Interpretation of various ginans and related concepts

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad: I know the bearer and emitter to me.I wish the whole word to have a foto image of MHI and pray to him for salvation,they will be DEFINITELY blessed.

Mr. Intellectual, define NOOR? (real Noor is not wordly light). You have found your Noor in a piece of a paper or card board and worshiping that piece of paper for nothing. You are finding Noor in your intellectual darkness. Braying and barking intellectuals can't understand depth in Quran. You claim to be a divine intellectual, I don't know who gave certificate. Fallow what current Imam guided," REMEMBER ALLAH THROUGHOUT THE DAY".

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
NOOR is subtle light of divine intellect.
Subltle mean not solid,the word light mean enlighten of soul,mind etc.the ayat mention light not out of heat,fire so it means that it is not a light that measured in brightness/lumens count.the word light also give analogy and question if light out of heated is directed from sun ( source with form and shape).
NOOR being divine intellect ( content of Quran is called Noor bcoz it is divine intellect otherwise I can call it garbage if the noor is not understood as divine intellect.)
If formless light is sourced to sun ,then noor has to sourced to xyz,that can a human being( supported by Quran,hadith and said by themselves ).or animal,object or stars.
Last three is OUT.
My definition is used by teacher of holy book to students.
In future a better defination may come out or Imam says it one line..( imam has used the word understanding/intellect is one of speeches on explaining the ayat.
MHI has said in farman ,he is bearer of Noor,,Noor of ALI is above everything el.se.he is spiritual father.
All those on earth who has not understood that ayat is ashtrayed.
If noor definition was easy ,even God express it an analogy.
To know the bearer and see him is blessing ( that is maybe 0.2% population of earth.( in a way having indefinite visa for heaven) for other it can exams of many life cycles).
There are many sayings of IMAM SMS ,which are not farman but said and recordbe by some one.
Most has said in waez by Alweaz with approval of ITREB to refer not just farmans but incident and events of IMAM where matter of substance.
for example,MHI indentifies himself as spiritual father upon his greeting( my dear spiritual children),that is a part of Farman and also heard by some one during didar MHI saying to non Ismaili spouse that he is the spiritual father of all human beings.
One expressing his status is farman ,one expanding when he was questioned by an non Ismaili was he also her spiritual father.
What amuses ,why bhagats,leaders would ask MHI what is expansion when he became Imam rather non Ismaili asking bluntly in open audience many decades after.( ALI WISHED THAT on that day.remember what MHI said Allah= Ali+lah had control of all things.
I personally wanted this answer when I was just 6 years old ,asked people around.
one can recite the word Allah and even ALI said by MHI ,saying Allah 3 times, in same time word ALI can be said 5 times.So a baniya mind would try to seek 40% more value in just selection of word which are equal ( haqiqati) of same value ( by tariqati).
SHAQUE ALI PEE KASOTI TUMARI.
take it or leave it.
I see MHI as ALLAH/GOD.
so I am not indifferent to that word.
I have discovered the truth in that word (ALI+ lah).
Ummah will be shocked in just one or two imams away.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad:
NOOR is subtle light of divine intellect.
Subltle mean not solid,the word light mean enlighten of soul,mind etc.the ayat mention light not out of heat,fire so it means that it is not a light that measured in brightness/lumens count.the word light also give analogy and question if light out of heated is directed from sun ( source with form and shape).
NOOR being divine intellect ( content of Quran is called Noor bcoz it is divine intellect otherwise I can call it garbage if the noor is not understood as divine intellect.)
If formless light is sourced to sun ,then noor has to sourced to xyz,that can a human being( supported by Quran,hadith and said by themselves ).or animal,object or stars.
Last three is OUT.
My definition is used by teacher of holy book to students.
In future a better defination may come out or Imam says it one line..( imam has used the word understanding/intellect is one of speeches on explaining the ayat.
MHI has said in farman ,he is bearer of Noor,,Noor of ALI is above everything el.se.he is spiritual father.
All those on earth who has not understood that ayat is ashtrayed.
If noor definition was easy ,even God express it an analogy.
To know the bearer and see him is blessing ( that is maybe 0.2% population of earth.( in a way having indefinite visa for heaven) for other it can exams of many life cycles).
There are many sayings of IMAM SMS ,which are not farman but said and recordbe by some one.
Most has said in waez by Alweaz with approval of ITREB to refer not just farmans but incident and events of IMAM where matter of substance.
for example,MHI indentifies himself as spiritual father upon his greeting( my dear spiritual children),that is a part of Farman and also heard by some one during didar MHI saying to non Ismaili spouse that he is the spiritual father of all human beings.
One expressing his status is farman ,one expanding when he was questioned by an non Ismaili was he also her spiritual father.
What amuses ,why bhagats,leaders would ask MHI what is expansion when he became Imam rather non Ismaili asking bluntly in open audience many decades after.( ALI WISHED THAT on that day.remember what MHI said Allah= Ali+lah had control of all things.
I personally wanted this answer when I was just 6 years old ,asked people around.
one can recite the word Allah and even ALI said by MHI ,saying Allah 3 times, in same time word ALI can be said 5 times.So a baniya mind would try to seek 40% more value in just selection of word which are equal ( haqiqati) of same value ( by tariqati).
SHAQUE ALI PEE KASOTI TUMARI.
take it or leave it.
I see MHI as ALLAH/GOD.
so I am not indifferent to that word.
I have discovered the truth in that word (ALI+ lah).
Ummah will be shocked in just one or two imams away.

