Is Imam Allah? ([b]By Ali Raza shallwani[/b])

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:52 am

I am a student of 10th class @ relegious center & till now i i am not yet confirmed that is Imam Allah its a big confusion because its the matter of faith & i have asked this Q from my teachers but they are also not confident of giving this answer i understand that the noor(the light) in the imam is of Allah but i am not confirmed because my teacher says that when imam is present in dedar we can see noor but still there is a big Q that only till the till the temperory time of dedar there is only noor in Imam
these type of Q are not only in my mind but in the minds of my all ismaili friendz all around the world so if any one could reply any clear and confirmed with confident answer then please post our answer..

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 8:09 pm

Anonymous wrote:I am a student of 10th class @ relegious center & till now i i am not yet confirmed that is Imam Allah its a big confusion because its the matter of faith & i have asked this Q from my teachers but they are also not confident of giving this answer i understand that the noor(the light) in the imam is of Allah but i am not confirmed because my teacher says that when imam is present in dedar we can see noor but still there is a big Q that only till the till the temperory time of dedar there is only noor in Imam
these type of Q are not only in my mind but in the minds of my all ismaili friendz all around the world so if any one could reply any clear and confirmed with confident answer then please post our answer..

Dear Guest,

I am also student to Class 10 and we also ask many questions and everyone is happy.

You ask: Is Imam = Allah?

How can Imam be Allah when He (Allah) Himself says in Holy Quran that 'No vision can GRASP Him. And, He is above comprehension'.

The Imam is Sign of Allah; a sign that He (Allah) exists; Imam is His (Allah's) self-Disclosure - an epiphany or mazar.

THe Holy Ginan explains God in SEEHARFEE (30 LETTERS) as:
Gujrati
English:

"alakh apaar so agam agochar
soee allaah aapoee bhitar.."

"He is indescribable and beyond limits and without comprehension and is invisible. God is in truth within your bodies (hearts)."

To quote from: BUJ NIRA(N)JAN
Gujrati
English

"re tu(n)hee ....
naa tin naam ne tthaam hae
naa bin naam ne tthaam re
jahaa(n) so naam bakhaaneeye(jo lo naam na kahiye)
sab vaa(n)ke hae naam re............................."

" O you, ...
He has no name nor any abode, yet he is not without a name nor an
abode. When you attain the indescribable (nameless) state in
meditation, all his names are encompassed there."

Variant:
"He has neither a name nor an abode, yet without His name there can
be no abode. He has no name yet He encompasses all names (God, Allah, Ishwar, Prabhu, ...)"

The Jews also hold to the belief: "the Divine cannot be lettered"

So, I hope everything is clear now.

The confusion is on - How Islam perceive & worship The Haq or Truth or Reality or Allah!

While the majoritarian followers of Islam believe:
1) God does NOT exist every-where (Immanent) but exists as a 60 cubit (90 feet) deity (Transcendent ) - who occupies a throne in the 7th heaven and Adam was made in His image of 90 feet??

and,

2) God exists without Space.
This #2 Contradicts #1 and vice-versa.

These two beliefs alone constitutes SHIRK but most muslims - ALL AROUND THE WORLD are unaware of what they follow or are too afraid to ask question because they are not encouraged to question as ismailis are. Shukar Mowla!

3) MOST of them and every sunni friend I talk to thinks - Allah is the only word for God; all other NAMES have been abrogated??????

While , we seek His signs according to:

4) Holy Qur'an and verses - for example: [57:3] and [36:12] and [24:35]:

'God is the First, the Last, the Manifest (Zahir) and the Hidden (Batin)'

and,

'We have vested EVERYTHING in the manifest Imam'

And,

'Allah is the Light/Nur of the Heavens & the Earth'

The idea that God is MANIFEST and VESTED with everything and Light or Nur is Qur'anic.

Are beliefs listed in #1, #2 and #3 Quranic? What do you think?

One must understand the meaning of a manifestation; again, the word here to be understood is Mazhar which can translate as "epiphany, theophany, manifestation, or the one that I like - God's self-disclosure."

