first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

[Admin]

A smile is a blessing from Allah and a forgery is a curse from Satan.

[shivaathervedi]

A smile is a blessing from Allah and a forgery is a curse from Satan.

Looks like it is a tit for tat. At least you accepted that the farman I quoted 'a smile is a blessing from ALLAH IS CORRECT.
WA TU'IZU MON TASHA'U WA TUZILU MON TASHA'U BI YADAKIL KHAIR. INNAKA ALLA KUL I SHAI'N QADEER.
The meaning of ALIYULLAH in 2nd part of Du'a translated is ALI ALLAH KI JAANIB SE HAI, means Ali is from Allah, isn't it? and same meaning is available on your site in meaning of Du'a. Why to blame me. That meaning was adopted by ITREB from the farman I quoted.

[shivaathervedi]

You gave 3 options;
Ali is Allah
Ali of Allah
Ali is from Allah.
So in your opinion one meaning of Aliyullah is," ALI IS FROM ALLAH". Karim this meaning is in your sub conscious that's why few years back you translated Aliyullah as Ali is from Allah in reply to a question asked on this forum. You admitted it lately then backed off..

I gave the 3rd option as 'Ali is from Allah' because it is widely adopted by the institutions but as I explained in my previous post, it is an incorrect translation from the technical point of few. It reflects the translation of ALI MIN ALLAH and not ALIYULLAH. It is adopted because it does not give offence but it is not the correct translation.

Our institutions should make a distinction of the zaheri and the batini translation. The zaheri one which does not give offence is ALI FROM ALLAH but the real and correct translation which is the batini one and for our Jamat must be ALI IS ALLAH which reflects the Imam as the Mazhar and the Illahinaas as per Farman. This distinction must be explained to our students.

It makes no sense to say ALIYULLAH in our Dua if the meaning is ALI FROM ALLAH. We might as well omit it! We are all from ALLAH, so what is special about ALI being from Allah? Hence within our Tariqah we must focus on the batini and the correct meaning.

Regarding statement by Dentist of MSMS, WE ARE NOT ABLE TO VERIFY IT..

I knew the dentist Dr. Nathoo personally when I was in London and I used to meet with him daily to discuss many issues. I have photographs of him with MSMS. Whatever he has said is absolutely true. He was also the president of the Nairobi provincial council. MSMS chose him because he was the most learned out of the lot and who could explain the other leaders.

Why Imam in first place caved in the pressure from other communities to change KALIMA PAAK WHICH WAS GOING ON FOR 600 YEARS AS SOME ONE CLAIMED ON THIS FORUM. I DO NOT CHALLENGE THE WISDOM OF IMAM BUT WHEN ONCE HE CHANGED IT AND EXPLAINED THE MEANING THEN WE HAVE TO FOLLOW HIS GUIDANCE.

As I explained in my previous post it was not intended to change the meaning. Only to make it less offensive. If the Imam intended to change the meaning he would have changed to ALIYUN VALI ALLAH or ALI MIN ALLAH but he stuck with ALIYULLAH which technically and correctly means ALI IS ALLAH.

YOU did not reply when I asked you in my previous post and I ask you again. If you think ALIYULLAH does not mean ALI IS ALLAH, what expression in Arabic would mean ALI IS ALLAH?

The meaning of Aliyullah translated in 2nd part of Du'a that Ali is from Allah exists past 50+ years no one objected since. As I understand it was adopted from the farman of 1964 which I quoted, where Imam explained the meaning of ALIYULLH himself as ALI is from Allah.
Literally Aliyullah means Ali of Allah, as kitabullah, ka'batullah, Rasulullah and so on. Imam is aware of meaning of ALIYULLAH in Du'a books, IF IT WAS WRONG HE SHOULD HAD CHANGED IT. It is you who claims meaning of Aliyullah as 'Ali is Allah' then you give the Arabic expression what it can be?
Past 600/700 years the Kalimah was not offensive but all of sudden it became offensive and MSMS changed it!! I don't think this is a valid argument.
Imam is Mazhar of Allah but not Rubbin Naas or Illahin Naas.
Imam selected Dr. Nathu to explain why he changed Kalimah and neglected Top Leadership, Top Missionaries and Presidents of then Ismailai Associations. MSMS did not explained this crucial issue in 1952 Avian conference when 40
Top leaders were present. There he talked about modern dresses, language problem and other issues but neglected the most important issue.

[ismaili103]

Past 600/700 years the Kalimah was not offensive but all of sudden it became offensive and MSMS changed it!! I don't think this is a valid argument.

