Why not ismailis??

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Fri Jan 23, 2004 10:59 pm

The books of other religions and their literature were changed long ago. Today Geeta,Bible,Torah,Hadiths etc are not in their original form but the changes which were made in these books was on olden times. Today every nation,people of every religion is trying to preserve their books in original form and they do not dare to change a single word. Christians will say our Bible is same as it was before many years [muslims believe that changes are made in Bible but Christians do not believe in that] Similarly people of other religion can claim their books and literature as hundred percent authentic??Can an ismaili claim this about Ginans and Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah in which changes are made by Tariqa board. This is quite true that lot of hadiths were changed and many things which are not true are in book of hadiths but these changes are not made recently today in this modern world every one is preserving their books in original state although they know that if they will change any thing there is no Jesus,Prophet Mohammad [PBUH],Krishna present in todays world to ask them but Ismailis have Imam who say Farman,Ismailis have holy Ginans but different from people of other sects and religion ismailis are not trying to preserve Ginans and FARMANS. They change word according to their own will,do censor and are continoulsly making changes non stop making it unreliable and who is responisble for it.

Still there is time to think what ismailis are doing? Is it right or wrong??

unnalhaq · Post by **unnalhaq** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:07 pm

star_munir wrote:Can an ismaili claim this about Ginans and Farman of Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah in which changes are made by Tariqa board. This is quite true that lot of hadiths were changed and many things which are not true are in book of hadiths but these changes are not made recently today in this modern world every one is preserving their books in original state although they know that if they will change any thing there is no Jesus,Prophet Mohammad [PBUH],Krishna present in todays world to ask them but Ismailis have Imam who say Farman,Ismailis have holy Ginans but different from people of other sects and religion ismailis are not trying to preserve Ginans and FARMANS. They change word according to their own will,do censor and are continoulsly making changes non stop making it unreliable and who is responisble for it.So sad the institute whose reponsibility is to preserve it.

I agree with you. We should preserve them and not change or edit them. It is possible that many of us start to quote them and sometimes that literature is either outdated or not meant for all or present day Jamets. For example The 48th Imam's farman that is still being read in Chicago suburban JKs about"...walking to JK." Well, most of the Jamet lives over 5 miles and it is not possible for them to walk (the daily farmans are chosen but the Mukhi's assistant (KAMARIDIA?spell)) and he lives over 20 miles from JK now it is clearly not obeying the farman. But could it be that it is out of date?

star_munir wrote: In night school religion is taught less lessons about AKDN,social studies,stories and activities are more .
their original form?

You could blame this on people like me who are not Khojas because since there are more and more Jamets that have contact with The Imam and as we can recall the recent farman NAIROBI, KENYA SUNDAY, 11TH DECEMBER, 1988:
"And this means that whereas the Jamats from the Indian sub-continent have, what you call, a Ginan, the Jamats in Iran or Afghanistan may have, what you call, a Qasida. But what I am underlining to you, today, is that as these traditions become more widely known from parts of the world where the Jamat was unable to make contact, and they enter into contact with the Imam of the time, these traditions must be upheld, must be understood and, under the Imam's leadership, they must be more and more shared amongst the Jamat. This will require that the Imam, from time to time, will give direction not only on worldly matters but on matters of the practice of the Faith, on the way it is taught. But remember, in our tariqah, the Imam is the sole authority to make those decisions, and he makes them from the roots of the past of the Shia tariqah and the appointment of Hazrat Ali. Remember that, because that is the essence, and at no time, must that be modified or changed. So what I am saying to my Jamat today is that, as years go by, in the years ahead, Insha-Allah, we will learn a great deal more about spiritual children from parts of the world with which we have had little or no contact, not only for decades but for centuries. And as they come forward, they will bring to us their traditions, their literature, their affection, their songs, their dress, their language, their practice, and this is what is so unique in our tariqah. The tariqah has evolved in different parts of the world, in different languages, in different societies; and whereas sometimes there is a sense in the Ummah and outside that diversity is a weakness, I assure you diversity is strength. It is strength. The more a tariqah such as ours benefits from the creativity, the wisdom, the knowledge of people from more and more parts of the world, the stronger is the tariqah, the greater are its resources, and this is a fundamental point to keep in mind. So if you find that in the decades ahead, I will be concerned for the future of the Jamat in countries such as Afghanistan, remember that it is because every time these contacts are established, its strengthens our Jamat; that is one of the principal concerns everyday of the Imam of the time."
So in short the changes are coming !

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 9:56 pm

What do you mean by You could blame this on people like me who are not Khojas

unnalhaq · Post by **unnalhaq** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:19 pm

star_munir wrote:What do you mean by You could blame this on people like me who are not Khojas

My and many other ismailis (non-khoja-ismailis) find the rites, cerimonies and rituals different. Some may (hardliners) may even do think that it Khojs are still going through Hindu to Muslim to Ismaili conversion. Or in other direction where non-khojas when they attend or are introduced to JKs (majority khoja jamet) they are out of place.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 10:50 pm

unnalhaq wrote:My and many other ismailis (non-khoja-ismailis) find the rites, cerimonies and rituals different. Some may (hardliners) may even do think that it Khojs are still going through Hindu to Muslim to Ismaili conversion. Or in other direction where non-khojas when they attend or are introduced to JKs (majority khoja jamet) they are out of place.

I think there is strength in diversity. There is no reason for any Ismaili to feel out of place wherever he/she may be. The forms of our rituals might vary but the essence is the same and can be understood provided one has an open mind. I have been to non khoja Jamats (in Syria) and have never felt out of place.

I think the issue at the RE centers has nothing to do with the diversity. It is just a trend in the youth to get away from the traditions and focus more on the socio/economic dimension of our Jamat in which they are more interested.

unnalhaq · Post by **unnalhaq** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 7:52 am

kmaherali wrote:I think there is strength in diversity. There is no reason for any Ismaili to feel out of place wherever he/she may be. The forms of our rituals might vary but the essence is the same and can be understood provided one has an open mind.
place.

You don't need to think that is so because it is in the Farman of The Imam in 2000 Karachi (Garden East, the whole thing that you have quoted!
I did not say anything otherwise about diversity. What I am saying is that soon there will be some uniformity to the JK ceremonies across all JKs so that you can walk in and not be out of place. I think Khoja Jamets as a whole accepts the diversity but as individuals they see it as a threat to their traditions and congregational ceremonies. I know when ever I have brought this up in person the denial is persistence but if I point out things they do admit to this.

kmaherali wrote:I have been to non khoja Jamats (in Syria) and have never felt out of place.

You are correct Syrians have very much in common with the African Jamets. I think this is because of the 48th Imam and Price Aly Khan's close contacts (involvements) with them at the same time with African Jamets. Though things are a little different or similar to of the other non-khoja jamets. For example, Du'a Begins with the saying of "Ya Ali Maddad" out loud. Another one would be in the 6th part of the Dua, instead of in the end of saying "Shah jo deedar" its "Ya Ali Maddad". Also, the reply to "Ya Ali Maddad" is a little different "Mowlana Ali Maddad" vs. "Mowla Ali Maddad". These may be few examples some small variances with Khoja Jamets. I think this will some day will get adopted into (or change) in Khoja Jamets.

kmaherali wrote: I think the issue at the RE centers has nothing to do with the diversity. It is just a trend in the youth to get away from the traditions and focus more on the socio/economic dimension of our Jamat in which they are more interested.

