QUL

[shivaathervedi]

ONE DAY MOWLA MURTAZA ALI AT TIME OF NAMAZ SAID;" O GOD, I DO NOT DESIRE PARADISE NOR I AM AFRAID OF HELL, GIVE ME WHAT EVER PAIN (TROUBLE, DISTRESS) YOU WANT, BE GOOD TO ME, I AM YOUR LOVER (ASHIQ).
Farman by MSMS, mentioned in the Farman booklet "RUHANI ROSHINI", printed by Ismailia Association for Pakistan, second edition 1981, page # 48.

Need comments from stars of Heritage including Admin, Kmaherali, Shams B, 103, Nuseri, Arlenebatada and others.

The Namaz is a Sharia practice. At a Sharia practice the audience is the public at large, so he is speaking according to the capacity of the Umma hence he is referring to Allah just as MHI says Bismillahir raham nir rahim when making speaches in public - a bit of common sense is required after all the discussions we have gone through.

There is a Ginanic verse which states:

ejee ek feekar munivar tamaaree chhe amne
maanas roope saaheb jaanno ho bhaai ji.......................4

O Respectful: O true believers! We have one concern about you and that is that you might confuse Haazar Imaam in His physical form as an ordinary man

If Namaz is a shariah practice then what about Du'a?
Each Imam said Bismillahir Rahman nir Rahim. Each Imam said 'Praise be to Allah'. They said Subhanallah, Al hamdulillah, AllahuAkbar, Insha Allah during delivering Farmans, and Farmans are made in front of followers. May be audience of Mowla Ali was not Sutpunthi!!
When Farman is made, I always say Aamin and become senseless. Order is to obey. In above Farman words speak for them selves. Was the audience of MSMS of same standard as of Mowla Ali in his time?
No doubt Imam is Noor of Allah that what Pir Sadardin has explained in the couplet you quoted. Hazar Imam in one of his Farman said," As Muslims we are forbidden to attach human concepts to God."

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
I do not dig in to any any books nor have any.I repost extract what has been posted in this site from trusted n reliable member.this extract was posted by Admin earlier. (Khutba e bayan.
I believe in and living Imam Farman & statement.
1.I am bearer of Noor.
2.he is the spiritual father of whole humanity.
3.imamat is beyond comprehension.
4.Noor of Ali is ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE.
that is much more than regardless he uses the brand name Allah or say inshallah and other fancy words.I may wish to live and relive and intense and utmost intense lover of Ali. Alliah is just the final brand name of God ,they were 350 names before that.IT IS NOT NOT NOT AT ALL AN ENTITY.
Read imam jaffer sadiq/Ali shah datar on Allah, onwho & what that brand names and stand for.Let each tell what level they rate me and reptile as ASAP.

[kmaherali]

If Namaz is a shariah practice then what about Du'a?."

Dua is a Tariqah practice. The Imam is not supposed to say his Dua.

Each Imam said Bismillahir Rahman nir Rahim. Each Imam said 'Praise be to Allah'. They said Subhanallah, Al hamdulillah, AllahuAkbar, Insha Allah during delivering Farmans, and Farmans are made in front of followers. May be audience of Mowla Ali was not Sutpunthi!!."

Yes they would have said all such things of course. But the audience matters on how they express themselves. Did you see the Imam start with Bismillah and reading his remarks when he was with his murids celebrating his 80th birthday?

When Farman is made, I always say Aamin and become senseless. Order is to obey. In above Farman words speak for them selves. Was the audience of MSMS of same standard as of Mowla Ali in his time?
No doubt Imam is Noor of Allah that what Pir Sadardin has explained in the couplet you quoted. Hazar Imam in one of his Farman said," As Muslims we are forbidden to attach human concepts to God."

Then say Ameen to the Farman below.

There is no one greater than Myself. If you think of God, then it is Myself. If you think of Pir, then too it is Me. If you think about Imam, then too it is Me. And your beloved Master is also Me. There is no one except Myself... (Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah Vadi Jamatkhana, March 16, 1902)

[arlenebatada]

Why I asked you question beside others, because in couple of your posts you added s.a.a.s after name of Prophet Muhammad and a.s or RA after name of Mowla Ali and a.s after Hazar Imam. When Noor e Muhammadi and Noor e Ali are same then s.a.a.s should come after both pious names.
S.A.A.S abbreviation of salallahu alaihi wasalam.
A.S abbreviation of alahis salam
R.A abbreviation of radhi allahu ta'lla.

I think there are two questions being asked over here. The first one is regarding the Light of Muhammad (s.a.a.s) and the Light of ‘Ali (a.s). And the second one is regarding the abbreviations added after the names.

Regarding the first question, I won’t go into ontological and philosophical depth. Instead, I’ll directly quote hadiths from Rasulullah Muhammad (s.a.a.s) which say that he and ‘Ali possess the same light.

"I and 'Ali are one and the same light.."
(Fayd al-Kashani's Walaya, Reason & Inspiration in Islam, 463)

“’Ali is my own soul (ka-nafsi)”
(Ahmad b. Shu'ayb al-Nasai, Khasa'is Amir al-mu'minin 'Ali ibn Ali Talib (Tehran, 1419/1998), p.104.)

“(O ‘Ali!) You are from me, and I am from you (anta minni wa anaa minka)”
(Nisaburi, al-Mustadrak, p.924, no.4672.)

"’Ali is from me and I am from ‘Ali and he is the guardian of every believer after me"
(Sunan Tirmidhi, volume 2, page 298.)

“..whoever separates himself from you, O 'Ali, separates himself from me.”
(Nisaburi, Mustadrak, p.927, no.4682.)

“Whoever curses 'Ali curses me, and whoever curses me curses God.”
(Nisaburi, Mustadrak, p.925, no.4674)

“'Ali is from me and I am from him ('Ali minni wa wa ana minhu), and nobody can fulfil my duty but myself and 'Ali”
(Nasa'i, Khasa'is, p.106.)

"Ali is from me and I am from Ali and no one represents me except Ali."
(Sunan ibn Majah, Hadith No.119)

And the hadiths are multitudinous in number. It is impossible for me to quote them all.

Regarding the question of abbreviations,
r.a- I don’t use it usually except when I talk to sunnis in their language or that I make quotations from their works which contain this abbreviation.
a.s- It means peace be upon him. It is a form of sending our salwat (blessings).
s.a.a.s- It means peace be upon him and his progeny. It is a salwat (blessings) which can only be used for Rasulullah Muhammad (s.a.a.s) because all the Imams belong to the progeny of Rasulullah Muhammad (s.a.a.s). So the progeny of any Imam is in fact the progeny of Rasulullah Muhammad (s.a.a.s).


Why do we send salwat (blessings) on Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s)?

It is because Allah (swt) has commanded us in the holy Qur’an. He says:
“Indeed, Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation.”
(Surah al-Ahzab [33:56])

When this verse was revealed, the Muslims asked the Prophet : “How should we invoke blessings (on you, O Prophet of Allah)?”