Of course Noor is subtle. Can Nor be divided, multiplied, subtracted or divided? You wrote," Noor is subtle light of divine Intellect". In primordial time Intellect was created by Allah. Now according to you Noor is subtle light of divine Intellect, it means Noor is at 3rd position, the sequence will be ALLAH- INTELLECT- NOOR. You quoted ayat e Noor from Quran (though in past you have discredited Quran and called it out dated book), in ayat e Noor Allah has explained Noor in parables as at the end of the ayat Quran says," WA YADHRIBULLAHIL AMSAAL LINNAS" means Allah coined parables for people to understand (importance of Noor). Noor can not be compared with sun light or sun rays as sun light is borrowed from prime source. If prime source out sources its Noor to Imam means Imam's Noor is not its Noor but is Noor of Allah means Allah out sourced his Noor to Imam to glow and emit Noor e Hidayat according to changing times. You keep writing Imam is God. Imam never claimed to be to be God of universe ( READ preamble 10 times to understand Imam's position ). Your statement is blasphemous.
In Ginanic literature the word Noor is not defined but is used in different ways and with different analogies. Ginans do not define Noor in satisfactory way.
You claimed looking at photo of Imam is worship and it is worship of Noor.

TASWEER UN KI DIL MERA BAHLA NA SAKEY GI
BAAT KARU(N) GA TOU WOH KHAMOSH RAHEY GI
DUA MAGU(N) GA UN SE TOU SUNN NA SAKEY GI