I know for sure that The Imam had personally reviewed the curriculum/books of (RE/REC/Dar-ul-ilm/night school/mission classes) Grades 6-8 especially the books. I was commenting on the question of why the curriculum was getting changed.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 9:32 am

unnalhaq wrote: What I am saying is that soon there will be some uniformity to the JK ceremonies across all JKs so that you can walk in and not be out of place. I think Khoja Jamets as a whole accepts the diversity but as individuals they see it as a threat to their traditions and congregational ceremonies. I know when ever I have brought this up in person the denial is persistence but if I point out things they do admit to this.

That is something that only MHI can decide. According to my perception, MHI wants this diversity to continue. I remember a Farman he made in Sindh where in he said (I am paraphrasing): "While you are in contact with other Jamats, maintain your Sindhi traditions."

unnalhaq wrote:
I know for sure that The Imam had personally reviewed the curriculum/books of (RE/REC/Dar-ul-ilm/night school/mission classes) Grades 6-8 especially the books. I was commenting on the question of why the curriculum was getting changed.

Yes the curriculum has been modified as per the following statement of the Imam. "Also, for religious education effectively to complement what children learn in secular schools, it has to be intellectually stimulating and pedagogically sound."
It still reflects the balance between faith and social dimension. My question is whether this revised curriculum being followed.

unnalhaq · Post by **unnalhaq** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:03 am

kmaherali wrote: That is something that only MHI can decide.

I unequivocally agree with this.

kmaherali wrote:
According to my perception, MHI wants this diversity to continue. I remember a Farman he made in Sindh where in he said (I am paraphrasing): "While you are in contact with other Jamats, maintain your Sindhi traditions."

Right again but I think there is a difference between the traditions and religious (faith) practices, rites and ceremonies (with in JK). I have been commenting on those forms in JK I think the Imam had made it clear that the forms will change and I think it is to make all JKs to have the same ceremonies. I am not sure but I have a wish list that I don't want to share here but in person I have. Some may say it is anit-khoja but that is not the case I think Khojas have contributed enormously over time to the Imamet a good example would be The My Flag and cote of arms (the Crown of Imam). But on the other hand I have just learned the meaning of Ismaili Anthem (Noor e russool ulla) I am not sure if that is going to be it; in other words things must transcends cultural and language barriers that’s with will be uniting.

kmaherali wrote:
My question is whether this revised curriculum being followed.

That is a good question! I think there are forces (people) though teaching from the new books but they do pass on their ideology. When I was in High School as a senior a new guidance councilor was hired -a Hispanic, he at one point in said (to a student), "you shouldn't act like them -withes)” coasted him his job. We all knew it was to reinforce his cultural values and that can not happen. The exact something happed but this time it was the Principal of the Night School (Northlake, Chicago) an (Indian/Khoja) who had made the same comment! He was not disciplined as swiftly but at the end of the year he did not come back.
I people in Jamet let things go on unchecked and it gets out of hand.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:31 pm

unnalhaq wrote:Right again but I think there is a difference between the traditions and religious (faith) practices, rites and ceremonies (with in JK). I have been commenting on those forms in JK I think the Imam had made it clear that the forms will change and I think it is to make all JKs to have the same ceremonies.

The following is the excerpt of the farman made in Dares Salaam on Oct, 6, 1988.

"But there will be nonetheless a search to enable the Murids to come together in an ever-wider Jamat, practicing their faith together even if they don't speak the same language. There will be attempt to take account of the pressures of modern life. There will be an attempt to make sure that traditions are understood within the Jamat and outside and that they do not give offence. But those who pretend that the tradition of our Jamat should change, there is no concern that should exist in the Jamat - in the hearts of my Jamat - in this matter."

Traditions include rites and ceremonies and their meaning.

unnalhaq · Post by **unnalhaq** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:03 pm

I think you missed the few lines that was stated just before that:
"There may be change in certain forms; that is normal in any tariqah, taking into account the life that we lead. But let it be quite clear that it is the Imam of the time and only the Imam of the time who has the authority to give directions in tariqah matters. Under the new Constitution, there are Tariqah and Religious Education Boards; they relate to me; I am aware of their work. The Mukhis and the Kamadias who are the Imam's representatives in the Jamatkhanas receive directions more and more so. I wish it to be clear, therefore, that in tariqah matters I am aware, and there will be no change in the essence of our faith,"
What is the essence of our faith? He explained to us in at the beginning of the same Farman so that there is no misunderstanding:
"Our tradition goes back centuries. It is an esoteric tradition, it is an intellectual tradition, it is a personal tradition, it is a tradition that stems from Hazrat Ali, and there will be no compromise on the essence of those traditions."
And furthermore as He explained in NAIROBI, KENYA SUNDAY, 11TH DECEMBER, 1988:

"Jamats who did not have regular contact with the Imam of the time, have more and more contact with the Imam - Jamats in North West Pakistan, Jamats in Afghanistan, Jamats in China; Insha-Allah, one day Jamats in the Soviet Union. As these Jamats enter into contact with you and with the Imam, first of all, that link is reinforced. But secondly, we learn about the way the tradition has been continued even without contact with the Imam of the time, how that practice has continued, how the tradition has evolved. And this means that whereas the Jamats from the Indian sub-continent have, what you call, a Ginan, the Jamats in Iran or Afghanistan may have, what you call, a Qasida. But what I am underlining to you, today, is that as these traditions become more widely known from parts of the world where the Jamat was unable to make contact, and they enter into contact with the Imam of the time, these traditions must be upheld, must be understood and, under the Imam's leadership, they must be more and more shared amongst the Jamat. This will require that the Imam, from time to time, will give direction not only on worldly matters but on matters of the practice of the Faith, on the way it is taught. But remember, in our tariqah, the Imam is the sole authority to make those decisions, and he makes them from the roots of the past of the Shia tariqah and the appointment of Hazrat Ali. Remember that, because that is the essence, and at no time, must that be modified or changed. So what I am saying to my Jamat today is that, as years go by, in the years ahead, Insha-Allah, we will learn a great deal more about spiritual children from parts of the world with which we have had little or no contact, not only for decades but for centuries. And as they come forward, they will bring to us their traditions, their literature, their affection, their songs, their dress, their language, their practice, and this is what is so unique in our tariqah. The tariqah has evolved in different parts of the world, in different languages, in different societies; and whereas sometimes there is a sense in the Ummah and outside that diversity is a weakness, I assure you diversity is strength. It is strength. The more a tariqah such as ours benefits from the creativity, the wisdom, the knowledge of people from more and more parts of the world, the stronger is the tariqah, the greater are its resources, and this is a fundamental point to keep in mind. So if you find that in the decades ahead, I will be concerned for the future of the Jamat in countries such as Afghanistan, remember that it is because every time these contacts are established, its strengthens our Jamat; that is one of the principal concerns everyday of the Imam of the time."

