QUL

[kmaherali]

KBhai
During Hz Ali's time there was no piri muridi. It developed few centuries later. Hz Ali led Namaz for whoever came to Masjid for Namaz. Jamat included his Shia (supporters) and non Shia. Everybody were just plain Muslims..

There was a Jamat albeit a very small minority. In fact the Prophet was the Pir of the Ismaili Tariqah of that time. Although from the zaher we say that the Prophet appointed HA to be his successor, from the batin HA was already the Imam of Ismaili Tariqah, though not recognised by other Shias.

I can guarantee you that Muslims will never accept Ali as Allah. They do not need external document to comprehend this concept.

That is given and hence we do not articulate such a concept in our external documents! External documents are meant for concepts such as Ali is from Allah.

[kmaherali]

Dua is a Tariqah practice and Namaz is a Sharia practice. Soon we will have Ismaili Namaz which will be similar to the Namaz of other denominations.
I do NOT agree on it AT ALL ,soon we could have Ismaili namaz.Can you justify in points your observation and statement ???

The structure of the Ismaili Namaz will be similar with that of other Tariqahs, but the content will be different. The content will emphasize Imamat. The Namaz is meant to be recited in congregations of all Muslims and hence its structure will be the same as the Namaz of other denominations.

I have requested for your qualitative input in an other post,please oblige..Please do not yourself become a part of Ignorance by replying to all & sundry junk posts of non Ismailis

I am sorry I did not see it. I find it very difficult to comprehend your posts.

[nuseri]

To kmaherali : Ya Ali Madad.
On what reliable info is your assumptions based on ? Structure, content etc.
I have total in different of total dilution of sharia and may he not tariqa going down sharia.
A student already in a high school does not need primary level physical training and nursery rhymrs Ringa ringa roses as daily dose to educate itself futher and look for a decent job.

[kmaherali]

To kmaherali : Ya Ali Madad.
On what reliable info is your assumptions based on ? Structure, content etc.
I have total in different of total dilution of sharia and may he not tariqa going down sharia.
A student already in a high school does not need primary level physical training and nursery rhymrs Ringa ringa roses as daily dose to educate itself futher and look for a decent job.

Sharia Namaz is not for religious reasons only. Below is the Farman made about the Namaz.

"It is also in this context that I have instructed my institutions to make available to the Jamat globally, within the next year or so, a formal, uniform text of the Shia Imami Ismaili Namaz that I will have approved. This text, which is fully aligned with most forms of Namaz practised historically within the Jamat, and in many other schools of Islam, will reflect the centrality of the hereditary Imamat in our Tariqah."(Dec, 13th 2008)

I hope that explains how the structure of the Namaz will align with the Namaz of other schools of Islam.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
The farman quoted is almost 100 months old.in this world of technology ,a generation hold.
It is kept as back burner and nothing may ever come up.
On the contrary in dec 2015 ,in mulakat to leaders from India & Africa, MHI Hinted zikr in name of God when told youth drifiting away from religion.and asked solutions for the next Imam in the asking board to prepare for text
Ali+ lah=Allah has control over all things.
Today nearly 39% of world sane population have ran away from religion & faith for good.
In an analogy ,answers needed.if high school students are told say 200 times a day that teacher you good,great,nice and forgive us.student with reasoning will seek ,what is all this for? And in due course of time ,they will bunk classes and finally run away from the school.THIS IS AN ABSLOUTE REALITY.
based on MHI mulaqat message and Farman of Imam SMS that one day Imam may tell tell you stop praying dua.
Faith is greater than rituals of any religion.
IMAM is future ready and may not bind itself to past.
The average sharaiti performes 1.5 namaz a day 03 years back and now in next just 07 years it would be 1 a day( instead of 05 prescribed.).the average shariati may feeling 80% of the dose is futile and useless. This is truth.100 year back it was 4x performed ,now 1x performed ,in 50 years 1ex in jumma in a week.as they would feel than 34 times more per week is waste of time.
Imam SMS all religions without reasoning will disintegrate and what disintegrates slowly disappears.
If namaz like old period do come with more physical time and it can loose over 66% of present day attendance.
We are blessed to have option in lieu of our missing the dua for certain circumstances.
MHI hinted about youths low attendance.
I feel uttering and posturing won't be need for the future al all.
Did prophet got salvation thru meditation for for acrobatic acts 05 times a day instead of meditation.
We are tariqat moving toward marifat where prayers are Not needed AT ALL.only greater, intellectually stimulating acts as desired by ALI.

[shivaathervedi]

You wrote," ...but there are obscure periods as well and we can't be sure of all." In DAUR SATR did our Imams and followers stopped saying salat? Of course not, they followed the existing practice of salat practiced by Mowla Ali and Imam Ja'far Sadiq..

I meant that we cannot be sure of what practices took place but I have accepted the word of MHI that both the Sharia and Tariqah practices have always existed together. Salat and Dua have always existed as per Imam.