My answer to you was merely looking at photo of Imam is not ibadat because non Ismaili public also see photo of Imam in news papers, magazines, or on internet, will that be considered Ibadat?! Real ibadat is to obey Farman of Hazar Imam and current Farman of Imam is to REMEMBER ALLAH THROUGHOUT THE DAY. These words are of Imam whom you call God then follow Hidayat of your God, as rest of Ismailis do.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
Sun gives out rays with no condition ,so there IS NO PREMISE OF BORROW OR LEND ,if then by WHO.?
an analogy is taken as common sense percrt of 90% of ummah of Noor is and aslight,Sourced to God /quran.,saying of prophet.the whole concept is ALI as God ,now present MHI is in a parable a word TAWHID ,with shahada.
Understanding that expand the shahada to infinity and oneness with God.oneness does not come before recognise who is GOD,and unifying with his NOOR.
(coomonly termed at NOORANI didar ),Which we pray to ALI to grant that and not to called one of his brand and popular name Allah..
Imam said he is BEARER OF NOOR ,same as Sun is bearer of Sun light.He is not said that he is borrower of Noor from Mr x.
Mr x has loaned him that.
He is bearer of Noor ,he is face of Allah in heavens(plural) and earth,.
The ABSOULTE TRUTH it was ALI as the creator and final name chose of ALLAH as final of 350 names before that.
I may not pray dua ,I see him with eyes of my heart ,talk with him,joke with him and tell my problem,with zikr tasbih at his foto at dua time facing and looking at his foto.
TRUTH as in SUFi tariqat God is to be loved ,communicated two ways.not AN IGNORANT one who has NO form,face,communication,useless.
first break the parable of the word tawhid in the constitution.
If person cannot explain that word can be assumed to be barking,braying and hissing from birth till today.
not underdtanding that one word in Constitution and baatin of dua and tasbih cannot be called as ISMAILI at all to me
Admin is running a forum and not a zoo.
As told to me as some in IIS can used my form of definition to its student.
Only an ignorant will see the borrow,lend ,transfer in ayat of Noor.
if any Mr Allah is there ? It has added lah from name ALI borrowed to get to its name ( God speak and present himself in parable,so it should start from his name .is it a puzzle ?),who is GOD.
ALI AWAL,ALI AAKHIR
ALI ZAAHIR ,ALI BAATIN,
ALI NOOR, ALI NOORANI.
this 6 words are core essence that is explained in many lines, poem by Pir,Syeds Dai's.
NOBODY in the universe ever is above ALI
his selected name also COMES UNDER it that Ali+lah= Allah.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad:
Sun gives out rays with no condition ,so there IS NO PREMISE OF BORROW OR LEND ,if then by WHO.?
an analogy is taken as common sense percrt of 90% of ummah of Noor is and aslight,Sourced to God /quran.,saying of prophet.the whole concept is ALI as God ,now present MHI is in a parable a word TAWHID ,with shahada.
Understanding that expand the shahada to infinity and oneness with God.oneness does not come before recognise who is GOD,and unifying with his NOOR.
(coomonly termed at NOORANI didar ),Which we pray to ALI to grant that and not to called one of his brand and popular name Allah..
Imam said he is BEARER OF NOOR ,same as Sun is bearer of Sun light.He is not said that he is borrower of Noor from Mr x.
Mr x has loaned him that.
He is bearer of Noor ,he is face of Allah in heavens(plural) and earth,.
The ABSOULTE TRUTH it was ALI as the creator and final name chose of ALLAH as final of 350 names before that.
I may not pray dua ,I see him with eyes of my heart ,talk with him,joke with him and tell my problem,with zikr tasbih at his foto at dua time facing and looking at his foto.
TRUTH as in SUFi tariqat God is to be loved ,communicated two ways.not AN IGNORANT one who has NO form,face,communication,useless.
first break the parable of the word tawhid in the constitution.
If person cannot explain that word can be assumed to be barking,braying and hissing from birth till today.
not underdtanding that one word in Constitution and baatin of dua and tasbih cannot be called as ISMAILI at all to me
Admin is running a forum and not a zoo.
As told to me as some in IIS can used my form of definition to its student.
Only an ignorant will see the borrow,lend ,transfer in ayat of Noor.
if any Mr Allah is there ? It has added lah from name ALI borrowed to get to its name ( God speak and present himself in parable,so it should start from his name .is it a puzzle ?),who is GOD.
ALI AWAL,ALI AAKHIR
ALI ZAAHIR ,ALI BAATIN,
ALI NOOR, ALI NOORANI.
this 6 words are core essence that is explained in many lines, poem by Pir,Syeds Dai's.
NOBODY in the universe ever is above ALI
his selected name also COMES UNDER it that Ali+lah= Allah.

Without thinking you keep posting your antique formula Ali+La, La in Arabic means no or nothing, so your formula will read Ali is nothing.

Learn the meaning of SHAHADAH as mentiond in PREAMBLE. Let me quote for your easiness, the first article says," The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm Shahadah ' LA ILAH ILLALLAH, MUHAMMADUR RASULULLAH", IN above kalimah Shahadah THERE IS NO MENTION OF ALI. Obey Farman of Hazar Imam with pure thoughts and pure deeds then there is salvation and Fana, unifying with Noor. As I mentioned in my previous post, Imam said ' REMEMBER ALLAH THROUGHOUT THE DAY', He did not used the word Ali.
Allah created universe and heavenly bodies, sun is one of tiny particle in vast universe. God bestowed light on sun to deliver freely according to instructions of Allah in service of other creatures of Allah.

You wrote," Admin is running a Forum and not a zoo", don't forget that you are also a member of that zoo.

No doubt Imam is bearer of Noor, but Noor of 'WHO' and that is Allah.