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 11:35 pm

Re:For example The 48th Imam's farman that is still being read in Chicago suburban JKs about"...walking to JK." Well, most of the Jamet lives over 5 miles and it is not possible for them to walk (the daily farmans are chosen but the Mukhi's assistant (KAMARIDIA?spell)) and he lives over 20 miles from JK now it is clearly not obeying the farman. But could it be that it is out of date?

It is also in Ginan that,"Every steptaken towards the Lord in full faith and devotion will be rewarded with innumerable gains."
Yes you are right that it is not possible for every one to follow this Farman. The one who lives far away from JK can not come Jk by walking but he/she has to travel in car/bus etc but that not makes the Farman out dated. For example in olden times Taran Rani used to go to JK while riding on horse as there was not any Jamat khana in her city but yet she was very punctual.

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 3:54 am

unnalhaq wrote: I agree with you. We should preserve them and not change or edit them. It is possible that many of us start to quote them and sometimes that literature is either outdated or not meant for all or present day Jamets. For example The 48th Imam's farman that is still being read in Chicago suburban JKs about"...walking to JK." Well, most of the Jamet lives over 5 miles and it is not possible for them to walk (the daily farmans are chosen but the Mukhi's assistant (KAMARIDIA?spell)) and he lives over 20 miles from JK now it is clearly not obeying the farman. But could it be that it is out of date?

I don't think the farman is out of date..i think our reading of it is out of date....when that farman was made..i believe in the early 20s or 30s..(correct me if i am wrong) very few ismailies had the financial werewithal to own a car...very few ismailies actually lived in the west..the majority of the ismailies in the indo sub pak continent and africa lived around the jamatkhana..if you study east african history you will find that most ismailies set up shop around the jamatkhana..with it being in the center of town usually surrounded by ismaili shops..and this was true to a certain extent in India/Pakistan as well...until the advent of modern day..in today's time i think the farman should be read as to making the effort to fulfill another one of the Imam's farmans vizaviz Jamat Khana attendance...i think the Imam even in the Joma of MSMS was emphasizing the effort of making it to Jamatkhana...whether one walked there..( a five minute walk) or a 20 mile drive...going that 20 miles in a city like Chicago with traffic congestion takes effort and time..and I think that was what the Imam was refering to..
Our interpretation of our Faith shouldn't be so narrow so as to exclude other interpretations of our faith..
as for being Khoja or anti khoja or the changes in practises of certain rites and rituals..i think it's not for us to decide what rituals are right or wrong...i grew up with the Khojas..not being a khoja..but from another tariqah and grew to accept a lot of their traditions after looking at them with an open mind and learning about them...we are a fluid jamat and as we live and grow together more traditions will grow and change..we will create new rites and rituals...and that is how it should be...i don't think any one tariqah has the right to say that the other tariqah is hinduistic or sunni..i think each tradition grows out of need..or out of circumstance...whilst one can freely exercise some practises in East Africa, the same practise might be dangerous in places such as Pakistan or Yemen...i.e. using Ali instead of Hari..because of enviromental factors...
or the differences in the Khusrawi tradition versus the Khoja tradition ...
but any changes must come from MHI..not from so called lists that some of us have.

Shams.

unnalhaq · Post by **unnalhaq** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:02 pm

star_munir wrote:... very punctual.

When you say punctual does that mean getting to JK by the end of 2nd Du'a? Because that seems to be the norm; I was told the by a Khoja that "Khoja Time" is 30 min behind. Continuing the theme just over few years ago some people (who thought they were smart) came up with the idea of changing the Life Mijlis from late morning-early noon to after JK services in the evening so that more people would attend the regular JK services! Guess what now everyone comes in after the regular services are over and just as the Mijlis is beginning. Don't tell me that because people have to work, that’s not true it's on the weekend.

unnalhaq · Post by **unnalhaq** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 6:12 pm

ShamsB wrote: i grew up with the Khojas..not being a khoja..but from another tariqah and grew to accept a lot of their traditions after looking at them with an open mind and learning about them...

I am glad that it worked out for you but at the same time I am sadden that you did not keep your tradition.

ShamsB wrote: i don't think any one tariqah has the right to say that the other tariqah is hinduistic or sunni..

You can think what you want but the reality is that you are what you do; if you it looks like a melon it is a melon.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:42 pm

As you wrote:When you say punctual does that mean getting to JK by the end of 2nd Du'a? Because that seems to be the norm; I was told the by a Khoja that "Khoja Time" is 30 min behind

Please dont write jokes atleast when there is some discussion meant for learning. Also you wrote:You can think what you want but the reality is that you are what you do; if you it looks like a melon it is a melon.
Please tell directly what do you mean to wrote like this?
You are the one who continuously wrote about pluralism but on the other hand you are not accepting ideas and debating every time khoja and non khoja.

There is importance of every rites and ceremonies. For example as Ismaili we do not sacrifice goats or cow in Eid like other muslims but when an ismaili goes to Jamat Khana and says Hai Zinda he or she gets the reward equivalent to give elephant for God and when some one replies Qayam Paya than there is a reward of horse. But it must be said with imaan and love. Now you can imagaine how much reward is there for us. These rites and ceremonies are blessings of Hazir Imam. Take example of Niyaz. At the time of Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] Prophet [PBUH] used to dip His Holy finger in water and than used to gave it to momins to drink it. All the ceremonies practised by Ismailis are truly Islamic and those who term it or thinks it that it is hinduism is foolish as Pir converted hindus to muslims, not muslims to hindus and also Ginans are for all ismailis [Refer Farman of Hazir Imam Karachi 16 December, 1964] Sukreet today we have is to what we say seera [or halwa] at the time of Prophet [PBUH] He used to give it made of dates. At the time of Tara Rani it was meat. Basically the true religion is from the begining of this world and this is a thing which must be understood.
Just like Shams B wrote i don't think any one tariqah has the right to say that the other tariqah is hinduistic or sunni
In Ginan Buj Niranjan Pir Sadrdin says,"...ask yourself where you are at but do not judge others like the mullahs would."

unnalhaq · Post by **unnalhaq** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 7:43 pm

star_munir wrote:As you wrote:When you say punctual does that mean getting to JK by the end of 2nd Du'a? Because that seems to be the norm; I was told the by a Khoja that "Khoja Time" is 30 min behind

Please dont write jokes atleast when there is some discussion meant for learning.

I was not joking it is the TRUTH! People do get to JK at the end of 2nd Dua, which is usually about 30min after the start of the 1st.
The joke would be: Do you know why DVP traffic is so bad between the 1st Du'a Time and at end of 2nd Du'a Time? Becasue they are going to JK! (DVP is Don Valley Parkway, one of the major Highways in Toronto, Canada where there are 3 Jks off of the Highway.) And I know that is mean but it is still the truth.

star_munir wrote: Also you wrote:You can think what you want but the reality is that you are what you do; if you it looks like a melon it is a melon.
Please tell directly what do you mean to wrote like this?

