be punished for bad deeds, made pure then will get salvation.

Answer to question 8; Imam is Mazhar of Noorullah. Noor e Muhammadi and Noor e Ali is same.

In response to your question 9; The status of Prophet is above Pir, a Pir can not be called Prophet.

Reply to question 10; Noor e Mustafavi and Noor e Murtazavi is same. Mission of both is Hidayat to mankind. Prophet Muhammad is Khatem e Nubuwat, there is no Prophet after Muhammad but God continued the seat of Imamat for guidance of mankind (not just for Ismailis according to me).

Answer to question 11; To understand spiritual language or revelation, Quran has used the word RAQEEM, which Prophets, Imams, and chosen ones know.

Reply to question 12; According to PREAMBLE , an Ismaili must follow Quran as interpreted by Imam. Imam never gives Hidayat beyond the frame work of Quran.

Respnse to question 13; In Surah Nisa/59 first there is mention of Allah, then Prophet, and then Ulil Amr. Allah's message is in Quran. It is foundation and frame work which all Muslims have to obey. Prophet explained rules and principles mentioned in Quran for further generations Imam is legatee of Rasuland his responsibilty is to explain and give Hidayat according changing times. If some one is not adopting the Hidayat or disagrees with it that is not beneficial to him. For example Quran says consumption of alcohol is prohibited. But modern man says, look there is no mention of beer, cigerretts or drugs mentioned in Quran so I can use it. Now here comes the responsibily of Imam to prohibit and advice people to stop that habit because it is not good for general and mental health. So Imams mission is continued whether any one listens not or agrees not because God's message is not to harm body. Therefore Imam's Hidayat is in agrement with Alla's and Rasul's Hidayat.

Hazar Imam has made modern day Ismailism simple, learn the meaning of Du'a and follow the Preamble of our constitution mostly all questions creeping in mind shall be solved.

[Admin]

As I said, if you do not divide your questions and put them in appropriate thread, you will have here a Kichro and a chevdo if you know Indian food. And you will be more confused instead of been enlightened

For example on the Status of the Light of Piratan which is Aql i Qul itself, there is already a discussion in the Forum. And of course today according to the Will of Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah, Mowlana Shah Karim is at the same time Imam and PIR of ALL Ismailis.

Some of the answers to your questions are in Khat Nirinjan... I suggest you read this article titled "The Concept of God Beyond God in the Khat Nirinjan of Pir Sadardin" which is as attachment on:

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/29733

[nuseri]

To Fayaz vallani: Ya Ali MADAD.
Welcome to the forum and wish your family a blessed Diamond jubilee Mubarak.
1.you have asked many questions at one go.and few look overlapping and similar.
2.if you can one one answer about your belief in MHI.
do you consider him as Imam or even beyond that of GOD ?
because that would relate to your acceptance or suspect as our is esoteric form of faith.
Most the questions are discussed earlier.to which admin or kmaherali can guide to.

To Admin:
It is high time if you along with some senior members filter out the postings of haqiaqti members with essense,reasoning of the topic already existing.(50 out of 5000 postings)
I am sure it can it can be valuable resource to the above new members ,alwaez and even IIS faculty.
One non Ismaili at shariat level can mislead a good tariqati or a haqiqati would feel that this website feels unblessed.
There are some past postings of tret,kmaherali,and myself.
Remember seeking out jewels from junk is quality job and collecting all in quantity with no quality choosing can be a work of Kabaadi.

[FayyazValani2017]

Ya Ali Madad
Firstly i want to thanks Admin and fellow community members for responding and taking interest .

To Admin ,
Brother i dont know how to divide my post , can you help me with that , i am sorry for that .
Thank you for the link , i am reading that.


To Shivathervedi ,
Thank you for giving such a detailed answer , Appreciate your effort brother
I am confused what philosophy is right? You Quoted a farman of Imam that
"These are merely tools of comprehension but goal is the same". But Arent All these philosophy are different , i am sorry for that i am not saying anything like Imam is wrong , I might have not understand correctly , but One is saying God is Unconditioned Reality , One is Saying God is Nur , One is saying God is Everything .
If God is unconditioned reality , why does he depend on prophets and imam to convey message . except this , I find this philosophy Logical not saying other are illogical , my way of understanding is not correct may be.

If God is nur , then what are angels , if Surah Ikhlas says that There is no one like him, how can God be Nur and Angels are also made up of Nur , I think there will be types of Nur or something but still this will affect that Wahidaniat of God , And Uniqueness and oneness of God , If we consider God as Nur
If God is Everything , So Everything is God too , So this will also affect Wahhadiniat and Uniqueness of God . I haven't study Last 2 philosophies in detail , so i dont have enough information about it , but i am judging from what you said .
I find all these 3 philosophy different . Please Help in this one .

2.) If Status of prophet is above , according to fatimid philosophy , why do we consider both of them Mazhar of Universal Soul , in that sense imam will also be having different status .