You claimed,"I may not pray dua ,I see him with eyes of my heart ,talk with him,joke with him and tell my problem,with zikr tasbih at his foto at dua time facing and looking at his foto". What a braying and insane barking!!? How many jokes you told Imam. In your ibadat were you doing zikr or just joking and playing with Imam. Your words are" I may not pray Dua" then what you keep doing during Dua, finding Noor in card board.

Your statement is, "As told to me as some in IIS can used my form of definition to its student". Why not you join IIS, may be some day you will become CEO. SELF PRAISE HAS NO RECOMMENDATION.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
Half baked shahada have zero zero zero value to us without tawhid therein.our full kalima has ALI in it.
so one one draw what could be primary expansion pre qualifying for tawhid.
I must askrd many educated Shariati, why do SHAHADA start with word Laa ( nothing) ?
what does it mean ?
Till now they have not able to answer the first easy word.
It will take 100 life cycles to understand the word Tawhid if attached to SHAHADA,
even educated Ismaili does know of tawhid as MUST &IMMEADIATE Word with SHAHADA.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad:
Half baked shahada have zero zero zero value to us without tawhid therein.our full kalima has ALI in it.
so one one draw what could be primary expansion pre qualifying for tawhid.
I must askrd many educated Shariati, why do SHAHADA start with word Laa ( nothing) ?
what does it mean ?
Till now they have not able to answer the first easy word.
It will take 100 life cycles to understand the word Tawhid if attached to SHAHADA,
even educated Ismaili does know of tawhid as MUST &IMMEADIATE Word with SHAHADA.

Every Ismaili has to follow articles of PREAMBLE given by Hazar Imam. Shahadah is the main and important part of Preamble. Being as an Ismaili Muslim one must abide by and accept Shahadah as mentioned by Imam. If you reject it means you are not an Ismaili. Being an Ismaili follow the Farman.
Without accepting Shahadah one can not achieve the goal of Tawhid and unifying with Allah.
Learn Arabic or at least being as a Muslim you should know meaning of
LA ILAHA ILLALLAH which means 'there is no god but ALLAH'. The word LA here is related to ILAH means no god (with small g).

[Admin]

I am requesting Shiva and Nuseri to address issues and not to have personal discussions and disputes here.

This is a Forum that will be read many years after both of you are dead so please post issues and not personal attacks

Admin

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
My point of observation:
1.I asked the first standalone word and not the second word.
2.the cardinal slogan of Islam starts with word Laa, either the shahda is faulty or that word has precise meaning.
3.It is said perfection if of God ,then the word there is true.
4.all the quack ,ulemas,Nazi ,moulana,pesh imams ,muftis of the world farting away on YouTube with 6 inch bushy beards if they cannot explain why that very first word indentifing Islam ,then I am 100% sure that they All ALL have 0% knowledge of baatin aspects of holy book.
That is disaster is making for the Ummah.
If they ponder over first word ,then even 100 more words they get crap and rubiish meanings as deemed fit to them.
4.Tawhid (one ness with God ) is achieved is many religion other than Islam,so the name of God and particular prophet is not must.
If that is true then all earlier name of god and Prophets were fake and false.
This confirms that even the word ALLAH is a name like earlier names almost 350 names of God.
I have explained the baatin of kalima in other posts.It is evolution of life and process of spirituality for humanity and not just to one sect of humanity.
5.One composer ( along with pirs and sufis)whom I assume got that word meaning of the poem/song.
JAB KUCH NAHI THAA(LAA) WAHI THAA,WAHI THAA.
ALI THAA ALI THAA.
5.either SHAHADA is faulty or the ULEMAS of the world explain that standalone word.
First word is Islam.
I asked one maulana that religion is visible while faith is invisible,if this right than is Islam a faith or religion?
He has not come back yet?