Khojas are not Ismailis or Muslim that is how most see it as. If you dress like a Hindu(non-muslim, not just in India), have traditions like non-muslim,/Hindu, cultural values like non-muslim/Hindu, rituals like Hindu/non-muslim, and on and on people will call you Non-Muslim/Hindu.

star_munir wrote: You are the one who continuously wrote about pluralism but on the other hand you are not accepting ideas and debating every time khoja and non khoja.

You are correct! I do. Just to point out that how intollerent Khojas are of pluralism.

star_munir wrote: There is importance of every rites and ceremonies. For example as Ismaili we do not sacrifice goats or cow in Eid like other muslims

Speak for yourself or may be just for Khojas because Ismailis do offer the sacrifices. I am starting to understand that when people on these forums do not represent Ismailis just a group within Ismailis.

star_munir wrote: but when an ismaili goes to Jamat Khana and says Hai Zinda he or she gets the reward equivalent to give elephant for God

See again, elephant another symbolic animal that has the Hindu relevance to it as divine strength. Don't confuse "alm ul feem" the year of the elephants where elephants were the devil’s strength.
Also you forgot "In the times when the Ginans were composed, it was customary to present such gifts to rulers and kings.” I think this was compiled some where page#378 under Haizinda-Qayampaya sub paragraph of Blessings For Performance.

star_munir wrote: But it must be said with imaan and love. Now you can imagaine how much reward is there for us. These rites and ceremonies are blessings of Hazir Imam. Take example of Niyaz. At the time of Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] Prophet [PBUH] used to dip His Holy finger in water and than used to gave it to momins to drink it. All the ceremonies practised by Ismailis are truly Islamic and those who term it or thinks it that it is hinduism is foolish as Pir converted hindus to muslims, not muslims to hindus

Are you sure the Prophet used is finger? I have heard that he used to blow on to the water as he prayed on it. Niyaz, don't get me wrong but not too long ago I had seen on TV (History Channel) a documentary where it showed the right of way of cows on streets in India, one thing just that was very similar to what some people do when they are taking Niyaz, it that when cow went by and relieved it self and people dipped there hands/fingers into it and put them to there eyes in the same fashion as they do in JK (one/two right fingers dipped and toughed to the inter corner, close to the nose side, of the eye on both sides) on Friday nights. I am trying to get a hold of a copy of that documentary.

star_munir wrote: Sukreet today we have is to what we say seera [or halwa] at the time of Prophet [PBUH] He used to give it made of dates.

I thought Sukreet was the "symbolic sacrifice (or good deed)"
Symbolic of five essential quality:
Milk-zikar(prayer), Sugar-Truth, Butter/shortning-Faith, Flour(wheat)-Tolerance and Niyaz-Patience
Also Seera is not Sukreet until Niyaz is added.

star_munir wrote: Basically the true religion is from the begining of this world and this is a thing which must be understood.

Hinduism is the world's oldest religion, I guess you could say that it is from the beginning of this world but I would not go as far as saying it is the "true religion". Also Islam is the youngest.

star_munir wrote: Just like Shams B wrote i don't think any one tariqah has the right to say that the other tariqah is hinduistic or sunni

But still if it looks like a melon, it is a melon.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:25 pm

unnalhaq wrote:Khojas are not Ismailis or Muslim that is how most see it as. If you dress like a Hindu(non-muslim, not just in India), have traditions like non-muslim,/Hindu, cultural values like non-muslim/Hindu, rituals like Hindu/non-muslim, and on and on people will call you Non-Muslim/Hindu.

May I ask you what would you consider as Ismaili/Muslim dress, tradition, cultural values, and rituals. I thought Islam was pluralistic and you could not pinpoint a particular set as being Islamic. Furthermore, MHI defined Islam as encompassing whole humanity... so how can you call anyone a non Muslim. Those who see us as non Muslims do not have a clue of what Islam is.

unnalhaq wrote: Hinduism is the world's oldest religion, I guess you could say that it is from the beginning of this world but I would not go as far as saying it is the "true religion". Also Islam is the youngest.

"Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countries Gautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe."(Extract from The Memoirs of the Aga Khan by H.H. The Aga Khan III)

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 10:23 pm

unnalhaq wrote:
star_munir wrote:As you wrote:When you say punctual does that mean getting to JK by the end of 2nd Du'a? Because that seems to be the norm; I was told the by a Khoja that "Khoja Time" is 30 min behind

Please dont write jokes atleast when there is some discussion meant for learning.
I was not joking it is the TRUTH! People do get to JK at the end of 2nd Dua, which is usually about 30min after the start of the 1st.
The joke would be: Do you know why DVP traffic is so bad between the 1st Du'a Time and at end of 2nd Du'a Time? Becasue they are going to JK! (DVP is Don Valley Parkway, one of the major Highways in Toronto, Canada where there are 3 Jks off of the Highway.) And I know that is mean but it is still the truth.
star_munir wrote: Also you wrote:You can think what you want but the reality is that you are what you do; if you it looks like a melon it is a melon.
Please tell directly what do you mean to wrote like this?
Khojas are not Ismailis or Muslim that is how most see it as. If you dress like a Hindu(non-muslim, not just in India), have traditions like non-muslim,/Hindu, cultural values like non-muslim/Hindu, rituals like Hindu/non-muslim, and on and on people will call you Non-Muslim/Hindu.
star_munir wrote: You are the one who continuously wrote about pluralism but on the other hand you are not accepting ideas and debating every time khoja and non khoja.
You are correct! I do. Just to point out that how intollerent Khojas are of pluralism.
star_munir wrote: There is importance of every rites and ceremonies. For example as Ismaili we do not sacrifice goats or cow in Eid like other muslims
Speak for yourself or may be just for Khojas because Ismailis do offer the sacrifices. I am starting to understand that when people on these forums do not represent Ismailis just a group within Ismailis.
star_munir wrote: but when an ismaili goes to Jamat Khana and says Hai Zinda he or she gets the reward equivalent to give elephant for God
See again, elephant another symbolic animal that has the Hindu relevance to it as divine strength. Don't confuse "alm ul feem" the year of the elephants where elephants were the devil’s strength.
Also you forgot "In the times when the Ginans were composed, it was customary to present such gifts to rulers and kings.” I think this was compiled some where page#378 under Haizinda-Qayampaya sub paragraph of Blessings For Performance.
star_munir wrote: But it must be said with imaan and love. Now you can imagaine how much reward is there for us. These rites and ceremonies are blessings of Hazir Imam. Take example of Niyaz. At the time of Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] Prophet [PBUH] used to dip His Holy finger in water and than used to gave it to momins to drink it. All the ceremonies practised by Ismailis are truly Islamic and those who term it or thinks it that it is hinduism is foolish as Pir converted hindus to muslims, not muslims to hindus
Are you sure the Prophet used is finger? I have heard that he used to blow on to the water as he prayed on it. Niyaz, don't get me wrong but not too long ago I had seen on TV (History Channel) a documentary where it showed the right of way of cows on streets in India, one thing just that was very similar to what some people do when they are taking Niyaz, it that when cow went by and relieved it self and people dipped there hands/fingers into it and put them to there eyes in the same fashion as they do in JK (one/two right fingers dipped and toughed to the inter corner, close to the nose side, of the eye on both sides) on Friday nights. I am trying to get a hold of a copy of that documentary.