3.) This may sound completely "Anti-Ismaili" Thing , But Are Imam allowed to interpret some part of the Quran , i mean Like If Imam only choose some of the aya or surah and say Follow this , I mean i know we are followers of Tariqah not Shariah , so We will be having different practices , but still Is Imam allowed to leave some verses or chapters and imposed rest on community , I hope you got my point :p

4.) I Think there is mention of Brahma vishnu etc in Ginan . So pir use Brahma for Universal Soul or things like that i think?
It would be easier for me to understand your answer if you clear these queries , as i am having little problem understanding it .

To Nuseri
Moula Ali Madad .
Thank you for greeting .
As Shivathervedi brother said , i am following Fatimid philosophy , So i consider God as Beyond Everything , he transcends all attributes and name , So I consider as Mazhar of Universal Intellect [to whom all the attributes of Allah apply]. No one can be beyond God . then he would be God instead of God himself .

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
You have tariqati level neverthe less blessed level of our faith.
So when we say in tasbih grant us your zahiri,baatin and noorani didar?
So what is the baatin and noorani didar of HAZAR IMAM as you sound informed ,posted questions to test the members.
Does qasida of shams Tabriz or syedna nasir khusraw address or express their conviction to Ali as God.?
Not of any hunzai ,etc compostion of poems MHI as Mazar.?
Hz Ali has said He is the creator.?
MHI has said he is bearer of NOOR.
and in farman in London that there is nobody above NOOR of ALI and in a speech IMAMAT is beyond comprehension .
To debate with suspect or ignorant of baatn is after 10 oages of debate the question ,who could be Alllah in quran or lord krishna in gita or jesus in bible .
God bless you with your IMAAN.
If one suspects the words of Imam said by themselves. So it straight forward having faith of suspicion. Live by it till whoever you assume as God his sight ( baatin didar) and communicate two way with him within your heart and ability to see him at will( Noorani didar).

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad
Firstly i want to thanks Admin and fellow community members for responding and taking interest .

To Admin ,
Brother i dont know how to divide my post , can you help me with that , i am sorry for that .
Thank you for the link , i am reading that.


To Shivathervedi ,
Thank you for giving such a detailed answer , Appreciate your effort brother
I am confused what philosophy is right? You Quoted a farman of Imam that
"These are merely tools of comprehension but goal is the same". But Arent All these philosophy are different , i am sorry for that i am not saying anything like Imam is wrong , I might have not understand correctly , but One is saying God is Unconditioned Reality , One is Saying God is Nur , One is saying God is Everything .
If God is unconditioned reality , why does he depend on prophets and imam to convey message . except this , I find this philosophy Logical not saying other are illogical , my way of understanding is not correct may be.

If God is nur , then what are angels , if Surah Ikhlas says that There is no one like him, how can God be Nur and Angels are also made up of Nur , I think there will be types of Nur or something but still this will affect that Wahidaniat of God , And Uniqueness and oneness of God , If we consider God as Nur
If God is Everything , So Everything is God too , So this will also affect Wahhadiniat and Uniqueness of God . I haven't study Last 2 philosophies in detail , so i dont have enough information about it , but i am judging from what you said .
I find all these 3 philosophy different . Please Help in this one .

2.) If Status of prophet is above , according to fatimid philosophy , why do we consider both of them Mazhar of Universal Soul , in that sense imam will also be having different status .

3.) This may sound completely "Anti-Ismaili" Thing , But Are Imam allowed to interpret some part of the Quran , i mean Like If Imam only choose some of the aya or surah and say Follow this , I mean i know we are followers of Tariqah not Shariah , so We will be having different practices , but still Is Imam allowed to leave some verses or chapters and imposed rest on community , I hope you got my point :p

4.) I Think there is mention of Brahma vishnu etc in Ginan . So pir use Brahma for Universal Soul or things like that i think?
It would be easier for me to understand your answer if you clear these queries , as i am having little problem understanding it .

To Nuseri
Moula Ali Madad .
Thank you for greeting .
As Shivathervedi brother said , i am following Fatimid philosophy , So i consider God as Beyond Everything , he transcends all attributes and name , So I consider as Mazhar of Universal Intellect [to whom all the attributes of Allah apply]. No one can be beyond God . then he would be God instead of God himself .

4.) I Think there is mention of Brahma vishnu etc in Ginan . So pir use Brahma for Universal Soul or things like that i think?
It would be easier for me to understand your answer if you clear these queries , as i am having little problem understanding it . icon_razz.gif


In my opinion:
While answering your 13 questions I started my previuos post writung "In my opinion". As you try to solve cosmological and metaphysical questions by using intellect so do I.
When our Dais preached and propagated Ismailism they came across different masses speaking different languages, having different cultures, and belong to different religions and cults. Our Dais learnt local languages, adopted their culture, their philosophies, and blended Ismaili Madhab with their religious thoughts and practices to bent them to Ismailism. With success there came failures also. With Arab population approach was different, With Farsi people was different, and with the population of subcontinent was different, therefore how these different philosophies came into being. Because of these different philosophies which were adopted at different places at different times created confusion in the youth and educated persons of modern era, i.e which philosophy is right and which one is wrong. Therefore to clear the air Imam explained," These are merely tools of comprehension but goal (maqsad) is the same". In modern times Imam simplified our Tariqa and philosophy to satisfy the jamaits and particularly youth. IMAM GAVE PREAMBLE WHICH IS UNIVERSAL FOR ISMAILIS. Every Ismaili has to follow articles of Peramble. Preamble clarified many questions which youth and jamaiti members asked frequently. That is why I always insist to read and understand PREAMBLE to satisfy queries.