You wrote," Du'a is basis of our beliefs which we articulate to others." Why we suppose to articulate? Do they force us to do so or, Do we allow non Ismailis to present when we recite our Du'a so that they be satisfied.

Dua provides the basis for others to understand our doctrines and beliefs. I gave you an example that during the Haji Bibi case, our Dua was presented as evidence of our beliefs. Hence it has to be in a language that is acceptable by other Tariqahs. The inclusion of the Panj tan paak was for the purpose of maintaining harmony with other Shia communities.

When we say," YA IMAM I ZAMAAN ANTA QUWWATI............ THEN AT END WE RECITE, ANTAL IMAMUL HAQQUL MUBEEN, AND THEN ALLAHUMA LAKA SUJUDI WA TA'ATI ( you know the meaning ). We prostrate to Allah.
.

Exactly the reflection of my point. The original Dua did not state protration to Allah but upon the name of the Imam. It was modified due to the sensitivities of the sister communities.

You wrote," Sure MSMS's audience was his follower...." The question is about that important Farman of MSMS in front his followers and that is different than his previous Farmans of Ali Allah..

There is no difference at all. As I said before he referred to an example from history wherein Hazarat Ali said Namaz in public. The audience of Hazarat Ali was general Umma.

On quote of Zararah, do Imam needs security, is he in danger, does he needs protection, does he needs body guards? If he needs protection then how come he will protect his herds..

It is not a question of any threat. It is simply the nature of an esoteric tradition - that you don't reveal matters to those who are not qualified to recieve it. This applies to any esoteric sect. It is not just restricted to our Tariqah.

You wrote," We still recite ya Hazar Imam in Tasbih....". This is contrary to our Du'a. In Du'a we pray to Allah and prostrate to Allah that what the meaning of Du'a says. Imam has emphasized his mureeds to learn meaning of Du'a.

Dua has multiple levels of meaning. You just don't stick to the basic level.

Namaz is considered as a Shariyah practice, if Shariyah Namaz and Du'a existed together means for centuries we neglected Namaz, though I consider Du'a as Salat/Namaz. Now when ITREB will start the Ismaili Namaz in what manner we will practice both together. Will we allow non Ismailis to say Namaz with us, if yes then we shall need separate premises? Will Ismaili ladies be allowed to participate in Namaz with non Ismailis, if yes what will be dress code for ladies? Shall we say Du'a and Namaz one after other or will there be separate Du'a timings? How will be Du'a guzai, will that be same as we practice now a days, ya Imam e Zaman tu(n) asanjha gh........? There are many other problems and POOR ITREBs are confused how to implement.

You wrote," Du'a has to be in a language which is acceptable by other Tariqas." Why are we so apologetic!! For six centuries Ismailis of Sub Continent recited the same Du'a!! Was MSMS under some kind of out side pressure? The inclusion of PUNTAN PAAK was also included in old Du'a, please refer to 10th part of old Du'a.

The second last paragraph of old Du'a says," SHAH JO NOOR SADAIE(N) BHARPUR, MADAD E ALI, SHIFAYAT E RASUL, ITA'AT E KHUDA..... and last paragaph has the same kalima e Shahadah which we recite in new Du'a.

You wrote, " The audience of Hazrat Ali was general Ummah." Are Ismailis not part of Ummah. The followers of Hazar Imam are part of the Muslim Ummah.

You wrote," Du'a has multiple levels of meaning." For uniform meaning ITREB has translated the Arabic text and has provided it to jamaits on Hidayat of Imam to follow. Every Ismaili should follow that meaning. If Shiva translate in one way, Kmaherali in other way, Admin in third way and Nuseri in no way that will create a great confusion in jamaits.

[kmaherali]

Namaz is considered as a Shariyah practice, if Shariyah Namaz and Du'a existed together means for centuries we neglected Namaz, though I consider Du'a as Salat/Namaz. Now when ITREB will start the Ismaili Namaz in what manner we will practice both together. Will we allow non Ismailis to say Namaz with us, if yes then we shall need separate premises? Will Ismaili ladies be allowed to participate in Namaz with non Ismailis, if yes what will be dress code for ladies? Shall we say Du'a and Namaz one after other or will there be separate Du'a timings? How will be Du'a guzai, will that be same as we practice now a days, ya Imam e Zaman tu(n) asanjha gh........? There are many other problems and POOR ITREBs are confused how to implement..

I think we never neglected Namaz. It is only that it has never been a compulsory aspect of our Tariqah. Many Ismailis do attend Namaz especially on Fridays. I don't think that we will be required to say it in Jamat Khana as such, but rather the Ismaili Namaz will be available if a person chooses to recite it. It is an optional aspect of our Tariqah. It is not an imposition. Just like Baitul Khayal, it is optional.

So long as one keeps the Tariqah aspects of our faith separate then there are no issues at all regarding the Tasbi etc. Our traditions and essence will remain the same as per Farmans of the Imam.