The Imam 's Light or God's self-disclosure is the sole proof that Allah exists and the Imam's Light/Noor is the GUIDE that will lead the mumin to that Higher Light (Allah) in marifat or gnostic union.

(noor/light). An analogy. Allah is the Sun and Imamat's noor is the light of
the sun. The sun can only be understood (or seen) from its light. Its
the same with the imamat's noor.

The Holy Ginan explains in Momeen Chetamani :
Gujrati
English:

"Eji Noor thi Nooraj pragatiya, Teno vas che Nooraj mahain, Tene aa Satpa(n)th peda kidha, Khoji kadiyo Kuran mahain."

"The Noor in the Imam of the Time is the same that was the cause
of creation and really is from the very Noor you have been given the
Satpanth(True Path), nay, even the Quran originated from that Noor."

So- when we invoke Mowla Hazar Imam(the bearer of this Noor), we invoke the Noor of Allah and Allah is Noor/Light .

ALTERNATIVELY - When we invoke Allah, we invoke the Noor.

There is no DIFFERENCE; One needs to be clear on this.

The Noor is seamless and there is NO intermediary.

Nothing exists but Noor or Allah.

Whatever is, is YA ALY.... Imam Aga Aly Shah (sa)

There is no Duality here.
There is no 'taking of Partners' or 'intermediaries'
or 'giving birth' or 'transforming Allah' into a 60 cubit (90 feet) Deity

that sits on a throne in the 7th heaven ( Sahih Bukhari).

It is the most natural understanding of God!

The Holy Quran says:
[57:4] He is with you whereso-ever you may be

Again, the Holy Ginan: SEEHARFEE (30 LETTERS) explains:
Gujrati
English:

"satgur saahebkaa sharannaa leeje
oham aapsaku(n) saabat keeje........................"

"Seek the protection of the True Guide (The Imaam of the time) and regard with conviction that Mowla Ali[Noor] is always with you. "

Pls feel free to add or correct or critique. And, specially CLEAR up #1 , 2, & #3 for ALL MUSLIMS AROUND THE WORLD.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sun Aug 17, 2003 9:08 pm

YOU SAID THAT IMAM IS NOT ALLAH BUT MAZHAR OF ALLAH.MAZHAR MEANS AVTAR WHICH MEANS THAT BODY IS OF HUMAN BUT INSIDE BODY IS NOOR.
NOOR MEANS ALLAH.
IF YOU WANT TO GIVE SOMEONE A GLASS FULL OF MILK THAN YOU WILL SAY TAKE MILK YOU WILL NOT SAY TAKE GLASS.WHY BECAUSE MILK WAS INSIDE THE GLASS THATS WHY YOU WILL SAY TAKE MILK.WHATS INSIDE THE BODY OF IMAM?NOOR OF ALLAH THAN WHY WE SAY HIM HUMAN.DO WE PRAY FROM A HUMAN?IT IS MENTION IN QURAN,HADITH,GINANS,FARMANS AND THERE ARE ALSO SO MANY MIRACLES.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:04 am

Allah is Unknowabe, beyond all Attributes. Allah is the Hidden Unmanifest Absolute. The Nur of Allah is not the same as Allah. Rather, the only thing to issue out of Allah was His Thought - His Will - His Nur. The Primordial Will of Allah is also called the Universal Intellect - Aql. Every Divine Attribute should actually be applied to the Aql; because Allah is beyond all things. From the Universal Aql, there emanated a second Being - the Universal Soul - the Nafs. The Aql and Nafs were responsible for the Creation of the Universe and its Sustenance. They are the Two Primordial Archangels. The Aql is like the Pen, Throne, and symbolizes the father. The Nafs is like the Tablet, Pedestal, and mother. The Aql is like the Sun; the Nafs like the Moon.