For further study I suggest you and every one to read the book named " A HISTORY OF GOD " written by KAREN ARMSTRONG, also to understand spiritual side of our Tariqa read the book named "THE SECRET OF ANA'L HAQQ" (translated from Farsi into English by Khan Saheb Khaja Khan). Both books should be available at ITREB library Karachi. (I assume you are from Karachi)

Let me ask you. Have you seen Allah? The answer should be NO. When a person can't see God, how can one describe Him!! Allah said," WA LAM YA KULAHU KUFUWAN AHAD".
Buddah said," Do not think about God you will be confused. Do meditation and get Nirvana". You wrote, you speak Urdu. Here is a couplet for you.

FALSAFI KO BAHAS MEY KHUDA MILTA NAHI(N)
DORR KO SULJHA RAHA HAI PER SIRA MILTA NAHI(N)

Allah is noor as mentioned in Quran. Whole universe is Noor, every particle is Noor. Now, What is definition of Noor? Every Muslim describe according to his/her thinking. Hazar Imam has explained Noor as light, though it is not like worldly light. I define it as BINDING FORCE IN UNIVERSE, UNIVERSE EXISTS BECAUSE OF NOOR. IF THERE IS NO NOOR THE UNIVERS WILL COLLAPSE.

1. You wrote," If God is every thing then every thing is God too". In my previous post I mentioned about concept of WAHDATAL WUJUD, your question can be understood through this concept. I mentioned above 'every particle in universe is Noor of Allah. Regarding humans let me mention a sufi saying:
GAR TU KHUDA DANI KHUDAI ( if you think you are God then you are God )

2/4. The scheme of imanation in Fatimid era explains there is no seperation, differenciation or distance in three entities, they are one i.e Absolute Reality, Universal Intellect, and Universal soul. In Ginanic literature they are Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva. In this scheme Brahama (Muhammad) comes first followed by Vishnu (Ali), and poor Shiva is kept at distance. The Ginanic verses are:

NABI MUHAMMAD BHUJU BHAI
TOU TAMEY PAMO IMAM

3. Regarding your 3rd query please refer to Preamble. Preamble says in our Tariqa it is the Imam of time to interpret Quran. (NO WHERE IN PREAMBLE IS MENTIONED PARTS OF QURAN). Do not mind let me ask you, do you believe in 'Ismaili Shari'ah'? Let me quote from Ginan:

EJI PAHLI MANO SHARIYAT
TARIQAT AUR HAQIQAT
MA'RIFAT KO MON MEY MAAR
TUM CHET MON MERA....

[Admin]

Please do not bring always the same subject in all the threads. This is not abour Shariat, there are other thread for that. You whole post which is otherwise very interesting will be deleted because of that.

Also there is another thread of discussion on what really is the Quran and what is a mortal compilation by unauthorised people. This is not the subject unless you have understood that the Noor coming from the Imam is itself the Quran.

I repeat, for everyone, do not mix here everything, the thread here is not called Khitchro nor is it called chewdo. Stick to the thread especially for subjects which have been discussed in length over tens of pageseleswhere in the Forum. Thank you.

Admin

[nuseri]