There was extensive discussion on Namaz a while back at:

AIGLEMONT 13 DEC. 2008 HYDAYAT

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 68&start=0

You wrote," Du'a has to be in a language which is acceptable by other Tariqas." Why are we so apologetic!! For six centuries Ismailis of Sub Continent recited the same Du'a!! Was MSMS under some kind of out side pressure? The inclusion of PUNTAN PAAK was also included in old Du'a, please refer to 10th part of old Du'a..

I don't think it is a matter of being apologetic. It is about not giving offence to other Muslims. Over the past six centuries we were in the 'batini' domain. Most Muslims did not know of the existence of Satpanth traditions. However the climate has changed today and all Muslims are seeking to understand each other. Hence the Imam is using expressions of building bridges etc. That was not the case a century ago. Also the Wahabbi influence is relatively recent.

You wrote, " The audience of Hazrat Ali was general Ummah." Are Ismailis not part of Ummah. The followers of Hazar Imam are part of the Muslim Ummah..

They are part of the Umma, but they have a different interpretation than others. They believe in the living Imam, others don't.

You wrote," Du'a has multiple levels of meaning." For uniform meaning ITREB has translated the Arabic text and has provided it to jamaits on Hidayat of Imam to follow. Every Ismaili should follow that meaning. If Shiva translate in one way, Kmaherali in other way, Admin in third way and Nuseri in no way that will create a great confusion in jamaits.

What ITREB has provided is the official version. In an esoteric tradition there are always layers of meaning. That is the difference between and esoteric tradition and an exoteric tradition.

A Syrian Ismaili will never interpret Ali yullah as being Ali from Allah.

[shivaathervedi]

Namaz is considered as a Shariyah practice, if Shariyah Namaz and Du'a existed together means for centuries we neglected Namaz, though I consider Du'a as Salat/Namaz. Now when ITREB will start the Ismaili Namaz in what manner we will practice both together. Will we allow non Ismailis to say Namaz with us, if yes then we shall need separate premises? Will Ismaili ladies be allowed to participate in Namaz with non Ismailis, if yes what will be dress code for ladies? Shall we say Du'a and Namaz one after other or will there be separate Du'a timings? How will be Du'a guzai, will that be same as we practice now a days, ya Imam e Zaman tu(n) asanjha gh........? There are many other problems and POOR ITREBs are confused how to implement..

I think we never neglected Namaz. It is only that it has never been a compulsory aspect of our Tariqah. Many Ismailis do attend Namaz especially on Fridays. I don't think that we will be required to say it in Jamat Khana as such, but rather the Ismaili Namaz will be available if a person chooses to recite it. It is an optional aspect of our Tariqah. It is not an imposition. Just like Baitul Khayal, it is optional.

So long as one keeps the Tariqah aspects of our faith separate then there are no issues at all regarding the Tasbi etc. Our traditions and essence will remain the same as per Farmans of the Imam.

There was extensive discussion on Namaz a while back at:

AIGLEMONT 13 DEC. 2008 HYDAYAT

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 68&start=0

You wrote," Du'a has to be in a language which is acceptable by other Tariqas." Why are we so apologetic!! For six centuries Ismailis of Sub Continent recited the same Du'a!! Was MSMS under some kind of out side pressure? The inclusion of PUNTAN PAAK was also included in old Du'a, please refer to 10th part of old Du'a..

I don't think it is a matter of being apologetic. It is about not giving offence to other Muslims. Over the past six centuries we were in the 'batini' domain. Most Muslims did not know of the existence of Satpanth traditions. However the climate has changed today and all Muslims are seeking to understand each other. Hence the Imam is using expressions of building bridges etc. That was not the case a century ago. Also the Wahabbi influence is relatively recent.

You wrote, " The audience of Hazrat Ali was general Ummah." Are Ismailis not part of Ummah. The followers of Hazar Imam are part of the Muslim Ummah..

They are part of the Umma, but they have a different interpretation than others. They believe in the living Imam, others don't.

You wrote," Du'a has multiple levels of meaning." For uniform meaning ITREB has translated the Arabic text and has provided it to jamaits on Hidayat of Imam to follow. Every Ismaili should follow that meaning. If Shiva translate in one way, Kmaherali in other way, Admin in third way and Nuseri in no way that will create a great confusion in jamaits.

What ITREB has provided is the official version. In an esoteric tradition there are always layers of meaning. That is the difference between and esoteric tradition and an exoteric tradition.

A Syrian Ismaili will never interpret Ali yullah as being Ali from Allah.

The Golden Jubilee Farman is for every day Namaz and not just for Juma Namaz. As you know Juma Namaz was started in MSMS'S time and he had allowed to say Juma Namaz on Sunni Hanafi Tariqa in Sub Continent which is continued till today, except not folding hands. Prior to that there is no record available indicating Sutpunthi's performed Juma Namaz, though out side Sutpunthi circle in Central Asian countries Ismailis prayed five times daily plus Jumam Namaz.