The Imam of the Time is the Mazhar - Epiphany - Theophany - or earthly Appearance of the Universal Aql.
The Prophet or Pir of the Time is the Mazhar of the Universal Nafs.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Mon Aug 18, 2003 9:53 pm

You are wrong because according to Quran Allah is Noor.
Allah is zahir as well as batin.Yes we know that He is always with us n batin but where is He in Zahir?
Hazrat Ali said that Mai bolta Quran Hu.
Quran is word of God.How can word of God is equal to man.
Hazrat Mohammad [pbuh] said that Face of Ali is like that of God.
In Quran Allah said that no one is like Him so Hazrat Ali is manifestaton of God.

am · Post by am » Sun Sep 21, 2003 9:50 pm

Hazar Imam is the bearer of the Noor of Allah, and hence should be considered as the Mazar of Allah, or the representative of Allah, or in more simple terms Allah in physical form.

When you pour milk ( or for that matter water or any liquid ) into a glass and offer it to somebody to drink it, then while offering that glass of milk to that person, you say " Here is your milk".

In the same way, the hazar Imam is the bearer of the Noor of Allah, and hence is no odinary individual, but infact the representative of Allah on the physical plain.

Allah in his true essence is beyond the grasp or understanding of the Human intellect as Allah is above creation, and to put it simply, the human intellect is too small to understand Allah, as it belongs to the created world. Also, this physical universe and all physical creatins are too fragile to behold the appearance of Allah in his essence and would perish instantaneously.

Therefore, if Allah wants to reveal himself, he will do so in the form of a human being ( as opposed to revealing himself in the form of stones, plants or other lower forms of animal), as human beings are the bearers of the rational/thinking soul and are the best and the highest or the noblest of Allah's creations.

Please use your good judgement in explaining the above to a non-ismaili, as they may not be in a position to fully understand the gist of it.

Regards.

shirazkali · Post by **shirazkali** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 12:13 pm

" imam is allah".period in ginan we recite that "haq tun pakk tun....." people say that imam is the noor of allah, but allah is by itself noor, thats what you mean  imam is noor of noor. i heard in one of the waiz that "  in one MHI mulaqat, one of the student asked to imam that are you the god" imam replied that " however you want me to consider " it is easy to say allah but it is hard to understand the allah. allah is beyond our imaginations. it is not OK to say ali is allah in front of other muslims, because they can't understand our faith, and our ginans, as they couldn't understand "mansoor al hallajj" in ginans pir says ali is allah. i suggest you read "budh avtaar" from the ginan section, it will clear many of your complications. imam Sultan mohammad shah in his "kalam e mubeen" also discussed the the imam ali and nusari incidence, where molla ali killed nusairi three times and give life three times. nusari claimed that only god can give life and death.(if you don't know the event, let me know) the event of "fort of khaiber"is the symbol of imam bravery and spritual power, in which imam ali remove its huge gate with his one finger(very broad in lenght and height) , made of pure iron, thousands of people couldn't move it. only hazrat ali, who was very short in height and sick that day did it. hazrat ali threw its one part of gate that far that no human being ever found it. one more evidence is that during one the battle (badar or ohad), in which muslims lost the winning battle because one part of group disobeyed hazrat mahammads order to stay one their positions. when enemy lost and their leader saw that muslims are busy in collecting war goods, he came back and attacked muslims. there was so much dust that some muslims killed muslims. in that incidence one enemy came to kill hazrat mohammad(pbuh), he asked for ali's help by saying " ya ali adrikani". now here is the point why did hazrat mahammad called hazrat ali. he was the prophet of the god, why didn't hazrat mohammad call allah for help?why did he call ali, because ali is allah.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Tue Dec 09, 2003 10:01 pm

Mowla Ali killed Nusayri 70 times according to Farman and Noorum Mubin.

shirazkali · Post by **shirazkali** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 12:50 pm

[list]i am wrong. you are right. i agree with you. hay star, what is your e-mail and your name. you and few other member seem to me have a great knowledge about our religion. i would be happy to see some views on "daind kalinga" i know many things but i am not sure when is it gonna happen. there are few hints in the ginan but i want it to know more about it. annant akhodo and few other ginans gives the results of the event. start as a new topic.[/list]

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:26 pm

My name is Munir and I will soon write about Diat Kalinga and I will start it as a new topic.Thanks

777 · Post by **777** » Sat Dec 13, 2003 1:51 pm

Ya ali madad everyone. Dear guest, I can understand your confusion, your teacher don't give you the answer because they want you to find it through Farmans and Ginans. And you should only seek it through farmans and ginans, don't ask this question to everyone, because Allah has different spiritual relations with every individual. Some are Shariatis other Tariqatis, Haqiqatis or Marifatis. But if you don't want to search a lot and want to ask someone then ask only a messionary.