The Prophet said: “Do not invoke ‘incomplete’ blessings on me (i.e. only Allahumma salli ‘ala Muhammad [O Allah! Bless/let Peace be upon, Muhammad] ).”

They again asked: “How should we invoke blessings on you?”

He replied: “Say: Allahumma salli ‘ala Muhammad wa Ali Muhammad.”
“O Allah! Bless/Peace be upon, Muhammad and the progeny of Muhammad”
(Ibn Hajar, As-Sawa‘iq al-Muhriqah, 2nd edition (Cairo: Maktabat al-Qahirah), Book 11, Chapter 1, p. 146)

We should send salwats on Rasulullah Muhammad (s.a.a.s) and the Imams because in this world they have a body like us, they live like us and they face problems like us, in fact they face more problems than us. Having said that, sending salwat on them ultimately benefits us as well.

Allah (swt) says:
“Have you not considered how Allah set forth a parable of a good word (being) like a good tree, whose root is firm and who branches are in heaven, yielding its fruits in every season by the permission of its Lord? And Allah sets forth parables for men that they may be mindful.”
(Surah Ibrahim [14:24-25])

Regarding this verse, Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s) said:
“I am the tree, ‘Ali is the trunk and Fatima is its branch and due to 'Ali and Fatima it (the tree) has the capability of bearing fruits (who are) Hasan and Husain. The believers of Ahl al-Bayt are its leaves..”
(Hayat al-Qulub Vol.3)

Just like watering a tree benefits its leaves, likewise sending salwats on Prophet & the Imams (peace be upon them) benefits the believers. That's why we should always recite salwat whenever we hear/take the name of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s) or the name of any of our Imams (a.s.) and should put relevant abbreviations whenever we write their names.

A personal question if you want to reply. Are you an ex alumnus of IIS?

Nope.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
A very good farman selected from many by kmaherali.A haqiqati Ismaili will acknowledge all true farmans and will interpret at what level/status of ALI it is said,the audience, circumstances etc.
Only a person without faith will say that farman posted is a lie or escape from answering it.MHI has said that a person without Faith is like a dust that has no value on this earth inspite of being seen as a human being.even a skin of certain reptiles has sale value.
Admin should know that a participle of dust can damage a sterile laboratory.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad.
I do not dig in to any any books nor have any.I repost extract what has been posted in this site from trusted n reliable member.this extract was posted by Admin earlier. (Khutba e bayan.
I believe in and living Imam Farman & statement.
1.I am bearer of Noor.
2.he is the spiritual father of whole humanity.
3.imamat is beyond comprehension.
4.Noor of Ali is ABOVE EVERYTHING ELSE.
that is much more than regardless he uses the brand name Allah or say inshallah and other fancy words.I may wish to live and relive and intense and utmost intense lover of Ali. Alliah is just the final brand name of God ,they were 350 names before that.IT IS NOT NOT NOT AT ALL AN ENTITY.
Read imam jaffer sadiq/Ali shah datar on Allah, onwho & what that brand names and stand for.Let each tell what level they rate me and reptile as ASAP.

Brainless creature, the first line of your post suggests that you do not research on your own but is dependent on research of others and that is called plagiarism. usually you have been quoting couplet of Syed Ahmad Shah, AHMAD ALI ALI KARANTA........, in original text it is not ALI ALI KARANTA.... BUT;
AHMAD HARI HARI KARANTA
PECHHEY HONI HOYA SO HOYA
You keep writing the word ALLAH is a brand name, what about ALI , is this brand name of HARI.
Yes Imam is bearer of Noor but Noor of WHO?
I quoted the farman of MSMS, these are not my words. Accept the words of Imam or reject it.

[shivaathervedi]

If Namaz is a shariah practice then what about Du'a?."

Dua is a Tariqah practice. The Imam is not supposed to say his Dua.

Each Imam said Bismillahir Rahman nir Rahim. Each Imam said 'Praise be to Allah'. They said Subhanallah, Al hamdulillah, AllahuAkbar, Insha Allah during delivering Farmans, and Farmans are made in front of followers. May be audience of Mowla Ali was not Sutpunthi!!."

Yes they would have said all such things of course. But the audience matters on how they express themselves. Did you see the Imam start with Bismillah and reading his remarks when he was with his murids celebrating his 80th birthday?

When Farman is made, I always say Aamin and become senseless. Order is to obey. In above Farman words speak for them selves. Was the audience of MSMS of same standard as of Mowla Ali in his time?
No doubt Imam is Noor of Allah that what Pir Sadardin has explained in the couplet you quoted. Hazar Imam in one of his Farman said," As Muslims we are forbidden to attach human concepts to God."

Then say Ameen to the Farman below.

There is no one greater than Myself. If you think of God, then it is Myself. If you think of Pir, then too it is Me. If you think about Imam, then too it is Me. And your beloved Master is also Me. There is no one except Myself... (Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah Vadi Jamatkhana, March 16, 1902)

We call Du'a as Salat and it is a Shariyah practice. Tariqat comes after fulfilling Shariyat. Imam do not say Du'a but he does practice Namaz. Mowla Ali used to say Namaz with his followers may be with low grade audience!!

Celebrating birth day is not a RELIGIOUS AFFAIR but an occasion of happiness.

I follow the current Farman. The Farman I quoted is of later date what you quoted for yours. Please mention the name of book from which you adopted that Farman and who was the audience, was that Gupt jamait because still I heard that Gupti jamait exists in India worshiping Imam as Ram.

[kmaherali]

We call Du'a as Salat and it is a Shariyah practice. Tariqat comes after fulfilling Shariyat. Imam do not say Du'a but he does practice Namaz. Mowla Ali used to say Namaz with his followers may be with low grade audience!!.

In his Farman below the Imam makes the distinction between the Sharia Namaz and Tairqah Dua.

"Throughout the Jamat's history, including during the Fatimid times, a consistent feature of the Ismaili Tariqah has been the complementarity between practices that are specific to our Tariqah, and those that are part of the Sharia, common to all Muslims, albeit with denominational specificities. Examples of this are the historic co-existence between Namaz and Du'a, and the concept of private prayer and personal search, which has an important place in Islam, since it concerns the relationship of faith with life. "(Dec 13, 2008)

Namaz is recited by all Muslims, it is not Tariqah specific. When the Imam performs Namaz, it is like an ordinary Mulslim and not as a Mursheed. The expression changes according to context.

Celebrating birth day is not a RELIGIOUS AFFAIR but an occasion of happiness..

Our faith is of happiness and whatever makes Imam happy is a religious matter. When the Imam makes Farmans he never starts with Bismillah nor reads prepared statements because he is speaking as a Spiritual Father (God) to his murids.

I follow the current Farman. The Farman I quoted is of later date what you quoted for yours. Please mention the name of book from which you adopted that Farman and who was the audience, was that Gupt jamait because still I heard that Gupti jamait exists in India worshiping Imam as Ram.