Du'a is not meant for non Ismailis. Non Ismailis are not allowed in JK while saying Du'a. To learn the meaning is not obligatory on them. Frankly speaking they even do not care because mostly do not consider us Muslims. If some one is interested is most welcomed to understand Du'a and its meaning.

Ismailis are Muslims and are part of Ummah. Does any effort in past was made to explain Muslims generally, what the concept of Imamah is? If Ismailism is so attractive then mostly Muslims should have adopted our Tariqa. Where is the fault line!!

Du'a wording is same therefore meaning should be same for all Ismailis. Ismailis should follow the official version of meaning, if some one will start translating on its own according to his/her knowledge or back ground or concepts then there should be disturbance and chaos. ITREB has not given any esoteric meaning of Du'a, just simple translation so that each Ismaili should understand easily and follow.

Yes still there are some senior Ismailis who say Ali Allah but mostly young generation do not consider Hazar Imam as God.

[Admin]

Please do not divert, stick to the subject. There is no need to mix all of your paranoia in every threads.

[nuseri]

To zznoor: Ya Ali Madad.
You mentioned what all forms a part of one time Namaz.
What is the average TIME taken from adhaan to salaam all in between it for one namaaz ?

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
Let us try to understand just two important words in Islam.When westerners her they fear for their life as if some tragic event may take place near to them.
The words are ALLAHUAKBAR.
it loo like common sense/ sharia to anybody.What we see as act of ignorance the tribal prayers ,which are now as tourist attraction.
To any Any educated/rational/tariqat mind ,it must raise a question that Ali+lah= Allah was/is/ will be always great. then why I am saying this 60 times a day and what is my benefit in it.?
This reasoning is tariqat.
The haqiqat is that God want yourself to be great amongst humanity around you. The finding of that question and effort towards it.(essence of faith)
The achievent of being great in reality is marifat.( experience/taste of essence)
There are different/varing levels of intellect ,our each few words of Dua has deep essence in it.
What a Talibani mulla teaches a child this word and what quacks like zakir naik and others preach.
The core logic ANY WORDS OF PRAYER IS NOT FOR GOD BUT TO BLESS YOURSELF TO THAT HIGH esteemed level.our Dua starts at tariqat with interconnected and links to Haqiqat & Marifat.( intellectual simulating )
Even a donkey like human knows that God is great ,then why yell out 50 times a day ,and not knowing what's it means for yourself.
In future highest numbers will RUN away from this acts in multi million and even close to a billion then with advent of education and opening up of open/fearless freedom of prayers in thier countries.
If I explain three words of our Dua ,you all will be suprized ,even Haqiqatis may take time to absorb it.
This noble words because of radicals sound like words from Hell to many in western and advance countries.
Answer need two shariati members.

[kmaherali]

The Golden Jubilee Farman is for every day Namaz and not just for Juma Namaz. As you know Juma Namaz was started in MSMS'S time and he had allowed to say Juma Namaz on Sunni Hanafi Tariqa in Sub Continent which is continued till today, except not folding hands. Prior to that there is no record available indicating Sutpunthi's performed Juma Namaz, though out side Sutpunthi circle in Central Asian countries Ismailis prayed five times daily plus Jumam Namaz..

The Namaz was intended to be available to any murid who feels the need and chooses to recite Namaz whether daily or Juma day. But the important thing is that it is optional and not imposed.

Du'a is not meant for non Ismailis. Non Ismailis are not allowed in JK while saying Du'a. To learn the meaning is not obligatory on them. Frankly speaking they even do not care because mostly do not consider us Muslims. If some one is interested is most welcomed to understand Du'a and its meaning..

Yes Dua is not meant for non-Ismailis, but they can refer to it for research and scholarly work. In some cases even in legal issues. MHI had said in his Farman that we should not give offence to anyone reading the Dua. Hence Ali from Allah is meant for that purpose. Murids of course will understand it in a different light.

Ismailis are Muslims and are part of Ummah. Does any effort in past was made to explain Muslims generally, what the concept of Imamah is? If Ismailism is so attractive then mostly Muslims should have adopted our Tariqa. Where is the fault line!!.

Imamat is rooted in esotericism which is generally difficult for the majority. Hence it has always attracted the minority. This is the case with Sufism or mystical sects of other traditions.

Du'a wording is same therefore meaning should be same for all Ismailis. Ismailis should follow the official version of meaning, if some one will start translating on its own according to his/her knowledge or back ground or concepts then there should be disturbance and chaos. ITREB has not given any esoteric meaning of Du'a, just simple translation so that each Ismaili should understand easily and follow..

Dua like the Qur'an is open to multiple meanings. There will be no chaos so long as individuals retain their own understanding to themselves. While giving the basic meaning ITREB should emphasize the esoteric nature of our Tariqah and encourage students to explore different meanings to deepen their understanding and faith.

Yes still there are some senior Ismailis who say Ali Allah but mostly young generation do not consider Hazar Imam as God.