According to my personnel believe, not only I believe but I am persuaded that Ali is Allah and that our living imam is the same Ali then our first imam.

Sultan Muhammad shah has said in his Farman:
" The soul of the courageous merges quickly into the sea. (assal makan)
Your soul is like a river. I am a sea.
Your soul’s final destination is in the sea, that is, in Myself. At last, you will merge into the sea."

YAM

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Sun Dec 14, 2003 10:53 pm

Shiraz Kali
I am not starting new topic of Daet Kalingo as I have not much knowledge about it.
The word Daet or Asoor means demon for example ravvan, kans

Kalingo means black

In Holy Gita Krishna says that For the protection of faithful, for the destruction of wicked, for the sake of firmly establishment of religion I am born age on age.

In four jugs i.e karta jug [gold age] Treta jug [silver age] Duapar jug [copper age] the avtaar of that time killed the demon and in this present kaljug [ started from 4 feb 3102 BC Dust age] the Nakalanki avtar will kill demon daint kalingo.

In Budhavtaar it is
467. From China will come the Kalingo
He will come to fight in Jampudip

468. The Kalingo will have 4 million followers
They will make a lot of trouble

469. By concentration, he will go to the skies
He will feed iron horses with sugar

470. He will show the deceased mothers and fathers
He will reverse the current of the river

471. He will make mountains of food move forward
He will change water into butter

472. The Kalingo will accomplish such miracles
And there, the whole world will be lost

473. Only My followers will not be lost
Those who will have recognized the Master of Truth.

In past Abu Ali missionary said waez on topic of Daet Kalingo. If you want more and detail information about time period etc try to get cassette of that waez.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 2:04 am

More about Daet Kalingo
According to Abu Ali missionary Daet will become powerful due to science and will perform miracles.There would be 76 lakh people in his army.In future china will become center of science and education.Ever country will fear from china including U.S.A. China will progress and and will become much advanced. Daet will be the ruler of china. He will make ghee from water or he will make artificial ghee.He will make brown sugar from mud and will make a paper which can speak like a parrot.There will be war betwenn daet and ImamThere will be lot of noise and announcement and declaration of war will be made in three worlds [sky,earth,pataal]
At that time all muslims will believe Imam as their Imam and khalifa.There would be darkness in world. Very few people will be momins other will be kafirs.Before this great war there will bne many other wars in this world.
According to Abu Ali missionary he think that in future muslims and communist will be united and they togethrt will fight against christians and jewsIn starting chistians and jews will win but later they will be defeated.
Than there will be only 2 powers in this world Islam and communism.
Than Imam will become leader of all muslims. It is in ginans that there will be pawan rath ghoray i.e aeroplane and Imam will have 36 kinds of weapons.
Angels and spirits will praise Imam. They will also fight battle.Detail is in Annant Akhado about this.In battle of Badar also there were 313 momins but God sent 3000 angels to help muslims.The momins who are not ismailis saint and good people of other religion like hinduism,christanity will realize that Imam is naklank avtaar and there would be raaj of momins.This would be like world war.Its in ginan that Imam will walk for 6 lakh miles in one day.Daet will make arguments to his wife Surja Rani. Abu Ali said that Surja rani in ginan means true momins he will say 75% of world is in my control.Momins will say if you want salvation you have to worship lord and you are doing war with lord?Daet will say I can bring back life to one who is dead I have unlimmited army.Rani will say although you have unlimmited army but you will be defeated.