Past 700 years, there was no Internet
No terrorism and religious extremism

[Admin]

As I understand it was adopted from the farman of 1964 which I quoted, where Imam explained the meaning of ALIYULLH himself as ALI is from Allah.
Literally Aliyullah means Ali of Allah, as kitabullah, ka'batullah, Rasulullah and so on. Imam is aware of meaning of ALIYULLAH in Du'a books, IF IT WAS WRONG HE SHOULD HAD CHANGED IT.

Please remind us, exactely who are you to tell what the Imam should have done or should not have done?

And again saying you quoted a Farman which does not exist. Repeating a lie a thousand time does not turn it into a truth. If you have the Farman, post it here. If not take your "mohan-vrat" for the rest of August. I mean it. Thank you.

[kmaherali]

The meaning of Aliyullah translated in 2nd part of Du'a that Ali is from Allah exists past 50+ years no one objected since. As I understand it was adopted from the farman of 1964 which I quoted, where Imam explained the meaning of ALIYULLH himself as ALI is from Allah.

If the Imam gave the Hidayat that the translation be ALI IS FROM ALLAH given that it is a wrong translation, the implication is that it is less offensive. Otherwise if the intention was to change the meaning than he would have changed the expression itself to ALI MIN ALLAH so that everyone understands it as such.

Literally Aliyullah means Ali of Allah, as kitabullah, ka'batullah, Rasulullah and so on. Imam is aware of meaning of ALIYULLAH in Du'a books, IF IT WAS WRONG HE SHOULD HAD CHANGED IT. It is you who claims meaning of Aliyullah as 'Ali is Allah' then you give the Arabic expression what it can be? .

It can also mean ALI IS ALLAH as in ALLAHU AKBER, ALLAHU NURU SAMAWATI WAL ARDH etc. Hence it is verastile as I explained before.

Past 600/700 years the Kalimah was not offensive but all of sudden it became offensive and MSMS changed it!! I don't think this is a valid argument..

Until some 70 years ago it did not matter whether one recited Dua in Gujerati. It did not matter whether there were any Quranic Ayats in Dua. It did not matter whether one ever recited/read the Qur'an. Things have changed since then. MHI in his Oct 6th 1988 Farman made in Dar es Salaam said:

"Our tradition goes back centuries. It is an esoteric tradition; it is an intellectual tradition; it is a personal tradition; it is a tradition that stems from Hazrat Ali and there will be no compromise on the essence of those traditions. And I simply wish to clarify this today, because as the world gets smaller, our Jamat enters into contact with other Murids in other parts of the world. It enters into contact with other Tariqahs in Islam. And there are those amongst you and amongst other Tariqahs who are seeking to understand their own tradition and who are seeking to learn.

.....

There will be an attempt to take account of the pressures of modern life. There will be an attempt to make sure that traditions are understood within the Jamat and outside and that they do not give offence."

It is in the late 20th century accoding to the above Farman that we entered into contact with other Tariqahs and hence the argument about giving offence became effective then and not centuries before.

Imam is Mazhar of Allah but not Rubbin Naas or Illahin Naas..

Then you are going against the Qur'an and the Imam because Qur'an states that the 3 terms - Rabb, Malik and Illahi naas mean the same. The Imam said he was Malikinaas.

Imam selected Dr. Nathu to explain why he changed Kalimah and neglected Top Leadership, Top Missionaries and Presidents of then Ismailai Associations. MSMS did not explained this crucial issue in 1952 Avian conference when 40
Top leaders were present. There he talked about modern dresses, language problem and other issues but neglected the most important issue.

We have no information whether or not the Imam explained the change to the leaders but we know for sure he explained it to Dr. Nathoo. It the Imam's prerogative of whom to explain.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad.
kmaherali is rightfully seeking his place as Attorney of ALI.
MHI has upteem our is tradition of intellect which mean he is telling to understand and accept the essence over and above rational sense and and much much much above common sense.
if Allahukbar mean God is Great.
we understand Aliuallah as ALI is Allah.
no two school ot tough but VARING LEVEL n interpreting it.
this word are clearly mention when the word mazhar was used in conference.

why the word tawhid is mentioned with shahada?
why varing level is mentioned in minutes of the conference.
why does MHI says
he is bearer of NOOR.
spiritual father.(only God can be it).
Mazar dith e iiahi.
Noor of ALI is above everyone else.
one need to respect and try explore it INTELLECTUALLY and not not like a donkey or dog as mentioned by Imam SMS for zahiris
this seshnaag name get demoted to Baby Naag from now on.
he is abundant of common sense ( not needed at all) and near zero intellect and low level of rational sense.
at common sense to general public aliullah can be Ali is from allah( ali+lah).
for intellect perception and haqiqat it Ali is Allah same as Allahuakbar.