I think the young are in the process of finding it out for themselves, rather than being told. Once they arrive at the correct understanding through personal search, they will be stronger in their faith in Ali Allah.

[zznoor]

If I explain three words of our Dua ,you all will be suprized ,even Haqiqatis may take time to absorb it.

Please do and only in three words

[nuseri]

To zznoor: Ya Ali Madad.
I observe you as a fair person with qualitative rational mind and chose to disconnect itself to Spiritualty aspect.
I have asked the question first on TIME needed.please reply.
I will do answer my conviction in due time.

[nuseri]

To zznoor: Ya Ali Madad.
I asked some shariatis,the time give told to me was 24-30 minutes for each full act mentoned by as part of namaaz.
Even at 25 minutes x5 time that comes over 2 hours a day.
If one read the jail manuals and Geneva convention on treatment of prisoners, nobody should be enforced except day time labour to any forced acts even religious over certain time allocated
This is call of collective wisdom of humanity.
Our old Dua of last century was junked for new one and present one can be subject to changes/etc in near future.
Our Dua total time for 3x is just richly loaded time taken total for three is 14 minutes ,well within collective wisdom/laws for humanity.We have junked which was just 100 years old.bcoz religion & ritual evolves with time not the underlying essence of faith.
I am asking you a personal question with a heavy heart.
Have we lost you as a family member ? as you chose to go out of the house ,but still present on this website feels that you are still on fringes of the home ground.

[shivaathervedi]

The Golden Jubilee Farman is for every day Namaz and not just for Juma Namaz. As you know Juma Namaz was started in MSMS'S time and he had allowed to say Juma Namaz on Sunni Hanafi Tariqa in Sub Continent which is continued till today, except not folding hands. Prior to that there is no record available indicating Sutpunthi's performed Juma Namaz, though out side Sutpunthi circle in Central Asian countries Ismailis prayed five times daily plus Jumam Namaz..

The Namaz was intended to be available to any murid who feels the need and chooses to recite Namaz whether daily or Juma day. But the important thing is that it is optional and not imposed.

Du'a is not meant for non Ismailis. Non Ismailis are not allowed in JK while saying Du'a. To learn the meaning is not obligatory on them. Frankly speaking they even do not care because mostly do not consider us Muslims. If some one is interested is most welcomed to understand Du'a and its meaning..

Yes Dua is not meant for non-Ismailis, but they can refer to it for research and scholarly work. In some cases even in legal issues. MHI had said in his Farman that we should not give offence to anyone reading the Dua. Hence Ali from Allah is meant for that purpose. Murids of course will understand it in a different light.

Ismailis are Muslims and are part of Ummah. Does any effort in past was made to explain Muslims generally, what the concept of Imamah is? If Ismailism is so attractive then mostly Muslims should have adopted our Tariqa. Where is the fault line!!.

Imamat is rooted in esotericism which is generally difficult for the majority. Hence it has always attracted the minority. This is the case with Sufism or mystical sects of other traditions.

Du'a wording is same therefore meaning should be same for all Ismailis. Ismailis should follow the official version of meaning, if some one will start translating on its own according to his/her knowledge or back ground or concepts then there should be disturbance and chaos. ITREB has not given any esoteric meaning of Du'a, just simple translation so that each Ismaili should understand easily and follow..

Dua like the Qur'an is open to multiple meanings. There will be no chaos so long as individuals retain their own understanding to themselves. While giving the basic meaning ITREB should emphasize the esoteric nature of our Tariqah and encourage students to explore different meanings to deepen their understanding and faith.

Yes still there are some senior Ismailis who say Ali Allah but mostly young generation do not consider Hazar Imam as God.

I think the young are in the process of finding it out for themselves, rather than being told. Once they arrive at the correct understanding through personal search, they will be stronger in their faith in Ali Allah.

Namaz shall not be optional. It shall be for all jamaits to pray as Imam will guide. Why Imam shall take pain just for few followers who for this or that reason want Namaz.

What kind of research or scholarly work non Ismaili Muslims want to do on Du'a. They know Arabic better than Satputhi Ismailis and know well the meaning of Aliyullah.

Ismailism is not a difficult Madhab but some of our old missionaries and few scholars have made it difficult for drumming about esotericism. Esoteric understanding is a personal affair depending on one's intellectual IQ and a perfect teacher. Sheep, goats, chicken, mosquitoes, monkeys, Mr. N do not have same IQs.

What are the multiple meanings of " ALLAHUMA BI HAQ I MUHAMMADINIL MUSTAFA WA ALIYYINIL MURTADHA WA FATIMATI ZAHARA WAL HASANI WAL HUSSAIN; ALLAHAUMA BI HAQQI MOWLANA ALI, MOWLANIL HUSSAIN.........

Mostly Muslims say Mowla Ali was caliph, some say he was Pir/Murshid, others say he was Imam/ intercessor, majority say he was a family man married 22+ times, had 31+ sons and daughters, only few say he is God. On contrary no Muslim dare to say ALLAH is Pir/Murshid/ Imam/ Caliph/ intercessor or He is a family man having wife and children. Every Muslim would say Allah is beyond comprehension. He is what He is, can't be explained or compared.