star_munir wrote: Sukreet today we have is to what we say seera [or halwa] at the time of Prophet [PBUH] He used to give it made of dates.
I thought Sukreet was the "symbolic sacrifice (or good deed)"
Symbolic of five essential quality:
Milk-zikar(prayer), Sugar-Truth, Butter/shortning-Faith, Flour(wheat)-Tolerance and Niyaz-Patience
Also Seera is not Sukreet until Niyaz is added.

star_munir wrote: Basically the true religion is from the begining of this world and this is a thing which must be understood.
Hinduism is the world's oldest religion, I guess you could say that it is from the beginning of this world but I would not go as far as saying it is the "true religion". Also Islam is the youngest.

star_munir wrote: Just like Shams B wrote i don't think any one tariqah has the right to say that the other tariqah is hinduistic or sunni
But still if it looks like a melon, it is a melon.

wow..i am a melon..you sound like an ignorant sunni mulla giving a speech from a soap box about what is wrong with Khoja Ismailism instead of how to build bridges within the different ismaili tariqahs..instead of fostering the exchange of ideas and concepts..you have donned the cape of the righteous and are commenced on a crusade of sorts..
so since you sound like a sunni mullah to me..you should be one right?

in your previous post..you have shown yourself to be ignorant of the basics of ismailism..
ismailism is universal..like islam..yet you have bound it in the cultural ties of the arabist world...
you want to go to an ismailism which is similar to wahabism right? WE SHOULD DO WHAT THE ARAB MUSLIMS DO..well they marry 4 women..if not more..the princes..(from 60 minutes on CBS btw) practise bisexuality..smoke hashish and do all sorts of haram things..their ways seem to be acceptable to you..( i am generalizing..trying to make a point)

You know very little about your own faith..and that shows from your post which is very ignorant and condescending to all other ismailies..you have no acceptance or tolerance..are you sure you're an ismaili?
if you are..then where is the spirit of brotherhood and unity..where is the spirit of learning...
There are phrases in the Qur'an which state that Islam was there from the day of creation and will be there to the day of judgement...
which means Islam is the oldest faith in the world and everything else is an offshoot of it..you need to go study a little bit more in night school..
the quran says that there were 124,000 messengers sent to every part of the earth..Now don't get excited..i know from reading what you write that for you..that should only mean Arabia and Pan Arabia..since that is the way of Islam that you subscribe to and accept....

For someone that claims to be from something closer to original ismailism than most of the khojas you seem to lack the basic understanding of islam or ismailism...
in terms of ghatpat...the ceremony of ghatpat..the niyaz...and the sukhreet or sweet is not a hindu ceremony at all..
this ceremony has been there from the time of the prophet and we have the authentication of this from not only Shia Scholars but Sunni Scholars as well...Ghatpat was introduced to the Khojas by Pir Sadardeen who wasn't Indian...he was from Iran (i could be wrong..but he wasn't indian)

in one of your statements you just compared Niyaz..or Abe Shafa to Cow Urine...something that Hazar Imam creates when he gives deedar..you equated it to the urine of a cow..are you sure you're an ismaili...

doesn't it surprise you that the 2 folks that are debating you on khojas versus your bias against them aren't khojas at all....Star Munir isn't a khoja and neither am I...

the way you interpret islam is very arabist and sunni...i don't agree with it..but as an ismaili..i do understand that you come from a different geopolitical background..a different cultural background and your practises are different from mine...and i accept that..i also accept that when in Rome do as the Romans do...
also as per our tariqah..any tariqah..any changes in any practise of the faith can only be done by Mowlana Hazar Imam..no one else..

in terms of Khoja time...i can make stereotypical and ethnic jokes and slurs about nonKhoja Ismailies all the time..however that will not be following a farman of the Imam..in regards to the spirit of brotherhood..as for showing up late for Dua..can you honestly tell me that you are 100% in your jamat khana attendance? and you show up before 1st dua?...we are no one to judge when and how who does what..we have to focus on the practice of our own faith...

Please tell me in what part of the world that ismailies do sacrifices..i.e. physical sacrifices..since you have claimed that in another statement in the previous post....

Please get your facts right..
I seriously think you need to chill a little..open your mind..go learn about the practise of the Khoja tariqah...don't be narrow minded...don't go following arabist islam because that isn't what the imam wants..the Imam wants us to have our own identity..actually go learn about ismailism..from all perspectives and all aspects..learn about the PLURALITY that MHI mentions in so many different farmans...

in a farman in Nairobi he has said..i told you to build bridges..not to cross them....
we are a distinct sect within the rest of the muslims..and as MHI has said..our diversity is the key to our strength and survival...

also i don't think i am going to respond to any more of your posts..because most of your posts are dedicated to insulting other tariqahs and i don't beleive this to be in the spirit of brotherhood..not only that you make statements and when asked to back them up..have yet to do so.
i would urge StarMunir to do the same..because a healthy discussion can only be had with one that is willing to learn..not with one that has a superiority complex that HE and HE ALONE in his practise is right..everyone else is wrong..or stupid..or pagan..from another post of his...
and if i am a PAGAN by your standards..i am happy to be Pagan..
i wish you all the best in your search..

Shams

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:01 pm

As you wrote,"I was not joking it is the TRUTH! People do get to JK at the end of 2nd Dua, which is usually about 30min after the start of the 1st. "
You may be right that many ismailis come late in Jk but this was not a reply for comment about comming to JK on time but about a historical event and that seems you were joking or making fun.

As you worte,"Khojas are not Ismailis or Muslim that is how most see it as. If you dress like a Hindu(non-muslim, not just in India), have traditions like non-muslim,/Hindu, cultural values like non-muslim/Hindu, rituals like Hindu/non-muslim, and on and on people will call you Non-Muslim/Hindu."

For your kind information, Pir Sadardin at the time of Imam Islam Shah converted hindus into ismaili muslims and gave new converts the title of Khwaja which late became known as Khoja.

You wrote about pluarlism. First think about your self. You are totally wrong to write,” Just to point out that how intollerent Khojas are of pluralism” Actually from your various postings your hatred and non acceptance of believes and traditions of Khoja ismailis is quite visible and today it reached to the extent that you start calling kafirs. Isnt is narrowmindness or anti pluralism? Here you are welcome to share Qasidas and religious hymns etc. But don’t try to divide ismailis with this is not for me and that’s for you and you are hindus etc. There is difference between Islam and Arabism.