"I give to you all on this occasion My special loving blessings and I want you to remember the Farmans of My late Grandfather and My own." (Upanga, 7/12/1961)

The essence of Imamat does not change from one Imam to another, the articulation may change. Farmans are made to the murids. Not all Farmans are published but are known widely within the Jamat.

We call the Imam Ali, so why not Ram?

[shivaathervedi]

Why I asked you question beside others, because in couple of your posts you added s.a.a.s after name of Prophet Muhammad and a.s or RA after name of Mowla Ali and a.s after Hazar Imam. When Noor e Muhammadi and Noor e Ali are same then s.a.a.s should come after both pious names.
S.A.A.S abbreviation of salallahu alaihi wasalam.
A.S abbreviation of alahis salam
R.A abbreviation of radhi allahu ta'lla.

I think there are two questions being asked over here. The first one is regarding the Light of Muhammad (s.a.a.s) and the Light of ‘Ali (a.s). And the second one is regarding the abbreviations added after the names.

Regarding the first question, I won’t go into ontological and philosophical depth. Instead, I’ll directly quote hadiths from Rasulullah Muhammad (s.a.a.s) which say that he and ‘Ali possess the same light.

"I and 'Ali are one and the same light.."
(Fayd al-Kashani's Walaya, Reason & Inspiration in Islam, 463)

“’Ali is my own soul (ka-nafsi)”
(Ahmad b. Shu'ayb al-Nasai, Khasa'is Amir al-mu'minin 'Ali ibn Ali Talib (Tehran, 1419/1998), p.104.)

“(O ‘Ali!) You are from me, and I am from you (anta minni wa anaa minka)”
(Nisaburi, al-Mustadrak, p.924, no.4672.)

"’Ali is from me and I am from ‘Ali and he is the guardian of every believer after me"
(Sunan Tirmidhi, volume 2, page 298.)

“..whoever separates himself from you, O 'Ali, separates himself from me.”
(Nisaburi, Mustadrak, p.927, no.4682.)

“Whoever curses 'Ali curses me, and whoever curses me curses God.”
(Nisaburi, Mustadrak, p.925, no.4674)

“'Ali is from me and I am from him ('Ali minni wa wa ana minhu), and nobody can fulfil my duty but myself and 'Ali”
(Nasa'i, Khasa'is, p.106.)

"Ali is from me and I am from Ali and no one represents me except Ali."
(Sunan ibn Majah, Hadith No.119)

And the hadiths are multitudinous in number. It is impossible for me to quote them all.

Regarding the question of abbreviations,
r.a- I don’t use it usually except when I talk to sunnis in their language or that I make quotations from their works which contain this abbreviation.
a.s- It means peace be upon him. It is a form of sending our salwat (blessings).
s.a.a.s- It means peace be upon him and his progeny. It is a salwat (blessings) which can only be used for Rasulullah Muhammad (s.a.a.s) because all the Imams belong to the progeny of Rasulullah Muhammad (s.a.a.s). So the progeny of any Imam is in fact the progeny of Rasulullah Muhammad (s.a.a.s).


Why do we send salwat (blessings) on Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s)?

It is because Allah (swt) has commanded us in the holy Qur’an. He says:
“Indeed, Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation.”
(Surah al-Ahzab [33:56])

When this verse was revealed, the Muslims asked the Prophet : “How should we invoke blessings (on you, O Prophet of Allah)?”

The Prophet said: “Do not invoke ‘incomplete’ blessings on me (i.e. only Allahumma salli ‘ala Muhammad [O Allah! Bless/let Peace be upon, Muhammad] ).”

They again asked: “How should we invoke blessings on you?”

He replied: “Say: Allahumma salli ‘ala Muhammad wa Ali Muhammad.”
“O Allah! Bless/Peace be upon, Muhammad and the progeny of Muhammad”
(Ibn Hajar, As-Sawa‘iq al-Muhriqah, 2nd edition (Cairo: Maktabat al-Qahirah), Book 11, Chapter 1, p. 146)

We should send salwats on Rasulullah Muhammad (s.a.a.s) and the Imams because in this world they have a body like us, they live like us and they face problems like us, in fact they face more problems than us. Having said that, sending salwat on them ultimately benefits us as well.

Allah (swt) says:
“Have you not considered how Allah set forth a parable of a good word (being) like a good tree, whose root is firm and who branches are in heaven, yielding its fruits in every season by the permission of its Lord? And Allah sets forth parables for men that they may be mindful.”
(Surah Ibrahim [14:24-25])

Regarding this verse, Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s) said:
“I am the tree, ‘Ali is the trunk and Fatima is its branch and due to 'Ali and Fatima it (the tree) has the capability of bearing fruits (who are) Hasan and Husain. The believers of Ahl al-Bayt are its leaves..”
(Hayat al-Qulub Vol.3)

Just like watering a tree benefits its leaves, likewise sending salwats on Prophet & the Imams (peace be upon them) benefits the believers. That's why we should always recite salwat whenever we hear/take the name of Prophet Muhammad (s.a.a.s) or the name of any of our Imams (a.s.) and should put relevant abbreviations whenever we write their names.

A personal question if you want to reply. Are you an ex alumnus of IIS?

Nope.

You answered the secondary question and avoided the core question. I have the collection of of Ahadith you quoted. I have plenty of material on Shi'ism. Also this material is available on internet and on this Forum. Please read the Farman of MSMS I quoted and reflect on that. Let me straight forward, Do you believe Hazar Imam is Allah or Noor of Allah?
Mowla Ali said; Speak up your mind so that you should be recognized.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad:
This faith less creature is now demoted from baby naag to volcanic dust.
Copy pasting of the past is indeed a bankrupt mind.
Imam is bearer of noor of ALI.which is above everything else and much much above the time pass brand name of Ali+ lah= Allah.
I have accepted that farman in what imam SMS wanted to deliver and explained to dusts like you.
You now have a chance before Admin kicks you our to upgrade as dust on reptile and further up a spiritual dust.your time starts now 1..2...3

Imam is every thing for me but not Allah. He never claimed publicly or privately. With your wrong doctrine you people are creating religious problems for him.
65% material on this Forum is copy and paste even by stars of this Forum.
You wrote Imam is bearer of Noor of Ali, you are right but Ali is Noor of Allah therefore Imam is Noor of Allah. Don't worry about my dust it worth gold price.

[shivaathervedi]

We call Du'a as Salat and it is a Shariyah practice. Tariqat comes after fulfilling Shariyat. Imam do not say Du'a but he does practice Namaz. Mowla Ali used to say Namaz with his followers may be with low grade audience!!.

In his Farman below the Imam makes the distinction between the Sharia Namaz and Tairqah Dua.