[shivaathervedi]

If I explain three words of our Dua ,you all will be suprized ,even Haqiqatis may take time to absorb it.

Please do and only in three words

Mr. N does not know Du'a and its meaning. His formula is Ali+La ( in Arabic La means NO), therefore his 3 words which he claims are La, La, and La and he disappeared.

[kmaherali]

Namaz shall not be optional. It shall be for all jamaits to pray as Imam will guide. Why Imam shall take pain just for few followers who for this or that reason want Namaz..

In his Farman MHI said that the complementarity between Namaz and Dua has existed throughout our history. This does not mean that Namaz was obligatory always. It has only been optional. Therefore logically it will be optional when the new Ismaili Namaz will be introduced.

It is hard enough for murids to maintain 3 times a day Dua. A Mursheed would not impose a practice that is difficult for everyone to follow.

What kind of research or scholarly work non Ismaili Muslims want to do on Du'a. They know Arabic better than Satputhi Ismailis and know well the meaning of Aliyullah..

There are many kinds of scholarly work that would entail a scholar to study our beliefs. The way our community functions is very much a function of our beliefs. Hence any anthropological work would entail a study of Dua and our practices.

Ismailism is not a difficult Madhab but some of our old missionaries and few scholars have made it difficult for drumming about esotericism. Esoteric understanding is a personal affair depending on one's intellectual IQ and a perfect teacher. Sheep, goats, chicken, mosquitoes, monkeys, Mr. N do not have same IQs..

MHI in one of his interviews said:

"One of the myths surrounding you is that some people in the West think of you as a living God. Not only is that not true, but it is blasphemous?" To which MHI answered: "Absolutely. I mean, as you know the faith of Islam was revealed at a time the Arabian continent was idolatrous and idolatary - all forms of idolatary are totally prohibited by Islam. It is certainly true to say that the Western World doesn't necessarily understand the theology of Shi'ism nor indeed the theology of many mystical sects whether they are Shia or Sunni or Christian. Mysticism, in it's essence is difficult."

What are the multiple meanings of " ALLAHUMA BI HAQ I MUHAMMADINIL MUSTAFA WA ALIYYINIL MURTADHA WA FATIMATI ZAHARA WAL HASANI WAL HUSSAIN; ALLAHAUMA BI HAQQI MOWLANA ALI, MOWLANIL HUSSAIN..........

That is not the only statement in Dua. There are many others such as Aliyullah which can have multiple meanings.

Mostly Muslims say Mowla Ali was caliph, some say he was Pir/Murshid, others say he was Imam/ intercessor, majority say he was a family man married 22+ times, had 31+ sons and daughters, only few say he is God. On contrary no Muslim dare to say ALLAH is Pir/Murshid/ Imam/ Caliph/ intercessor or He is a family man having wife and children. Every Muslim would say Allah is beyond comprehension. He is what He is, can't be explained or compared.

That is why mysticism is difficult for the majority of the Muslims. The concept of Ali Allah is mainly for those who understand mysticism and Sufism. It is not meant for everyone, hence Ismaili sect is a minority.

[Admin]

He is what He is, can't be explained or compared.

Yes you are absolutely right, Imam is beyond comprehension.

[zznoor]

He is what He is, can't be explained or compared.

Yes you are absolutely right, Imam is beyond comprehension.

So is Allah To Muslim and
Hanuman or ganpati or shiva or Shivling etc to Hindu and
JC to Christian

[shivaathervedi]

He is what He is, can't be explained or compared.

Yes you are absolutely right, Imam is beyond comprehension.

In one of his sermon, Mowla Ali said about Allah:
" None can fully understand or explain His being however hard he may try. Reason and sagacity can not visualize Him. Intelligence, understanding and attainment can not attain the depth of knowledge to study or scrutinize the Godhead. Human faculties of conception, perception, and learning, and attributes of volition, intuition and apprehension can not catch sight of His Person or fathom the extent of His Might and Glory." ( Nahj ul Balagha ).

Hazar Imam said," PERFECTION IS ONLY FOR ALLAH."
Imam is Hujjatullah and the Viceregent of Allah as mentioned in Ismaili books.

[Admin]

Imam is Hujjatullah and the Viceregent of Allah as mentioned in Ismaili books.

Imam is whatever you want him to be for you. If you consider him as a small kid, he is a small kid and if you consider him as your hairdresser, he is your hairdresser. Then do not expect much from him except to cut your hairs.

[shivaathervedi]

Namaz shall not be optional. It shall be for all jamaits to pray as Imam will guide. Why Imam shall take pain just for few followers who for this or that reason want Namaz..

In his Farman MHI said that the complementarity between Namaz and Dua has existed throughout our history. This does not mean that Namaz was obligatory always. It has only been optional. Therefore logically it will be optional when the new Ismaili Namaz will be introduced.