Ya Ali MADAD:
Our faith is simple. Pirs,dais wrote so our ancestors could be inspired that was their ambition,mandate.
All that material is part of our traditions.So are not not absolute binding but FARMANS are.
Make pirs,dai as cult hero and assuming what they wrote is Final is a wrong assumption.
Farman is there for ibaadat to know God/Noor of Ali.
They require only two word.
So one can come out of clutter of million words ,some may look contradicting. is absolutely CLASH OF IGNORANCE.observe what was the core faith of Pir,Dai who were greater human and super intellects ,compare that with oneself ,if one cannot think like them ,so one cannot understand what they wrote as well regardless how good is ones ability.
Our identification only gets completed with shahada the TAWHID THEREIN.
if one is blind/ignorant to that word than constitutionally he could be incomplete Ismaili at admission level.
Tawhid mean feeling and achieving that with God.
To become one with anybody ,common sense says.
One must know that somebody and how to become one with that and whether somebody is willing it to be it part.
How can one achieve tawhid ,which various assumptions are made.that ( none is mentioned in Quran)
He is formless, faceless,deaf, invisible ,useless.
So with these assumptions even daily prayers are WASTED forget the process to tawhid.
Word sharia was used in poems 700-1000 years back as the audience were attracted to that level( non Muslims).even in a poem I wrote I have used that word how they saw ALI as.( it was second last/patia on ladder of five.).SHARIAT O KA KHALIF TUHI.
If one can consider the tradition material as prospectus to an university ,then Farman, Ibadaat etc the MAIN SYLLABUS takes over will be more contended,blessed and well directed Ismaili.
There is zahir and baatin interpretation even of ginan /qasidas
With a faith of suspect one CAN NEVER NEVER know.
To be haqiqati is first qualification to know basics of baatin.
Imam SMS said to ignore the braying and barking of zahiris undermining our faith.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali MADAD:
Our faith is simple. Pirs,dais wrote so our ancestors could be inspired that was their ambition,mandate.
All that material is part of our traditions.So are not not absolute binding but FARMANS are.
Make pirs,dai as cult hero and assuming what they wrote is Final is a wrong assumption.
Farman is there for ibaadat to know God/Noor of Ali.
They require only two word.
So one can come out of clutter of million words ,some may look contradicting. is absolutely CLASH OF IGNORANCE.observe what was the core faith of Pir,Dai who were greater human and super intellects ,compare that with oneself ,if one cannot think like them ,so one cannot understand what they wrote as well regardless how good is ones ability.
Our identification only gets completed with shahada the TAWHID THEREIN.
if one is blind/ignorant to that word than constitutionally he could be incomplete Ismaili at admission level.
Tawhid mean feeling and achieving that with God.
To become one with anybody ,common sense says.
One must know that somebody and how to become one with that and whether somebody is willing it to be it part.
How can one achieve tawhid ,which various assumptions are made.that ( none is mentioned in Quran)
He is formless, faceless,deaf, invisible ,useless.
So with these assumptions even daily prayers are WASTED forget the process to tawhid.
Word sharia was used in poems 700-1000 years back as the audience were attracted to that level( non Muslims).even in a poem I wrote I have used that word how they saw ALI as.( it was second last/patia on ladder of five.).SHARIAT O KA KHALIF TUHI.
If one can consider the tradition material as prospectus to an university ,then Farman, Ibadaat etc the MAIN SYLLABUS takes over will be more contended,blessed and well directed Ismaili.
There is zahir and baatin interpretation even of ginan /qasidas
With a faith of suspect one CAN NEVER NEVER know.
To be haqiqati is first qualification to know basics of baatin.
Imam SMS said to ignore the braying and barking of zahiris undermining our faith.

Instead of this sermon, it was better you should have addressed the questions a new comer asked. Instead of answering you are discouraging him. Same rhetoric is not helpful.

[Admin]

Instead of this sermon, it was better you should have addressed the questions a new comer asked. Instead of answering you are discouraging him. Same rhetoric is not helpful.

I think this is one of the very rare occurrence where I totally agree with Shivaathervedi. So let me tell you the same thing I have told Shivaathervadi in the past: If you have answers, give them. If you do not have answers, let other people who may have some answers or some interpretation, giver theirs.

[shivaathervedi]

FayyazValani2017

Joined: 16 Sep 2017
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:11 am Post subject: Confusions and Questions Need Help Reply with quote
Ya Ali Madad
Allahumma Salli Ala Muhammadin Va Aale Muhammad[recite the holy salwat]

I got few confusions and questions and a kichdi kinda thing is formed in my mind . These are short questions so i think making different threads/post wont be right? . I am somewhat between Shriat-Tariqat-Haqiqat
It would be easy to understand if you give answer as your are answering a Haqiqati ismaili , As Marifat is my goal and to reach i want to learn haqiqat first
Thank You

1.) Ali as Allah
In my brain the concept of Ali Allah is . That normally Shariati brothers would say Allah is rehman , rahim etc , so for them the image of Allah is the one who is most Rehman , Most rahim ,Creator etc that is Allah for them . And As Tariqati Concept is That All the attributes and names of Allah are applied to Universal Intellect [Ali , Vishnu , God The Attributes]And Universal Soul[Brahma,Mohammad] [correct me if wrong] , And Allah is
khat nirinjan , alakh nirinjan , unconditioned reality , beyond human thoughts .So with that concept , As Universal Intellect have all the attributes , So He is the Allah and Universal intellect name is Ali,Vishnu so Vishnu and Ali are Allah ? and the imam we have bear the noor of them or they are their reflection ? So They are not Allah but Ali which is Universal intellect is Allah , or Do we consider Hazrat Ali or Hazir Imam as Allah What is it actually ? i dont know is that right?

and If All attributes are applied to Universal Soul also , why is she not God [is it because Universal intellect is actually perfect but Universal Soul is not completely perfect]

2.) Why Do God Test Us
I got a answer from a reddit user [might be ismaili] named MuslimAcademic

He said He dont take test , Then where all the hardship etc come from , i mean if he dont take test , then why we have all the problem , and some born physically disabled , some mentally etc like that why is that if he dont take test , i mean that would be useless.
And If he is taking test , then Who is taking test , the God [khat nirinjan] or the Universal Intellect [Ali]
and Why is he taking test

3.) Whats the difference between Pir and Prophet
If pir is appointed by Imam , then why Prophet is appointed by God
and in this case by which God ? Ali or The Khat Nirinjan
And are all prophets were pir or only Prophet Muhammad was a pir

4.) Why Imams before Moula Ali are not in our dua . And as Prophet Abraham was a imam etc . And We Consider that there has to be an imam/guide in every age , Har Zamaney me imam/guide ka hona lazmi ha.
So before Imam Ali there has to be a imam

5.) Prophet Muhammad
Prophet muhammad was chosen as a prophet by Ali/Allah because of his Batini Bandagi[Correct me if wrong]
, In the same way do all the Prophet got chosen ?