"Throughout the Jamat's history, including during the Fatimid times, a consistent feature of the Ismaili Tariqah has been the complementarity between practices that are specific to our Tariqah, and those that are part of the Sharia, common to all Muslims, albeit with denominational specificities. Examples of this are the historic co-existence between Namaz and Du'a, and the concept of private prayer and personal search, which has an important place in Islam, since it concerns the relationship of faith with life. "(Dec 13, 2008)

Namaz is recited by all Muslims, it is not Tariqah specific. When the Imam performs Namaz, it is like an ordinary Mulslim and not as a Mursheed. The expression changes according to context.

Celebrating birth day is not a RELIGIOUS AFFAIR but an occasion of happiness..

Our faith is of happiness and whatever makes Imam happy is a religious matter. When the Imam makes Farmans he never starts with Bismillah nor reads prepared statements because he is speaking as a Spiritual Father (God) to his murids.

I follow the current Farman. The Farman I quoted is of later date what you quoted for yours. Please mention the name of book from which you adopted that Farman and who was the audience, was that Gupt jamait because still I heard that Gupti jamait exists in India worshiping Imam as Ram.

"I give to you all on this occasion My special loving blessings and I want you to remember the Farmans of My late Grandfather and My own." (Upanga, 7/12/1961)

The essence of Imamat does not change from one Imam to another, the articulation may change. Farmans are made to the murids. Not all Farmans are published but are known widely within the Jamat.

We call the Imam Ali, so why not Ram?

You keep somersaulting. You selected an excerpt of that long Farman of Dec 2008 in which Imam had talked about Namaz also. Imam wants to introduce Namaz, why he wants to introduce Namaz? According to you Namaz is a Shariyah act, in other words he wants to take his followers back to Shariyah, because followers are failed in Tariqat (your version of Tariqat). Does he wants to start refresher Shariyah course for followers by starting Namaz. In Afghanistan and other parts of central Asia, Ismailis there say Namaz beside Du'a ( lately introduced ). When they were saying Namaz, were they not Tariqati in past centuries?
You wrote, " When Imam performs Namaz, it is like as an ordinary Muslim."
Fine, then towards whom is he prostrating. In Namaz is he not saying Bismillah......., Is he prostrating to himself!!
Read the preamble, the most important document for Ismailis to follow, it statrs with Bismilla......On 13th Dec,2016 and before the special prayer starts with Bismilla......
You wrote,"Our faith is of happiness and what ever makes Imam happy is a religious matter." Of course Birth day of Imam is a joys occasion but After Birthday Majlis of Imam followed Dhandia Raas, dinner, dancing is not a Religious matter!!!
I asked you to provide the name of book in which that particular Farman is mentioned, who published it and in what year. HANUZ JAWAB NADARID?
Instead you wrote, all Farmans are not published but are known to jamaits, then why was that noise (including you) that the Farman about ALIYULLAH means 'Ali is from Allah' is fake, though it is a classified Farman. Once you wrote," Present Imam supersedes Farman of his predecessor." These are your golden words," Times changed, Farman changed according to time."

[tret]

We call Du'a as Salat and it is a Shariyah practice. Tariqat comes after fulfilling Shariyat. Imam do not say Du'a but he does practice Namaz. Mowla Ali used to say Namaz with his followers may be with low grade audience!!.

In his Farman below the Imam makes the distinction between the Sharia Namaz and Tairqah Dua.

"Throughout the Jamat's history, including during the Fatimid times, a consistent feature of the Ismaili Tariqah has been the complementarity between practices that are specific to our Tariqah, and those that are part of the Sharia, common to all Muslims, albeit with denominational specificities. Examples of this are the historic co-existence between Namaz and Du'a, and the concept of private prayer and personal search, which has an important place in Islam, since it concerns the relationship of faith with life. "(Dec 13, 2008)

Namaz is recited by all Muslims, it is not Tariqah specific. When the Imam performs Namaz, it is like an ordinary Mulslim and not as a Mursheed. The expression changes according to context.

Celebrating birth day is not a RELIGIOUS AFFAIR but an occasion of happiness..

Our faith is of happiness and whatever makes Imam happy is a religious matter. When the Imam makes Farmans he never starts with Bismillah nor reads prepared statements because he is speaking as a Spiritual Father (God) to his murids.

I follow the current Farman. The Farman I quoted is of later date what you quoted for yours. Please mention the name of book from which you adopted that Farman and who was the audience, was that Gupt jamait because still I heard that Gupti jamait exists in India worshiping Imam as Ram.

"I give to you all on this occasion My special loving blessings and I want you to remember the Farmans of My late Grandfather and My own." (Upanga, 7/12/1961)

The essence of Imamat does not change from one Imam to another, the articulation may change. Farmans are made to the murids. Not all Farmans are published but are known widely within the Jamat.

We call the Imam Ali, so why not Ram?

You keep somersaulting. You selected an excerpt of that long Farman of Dec 2008 in which Imam had talked about Namaz also. Imam wants to introduce Namaz, why he wants to introduce Namaz? According to you Namaz is a Shariyah act, in other words he wants to take his followers back to Shariyah, because followers are failed in Tariqat (your version of Tariqat). Does he wants to start refresher Shariyah course for followers by starting Namaz. In Afghanistan and other parts of central Asia, Ismailis there say Namaz beside Du'a ( lately introduced ). When they were saying Namaz, were they not Tariqati in past centuries?
You wrote, " When Imam performs Namaz, it is like as an ordinary Muslim."
Fine, then towards whom is he prostrating. In Namaz is he not saying Bismillah......., Is he prostrating to himself!!
Read the preamble, the most important document for Ismailis to follow, it statrs with Bismilla......On 13th Dec,2016 and before the special prayer starts with Bismilla......
You wrote,"Our faith is of happiness and what ever makes Imam happy is a religious matter." Of course Birth day of Imam is a joys occasion but After Birthday Majlis of Imam followed Dhandia Raas, dinner, dancing is not a Religious matter!!!
I asked you to provide the name of book in which that particular Farman is mentioned, who published it and in what year. HANUZ JAWAB NADARID?
Instead you wrote, all Farmans are not published but are known to jamaits, then why was that noise (including you) that the Farman about ALIYULLAH means 'Ali is from Allah' is fake, though it is a classified Farman. Once you wrote," Present Imam supersedes Farman of his predecessor." These are your golden words," Times changed, Farman changed according to time."

I think karim is unaware of the Paris conference resolution in 1975 where MHI clarified the notion of God and Imam and how it should be understood.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad. The minutes of the conference come attached with a rider AT VARING LEVELS.not static as it is articulated in print.
Today scientists with all it instrument cannot predict, alavanches,landslide and earth quake few hours or days away.
Is is understood that only GOD orders nature.
Recently MHI said to an journalist Allah/Ali/God has control over ALL THINGS.
Recently just few weeks back MHI is an open speech has most of Muslim will be DEVASTATED by above acts of nature in 20 years time.