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad:
My point of observation:
1.I asked the first standalone word and not the second word.
2.the cardinal slogan of Islam starts with word Laa, either the shahda is faulty or that word has precise meaning.
3.It is said perfection if of God ,then the word there is true.
4.all the quack ,ulemas,Nazi ,moulana,pesh imams ,muftis of the world farting away on YouTube with 6 inch bushy beards if they cannot explain why that very first word indentifing Islam ,then I am 100% sure that they All ALL have 0% knowledge of baatin aspects of holy book.
That is disaster is making for the Ummah.
If they ponder over first word ,then even 100 more words they get crap and rubiish meanings as deemed fit to them.
4.Tawhid (one ness with God ) is achieved is many religion other than Islam,so the name of God and particular prophet is not must.
If that is true then all earlier name of god and Prophets were fake and false.
This confirms that even the word ALLAH is a name like earlier names almost 350 names of God.
I have explained the baatin of kalima in other posts.It is evolution of life and process of spirituality for humanity and not just to one sect of humanity.
5.One composer ( along with pirs and sufis)whom I assume got that word meaning of the poem/song.
JAB KUCH NAHI THAA(LAA) WAHI THAA,WAHI THAA.
ALI THAA ALI THAA.
5.either SHAHADA is faulty or the ULEMAS of the world explain that standalone word.
First word is Islam.
I asked one maulana that religion is visible while faith is invisible,if this right than is Islam a faith or religion?
He has not come back yet?

You asked;

1.I asked the first standalone word and not the second word.

LA means no or nothing, so what! In Ginan it is said ,LA THI UNN ZAAT KAHAWEY'.

2.the cardinal slogan of Islam starts with word Laa, either the shahda is faulty or that word has precise meaning.

Shahadah is not faulty but your thinking is faulty. In PREAMBLE SHAHADAH IS GIVEN BY IMAM, don't you trust Imam your God?!

3.It is said perfection if of God ,then the word there is true.
all the quack ,ulemas,Nazi ,moulana,pesh imams ,muftis of the world farting away on YouTube with 6 inch bushy beards if they cannot explain why that very first word indentifing Islam.

I have quoted Farman and am not interested in farting thinking of any one having bushy beard or clean shave.

4.Tawhid (one ness with God ) is achieved is many religion other than Islam,so the name of God and particular prophet is not must.

5.Before Prophet Muhammad there were 124,000 prophets who guided mankind in worldly affairs and spiritual matters.

6.This confirms that even the word ALLAH is a name like earlier names almost 350 names of God.

There are hundreds of thousands of names used for God through out history in thousands of languages and not 350 as you mentioned.

7.I have explained the baatin of kalima in other posts.It is evolution of life and process of spirituality for humanity and not just to one sect of humanity.

According to freedom of thinking and speech you have right to think as you want, but chapter of spirituality started with very first human being.

8.I asked one maulana that religion is visible while faith is invisible,if this right than is Islam a faith or religion?
He has not come back yet?

Faith is because of religion and religion explains the faith. May be moulana scared by looking at you and disappeared.

9.JAB KUCH NAHI THAA(LAA) WAHI THAA,WAHI THAA.
ALI THAA ALI THAA.

Let me complete your 11/2 inch couplet with little change;

NA THA KUCHH TOU KHUDA THA
NA HOTA KUCHH TOU KHUDA HOTA
DHUBOYA TUJH KO HONNEY NEY
NA TU HOTA TOU KIA HOTA

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
A poor grade D level status like bushy beard gang reply.if one cannot get into baatin,stay away on what Ismailis should believe and do.Admin can tolerate disaster for limited time.
In a jovail way but true is essence.
Plain SHAHADA is like only two coupon ticket ,first one is of hell and second of earth( Chakker kaath the raho).
While we Ismaili have full kalima ( shahada& tawhid).
IMAM SMS farman that one find ismailis everywhere except hell.
So our ticket also has two coupons ,first of earth and second of heavens.
There is also an farman that we are FORTUNATE to be born as an Ismaili,( WHY,WHY)
Best part is we surely have a golden ticket with a ship/mode & pilot/ guide. ( imamat) to reach us there.
JO AAPNE BAAP KO NAHI PECHANA
DHUR PADI US AULAAD PE.
A Farman of MHI is like Man without Faith is like a dust.he did use the word religion, bcoz outwardly looking religious but with faith in God can also be like dust.
Talking of faith with love and inspiration can be NOOR.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad:
A poor grade D level status like bushy beard gang reply.if one cannot get into baatin,stay away on what Ismailis should believe and do.Admin can tolerate disaster for limited time.
In a jovail way but true is essence.
Plain SHAHADA is like only two coupon ticket ,first one is of hell and second of earth( Chakker kaath the raho).
While we Ismaili have full kalima ( shahada& tawhid).
IMAM SMS farman that one find ismailis everywhere except hell.
So our ticket also has two coupons ,first of earth and second of heavens.
There is also an farman that we are FORTUNATE to be born as an Ismaili,( WHY,WHY)
Best part is we surely have a golden ticket with a ship/mode & pilot/ guide. ( imamat) to reach us there.
JO AAPNE BAAP KO NAHI PECHANA
DHUR PADI US AULAAD PE.
A Farman of MHI is like Man without Faith is like a dust.he did use the word religion, bcoz outwardly looking religious but with faith in God can also be like dust.
Talking of faith with love and inspiration can be NOOR.