6.) Quran
Quran comes from root word Qirat ,which means Recitation , So Quran is recitation of Prophet Muhammad , As Universal Soul inspire Prophet And Prophet said whatever he received he recited in arabic in a poetic way , but (1) Does it contain words of Prophet too , i mean words like of Fighting with Kufar , or any law statement , etc like that . or it was also from Universal Soul , and is there any hidden meaning in verses of war etc , if yes please mention that
And If it was recitation of prophet , then why his hadith are not in the quran i mean Prophet said so many things , then Why not all sayings/recitation are in the Quran , Did prophet told them that this is for Quran or somthing like that , Sorry my history is weak :p
And i dont know if i am right but There are verses which say Prophet role is also to Interpretate the

7.) Pornography
Taharat = Purity
So In that Case Pornography is also haram right , i am a huge porn addict and masturbating was a normal thing for me , and It is very common here in teenagers , I have also read farman of Hazir Imam , in which he said To Keep Your Eyes , ears , mouth pious , Although Source/Reference was not mention there if anyone can , it would be Good , and It was also Hadith of Prophet to dont do the Zina of Eyes , and so many more farmans and ahadiths , but still i sometimes when cant control my nafs i do watch , which is sad , is there any way i can stop doing all that? I should spent my time in bandagi right?


REPLYTO FAYYAZ:

You are not a confused person, contrary showing your smartness with different colors. You have repetion of questions and keep openings new threads when discussion on your questions already exists in various threads and Admin is right in this direction.

In my previous post I addressed your questions but you repeated few again. Ismailism is a simple Tariqa and Imam has explained in a simple way the TENETS os Ismailism. If you are still an Ismaili please follow the guidance. In different times Ismailis adopted dirrent philosophies according to changing times. Pro Farimid period, Fatimid period, Almout perriod, post Almout period, Satpunthi Tariqa with sufi touches, and for time being Sunni Hanafi Tariqa. In my opinion these all philosophical ideas and different Tariqas created confussion, therefore Imam gave us a simple explanation of Ismaili Tariqa in modern times univerally for all Ismails. It is duty of Ismailis to follow PREAMBLE.

I already explained you that status of Pirs is not higher than Prophets. In our Du'a there is no mention of Pirs with names like names of Imams.

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was by birth Prophet and his Prophethhod was not out come of his bandagi.

The problem with mostly khoja Satpunthis is that they ignore Quran. If they have/had studied Quran then the questions like you have asked should have not been around. Revealation of Quran and Hadiths (sayings of Prophet) are two different things.

You look sick minded. What your masturbation or if you are a gay, has to do with Heritage Forum. This is or was your bad habit. You should have will power to control it. Bandagi ot remembering Allah can help but it is your will power which plays main roll OR if you are established in your life get married. This is not a porno Forum. Read ethical Farmans made by MSMS and present Imam.

[AJD]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxo4uN ... 9NRDg/view

The above link might be useful to Fayyaz.

Ali Jan
Karachi, Pakistan
+92-321-2744563

[nuseri]

To Fayyaz: YA ALI MADAD.
As I assume that your zahiri level of understanding but good reading ability.
More you read ,believe one word,after one page suspect other word.that will clutter your mind and still keep you in confused state of mind.
My simple answer what does MHI call you as.
As his spiritual child.So be he by default and our affirmation Spiritual father.
I have made a post in topic Farman ,an understqnding.
This word in persain doctrine may corelate to Nafsekul.at zahiri level you will think as Imam but at baatin and truth that is God.
So Sufi,sau n pir claim him to be ,BEST is believe in MHI what he claims to be.

[FayyazValani2017]

Ya Ali Madad Everyone

I am sorry for repeating the same topic over and over again . I wont be doing that in future .

Thank you for responding everyone , i respect your answers and appreciate your efforts and time

I want to make 2-3 things clear here
I was born ismaili , i had few issues in understanding ismailism , then i came across Ismailignosis.com, After learning from there , i got alot of my problems solved . i am just 17 , i am interested in religious study , i want to become a Al-waez also . My brain is not as fast as your brain , Sometimes i do get confuse . and because i dont have much knowledge of english , sometimes its hard to comprehend what you guys want to say .

Thank You
May Moula Bless You All With Barakat & Knowledge .

[AJD]

Brother which country are you from??
What is your first language??

It's not about the brain. It's through HIS blessings that one attain the knowledge.

Apaar Rangiya Toe Na Rangiyaa

You attain infinitely...Yet you attain nothing
So, it's all HIS grace.
Nice knowing your interest. I hope to receive answers from you.