[nuseri]

Continued....Either he is making a farce or boasting himself as God.Take it or leave it.I mentioned few ayats during the uttarkand flood in India.how God will PUNISH THE UNBELIEVERS, then ShamsB got little sentiment that I should have written that.I myself thought hell for this region in 50 year time but MHI told openly it would be 20 year.Kuwait just touched 54 degrees thus summer instead of 2025.at 65 degrees ,the population in 50 year at this speed of rise will rkaeted to death. ( no cool breeze of heaven).there are pages n lagrs how Ali+lah= Allah decimated humanity who misread or understood. Prophets of their time.Clock is ticking. this Imam is jamali,if future Imam has jalali persona them payback of Imam Hussain martydom can be 100x more than what MHI said.forget copy pasting, read & analyze the present n future.A person not reading the word VARING LEVEL and ignoring it is an Ignorant.some may be innocent or extra clever in that.

[kmaherali]

You keep somersaulting. You selected an excerpt of that long Farman of Dec 2008 in which Imam had talked about Namaz also. Imam wants to introduce Namaz, why he wants to introduce Namaz? According to you Namaz is a Shariyah act, in other words he wants to take his followers back to Shariyah, because followers are failed in Tariqat (your version of Tariqat). Does he wants to start refresher Shariyah course for followers by starting Namaz. In Afghanistan and other parts of central Asia, Ismailis there say Namaz beside Du'a ( lately introduced ). When they were saying Namaz, were they not Tariqati in past centuries?

As the Imam himself has said, that Namaz and Dua have always existed throughout the history. The essential Tariqah practices have always been emphasized. However in certain historical circumstances such as Afghanistan it becomes necessary to say Namaz as well, not only for religious reasons but for socio-political circumstances. Otherwise their existence could be endangered.

Now since it is necessary in some situations to say Namaz, it is better that we have our won Namaz and not recite Namaz of another Madhhab. Hence we will soon have our own Namaz for those who feel the need to perform it for whatever reasons.

You wrote, " When Imam performs Namaz, it is like as an ordinary Muslim."
Fine, then towards whom is he prostrating. In Namaz is he not saying Bismillah......., Is he prostrating to himself!!."

From an esoteric perspective yes. He would be prostrating to himself although from the zaher he would appear to be prostrating externally to Allah.

Read the preamble, the most important document for Ismailis to follow, it statrs with Bismilla......On 13th Dec,2016 and before the special prayer starts with Bismilla......."

The constitution is the zaheri document which is read by non-Ismailis as well and hence it has to begin with Bismailla... just like the Qur'an. We have been through this before. Go back to the thread on the constitution.

You wrote,"Our faith is of happiness and what ever makes Imam happy is a religious matter." Of course Birth day of Imam is a joys occasion but After Birthday Majlis of Imam followed Dhandia Raas, dinner, dancing is not a Religious matter!!!."

In many Farmans the Imam commands us to celebrate with dandiya raas and dinner - biriyani. And he says that he is also with us when we celebrate. Hence the celebrations are also religious indeed.

I asked you to provide the name of book in which that particular Farman is mentioned, who published it and in what year. HANUZ JAWAB NADARID?
Instead you wrote, all Farmans are not published but are known to jamaits, then why was that noise (including you) that the Farman about ALIYULLAH means 'Ali is from Allah' is fake, though it is a classified Farman. Once you wrote," Present Imam supersedes Farman of his predecessor." These are your golden words," Times changed, Farman changed according to time."

The material conditions change from time to time and hence the material aspects of Imam's guidance must change from one Imam to another. However the fundamental principles of our faith do not change. God does not change himself from being God to being an ordinary human being from one Imam to another.

[kmaherali]

I think karim is unaware of the Paris conference resolution in 1975 where MHI clarified the notion of God and Imam and how it should be understood.

Please elaborate on your statement. Thanks

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad. The minutes of the conference come attached with a rider AT VARING LEVELS.not static as it is articulated in print.
Today scientists with all it instrument cannot predict, alavanches,landslide and earth quake few hours or days away.
Is is understood that only GOD orders nature.
Recently MHI said to an journalist Allah/Ali/God has control over ALL THINGS.
Recently just few weeks back MHI is an open speech has most of Muslim will be DEVASTATED by above acts of nature in 20 years time.

Did Imam said ditto words to journalist as you wrote," Allah/Ali/God has control over all things." Imam used the word God only. Do not misguide.

[shivaathervedi]

You keep somersaulting. You selected an excerpt of that long Farman of Dec 2008 in which Imam had talked about Namaz also. Imam wants to introduce Namaz, why he wants to introduce Namaz? According to you Namaz is a Shariyah act, in other words he wants to take his followers back to Shariyah, because followers are failed in Tariqat (your version of Tariqat). Does he wants to start refresher Shariyah course for followers by starting Namaz. In Afghanistan and other parts of central Asia, Ismailis there say Namaz beside Du'a ( lately introduced ). When they were saying Namaz, were they not Tariqati in past centuries?

As the Imam himself has said, that Namaz and Dua have always existed throughout the history. The essential Tariqah practices have always been emphasized. However in certain historical circumstances such as Afghanistan it becomes necessary to say Namaz as well, not only for religious reasons but for socio-political circumstances. Otherwise their existence could be endangered.

Now since it is necessary in some situations to say Namaz, it is better that we have our won Namaz and not recite Namaz of another Madhhab. Hence we will soon have our own Namaz for those who feel the need to perform it for whatever reasons.

You wrote, " When Imam performs Namaz, it is like as an ordinary Muslim."
Fine, then towards whom is he prostrating. In Namaz is he not saying Bismillah......., Is he prostrating to himself!!."

From an esoteric perspective yes. He would be prostrating to himself although from the zaher he would appear to be prostrating externally to Allah.

Read the preamble, the most important document for Ismailis to follow, it statrs with Bismilla......On 13th Dec,2016 and before the special prayer starts with Bismilla......."

The constitution is the zaheri document which is read by non-Ismailis as well and hence it has to begin with Bismailla... just like the Qur'an. We have been through this before. Go back to the thread on the constitution.

You wrote,"Our faith is of happiness and what ever makes Imam happy is a religious matter." Of course Birth day of Imam is a joys occasion but After Birthday Majlis of Imam followed Dhandia Raas, dinner, dancing is not a Religious matter!!!."

In many Farmans the Imam commands us to celebrate with dandiya raas and dinner - biriyani. And he says that he is also with us when we celebrate. Hence the celebrations are also religious indeed.

I asked you to provide the name of book in which that particular Farman is mentioned, who published it and in what year. HANUZ JAWAB NADARID?
Instead you wrote, all Farmans are not published but are known to jamaits, then why was that noise (including you) that the Farman about ALIYULLAH means 'Ali is from Allah' is fake, though it is a classified Farman. Once you wrote," Present Imam supersedes Farman of his predecessor." These are your golden words," Times changed, Farman changed according to time."