As you wrote See again, elephant another symbolic animal that has the Hindu relevance to it as divine strength. Don't confuse "alm ul feem" the year of the elephants where elephants were the devil’s strength.
Also you forgot "In the times when the Ginans were composed, it was customary to present such gifts to rulers and kings.”
That has nothing to do with hindusim. Do you wear westen dresses? Why do you if yes. Don’t use car, computer etc as these are also not invented by muslims…..your comparison with almul feel don’t make any sense and also at the time when Ginans were composed ismailis were very very poor and had not enough money to even eat food how can it be thought of sacrifice of animal..If you want to sacrifice cow and goat in eid do that but what you will get from it? Instead with pure Imaan that Imam is Hazir and Moujood and will always be [In Quran the word Hayul Qayum in Ayat ul Kursi] say Hai Zinda and Kayam Paya and get the reward of elephant and horse and think if you are regular in Jk how much reward you have got from it as elephant and horse is much much more expensive than goats and cow. Can you buy eplephant and horse daily and give it to God? Still if you want to get the reward only of cow and goat for once in year than its your own will but atleast don’t compare the practise which is very much important to the concept of Ismailism that the Nur of Imam is ever present with hindusim and also with examples that not make any sense. Try to think over the meanings behind this and ceremonies before terming it non Islamic. The Ismaili Pirs were not hindus but Aal-e-Rasool and Green color in Ismaili flag represents Pir.
As you wrote,” Are you sure the Prophet used is finger?” I was not at that time but this was what in books of hadiths as per Alwaez Abu Ali.
As you worte,” I thought Sukreet was the "symbolic sacrifice (or good deed)"
Symbolic of five essential quality: Milk-zikar(prayer), Sugar-Truth, Butter/shortning-Faith, Flour(wheat)-Tolerance and Niyaz-Patience
Also Seera is not Sukreet until Niyaz is added”
At the time of Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] He used to give some thing made from dates and it was sukreet of that time. Dates were not so much popular in India but Indians like sweet dishes like seera,lapsi etc so this was introduces as Sukreet with each ingrediant giving lesson. I agree that seera is not sukreet until Niyaz is not added..
As you wrote,” Hinduism is the world's oldest religion, I guess you could say that it is from the beginning of this world but I would not go as far as saying it is the "true religion". Also Islam is the youngest”
Islam was not started with Prophet Muhammad [PBUH], it was completed at Prophet Muhammad [PBUH]. Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] was not the first Prophet but the last. The true religion is from the begining of this world and the religion of every Prophet was true religion i.e,Islam.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:23 pm

I agree with Shams that a healthy discussion can only be had with one that is willing to learn..not with one that has a superiority complex that HE and HE ALONE in his practise is right.
Its request to Unal Haq/Admin to delete the sentences with insult of Aab-e-Shafa/Niyaz

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:23 pm

I agree with Shams that a healthy discussion can only be had with one that is willing to learn..not with one that has a superiority complex that HE and HE ALONE in his practise is right.
Its request to Unal Haq and Admin to delete the sentences with insult of Aab-e-Shafa/Niyaz

unnalhaq · Post by **unnalhaq** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 6:32 pm

star_munir wrote:I agree with Shams that a healthy discussion can only be had with one that is willing to learn..not with one that has a superiority complex that HE and HE ALONE in his practise is right.
Its request to Unal Haq and Admin to delete the sentences with insult of Aab-e-Shafa/Niyaz

Yeah sure, but the fact remains that you are twisting what I had said. I suggest you read it again. It is not me who insulted but you be the judge:

unnalhaq wrote: Niyaz, don't get me wrong but not too long ago I had seen on TV (History Channel) a documentary where it showed the right of way of cows on streets in India, one thing just that was very similar to what some people do when they are taking Niyaz, it that when cow went by and relieved it self and people dipped there hands/fingers into it and put them to there eyes in the same fashion as they do in JK (one/two right fingers dipped and toughed to the inter corner, close to the nose side, of the eye on both sides) on Friday nights.

*Some People do
**They
If you saw the program you'd know, you may deny it but you would recognize what was going on.

unnalhaq · Post by **unnalhaq** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:11 pm

star_munir wrote: You may be right that many ismailis come late in Jk but this was not a reply for comment about comming to JK on time but about a historical event and that seems you were joking or making fun.

I was not joking as I had explained before (DVP traffic).

star_munir wrote: For your kind information, Pir Sadardin at the time of Imam Islam Shah converted hindus into ismaili muslims and gave new converts the title of Khwaja which late became known as Khoja.

I know the history and Khoja means Businessmen. Of course I know (as a Persian) I have said many times (may be not on this site) that we sent (shared) many enchanting (mystic) personalities with South Asia (India).

star_munir wrote: You wrote about pluarlism. First think about your self. You are totally wrong to write,” Just to point out that how intollerent Khojas are of pluralism” Actually from your various postings your hatred and non acceptance of believes and traditions of Khoja ismailis is quite visible and today it reached to the extent that you start calling kafirs. Isnt is narrowmindness or anti pluralism? Here you are welcome to share Qasidas and religious hymns etc.

That is something that I have observed over past 20-30 years, that how intollerent Khojas are (of Pluralism). Sometime that is observed and commenting upon is not hatred! I don't think nither you or I or anyone has a right to call anyone Kafir(s).

star_munir wrote: But don’t try to divide ismailis with this is not for me and that’s for you and you are hindus etc. There is difference between Islam and Arabism.

No one is trying to divide Ismailis but one must know their roots (with in Ismailism). But once you start to hybrid Ismaili faith with Hindu traditions, it is no longer Ismaili Faith; it is the mix of two and once you have suppressed one and have imbalance then what has the greater influence will be called or be known as that.

star_munir wrote: As you wrote See again, elephant another symbolic animal that has the Hindu relevance to it as divine strength. Don't confuse "alm ul feem" the year of the elephants where elephants were the devil’s strength.
Also you forgot "In the times when the Ginans were composed, it was customary to present such gifts to rulers and kings.”
That has nothing to do with hindusim.

Ganesh is the Hindu elephant-headed god.

star_munir wrote: Do you wear westen dresses? Why do you if yes.

Yes, because I am. And I do in JK also.

star_munir wrote: Don’t use car, computer etc as these are also not invented by muslims…..

your comparison with almul feel don’t make any sense
Who was compairing?

unnalhaq wrote: Don't confuse "alm ul feem" the year of the elephants where elephants were the devil’s strength.

I was take an additional step to short circuit any debate that me arise from that (elephant).

star_munir wrote: and also at the time when Ginans were composed ismailis were very very poor and had not enough money to even eat food how can it be thought of sacrifice of animal..If you want to sacrifice cow and goat in eid do that but what you will get from it?