I could not find any intellectual thing in your above post. In Urdu slang it is called " HAZYAAN BAKNA". Repeatedly you keep writing same irrational things. Come up with some new ideas.
You keep rejecting Imam's Farman about Shahadah in PREAMBLE. Fallow current Farman of Imam. You wrote," IMAM SMS farman that one find ismailis everywhere except hell". In this Farman MSMS talked about TRUE Ismailis who fallow Imam's Farman.

You wrote,"There is also an farman that we are FORTUNATE to be born as an Ismaili,( WHY,WHY)".
What you think, rest of 7 billion human beings are unfortunate and go to hell?
Noor does not has father or son. Noor ka na koi baap hai na ma, na koi beta. DHUR PADI USS PAR JO GHALAT BAYANI KAREY!

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
.if Allah is Noor,then it is ALL KNOWING,ALL SEEING and speaking as well.
Just by statement of last post,this person does consider himself spiritual child of ALI/noor.
We are not children of physical,biological Imam we see.,we are his Spiritual ( spark of noor) of bearer of Noor.( Imam/Allah).
The word spiritual mean not physical or biological ,IT mean a close as a family member of Noor.
So the whole humanity has Spiritual father.
In a life span of studies one out of 2-5 million people who start education spanning 25 years+ starting from nursery level becomes a PhD .,so imagine if exams for each person is 1000 life cycles ,with marks counted everyday of life.
So out of 7 billion that could reach thru only 20 million (Ismaili) has passed this test ,THESE ARE FORTUNATE ONES.,while others may or may not be where level of faith related rewards is a benchmark.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad:
.if Allah is Noor,then it is ALL KNOWING,ALL SEEING and speaking as well.
Just by statement of last post,this person does consider himself spiritual child of ALI/noor.
We are not children of physical,biological Imam we see.,we are his Spiritual ( spark of noor) of bearer of Noor.( Imam/Allah).
The word spiritual mean not physical or biological ,IT mean a close as a family member of Noor.
So the whole humanity has Spiritual father.
In a life span of studies one out of 2-5 million people who start education spanning 25 years+ starting from nursery level becomes a PhD .,so imagine if exams for each person is 1000 life cycles ,with marks counted everyday of life.
So out of 7 billion that could reach thru only 20 million (Ismaili) has passed this test ,THESE ARE FORTUNATE ONES.,while others may or may not be where level of faith related rewards is a benchmark.

There are flaws in your post. You wrote." So the whole humanity has one spiritual father". If spiritual father is same one of humanity then how come only 20 millions are blessed and rest are garbage. You have quoted in your previous post that," We (Ismailis) are fortunate to be born in Sat Dharam", so you are counting only 20 millions fortunate out of 7+ billions. It is called religious discrimination. Other point, how come you say that 20 million living souls have already passed the test, so far exams are on and test results are not declared by Allah.

[Admin]

Imam is Imam of the whole creation but only his beloved spiritual children believe in him, and those blessed souls are about 20 M.

[shivaathervedi]

Imam is Imam of the whole creation but only his beloved spiritual children believe in him, and those blessed souls are about 20 M.

First there aren't 20 million, the number is lower than 12 million, any ways.
The Farman quoted was," We (Ismailis) are FORTUNATE to be born in Sat Dharam". So decision was already made in haven that particular 20 million are blessed ones discarding 7 billions. What is the fault of 7 billion poor souls.
Did Imam or his missionaries conveyed message or introduced Imam as Imam of universe to follow him for salvation?
Five fingers are not equal, there are good fellas but there are many corrupt souls in 20 million which are bad apples having bad habits doing bad deeds, their ethical values are worst than animals but still they will be forgiven because they are herd of shepherd.