The material conditions change from time to time and hence the material aspects of Imam's guidance must change from one Imam to another. However the fundamental principles of our faith do not change. God does not change himself from being God to being an ordinary human being from one Imam to another.

Mowla Ali practiced Namaz. At time of Imam Ja'far Sadiq there was no Du'a, the kind Pir Sadardin prescribed. In Fatimid period Ismailis said Namaz not Du'a in Masjids. At time of Nasir Khusraw there was no Du'a available, they said Namaz. Still Central Asian Ismailis say Namaz and not out of fear or social political reasons as you mentioned but they have been practicing Namaz past many centuries when no Taliban were around. Imam ordered Namaz almost 10 years back and it was ready within months BUT ITREBS ARE FAILURE TO IMPLEMENT, THEY ARE CONFUSED.

You wrote,"He would be prostrating to himself although from in zahiri he is prostrating to Allah." What a mind blowing philosophy!! I dare not call Imam as hypocrite.

Preamble is meant for Ismailis to follow though non Ismailis can read and understand what Ismailism is and stop calling us kafirs or non Muslims.

You wrote," Material conditions change from time to time........" I shall keep reminding you your words which you are shying to discuss. You wrote," TIMES CHANGED THE FAITH CHANGED." What that mean? The Farmans of MSMS which I quoted, no where he has used the phrase, 'essence is same'. Words speak for themselves. Imam's words are clear so that a follower with lower IQ can understand.

[kmaherali]

Mowla Ali practiced Namaz. At time of Imam Ja'far Sadiq there was no Du'a, the kind Pir Sadardin prescribed. In Fatimid period Ismailis said Namaz not Du'a in Masjids. At time of Nasir Khusraw there was no Du'a available, they said Namaz. Still Central Asian Ismailis say Namaz and not out of fear or social political reasons as you mentioned but they have been practicing Namaz past many centuries when no Taliban were around. Imam ordered Namaz almost 10 years back and it was ready within months BUT ITREBS ARE FAILURE TO IMPLEMENT, THEY ARE CONFUSED..

We cannot be sure about what practices took place more than thousand years ago but MHI has said "Throughout the Jamat's history, including during the Fatimid times, a consistent feature of the Ismaili Tariqah has been the complementarity between practices that are specific to our Tariqah." So the Sharia and Tariqah practices have always existed. Some may have been documented, others may not we cannot tell. Which Namaz do the Central Asian Jamats practice? Has it been prescribed?

You wrote,"He would be prostrating to himself although from in zahiri he is prostrating to Allah." What a mind blowing philosophy!! I dare not call Imam as hypocrite..

It is not a matter of hypocracy, it is a matter of expressing himself according to context and audience. You have been told several times about this. MSMS sent a Talika when the Memoirs was published, that he had two audiences in front of him. You have also been made aware of Imam Baqir's hadith:

Zararah narrates that I asked a certain question to Imam al-Baqar (a.s.). He gave me its answer. Another person then asked the same question and the Imam gave him a different answer. Later a third person asked the same question, but the Imam's answer this time was different from the previous two answers. I then asked him: "O, the son of the Messenger (s.a.a.s)! The two persons who just came here to ask you questions were from Iraq and were Shias, yet you gave them contradictory answers". The Imam then answered: "O Zararah! This is good for me as well as for you and this will help us survive and prosper".
(Usool Al Kafi, p.37)

You wrote," Material conditions change from time to time........" I shall keep reminding you your words which you are shying to discuss. You wrote," TIMES CHANGED THE FAITH CHANGED." What that mean? The Farmans of MSMS which I quoted, no where he has used the phrase, 'essence is same'. Words speak for themselves. Imam's words are clear so that a follower with lower IQ can understand.

The essence remains the same but expression changes. Here are two Farmans.

I began My Farman by saying that in the past twenty five years, much has changed, but much has remained the same. What has remained the same is our understanding of Islam. What has remained is the practice of our Tariqah, what has remained is abiding by our traditions and I want to underline the importance of this to you today on this occasion, because there are parts of the world with people believing in other faiths who find it difficult to reconcile the interpretation of their faith and the modern world.`(Nairobi, Tuesday, October 5, 1982)

I want to make it clear today to My Jamat that so long as it is well understood that the Imam of the Time takes those decisions that are essential to the practice of the Tariqah, there will not be any change in the essence of our practice. There may be change in certain forms that is normal in any Tariqah taking into account the life that we lead. But let it be quite clear that it is the Imam of the Time and only the Imam of the Time who has the authority to give directions in the Tariqah matters.(Thursday, October 6,1988)

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
Religion and its ritual evolves with time but essence of faith remains constant.that's why with each prophet bought about new practices.and give new name of God.
It means name of god also changes/evolves 349 before the penultimate name of Allah is aslo just a final brand name.if it was a true name WHY DID IT NOT CAME WITH FIRST PROPHET but with the last one.( think it over,) it mean they were name changing practice but not entity but progressive names of a single entity ALI.
I wish to know
1.what doe' tawhid therein' mean with the part of kalima in the Constitution
2.what does 'varing levels' mean in minutes of the Conference.
3.what does it means when MHI say ' Clash of Ignorants'to a highly educated audience. After that I will seek answer from few selective ayats.I request our wise member refrain from answering the above questions

[shivaathervedi]

Mowla Ali practiced Namaz. At time of Imam Ja'far Sadiq there was no Du'a, the kind Pir Sadardin prescribed. In Fatimid period Ismailis said Namaz not Du'a in Masjids. At time of Nasir Khusraw there was no Du'a available, they said Namaz. Still Central Asian Ismailis say Namaz and not out of fear or social political reasons as you mentioned but they have been practicing Namaz past many centuries when no Taliban were around. Imam ordered Namaz almost 10 years back and it was ready within months BUT ITREBS ARE FAILURE TO IMPLEMENT, THEY ARE CONFUSED..

We cannot be sure about what practices took place more than thousand years ago but MHI has said "Throughout the Jamat's history, including during the Fatimid times, a consistent feature of the Ismaili Tariqah has been the complementarity between practices that are specific to our Tariqah." So the Sharia and Tariqah practices have always existed. Some may have been documented, others may not we cannot tell. Which Namaz do the Central Asian Jamats practice? Has it been prescribed?

You wrote,"He would be prostrating to himself although from in zahiri he is prostrating to Allah." What a mind blowing philosophy!! I dare not call Imam as hypocrite..

It is not a matter of hypocracy, it is a matter of expressing himself according to context and audience. You have been told several times about this. MSMS sent a Talika when the Memoirs was published, that he had two audiences in front of him. You have also been made aware of Imam Baqir's hadith:

Zararah narrates that I asked a certain question to Imam al-Baqar (a.s.). He gave me its answer. Another person then asked the same question and the Imam gave him a different answer. Later a third person asked the same question, but the Imam's answer this time was different from the previous two answers. I then asked him: "O, the son of the Messenger (s.a.a.s)! The two persons who just came here to ask you questions were from Iraq and were Shias, yet you gave them contradictory answers". The Imam then answered: "O Zararah! This is good for me as well as for you and this will help us survive and prosper".
(Usool Al Kafi, p.37)

You wrote," Material conditions change from time to time........" I shall keep reminding you your words which you are shying to discuss. You wrote," TIMES CHANGED THE FAITH CHANGED." What that mean? The Farmans of MSMS which I quoted, no where he has used the phrase, 'essence is same'. Words speak for themselves. Imam's words are clear so that a follower with lower IQ can understand.