Ali Jan Damani
Independent Scholar
Karachi, Pakistan
+92-321-2744563
[email protected]

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
Keep your interest in Ismailsm doctrines GOING STRONG..In simple language.
PEHLE APNAA IMAAN MAZBOOT KARO ,PHIR DUSRO KA IMAAN BADHANEE KI KOSHISH KARO.
this says it all.
To AJD: I assume you are a publicity hungry.like an ignorant child trying to post your fone number, location,etc.
You stay in a country where tolerance for haqiqat aspect is low or none by the majority,they can get physical easily.You could be inviting harm by exposing yourself by just being an Ismaili blogger ,regardless you indulge in 85% unwarranted material called as Ginans.digging in it for zahiri,low grade,value words finding ( of peninsula,region or bay) It has made you now a kabaadi ( scavenger of junk). So all finding will be junk and your full life wasted.Need to change your track in research.
Pls note that this forum has pvt mail facility, So immediately change pone number,so a fanatic may not be able to call & locate you.
With new fone number communicate discreetly to any members on one to one basis.
Let the kabaadi in you ease off with old fone number ,be a bit mature scholar with new identity and contacts.
I feel concerned as many times I do feel things ahead of times.
May Ali bless you both in Ruhani Roshini.

[FayyazValani2017]

Moula Ali Madad
Brother Nuseri , with all due respect , why you are so rude?
I am not trying to teach someone or Kesi ka iman bhadhaney nhi aya ho me , I am here to learn . Sorry

To AJD :
Ya Ali Madad
i am from Pakistan , Karachi
I speak mostly Urdu , and you know the schooling system of Pakistan , my english is not that much good .

It will be nice if we can have a bit of discussion on facebook , You might clear my confusion , if yes please tell me , My email is [email protected]
here is my profile "link"Link[/url]

[nuseri]

To fayaz: Ya Ali Madad.
I posted candidly the truth, it may have sounded rude to you.
Ours is baatin, Sufi ,esoteric tariqa.
So a teacher/Alwaez need to be qualified to tell others.
Must be able to tell with conviction, reasoning
And oratory skill what is baatin & noorani didar ?,for which we pray daily and what the true status of the word Spiritual father'
If that bar is passed ,then one must be allowed to join courses further to become Alwaez in the years ahead.
I was stern in my message to AJD.
God forbid if someone tries to harm him taking his contact from this site.the blame firstly goes to his childish act and Admin to allow open dusplay contact details and even me if I was the original desired Target for them.( in Bangladesh they took down 05 bloggers just last year).
AJD and you would have able to contact each other still thru private email on this forum. You would gave had contact detail and not others ,who monitor this forum and maybe anti Ismaili/ etc.
So to speak sternly on the face is speaking truth in a little bitter for message to impact the concern reader or person that AJD in this case.

[shivaathervedi]

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxo4uN ... 9NRDg/view

The above link might be useful to Fayyaz.

Ali Jan
Karachi, Pakistan
+92-321-2744563

THE ISMAILI USUL E DIN ARE:

Tawheed (Unity of Allah)
Nubuwat (Prophethood)
Imamat (Spiritual leadership)
'Adal (Justice)
Ma'ad (Hereafter)

The Title of this article is not appropriate i.e USUL E DIN because in the article are discussed Universal Intellect, Universal Soul, Natiq, and Asas. These terminologies popped up in Fatimid era influenced by Greek philosophy. The writer of this article has mingled Fatimid era philosophy with Satpunthi Ginanic philosophy to prove his point, where as in Ginans there is no mention of Universal Intellect, Universal Soul, Natiq, and Asas. The Ginanic references are not in line with Fatmid era philosophy. In Fatmid era philosophy first comes Kalima e Kun followed by 'Aql e kul and Nafs e kul.(i.e Noor e Muhammadi and Noor e Ali), where as in Ginans the sequence is Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiv. In Ginans Brahma (as gur or Prophet) comes first followed by Vishnu (Ali), means Ali's position is second, that's why in Ginan it is mentioned;
NABI MUHAMMAD BHUJO BHAI
TOU TAMEY PAMO IMAM.
Recognize Muhammad so that you can attain Imam.
It was Prophet who introduced Ali as his succsessor at Ghadir e Khum.
Ginanic quotations are not appropriate. In the article regarding Universal Soul the Ginanic quotation is;
EJI CHOTHA LOWH PUNJIMA QALAM
In Ismaili terminology Ali is Lowh e Mahfuz which in Fatimid era philosophy is at 3rd position where as in Ginan it falls to 4th position (chotha lowh).
Regarding Universal Intellect, the Ginanic verse mentioned is;
JENEY 'ARSH KURSH NEY RAKHIYA EM SARVEY UPPAYA RE LOL
No where in above verse there is trace of 'Aql e KUL. The writer has deduced on his own to compare 'Arsh and Kursh with 'Aql e KUL.