[Admin]

20 million is what remain after all the bad apples are discounted. 20 M souls or around are those recognised by the Imam as part of his community, which means some may say they are Ismailis but they are not in Imam's list and some may not be outwardly be recognised as ismailis but they are Imam's followers.

unless you can see the pur souls, I wonder how you recognise the number of our Imam's Murids?

We do accept whatever numbers of real "Ismailis" our Imam gives. We try to follow his Divine Intellect, not really the intellect and the counting ability of any Tom, Dick and Harry.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
Humanity started with two humans and 7 billion is their progeny.So all soul were guided to right part thru prophet of their time.Many ashtrayed ,so did their progeny this multiplied in million fold.reward and punishment is Definitely there after physical end of each life cycle ,as God is all forgiving life again to cavth up.
A father will have best for its children who are in HIS HOUSE and some child who disobeys and leaves the house.So based on status of soul/ruh/spark of Noor ,if in 25 year of academic pursuit(test of minds)only one become PhD out of appx 200000.So is the progress of each soul on earth ,those worthy to part of the House/Ship is xx million out of 7 billion.( akin to academic period of not 25 years but 2500 years++ is the test for souls)
In holy book,God has said about destroyed many eras/civilization running for 1000+ year, those saved if one read in single digit figures ,what may started in few or many thousands which each eras/civilization.
So a soul of one Ismaili in value is more or equal to 3500 ordinary soul, which has disconnected or have weak connection to God.
There is An Ayat Ali+lah = Allah will guide those to WHOM HE WISHES ,not every tom ,dick & harry.

[shivaathervedi]

20 million is what remain after all the bad apples are discounted. 20 M souls or around are those recognised by the Imam as part of his community, which means some may say they are Ismailis but they are not in Imam's list and some may not be outwardly be recognised as ismailis but they are Imam's followers.

unless you can see the pur souls, I wonder how you recognise the number of our Imam's Murids?

We do accept whatever numbers of real "Ismailis" our Imam gives. We try to follow his Divine Intellect, not really the intellect and the counting ability of any Tom, Dick and Harry.

Is there any Ismaili census done lately? If not how come you claim there are 20 million Ismailis where as some books and articles mention less than 15 million. I live and move in Ismaili community, you can not imagine how many thousands have left Ismaili Tariqa in a decade because of loose ideology of 500 years old rejected and not acceptable by youth and mentality of some so called Ismaili intellectuals. I call such persons Tom, Dick, and Harry of community. At present I know hundreds of dishonest murids of Imam deceived their fellow members of same community!! May be still they will get free ticket to paradise!

[Admin]

Is there any Ismaili census done lately? If not how come you claim there are 20 million Ismailis where as some books and articles mention less than 15 million.

The number in the census if there is one or if there will be one will only show people who claim to be Ismaili.

However only the Imam knows whose soul has really accepted him, be the person born in Ismaili community or in another community.

Is that so difficult to understand?

[Admin]

You have time for farting on this site

Yes your posts are deleted because you do not follow the rules of posting. Yours are not the only one deleted. And personal posts address to me or any individuals are also deleted. Read the rules before posting. I have repeated so many times that I find you have taken more time than you deserve. Do not expect me to reactivate your account next time. It will not be suspended, it will be deleted. Follow the rules!

[shivaathervedi]

You have time for farting on this site

Yes your posts are deleted because you do not follow the rules of posting. Yours are not the only one deleted. And personal posts address to me or any individuals are also deleted. Read the rules before posting. I have repeated so many times that I find you have taken more time than you deserve. Do not expect me to reactivate your account next time. It will not be suspended, it will be deleted. Follow the rules!

You have selected a portion of my statement out of context and started bashing me. I have not used the word farting for you but that is for brain less intellectual because of his attitude. When you started allocating time on this site? let me know how many lines are paragraphs I can post. Re visit his derogatory post against Ginans, Pirs, Cummunity and you left his posts alive and keep deleting replies of other members.

[Admin]

I have not used the word farting for you but that is for brain less intellectual

You stop insulting any people here please. And stop personal discussion. And stop using offensive words.This is a Forum. Use emails if you don't want to read the rules of posting.