The essence remains the same but expression changes. Here are two Farmans.

I began My Farman by saying that in the past twenty five years, much has changed, but much has remained the same. What has remained the same is our understanding of Islam. What has remained is the practice of our Tariqah, what has remained is abiding by our traditions and I want to underline the importance of this to you today on this occasion, because there are parts of the world with people believing in other faiths who find it difficult to reconcile the interpretation of their faith and the modern world.`(Nairobi, Tuesday, October 5, 1982)

I want to make it clear today to My Jamat that so long as it is well understood that the Imam of the Time takes those decisions that are essential to the practice of the Tariqah, there will not be any change in the essence of our practice. There may be change in certain forms that is normal in any Tariqah taking into account the life that we lead. But let it be quite clear that it is the Imam of the Time and only the Imam of the Time who has the authority to give directions in the Tariqah matters.(Thursday, October 6,1988)

You wrote," We can not be sure about what practices took place more than thousand years ago..." I think you are well aware of the practice of Namaz in time of Mowla Ali, Imam Ja'far Sadiq, and Fatimid Period. In 70's Fatimid Eid Namaz and Janaza Namaz were introduced dubbed as Fatimi Tariqa, booklets were printed and jamaits were told how to practice. Before that Sunni Hanifi Tariqa was in practice with permission of MSMS. ( Though African, USA, and Canada jamaits are not following the practice which was introduced in 70's by Imam so far). Salat/Du'a/Namaz ( what ever you call it ) started with name of Allah in Fatimid times and today our Du'a also starts with name of Allah and finish with name of Allah.

I know about Talika of MSMS in which Imam mentioned of two audiences BUT the Farmans I quoted by MSMS were in front of his followers, the audience was his followers and Farmans are to understand and follow.

About quote of Zararah, please read my remarks on your quote on page 7 of this thread.

Correct, only Imam of the time has authority to give directions on our Tariqa then as a true follower of Imam follow his Farmans including ' Ali is from Allah', also quoted in Du'a meaning and taught in Religious Centers to youth on direction of Imam.

[kmaherali]

You wrote," We can not be sure about what practices took place more than thousand years ago..." I think you are well aware of the practice of Namaz in time of Mowla Ali, Imam Ja'far Sadiq, and Fatimid Period. In 70's Fatimid Eid Namaz and Janaza Namaz were introduced dubbed as Fatimi Tariqa, booklets were printed and jamaits were told how to practice. Before that Sunni Hanifi Tariqa was in practice with permission of MSMS. ( Though African, USA, and Canada jamaits are not following the practice which was introduced in 70's by Imam so far). Salat/Du'a/Namaz ( what ever you call it ) started with name of Allah in Fatimid times and today our Du'a also starts with name of Allah and finish with name of Allah..

Sure practices during the peak periods of our history are recorded, but there are obscure periods as well and we can't be sure of all. However MHI has stated in his Farman that throughout the history there was complimentarity between Tariqah and Sharia practices. Dua is the basis of our beliefs which we articulate to others. The Old Dua was part of the evidence in the Haji Bibi case. So it has to comply with the norms of a Muslim prayer - start and end with Allah. Although inside we say "Ya Hazar Imam anta quwwati"

I know about Talika of MSMS in which Imam mentioned of two audiences BUT the Farmans I quoted by MSMS were in front of his followers, the audience was his followers and Farmans are to understand and follow..

Sure MSMS's audience was his murids, but the audience of the incident of Hazarat Ali saying Namaz was not necessarily murids only. He said Namaz in public.

About quote of Zararah, please read my remarks on your quote on page 7 of this thread..

In an esoteric tradition we can only prosper when we deal with audiences according to their capacity, otherwise there will be confusion and misunderstanding. That is the meaning of security.

Correct, only Imam of the time has authority to give directions on our Tariqa then as a true follower of Imam follow his Farmans including ' Ali is from Allah', also quoted in Du'a meaning and taught in Religious Centers to youth on direction of Imam.

As I said Dua is an external document and hence it has to be made comprehensible to non-Ismailis who don't understand Ali as Allah. However for murids we still recite Ya Hazar Imam in our tasbis and other Tariqah practices.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali Madad.
Religion and its ritual evolves with time but essence of faith remains constant.that's why with each prophet bought about new practices.and give new name of God.
It means name of god also changes/evolves 349 before the penultimate name of Allah is aslo just a final brand name.if it was a true name WHY DID IT NOT CAME WITH FIRST PROPHET but with the last one.( think it over,) it mean they were name changing practice but not entity but progressive names of a single entity ALI.
I wish to know
1.what doe' tawhid therein' mean with the part of kalima in the Constitution
2.what does 'varing levels' mean in minutes of the Conference.
3.what does it means when MHI say ' Clash of Ignorants'to a highly educated audience. After that I will seek answer from few selective ayats.I request our wise member refrain from answering the above questions

Frozen brain creature, in your above post you asked questions and then left a note in the end " refrain from answering the above questions." If you do not want answer, why you asked questions in first place, are you PK writing. In your post in the thread ' other diamond jubilee activities' you have written 'INSHALLAH' and then a phrase ' NOOR E ALI HAI NAAM ALLAH". Finally TRUTH came out from you. ALLAH ALLAH KAR BHAIYA.

[zznoor]

Sure MSMS's audience was his murids, but the audience of the incident of Hazarat Ali saying Namaz was not necessarily murids only. He said Namaz in public.

KBhai
During Hz Ali's time there was no piri muridi. It developed few centuries later. Hz Ali led Namaz for whoever came to Masjid for Namaz. Jamat included his Shia (supporters) and non Shia. Everybody were just plain Muslims.

As I said Dua is an external document and hence it has to be made comprehensible to non-Ismailis who don't understand Ali as Allah.

I can guarantee you that Muslims will never accept Ali as Allah. They do not need external document to comprehend this concept.

[zznoor]

So it has to comply with the norms of a Muslim prayer - start and end with Allah. Although inside we say "Ya Hazar Imam anta quwwati"

Form of Muslim Salat/Namaz is Adhan Wadhu/Gusal niyat prayer standing Ruku sajud sitting salaam etc. it is lot different then Ismail Dua.