In the Ginanic couplet;
SAAMI RAJA ADAM NOHA IBRAHIM
NOOR E MUSA WA ESSA TU HI TU
In original part there were no names of Prophets nor mention of Noor e Musa wa Essa. ( Admin and others do not accept the new version of this Ginanic part).
Also Quranic references are not valid. Again writer has deduced meaning to prove his point in line of Fatimid era Ismaili Dai's and scholars. For example he mentions;
Number of Natiqs= Total number of years/1000. Where in Quran is mentiond number of years?
The meaning of Quranic Ayat 25/8 (mentioned by writer) is;
OR HAS NOT A TREASURE BEEN BESTOWED ON HIM, OR WHY HAS HE (NOT) A GARDEN FOR ENJOYMENT. THE WICKED SAY, YOU FOLLOW NONE OTHER THAN A MAN BEWITCHED.
In above Ayat there is no mention of Pen, Noor, or Intellect!!
Also te writer in his article wrote," According to Quran Mowla Ali is the Asas as mentioned in Quran 34:45".
But Ayat 34:45 reads as, " AND THEIR PREDECESSORS REJECTED (THE TRUTH). THESE HAVE NOT RECEIVED A TENTH OF WHAT WE HAD GRANTED TO THOSE , YET WHEN THEY REJECTED MY MESSENGERS, HOW (TERRIBLE) WAS MY REJECTION (OF THEM). In this Ayat we can see there is no mention of word Asas.

[FayyazValani2017]

To shivaathervedi
Ya Ali Madad Brother

Is there any thread/post on this website which mention about Ginanic Philosophy? Please share the link

[Admin]

To shivaathervedi
Ya Ali Madad Brother

Is there any thread/post on this website which mention about Ginanic Philosophy? Please share the link

it is important not to have a too general thread which encludes everything and anything and nothing because it serve no purpose.

If you have any specific area of the Ginanic philosophy to discuss and it does not exist by all mean, please open a new thread but do not open an all encompassing thread. Lets not transform this forum into a blog.

[shivaathervedi]

To shivaathervedi
Ya Ali Madad Brother

Is there any thread/post on this website which mention about Ginanic Philosophy? Please share the link

it is important not to have a too general thread which encludes everything and anything and nothing because it serve no purpose.

If you have any specific area of the Ginanic philosophy to discuss and it does not exist by all mean, please open a new thread but do not open an all encompassing thread. Lets not transform this forum into a blog.

I want to discuss Ginans with historical and mythical back grounds comparing with terminologies in Veds, Puranas and Gita which Pirs embedded in Satpunthi Ginans.
BUT Admin is not allowing this idea to go forward though I requested them twice. If I shall post any such article definitely that will be deleted.

For you, I suggest in Ginan section read the following threads which can satisfy your urge of knowledge.
Miscellaneous Articles on Ginans.
Miscellaneous Ginans with translations
Interpretation of various Ginans and related concepts
Momin Chetamani
Hindu Mythology and Terminology.Fatimid literature vs Ginanic literature

[FayyazValani2017]

Ya Ali Madad.
Can anyone help me with understanding this verse of asha ji

Aashaajee Ishwar Bhramaa Maheshvar bhanneeye
Peer paygambar Sohodev saathe jee
anant karoddee Dev surnar malshe
zaher chaddshe Shah rath................Haree anant...14
Translation on ismaili.net :

Oh Lord Understand the Lord as Ishwara,Brama,Maheshvar
The Peers,the Prophets and Peer Sadardin are together
Infinite crore divine spirits will meet
In the open the Lord will mount the war chariot
Haree You are eternal...

Lord = Ishwara , Brahma , Maheshvar . I know that Pir Wrote that to teach Hindus and newly converted ismaili .
But here Pir says that Lord is Ishwara , Brahma (creator) , Maheshvar
and In fatimid philosophy .
The Creator is the universal soul - but not perfect completely
And The Universal Intellect is all powerful and perfect
But they are two different things , Not like Pir mentioned in Ginan . So what is it actually ?
I am really confused .
Who is Universal Intellect , Vishnu , Ali
Who is Universal Soul , Brahma , Mohammad
& Maheshvar = Shiva , According to quick google search , [wikipedia]
So Shiva is also lord.

Or i might be interpreting it wrong , It might be talking about attributes of Ali
That Ali , Universal Intellect is the creator , God , etc . As in previous verse it is mention of attributes .
But then Who is Prophet / Pir . if Ali is Universal Intellect or Allah .
Because There cant be two God.
Or is it Ali is perfect so he is God while Universal Intellect is not Perfect [ and the reason why she created the cosmos] and she is not God , but by spritual assistance of Ali , she created the whole Cosmos .

Please tell me what is right Thank you

[shivaathervedi]

First your laughing icon in mostly posts makes you laughable.
Please correct your self. According to Fatimid era cosmic philosophy:
Allah in primordial times created Noor e Muhammadi and Noor e Ali same time. Noor e Muhammadi is Universal Intellect and Noor e Ali is Universal soul. There wasn't any third entity introduced in that philosophy. The third entity Shiva or Maheshvar was introduced in Ginanic literature. In Ginanic literature poor Shiva is for granted means no important role is described in Ginans, though in Hindu Mythology Lord Shiva is most important.

[Admin]

What has been taught by our Imam in Mijlases since time immemorial has always been consistent.

People who have access to part of the doctrines have written on part of the doctrine. It does not mean the entire doctrine was not available to few chosen ones. Our faith is based on level of initiation. Mijlases are level of initiations. Not everyone has access to all the knowledge. For example the 3 members sitting in Roshnai Mijlases with Mowlana Imam Mohamed Baqir himself sitting as their Mijlas Mukhi, had the same knowledge as people sitting in the same Mijlas with subsequent Imams. (The book Umul Kitab reports some of those Farmans)

People who are stuck in some pre-primary levels of initiation will be repeating the same broken record whcih would hinder their progress in understanding their faith or rather the faith of their forefathers.