It is hard enough for murids to maintain 3 times a day Dua. A Mursheed would not impose a practice that is difficult for everyone to follow.

What kind of research or scholarly work non Ismaili Muslims want to do on Du'a. They know Arabic better than Satputhi Ismailis and know well the meaning of Aliyullah..

There are many kinds of scholarly work that would entail a scholar to study our beliefs. The way our community functions is very much a function of our beliefs. Hence any anthropological work would entail a study of Dua and our practices.

Ismailism is not a difficult Madhab but some of our old missionaries and few scholars have made it difficult for drumming about esotericism. Esoteric understanding is a personal affair depending on one's intellectual IQ and a perfect teacher. Sheep, goats, chicken, mosquitoes, monkeys, Mr. N do not have same IQs..

MHI in one of his interviews said:

"One of the myths surrounding you is that some people in the West think of you as a living God. Not only is that not true, but it is blasphemous?" To which MHI answered: "Absolutely. I mean, as you know the faith of Islam was revealed at a time the Arabian continent was idolatrous and idolatary - all forms of idolatary are totally prohibited by Islam. It is certainly true to say that the Western World doesn't necessarily understand the theology of Shi'ism nor indeed the theology of many mystical sects whether they are Shia or Sunni or Christian. Mysticism, in it's essence is difficult."

What are the multiple meanings of " ALLAHUMA BI HAQ I MUHAMMADINIL MUSTAFA WA ALIYYINIL MURTADHA WA FATIMATI ZAHARA WAL HASANI WAL HUSSAIN; ALLAHAUMA BI HAQQI MOWLANA ALI, MOWLANIL HUSSAIN..........

That is not the only statement in Dua. There are many others such as Aliyullah which can have multiple meanings.

Mostly Muslims say Mowla Ali was caliph, some say he was Pir/Murshid, others say he was Imam/ intercessor, majority say he was a family man married 22+ times, had 31+ sons and daughters, only few say he is God. On contrary no Muslim dare to say ALLAH is Pir/Murshid/ Imam/ Caliph/ intercessor or He is a family man having wife and children. Every Muslim would say Allah is beyond comprehension. He is what He is, can't be explained or compared.

That is why mysticism is difficult for the majority of the Muslims. The concept of Ali Allah is mainly for those who understand mysticism and Sufism. It is not meant for everyone, hence Ismaili sect is a minority.

If Pir Sadardin had imposed Fatimi Tariqa Namaz on convetries then we should not have been discussing it today. Du'a in sub continent and Namaz in Central Asian countries continued side by side from 13th century to 20th century till today. To day majority of Ismailis perform Namaz and it is not optional for them. It shows importance of Namaz. Imam wants uniformity in our prayer system that's why he ordered the uniform Namaz for all his followers globally. In his 2008 Farman Imam's Hidayat is clear. He said,

"It is also in this context that I have instructed my institutions to make available to the Jamat globally, within the next year or so, a formal, uniform text of the Shia Imami Ismaili Namaz that I will have approved. This text, which is fully aligned with most forms of Namaz practised historically within the Jamat, and in many other schools of Islam, will reflect the centrality of the hereditary Imamat in our Tariqah."(Dec, 13th 2008).

Du'a is simple and plain, can you explain what kind of mysticism is involved in Du'a. More than 90% Ismailis of sub continent do not know even meaning of Du'a, what to talk about mysticism with them!

Quranic Ayats, Hadiths, and Du'aiya Kalimaat used in our Du'a are mostly common with other Tariqas except few, for example, recitation of names of our Imams. ( though Bohra and Shia communities recite names of their Imams in whom they believe).

Bohra Ismaili community have preserved the Fatimi Tariqa Namaz and they are practicing it. In late 70's there was talk of Ismaili Fatimi Tariqa Namaz in our community but for unknown reasons it was delayed. In 2008 Imam ordered, but almost 10 years passed still top leadership and ITREB are confused to implement it OR they do not want to implement it!!

[shivaathervedi]

Imam is Hujjatullah and the Viceregent of Allah as mentioned in Ismaili books.

Imam is whatever you want him to be for you. If you consider him as a small kid, he is a small kid and if you consider him as your hairdresser, he is your hairdresser. Then do not expect much from him except to cut your hairs.

I quoted from the Ismaili books you accept it or not. U are degrading Imam by calling him hairdresser. By the way If you need free haircut, go to down town Montreal please.

[kmaherali]

If Pir Sadardin had imposed Fatimi Tariqa Namaz on convetries then we should not have been discussing it today. Du'a in sub continent and Namaz in Central Asian countries continued side by side from 13th century to 20th century till today. To day majority of Ismailis perform Namaz and it is not optional for them. It shows importance of Namaz. Imam wants uniformity in our prayer system that's why he ordered the uniform Namaz for all his followers globally. In his 2008 Farman Imam's Hidayat is clear. He said,!!