What is your understanding of sacrifice of cattle? Just for your info, the meat from the sacrifice is sent to the poor. May be perhaps slaughter of cow is Sacrilegious? <<-Now that is what you may want to call it an insult if you like.

star_munir wrote: Instead with pure Imaan that Imam is Hazir and Moujood and will always be [In Quran the word Hayul Qayum in Ayat ul Kursi] say Hai Zinda and Kayam Paya and get the reward of elephant and horse and think if you are regular in Jk how much reward you have got from it as elephant and horse is much much more expensive than goats and cow. Can you buy eplephant and horse daily and give it to God? Still if you want to get the reward only of cow and goat for once in year than its your own will but atleast don’t compare the practise which is very much important to the concept of Ismailism that the Nur of Imam is ever present with hindusim and also with examples that not make any sense.

This time I didn't say it; you did.

star_munir wrote: Try to think over the meanings behind this and ceremonies before terming it non Islamic.

I have and I have read through Forums hare and many other publications. The have the indications that Pirs used ceremonies to court and to reinforece new Ismailis (converted from Hinduism). Also, there seems to be a shift now in the official ITRIB dokets that are used time to time and the one that are now the standard reading at new-moon nights and Satarda(??spell) nights( tonight is the the 5th night by the way in US). Don't ask me what are the changes are go ask for them (at ITRIB).

star_munir wrote: The Ismaili Pirs were not hindus but Aal-e-Rasool

I addressed that on top of this post.

star_munir wrote: and Green color in Ismaili flag represents Pir.

Green was the color of the Prophet, represents peace and harmony.

star_munir wrote: I was not at that time but this was what in books of hadiths as per Alwaez Abu Ali.

I was just told today that some people (be it Ismaili, Abu Ali and company and other Muslims) time to time have passed things as Hadiths and also have altered SMS's Frmans. Be care full there.

star_munir wrote:
At the time of Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] He used to give some thing made from dates and it was sukreet of that time. Dates were not so much popular in India but Indians like sweet dishes like seera,lapsi etc so this was introduces as Sukreet with each ingrediant giving lesson. I agree that seera is not sukreet until Niyaz is not added..

Ok, let me ask you a question: So should "Sukreet" be the same as the Indian version in the US? (In the us donuts are popular). Or It must be the same as what Pir Sadardin prescribed?

star_munir wrote:
Islam was not started with Prophet Muhammad [PBUH],

May be the concept (monotheism) but not Islam it self.

star_munir wrote:
it was completed at Prophet Muhammad [PBUH]. Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] was not the first Prophet but the last.

As a Muslim, every Muslim agrees with this.

star_munir wrote: The true religion is from the begining of this world and the religion of every Prophet was true religion i.e,Islam.

sorry to say this: Glass is half-full.

unnalhaq · Post by **unnalhaq** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:17 pm

ShamsB wrote: wow..i am a melon..

Nope! That will be insulting the poor melons. (I hope you have some sense of humor, I think this is not the first time someone had told you this!)
I do intend to reply to the rest as soon as I get a chance. I am continuing to update (edit) this post, just that I have a busy week coming up and I often go out of town. I try to post while I am out, but I am able to concentrate better when I am not as busy as I was last 3-4 days. As you know or you called it "crusade" that I am on many of the pages with you and Star and occasional exchange with KMaherAli and I don't know what happened to Kassamali (I think that was the name) and ShamsU.

ShamsB wrote: you sound like an ignorant sunni mulla giving a speech from a soap box about what is wrong with Khoja Ismailism instead of how to build bridges within the different ismaili tariqahs..instead of fostering the exchange of ideas and concepts..you have donned the cape of the righteous and are commenced on a crusade of sorts..
so since you sound like a sunni mullah to me..you should be one right?

You can call me what you want but sill you can not twist things on will.

ShamsB wrote: in your previous post..you have shown yourself to be ignorant of the basics of ismailism..
ismailism is universal..like islam..yet you have bound it in the cultural ties of the arabist world...
you want to go to an ismailism which is similar to wahabism right? WE SHOULD DO WHAT THE ARAB MUSLIMS DO..well they marry 4 women..if not more..the princes..(from 60 minutes on CBS btw) practise bisexuality..smoke hashish and do all sorts of haram things..their ways seem to be acceptable to you..( i am generalizing..trying to make a point)

You know very little about your own faith..and that shows from your post which is very ignorant and condescending to all other ismailies..you have no acceptance or tolerance..are you sure you're an ismaili?
if you are..then where is the spirit of brotherhood and unity..where is the spirit of learning...
There are phrases in the Qur'an which state that Islam was there from the day of creation and will be there to the day of judgement...
which means Islam is the oldest faith in the world and everything else is an offshoot of it..you need to go study a little bit more in night school..
the quran says that there were 124,000 messengers sent to every part of the earth..Now don't get excited..i know from reading what you write that for you..that should only mean Arabia and Pan Arabia..since that is the way of Islam that you subscribe to and accept....

For someone that claims to be from something closer to original ismailism than most of the khojas you seem to lack the basic understanding of islam or ismailism...
in terms of ghatpat...the ceremony of ghatpat..the niyaz...and the sukhreet or sweet is not a hindu ceremony at all..
this ceremony has been there from the time of the prophet and we have the authentication of this from not only Shia Scholars but Sunni Scholars as well...Ghatpat was introduced to the Khojas by Pir Sadardeen who wasn't Indian...he was from Iran (i could be wrong..but he wasn't indian)

in one of your statements you just compared Niyaz..or Abe Shafa to Cow Urine...something that Hazar Imam creates when he gives deedar..you equated it to the urine of a cow..are you sure you're an ismaili...

doesn't it surprise you that the 2 folks that are debating you on khojas versus your bias against them aren't khojas at all....Star Munir isn't a khoja and neither am I...

the way you interpret islam is very arabist and sunni...i don't agree with it..but as an ismaili..i do understand that you come from a different geopolitical background..a different cultural background and your practises are different from mine...and i accept that..i also accept that when in Rome do as the Romans do...
also as per our tariqah..any tariqah..any changes in any practise of the faith can only be done by Mowlana Hazar Imam..no one else..

in terms of Khoja time...i can make stereotypical and ethnic jokes and slurs about nonKhoja Ismailies all the time..however that will not be following a farman of the Imam..in regards to the spirit of brotherhood..as for showing up late for Dua..can you honestly tell me that you are 100% in your jamat khana attendance? and you show up before 1st dua?...we are no one to judge when and how who does what..we have to focus on the practice of our own faith...

Please tell me in what part of the world that ismailies do sacrifices..i.e. physical sacrifices..since you have claimed that in another statement in the previous post....

Please get your facts right..
I seriously think you need to chill a little..open your mind..go learn about the practise of the Khoja tariqah...don't be narrow minded...don't go following arabist islam because that isn't what the imam wants..the Imam wants us to have our own identity..actually go learn about ismailism..from all perspectives and all aspects..learn about the PLURALITY that MHI mentions in so many different farmans...

in a farman in Nairobi he has said..i told you to build bridges..not to cross them....
we are a distinct sect within the rest of the muslims..and as MHI has said..our diversity is the key to our strength and survival...

also i don't think i am going to respond to any more of your posts..because most of your posts are dedicated to insulting other tariqahs and i don't beleive this to be in the spirit of brotherhood..not only that you make statements and when asked to back them up..have yet to do so.
i would urge StarMunir to do the same..because a healthy discussion can only be had with one that is willing to learn..not with one that has a superiority complex that HE and HE ALONE in his practise is right..everyone else is wrong..or stupid..or pagan..from another post of his...
and if i am a PAGAN by your standards..i am happy to be Pagan..
i wish you all the best in your search..