star_munir · Post by **star_munir** » Wed Jan 07, 2004 8:01 pm

continue.....
Most of the people in daet's army will die due to natural disasters like flood,earthquake,storm etc.
In 1921 president of Russia said in his speech that within 20 years there will be no religion in Russia such a plan was made by him but inspite of his best efforts he was not succesful in doing so.In 1969 a report was published about religion in Russia and there were many muslims,christians etc.There are many ismailis in Russia.In that report in chapter of Islam,ismailism is also mention and about Aga Khan, dasond etc is written in this report. China will not make a make mistake like that of Russia. Daet will ask Surja Rani you live in my home,eat my food and than praises your Imam.It means he will ask momins that you live in communist country in my country and are following religion.
Rani will reply listen I am telling you this in every joog but you have always cheated. After Karta,Treta and Duapar jug this is last Kaljug in this infidels and enemy of religion will be killed.
Daet will than say Rani what are you saying you live in my home and praises your Imam why??
Rani will say Believe me Lord will ask for your every action.
Than there will be war.Ishwar and Bramha [Shah Pir ,Imam and Pir of that time] will come in China and Imam will win the battle and than there will be Ratan jug and momins will be happy and will enjoy.

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Fri Jan 09, 2004 3:42 am

YA ALY MADAD 10TH CLASS STUDENT.

YOUR QUESTION WAS IS IMAM ALLAH?

Lets examine the question in different ways to arrive at a rational conclusion with the grace of Allah.

let us look at this question ---> Is there any place or name or thing where Allah isn't?

now go to the mirror and calmly observe what u see.

Is what u see "you" or is it a reflection of a representation of what everyone thinks is you?

when you look at the Imam what u are seeing is a representation of what all Ismailies think is Allah.

Just as through your body u manifest yourself in this world, The Allah manifests himself in this world.

The person who says Aly is Allah is talking nonsense because those who know this fact have annihilated themselves in the divine love of the creator and hence cannot proclaim anything.

To experience this fact means to cease to exist seperate from Aly and when you are yourself Aly and Allah to whom can Allah say Aly is Allah.

Has anyone said I am I?

Its a nonsensical notion to proclaim Aly is Allah, it is a fact to be experienced not proclaimed. It is a fact to live in.

If a huge river enters the ocean where will u say the river ended and the ocean began? are they seperate from each other? when did they start to exist seperate from each other or together. Immerse yourself in the river and experience the ocean. Once you have done that there is no need to say anything because you are the ocean.

Is the fish seperate from the ocean

Is the fish seperate from the river

The fish may think it is seperate from the ocean but all along it was the ocean.

We are like the fish that thinks it is seperate from the ocean when in reality the entire existance of the fish is contingent upon the ocean.

The fact that the fish is alive is proof of the existance of the ocean.

The river is even more a part of the ocean than the fish dont you think?

But in the grand scheme of things there is no place name or thing void of Allah.

THINK REFLECT ANALYSE AND INTERNALYSE

noorani_786 · Post by **noorani_786** » Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:45 pm

Shamshu....awesome explantion!!  He said it all, I have nothing to add. 

aminL · Post by **aminL** » Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:30 pm

At the Paris conference Mowlana Hazar Imam was asked is Imam Allah. Hazar Imam replied at the esoteric level he is. Then he said the esoteric should be left to the esoteric and the exoteric should be left to the exoteric. Also I think that most of you are fermiliar with this term: The Imam Is The Mazar of Allah. What does this mean. Mazar means the place where something is manifest or a place where something resides within. So by sayin the Imam is the Mazar of Allah you are saying that the Noor of Allah is manifest in the Imam.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:15 am

YAM to all
so then is really Hazar Imam Allah?
in 6th part of dua we say,
"There is NONE unto like him (Allah)"
but in quran it says in Sura Noor
"ALLAH IS THE LIGHT OF HEAVENS AND EARTH"
and dosen't Shah Karim have the light of Allah?
Yes he does so dosen't that confirm he is Allah
MHI has defined himself as the bearer of the NOOR of Allah
or Mazhar of Allah but Mowla Hazrat Ali (PBUH) has said