While there are fundamental practices such as Dua which are uniform for all Ismailis, there has to be room for diversity to account for the different historical contexts in which our traditions have evolved. I think the non-optionality of Namaz for those who perform it is due to the context and not according to Farman. Please quote any Farman of the Imam's making Namaz non-optional for the majority. The Farman mentions the importance of having one uniform Namaz as opposed to different versions prevailing. It does not indicate that Namaz has to be preformed uniformly across our community. The uniform Namaz is available to those who choose to practice it.

Du'a is simple and plain, can you explain what kind of mysticism is involved in Du'a. More than 90% Ismailis of sub continent do not know even meaning of Du'a, what to talk about mysticism with them!!!

Mysticism is the essence of our faith which is esoteric. Without that our faith is no different than other exoteric traditions.

Quranic Ayats, Hadiths, and Du'aiya Kalimaat used in our Du'a are mostly common with other Tariqas except few, for example, recitation of names of our Imams. ( though Bohra and Shia communities recite names of their Imams in whom they believe).!!

That is true because we are first Muslims and then Ismailis. Hence we have common ayats with other tariqahs.

In 2008 Imam ordered, but almost 10 years passed still top leadership and ITREB are confused to implement it OR they do not want to implement it!!

There has never been an order to perform Namaz. It is optional depending upon each individual.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
How come volcanic ash is still surviving in a sterile zone?
In the same Naghul balaga.
Moula Ali says HE IS THE CREATOR.
does this dust has faith in these words? ,or only in words spoken by Hz Ali as army chief,guide, khalifa,father, Pir & IMAM.( all levels can be observed)
Need reply and NOT escape LIKE A COWARD every week to escape the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
MHI clearly said in his farman to take out tasbih and recite holy names and the tasbih is your PRAYER at that moment.( any time any where, no posturing and time duration).HE knows Ismailis have their own mind and not donkies.
He is clearly hinting what sort of prayers is allowed and break free all from chains of common sense.
Even current DUA may get shorten and go away ONE FINE DAY IN FUTURE.
Imam sees jamat in year 2047 and NEVER EVER in acts of 1017 AD.
MHI want is mail is to be stalwarts like in Fatimid era blooming with prodgies,geniuses and intellects in thousands then.
SHARIAT KI JAGAH/MAKAAM Gutter se thoda uppar HAI.(JAMEEN PE)
ALI KO HUME FAL KE JAAD AUR ASMAN PE LEE JANAA CHAHTA HAI.

[zznoor]

That is true because we are first Muslims and then Ismailis. Hence we have common ayats with other tariqahs.

If Ismailis are Muslim first and Ismail second then commands of Quran and established Sunna come first is it not?

[zznoor]

There has never been an order to perform Namaz. It is optional depending upon each individual.

If Ismailis are Muslim first then they do not need order to perform Namaz. Allah's order is recorded in his book Quran and method and timing are interpreted by by various Imams for their followers based on Prophetic Sunna.

[zznoor]

Mysticism is the essence of our faith which is esoteric. Without that our faith is no different than other exoteric traditions.

There was no Mystism during Prophets time or Tabiin or Ravi to Ian time.mystism is innovation and hand to hand with performance of quranic commands.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad:
How come volcanic ash is still surviving in a sterile zone?
In the same Naghul balaga.
Moula Ali says HE IS THE CREATOR.
does this dust has faith in these words? ,or only in words spoken by Hz Ali as army chief,guide, khalifa,father, Pir & IMAM.( all levels can be observed)
Need reply and NOT escape LIKE A COWARD every week to escape the ABSOLUTE TRUTH.
MHI clearly said in his farman to take out tasbih and recite holy names and the tasbih is your PRAYER at that moment.( any time any where, no posturing and time duration).HE knows Ismailis have their own mind and not donkies.
He is clearly hinting what sort of prayers is allowed and break free all from chains of common sense.
Even current DUA may get shorten and go away ONE FINE DAY IN FUTURE.
Imam sees jamat in year 2047 and NEVER EVER in acts of 1017 AD.
MHI want is mail is to be stalwarts like in Fatimid era blooming with prodgies,geniuses and intellects in thousands then.
SHARIAT KI JAGAH/MAKAAM Gutter se thoda uppar HAI.(JAMEEN PE)
ALI KO HUME FAL KE JAAD AUR ASMAN PE LEE JANAA CHAHTA HAI.

Your are worst than gutter. You wrote," In the same Nahjul Balagah, Mowla Ali says, he is the creator." Please mention the the sermon # from Nahjul Balagah where Mowla Ali claimed he is the creator. Quote the paragraph, if you fail, will get 100 lashes ( imaginary) for misguiding.
Imam said," Du'a is foundation of our Tariqa." First you learn the meaning of Du'a, understand it, and then post. The key word for Ismaili khojas of India is," Remember ALLAH through out the day." Some donkeys do not grasp it.
According to you, if current Du'a will get shortened, don't worry then there will be replacement of it and that will be Namaz.