[shivaathervedi]

You wrote," We can not be sure about what practices took place more than thousand years ago..." I think you are well aware of the practice of Namaz in time of Mowla Ali, Imam Ja'far Sadiq, and Fatimid Period. In 70's Fatimid Eid Namaz and Janaza Namaz were introduced dubbed as Fatimi Tariqa, booklets were printed and jamaits were told how to practice. Before that Sunni Hanifi Tariqa was in practice with permission of MSMS. ( Though African, USA, and Canada jamaits are not following the practice which was introduced in 70's by Imam so far). Salat/Du'a/Namaz ( what ever you call it ) started with name of Allah in Fatimid times and today our Du'a also starts with name of Allah and finish with name of Allah..

Sure practices during the peak periods of our history are recorded, but there are obscure periods as well and we can't be sure of all. However MHI has stated in his Farman that throughout the history there was complimentarity between Tariqah and Sharia practices. Dua is the basis of our beliefs which we articulate to others. The Old Dua was part of the evidence in the Haji Bibi case. So it has to comply with the norms of a Muslim prayer - start and end with Allah. Although inside we say "Ya Hazar Imam anta quwwati"

I know about Talika of MSMS in which Imam mentioned of two audiences BUT the Farmans I quoted by MSMS were in front of his followers, the audience was his followers and Farmans are to understand and follow..

Sure MSMS's audience was his murids, but the audience of the incident of Hazarat Ali saying Namaz was not necessarily murids only. He said Namaz in public.

About quote of Zararah, please read my remarks on your quote on page 7 of this thread..

In an esoteric tradition we can only prosper when we deal with audiences according to their capacity, otherwise there will be confusion and misunderstanding. That is the meaning of security.

Correct, only Imam of the time has authority to give directions on our Tariqa then as a true follower of Imam follow his Farmans including ' Ali is from Allah', also quoted in Du'a meaning and taught in Religious Centers to youth on direction of Imam.

As I said Dua is an external document and hence it has to be made comprehensible to non-Ismailis who don't understand Ali as Allah. However for murids we still recite Ya Hazar Imam in our tasbis and other Tariqah practices.

You wrote," ...but there are obscure periods as well and we can't be sure of all." In DAUR SATR did our Imams and followers stopped saying salat? Of course not, they followed the existing practice of salat practiced by Mowla Ali and Imam Ja'far Sadiq.
You wrote," Du'a is basis of our beliefs which we articulate to others." Why we suppose to articulate? Do they force us to do so or, Do we allow non Ismailis to present when we recite our Du'a so that they be satisfied.
When we say," YA IMAM I ZAMAAN ANTA QUWWATI............ THEN AT END WE RECITE, ANTAL IMAMUL HAQQUL MUBEEN, AND THEN ALLAHUMA LAKA SUJUDI WA TA'ATI ( you know the meaning ). We prostrate to Allah.

You wrote," Sure MSMS's audience was his follower...." The question is about that important Farman of MSMS in front his followers and that is different than his previous Farmans of Ali Allah.

On quote of Zararah, do Imam needs security, is he in danger, does he needs protection, does he needs body guards? If he needs protection then how come he will protect his herds.

You wrote," We still recite ya Hazar Imam in Tasbih....". This is contrary to our Du'a. In Du'a we pray to Allah and prostrate to Allah that what the meaning of Du'a says. Imam has emphasized his mureeds to learn meaning of Du'a.

[nuseri]

To:zznoor:.YA Ali Madad.
Do not take guarantee for all Muslims as tough you are sure they will stay & act blind till eternity.
New Acts/rituals of prayer starts with each new coming prophet & brand name of God and ends with new entity brings in new set of order and a brand name.
Unfortunately those locked into each entity physical appearance and behaviour are mostly doomed.the smarts from these nearly 40% have have become atheist or non religious. In 83 years from now would there be so-called muslims then?this rate is growing at full 1% (100 bps) every year.you have fallen down to arotten sink ,get out of it ASAP.

[kmaherali]

Form of Muslim Salat/Namaz is Adhan Wadhu/Gusal niyat prayer standing Ruku sajud sitting salaam etc. it is lot different then Ismail Dua.

Dua is a Tariqah practice and Namaz is a Sharia practice. Soon we will have Ismaili Namaz which will be similar to the Namaz of other denominations. Our Idd Namaz is similar to the Namaz of other denominations.

[kmaherali]

You wrote," ...but there are obscure periods as well and we can't be sure of all." In DAUR SATR did our Imams and followers stopped saying salat? Of course not, they followed the existing practice of salat practiced by Mowla Ali and Imam Ja'far Sadiq..

I meant that we cannot be sure of what practices took place but I have accepted the word of MHI that both the Sharia and Tariqah practices have always existed together. Salat and Dua have always existed as per Imam.

You wrote," Du'a is basis of our beliefs which we articulate to others." Why we suppose to articulate? Do they force us to do so or, Do we allow non Ismailis to present when we recite our Du'a so that they be satisfied.

Dua provides the basis for others to understand our doctrines and beliefs. I gave you an example that during the Haji Bibi case, our Dua was presented as evidence of our beliefs. Hence it has to be in a language that is acceptable by other Tariqahs. The inclusion of the Panj tan paak was for the purpose of maintaining harmony with other Shia communities.

When we say," YA IMAM I ZAMAAN ANTA QUWWATI............ THEN AT END WE RECITE, ANTAL IMAMUL HAQQUL MUBEEN, AND THEN ALLAHUMA LAKA SUJUDI WA TA'ATI ( you know the meaning ). We prostrate to Allah.
.

Exactly the reflection of my point. The original Dua did not state protration to Allah but upon the name of the Imam. It was modified due to the sensitivities of the sister communities.

You wrote," Sure MSMS's audience was his follower...." The question is about that important Farman of MSMS in front his followers and that is different than his previous Farmans of Ali Allah..

There is no difference at all. As I said before he referred to an example from history wherein Hazarat Ali said Namaz in public. The audience of Hazarat Ali was general Umma.

On quote of Zararah, do Imam needs security, is he in danger, does he needs protection, does he needs body guards? If he needs protection then how come he will protect his herds..

It is not a question of any threat. It is simply the nature of an esoteric tradition - that you don't reveal matters to those who are not qualified to recieve it. This applies to any esoteric sect. It is not just restricted to our Tariqah.

You wrote," We still recite ya Hazar Imam in Tasbih....". This is contrary to our Du'a. In Du'a we pray to Allah and prostrate to Allah that what the meaning of Du'a says. Imam has emphasized his mureeds to learn meaning of Du'a.

Dua has multiple levels of meaning. You just don't stick to the basic level.

[nuseri]

To kmaherali:Ya Ali Madad.
You posted
Dua is a Tariqah practice and Namaz is a Sharia practice. Soon we will have Ismaili Namaz which will be similar to the Namaz of other denominations.
I do NOT agree on it AT ALL ,soon we could have Ismaili namaz.Can you justify in points your observation and statement ???
I have requested for your qualitative input in an other post,please oblige..Please do not yourself become a part of Ignorance by replying to all & sundry junk posts of non Ismailis