Any person deciding that there is no knowledge outside what they know is in fact excluding himself from the access to more complete and higher knowledge.

Those new to this Forum will see practical example of those broken record here. This should not influence their search. Hazar Imam said our faith is a perpetual initiation. Only with an open heart can someone welcome this continuous initiation.

Imams have explained according to the audience, there is nothing new in that.

[shivaathervedi]

What has been taught by our Imam in Mijlases since time immemorial has always been consistent.

People who have access to part of the doctrines have written on part of the doctrine. It does not mean the entire doctrine was not available to few chosen ones. Our faith is based on level of initiation. Mijlases are level of initiations. Not everyone has access to all the knowledge. For example the 3 members sitting in Roshnai Mijlases with Mowlana Imam Mohamed Baqir himself sitting as their Mijlas Mukhi, had the same knowledge as people sitting in the same Mijlas with subsequent Imams. (The book Umul Kitab reports some of those Farmans)

People who are stuck in some pre-primary levels of initiation will be repeating the same broken record whcih would hinder their progress in understanding their faith or rather the faith of their forefathers.

Any person deciding that there is no knowledge outside what they know is in fact excluding himself from the access to more complete and higher knowledge.

Those new to this Forum will see practical example of those broken record here. This should not influence their search. Hazar Imam said our faith is a perpetual initiation. Only with an open heart can someone welcome this continuous initiation.

Imams have explained according to the audience, there is nothing new in that.

Appreciate your defining the initiation. I am not against the personal search or to acquire wisdom but five fingers are not alike. Practically the Ismaili doctrines shaped in pro Fatimid period were different in Fatmid era. The doctrines in post Fatimid era were different then subcontinent era. The subcontinent Satpunthi doctrines are not viable in modern era that's why Imam gave Preamble. Imam's concern is youth. Imam being compassionate do not want any murid should leave Ismaili faith. With quality he is taking care of quantity also. There is lots of difference in MSMS's time and present Imam's time. MSMS realized it make few changes which are continued in time of Present Imam. Change is beneficial and rigidity can doom. Every Ismaili should follow what Imam explains.
Majalis were not around all the time in our history. Darul Hikmah was closed in time of Fatimid era. In Al Mout period there had been fighting in those majalis. In past century many majalis were started and some are discontinued in present Imam's time. Are these majalis now a days serving the real purpose? MSMS started majalis in subcontinent but did not started in Central Asians Jamaits?!!

[Admin]

Are these majalis now a days serving the real purpose? MSMS started majalis in subcontinent but did not started in Central Asians Jamaits?!!

I would make 2 suggestions: One read what people write. for example if you have reference of Mijlas in the time of Mowlana Baqir, it is not Khoja tradition unless you do not know the difference between Indians and Arabs.

Secondly if you were Ismaili, you wold know that the Imam conduct still today Mijlases and make Farmans in them. Obviously you are not aware of this. If you are aware and are questioning the relevance of Mijlases conducted by our Imam, your place is not here, you can go visit some other Forum. I hope I am clear. I would consider your statement on the relevance of Mijlas today as an insult to Hazar Imam. Go read the rules of posting. Thank you.

[shivaathervedi]

Are these majalis now a days serving the real purpose? MSMS started majalis in subcontinent but did not started in Central Asians Jamaits?!!

I would make 2 suggestions: One read what people write. for example if you have reference of Mijlas in the time of Mowlana Baqir, it is not Khoja tradition unless you do not know the difference between Indians and Arabs.

Secondly if you were Ismaili, you wold know that the Imam conduct still today Mijlases and make Farmans in them. Obviously you are not aware of this. If you are aware and are questioning the relevance of Mijlases conducted by our Imam, your place is not here, you can go visit some other Forum. I hope I am clear. I would consider your statement on the relevance of Mijlas today as an insult to Hazar Imam. Go read the rules of posting. Thank you.

You keep threatening me like my girl friend does. I am habitual to it. Just kidding.
Where is the book Ummul Kutab from which you quoted about majlis of Imam Baqir. May be Imam Baqir called those 3 followers for consultation or those followers may had some religious problems to be solved.
You people did not answered about closing of Darul Hikmah under dire conditions and atrocities.
Also you did not address my question, why MSMS just started majalis in sub continent for Satpunthi khojas (where they receive Farmans) by EXCLUDING non khoja jamaits of Central Asia, China, and middle East?

[Admin]

Also you did not address my question, why MSMS just started majalis in sub continent for Satpunthi khojas (where they receive Farmans) by EXCLUDING non khoja jamaits of Central Asia, China, and middle East?

You are mistaken, Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah did not start Mijlases except for Chandraat Mijlas. All other including Baytul Khayal existed since time immemorial. For some Mijlases of Sacrifice or Service, the present Imam has made Farmans explaining that they go back to the time of Hazrat Ali.

Oh I know you will say there were 4 Khoja servants in the service of Bibi Fatima as per Ginans so the Mijlas at the time of Hazrat Ali was still a Khoja Mijlas....