"I am the sign of the Most High, I am the Gnosis of Mysteries, I am the Door of the doors, I am the First and the Last. I am the Manifest and the Hidden. I am the creator. I give birth to the world and I destroy it as I wish. I am the face of God, I am the Supreme Kalam. (Mowlana Hazrat Ali, Khubat al-Bayan. From a total of 70 such declarations, partially quoted in H.Corbin "Histoire de la philosophie islamique", Paris 1964, page 77.)

so he says he IS THE CREATOR, he is FACE OF GOD and the Divine Light
has been passed down through the Imams to our beloved 49th Imam
Mawlana Shah Karim Al-Husseyni. So dosen't this CONFIRM Imam is
Allah? MSMS has said
"There is no one greater than Myself. If you think of God, then it is Myself. If you think of Pir, then too it is Me. If you think about Imam, then too it is Me. And your beloved Master is also Me. There is no one except Myself... (Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah Vadi Jamatkhana, March 16, 1902)
I think that Imam is Allah and dosen't MSMS HIMSELF clarify it?

In my humble interpretation, I think if we remove the PHYSICAL
body of the Imam then he is Allah. I believe that Mawlana Shah Karim
Al- Husseyni is the LIVING QURAN. The light of Mowla Ali and that of
our 49th Imam are the same. If Mowla Ali (PBUH) says he is the living
quran then it has hedeterially been passed down to our beloved, 49th
Imam. But then MHI says he has made mistakes, he has said in firmans
that only ALLAH is perfect.

When we say salwat we say "Oh ALLAH shower thy blessings on Muhammed and his proginy" we don't say oh Hazar Imam?

I am still confused because in some ways he is and some ways hes not
but there is only ONE ALLAH. As I see it Hazar Imam is ALLAH in
human form. Just my views hope I didn't offend anyone

Please don't hesitate and give feedback

Thanks and Ya Ali Madat

--------------------------

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:48 pm

_thaillestlunatic_ wrote:YAM to all
so then is really Hazar Imam Allah?
I am still confused because in some ways he is and some ways hes not
but there is only ONE ALLAH. As I see it Hazar Imam is ALLAH in
human form. Just my views hope I didn't offend anyone

Please don't hesitate and give feedback

Thanks and Ya Ali Madat

--------------------------

YAM "thaillestlunatic"

Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah in one of his conversations with late Dr. Nathoo (the whole article can be accessed in the Anecdotes section titled "My Glorious Fortnight with Sir Sultan ..") said

(Dr. Nathoo) He told me that people often asked him if he was God. He said, “I am everything to everybody. If you consider me God, I am your God. If you consider me your Spiritual Father, I am your Spiritual Father. If you consider me your Imam, I am your Imam. If you consider me only your friend, I am your friend and so on. It depends on your faith. You, too, are a different person to different people: you are son to your parents, a father to your children, a brother to your siblings, etc. But anybody who considers me God at a Shariati level is no better than a “Bhut Parast”(idol worshipper or an iconolater). At the Marfati level, this question does not arise”.

From the above we can see that the concept will depend on from what standpoint one is looking at it. Not everyone is at Haqiqati or Marfati level, so the concept will vary accordingly to facilitate various understandings and standpoints, hence the confusion. For me, the fact that MHI himself has said that he is God at an esoteric level is enough of a confirmation.

The other issue is how we articulate it. MHI in one of the firmans he made to the Syrian Jamats said "Remember that which is Zaher is Zaher and that which is Batin is Batin". Therefore we have to be careful how we talk about it to others. Obviously we cannot express a Batini idea that he is God in a Zaheri context(in public or to people who have no Batini background). We have to be aware of this when discussing this concept. Hence we would say that he is a Mazhar or the interpreter of faith in a Zaheri situation.
I hope that clarifies the situation.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:24 pm