Shams

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:42 pm

Dont mind but many of your posts are not making any sense here.

First you wrote,"For example The 48th Imam's farman that is still being read in Chicago suburban JKs about"...walking to JK." Well, most of the Jamet lives over 5 miles and it is not possible for them to walk"

To which I replied,"Yes you are right that it is not possible for every one to follow this Farman. The one who lives far away from JK can not come Jk by walking but he/she has to travel in car/bus etc but that not makes the Farman out dated. For example in olden times Tara Rani used to go to JK while riding on horse as there was not any Jamat khana in her city but yet she was very punctual."

To which you wrote that made not any sense. Instead of getting agreed that it is not only in current times that those who lives far away from Jk can not go by walking you wrote,"When you say punctual does that mean getting to JK by the end of 2nd Du'a? Because that seems to be the norm; I was told the by a Khoja that "Khoja Time" is 30 min behind."

Taran Rani was in Treta Jug i.e, Silver age. The title of Khoja was given to those ismailis who were converted by Pir Sadardin to Ismailism from hinduism in this modern period. Now read your post and decide youself isn't it was a nonsense reply.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:50 pm

I wrote previously,"when an ismaili goes to Jamat Khana and says Hai Zinda he or she gets the reward equivalent to give elephant for God and when some one replies Qayam Paya than there is a reward of horse. But it must be said with imaan and love"
Than you wrote about almul feel which not made any sense here. You wrote that at that time people used to give elephants and horses to their kings to which I replied that ismailis of that time were very poor [also there is a nice Gujrati song about conditions of that time in FAIR Hazrat Ali na janasheen basta hata Iraan maa] to which you wrote about Ganesg being god of hindu with face like that of elephant.
My comment was if some one says Hai Zinda he/she gets the reward of giving Elephant to God anf your reply about Ganesh..Whats the realtion of giving elphant to God and hindu god Ganesh? Wasn't your reply a non sense? Elephant and Horse there animals are mention because they are expensive not because Ganesh is hindu God.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:59 pm

You wrote,"That is something that I have observed over past 20-30 years, that how intollerent Khojas are (of Pluralism). "
Now read your own post and think who is intollerent,"Khojas are not Ismailis or Muslim that is how most see it as. If you dress like a Hindu(non-muslim, not just in India), have traditions like non-muslim,/Hindu, cultural values like non-muslim/Hindu, rituals like Hindu/non-muslim, and on and on people will call you Non-Muslim/Hindu"
Read the first line of your post above that Khojas are not ismailis or muslims that is how most see as and than you wrote,"I don't think nither you or I or anyone has a right to call anyone Kafir(s)."
It is you who said so. I wrote that no one of us has right to judge.
Now about pluralism I dont say you are wrong. I also agree that there are khojas who are intolerent but not all of them and you too are not tolerent as your post shows hatred and nonacceptence of practices of Khoja Ismailis. Here you are welcome to share your ideas,practices, quote Qasidas and religious hymns etc. No one has stopped you.
You wrote
"I have read through Forums hare and many other publications. The have the indications that Pirs used ceremonies to court and to reinforece new Ismailis (converted from Hinduism). "
I dont from which book you read so but from wherever you read or listen so is totally falsehood and has nothing to do with reality. All rites and ceremonies are in accordance with Islam and nothing Un Islamic is there. You may ask about any ceremony and we can discuss it in light of Islam.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:05 pm

You wrote,"Green was the color of the Prophet, represents peace and harmony"
I agree with it. Green is also colour of Pir. I want to repeat what I wrote in topic elders of jamat and pluralism..,"As a ismaili we have to believe in Pir as well as Imam. The Green color of ismaili flag represents Pir and Red colour Imam. As I told you that Pir not means the one who made Ginans. Ginans are composed by many who were not Pir like Syed Imam Shah,Syed Mohammad Shah,Syed Fateh Ali Shah etc
The word Pir is used for Imam Mustwada Present Imam is also Pir therfore we say Him our Spiritual Mother and Father. Imam Hussain was Imam and his brother Hazrat Hassan was Pir. The word for both Imam and Pir in arabic is Imam therefore we may hear saying Imam Hassan but Hazrat Hassan was actually Pir.
Also according to Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah,"THE COLOURS OF OUR FAMILY ARE, AS YOU KINOW, RED AND GREEN, THE REASON BEING THAT WE REPRESENT BOTH THE (OFFICES OF) SHAH AND THE PEER...."

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:16 pm

One question asked by KMaherAli you are unable to answer is,"May I ask you what would you consider as Ismaili/Muslim dress, tradition, cultural values, and rituals?"
You admit that you wears Pant Shirt in Jk also So if a women wears Sarhee oe a girl wears ghagra choli than how she can become or become like a hindu? If some one wears western dresses like frock, skirt blouse, t shirt ,pant shirt etc and remain muslim than it can also be while wearing Indian dresses. I am not taking favour of which dress is more appropriate to wear in Jk Indian, Western or Arabian..Its all culture and depends on likes and dislikes or matter of choice a particular boy or girl.
You termed many practices as hindusim..What do you think about it. Share your comments on it if you not agree with the words of Imam Sultan Mohamed Shah,""Thus Abraham, Moses, Jesus and all the Prophets of Israel are universally accepted by Islam. Muslims indeed know no limitation merely to the Prophets of Israel; they are ready to admit that there were similar Divinely inspired messengers in other countries Gautama Buddha, Shri Krishna and Shri Ram in India, Socrates in Greece, the wise man of China and many other sages and saints among peoples and civilizations, trace of which we have lost. Thus man's soul has never been left without a specially inspired messenger from the soul that sustains, embraces and is the universe."(Extract from The Memoirs of the Aga Khan by H.H. The Aga Khan III)"
Again I would like to tell that for Allah there is only one religion true religion i.e,Islam..though it completed when Hazrat Muhammad [PBUH] anounced Imamat of Ali [A.S] in Gadir-e-Khaum but yet it was always there in world and will always be there. All Prophets brought true religion. The religion which Jesus taught to people was not christanity as practised today..Same is the case with other Prophets. The teachings of all Prophets were same and that were of Islam although ceremonies or ways of practice and prayers were different.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Wed Apr 27, 2005 11:20 pm

Lastly answer to your simple question that was,"Ok, let me ask you a question: So should "Sukreet" be the same as the Indian version in the US? (In the us donuts are popular). Or It must be the same as what Pir Sadardin prescribed? "

Sukreet must be the same as taught by Pir Sadrdin until and unless Imam change and as you quote Farman earlier Imam can change it if He wants.

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