YAM kmaherali,

so then in that essence our 49th Imam would really be god, because our
faith is an ESOTERIC faith it is a batuni faith and ONLY the soul is eternal
so if Hazar Imam has said he is god at the esoteric level which he did: Reference: Paris Conference, then when he delivers a speech or a farman
or comes for a deedar shouldn't we ismailies be treating it as if Allah
himself was physically present, or was speaking through the farmans?
I understand that a shariti momin will never be a haqiqati momin,
but for someone JUST to say he has ONLY the NOOR of Allah and
say Shah Karim is ONLY a guide den wouldn't dat be REALLY stupid
to say? Im not trying to offend anyone at all, just my opinion. Shouldn't
we ALL be haqiqati/amarifat momins? I mean Hazar Imam gives us the
intellect to choose between wat is right and what is wrong and has
given us the free will, freedom of speech but it really upsets me when
people are talking when Hazar Imam's videos are going on or a farman
is being played wouldn't it hurt you in a way kmaherali? I understand
that the batuni should be left to the batuni and zaheri to the zaheri
and know I will know how to respond to questions from non ismailies
but FOR ISMAILIES, in the zaheri life isn't Hazar Imam, Allah in physical
form?
as Shamsu stated in earlier topics
The Noor of Allah Vs Allah
the sun and the sunlight are the same thing but they are not
simutanlioulsy. Hazar Imam is the sunlight and Allah is the Sun
But there is only one god? so would it be RIGHT in your opinion/rationale
to believe in Hazar Imam as Allah? Just needs a LITTLE bit more clarification. Thanks

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kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:27 pm

_thaillestlunatic_ wrote:YAM kmaherali,

But there is only one god? so would it be RIGHT in your opinion/rationale
to believe in Hazar Imam as Allah? Just needs a LITTLE bit more clarification. Thanks

-------------------------

-----------------------

YAM thaillestlunatic

I do not only believe, I am convinced about it. I would not obey him if he was anything less than God.

Yes you are right that we should all be Haqiqati momins and ours is an esoteric faith. However the reality is that not all of us are really Haqiqati. As mentioned elsewhere in this forum MSMS has said that really Haqiqati momins are those who are Farmanbardari. That is not unfortunately the case. Otherwise MSMS would not be making formans such as "There are those amongst you who know next to nothing about religion". By simply doing Baiyat we do not become Haqiqati momins. We have to work for it. That's the reason that there is path available to us to elevate ourselves to haqiqati level.

The other point to bear in mind is that the Murshid addresses murids according to their level or capacity to understand him. The very fact that MHI does not explicitly say it in his Firmans is an indication that most us us do not have the capacity to understand him as God. In my opinion the reason he does not say it in his Firmans is that he wants murids to seek it out for themselves and to practice their faith according to understanding, not simply because you are told to believe that he is God. Real understanding comes through practice and not simply by words or lectures.

I share your frustration about witnessing lack of respect for the Farmans and video of Mowlana HazarImam. Regardless of what you believe about him, I feel that much respect one should give the Imam. After all we are a community because of him and we have benefitted a great deal by being members of the community. So from purely materialistic considerations we owe him at least that much.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:38 pm

so then that would make MHI allah in essence
because believing in 2 gods is condemened in ismailsm
right?
but can't a sharati momin become a haqiqati momin
or it will never happen?
Thanks,

------------------

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Jul 04, 2004 4:22 pm

_thaillestlunatic_ wrote:so then that would make MHI allah in essence
because believing in 2 gods is condemened in ismailsm
right?
but can't a sharati momin become a haqiqati momin
or it will never happen?
Thanks,

------------------

In my opinion, as long as we have not attained Haqiqati Level, this duality of ideas will exist. However, to avoid confusion we must have faith in MHI's statement about the esoteric level. In reality He is God, it is only how we perceive him which raises these issues.

A shariati momin who takes up the path seriously should be able to elevate himself to haqiqati level.

gasajoo · Post by **gasajoo** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:06 am

Hi and Many YAMS

This is an age old question and everytime anyone asks this question already replies to his own question himself. I personally believe that there will never be a standard anwer to this issue.

I remember during an Interview of Hazar Imam in June 1985, he was asked this questuion. "Are u God?" And Hazar Imam`s reply seemed to be "evasive" and he mentioned that when Prophet Mohammad SAS brought the faith of Islam to the Arabs, the Arabs were idol worshippers.

Imam Jaffar As Sadiq was also asked the same question on two different ocassions and he gave the answers to these as: "When u are seeing me, you are seeing God but I am not God"

In other reply, he or another Imam said that "In some ways, We and God arethe same but in some other ways we are the Imams and God is God

There are numerous Ginans giving a large range of possibilities either one way or another .

I would recommend the person asking this question to read Pir; (or Dai)Nasir Khushro`s Roshnai Namah. There is also a book(booklet) called The Recognition of the Imam I do not know the auhor`s name

I feel it is a perons own strength of Faith and Ishk for the Imam which can lead or guide the seeker to the right path.

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Thu Jul 29, 2004 3:26 pm

kmaherali wrote:
_thaillestlunatic_ wrote:so then that would make MHI allah in essence
because believing in 2 gods is condemened in ismailsm
right?
but can't a sharati momin become a haqiqati momin
or it will never happen?
Thanks,

------------------
In my opinion, as long as we have not attained Haqiqati Level, this duality of ideas will exist. However, to avoid confusion we must have faith in MHI's statement about the esoteric level. In reality He is God, it is only how we perceive him which raises these issues.

A shariati momin who takes up the path seriously should be able to elevate himself to haqiqati level.

K there is one solution to this issue.
If we start recognizing Imam as the Original Reality it makes things easier to understand.
When we use the word Allah it is hard to explain. How can you ever explain "nothing" that is a paradigm very far away from us thing bound humans. This aly allah concept is something that cannot be explained or taught, it is known. It grows out of the conviction of faith also known as Iman. Iman comes from love of Imam and love is created by the act of rememberance. Keep remembering until you get to a point where you stop forgetting.

Sorry for the rant

Shams

shamsu · Post by **shamsu** » Thu Aug 05, 2004 12:37 am

I was just wondering, wouldn't it be more appropriate to name this thread

Isn't Allah Imam

N.A. · Post by **N.A.** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 12:35 pm

I am still not convinced that Ali is not Allah. Could anyone please include Quranic references on this topic?

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Mar 08, 2005 2:58 pm

N.A. wrote:I am still not convinced that Ali is not Allah. Could anyone please include Quranic references on this topic?

Your question is a bit confusing. Are you sure there are two 'not's in your statement or just one? If it is just one as I suspect, then I would suggest that you go to the topic "Is Hazar Imam God" under Doctrines. You will find some Quranic references as well as other sources on this subject.

N.A. · Post by **N.A.** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 11:25 am

After a lot of research, I have concluded that the Imam is Allah. First of all let me start by quoting a small portion of a really rare farman by Imam Sultan Mohd. Shah titled Ismailia Mission Conference 1945.

"Then when last in Bombay 8 years ago, many of our people came to me and requested me to add just one word in Dua, and then, they said everything was alright. I said, "What is that one word?" They said, "Instead of 'Ali Allah', say 'Ali-un-walli-Allah'." So I said, "You better drop the whole Dua if you want to alter that word. You are ignorant. It is your ignorance and not that "Ali Allah" is wrong."

Well, after reading the above excerpt, it states clearly that in the old Dua, they used to say 'Ali Allah' but because of some ignorant people, Imam Sultan Mohd. Shah had to alter the Dua just to please the Jamat. The Imam clearly stated that "you should drop the whole Dua if you want to alter that word". Obviously, the word 'Ali Allah' is a powerful word meaning Ali is Allah. Now, since Hazir Imam has the same Noor as Hazrat Ali we arrive to the conclusion that Hazir Imam is Allah. The only difference between all 49 Imam's is their body. Their essence and Noor has always remained the same and will continue to remain the same. I hope I helped.
Ya Ali Madad.

_thaillestlunatic_ · Post by **_thaillestlunatic_** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:07 pm

Well said

www.ismaili.net

Is Imam Allah? ([b]By Ali Raza shallwani[/b])

Is Imam Allah? ([b]By Ali Raza shallwani[/b])

Re: Is Imam Allah? ([b]By Ali Raza shallwani[/b])

ALY IS ALLAH

Is Allah Imam or vic versa?

Allah Imam

Is Imam Allah?