[Admin]

"You are ignorant. It is your ignorance and not that 'Ali Allah' is wrong"

This was said by Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah at the Mission Conference in 1945. There is a section opened for documents from that Ismaili Association Conference in Dar es Salam on the following link:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=8674

It is through these well documented Farmans of the previous Imam as well as the concept of Mazhar (Paris Conference 1975) proponed by the Present Imam that we ca better understand our faith. Not through some forgeries.

Paris Conference: http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=8185

[shivaathervedi]

Past 600/700 years the Kalimah was not offensive but all of sudden it became offensive and MSMS changed it!! I don't think this is a valid argument.

Past 700 years, there was no Internet
No terrorism and religious extremism

Yes there was no internet but terrorism and religious extremism did existed and thousands of Ismailis were massacred. Please read history.

[shivaathervedi]

As I understand it was adopted from the farman of 1964 which I quoted, where Imam explained the meaning of ALIYULLH himself as ALI is from Allah.
Literally Aliyullah means Ali of Allah, as kitabullah, ka'batullah, Rasulullah and so on. Imam is aware of meaning of ALIYULLAH in Du'a books, IF IT WAS WRONG HE SHOULD HAD CHANGED IT.

Please remind us, exactely who are you to tell what the Imam should have done or should not have done?

And again saying you quoted a Farman which does not exist. Repeating a lie a thousand time does not turn it into a truth. If you have the Farman, post it here. If not take your "mohan-vrat" for the rest of August. I mean it. Thank you.

I know it is right of Imam to select or appoint any one but my question is in 1945 he refused to change Kalimah and in 1950 he changed it and for that change he made, I provided you farman SAY THAT FARMAN WAS WRONG ALSO?. The 1964 farman was provided to you why don't you post it. Please post all 4 farmans on that particular page and let readers decide. Three times I asked you to e-mail ITREB kARACHI AND VERIFY, WHY ARE YOU RUNNING AWAY.

[shivaathervedi]

"You are ignorant. It is your ignorance and not that 'Ali Allah' is wrong"

This was said by Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah at the Mission Conference in 1945. There is a section opened for documents from that Ismaili Association Conference in Dar es Salam on the following link:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=8674

It is through these well documented Farmans of the previous Imam as well as the concept of Mazhar (Paris Conference 1975) proponed by the Present Imam that we ca better understand our faith. Not through some forgeries.

Paris Conference: http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=8185

I provided you 1950 farman in which MSMS said he made changes in Du'a with his hands according to changing times. Please post that farman readable on this page or say that farman is fake or fabricated. Be courageous.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali madad.
kmaherali is rightfully seeking his place as Attorney of ALI.
MHI has upteem our is tradition of intellect which mean he is telling to understand and accept the essence over and above rational sense and and much much much above common sense.
if Allahukbar mean God is Great.
we understand Aliuallah as ALI is Allah.
no two school ot tough but VARING LEVEL n interpreting it.
this word are clearly mention when the word mazhar was used in conference.

why the word tawhid is mentioned with shahada?
why varing level is mentioned in minutes of the conference.
why does MHI says
he is bearer of NOOR.
spiritual father.(only God can be it).
Mazar dith e iiahi.
Noor of ALI is above everyone else.
one need to respect and try explore it INTELLECTUALLY and not not like a donkey or dog as mentioned by Imam SMS for zahiris
this seshnaag name get demoted to Baby Naag from now on.
he is abundant of common sense ( not needed at all) and near zero intellect and low level of rational sense.
at common sense to general public aliullah can be Ali is from allah( ali+lah).
for intellect perception and haqiqat it Ali is Allah same as Allahuakbar.

I asked you question about Qasidah you heard in Dubai games, you did not replied as you never replied previous ones. It is same rhetoric in all your posts Ali+lah do you understand the meaning of LAA?. You wrote Imam is bearer of Noor, my question to you NOOR OF WHO means you are talking of other higher entity. Same way you wrote Mazhar e Dhat Illahi, again question is Mazhar of who and that is Dhat e Illai menas higher entity. Read meaning of Kalima shahadah and then make your point. In Kalimah Shahadah you will find the phrase ALIYULLAH means Ali is from Allah.

[Admin]

Mr Mazhar, you keep repeating your lies like a broken record. You will be banned. You have been warned.

You yourself sent the Farman of 1950 and everyone could see you lied and Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah never said Ali is from Allah like you pretended. Then you tried to justify your lie in saying it was the translation but the translation was even not mentioned in the Farman. You did the same for some alleged 1964 Farman and you were proved wrong. Again you tried to hide your lie by more lies.

All your postings containing any of those lies or any more will be deleted. I will not reply to question on why I delete your posting. I have already given you the reply.

Admin

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad.

If quran ,one must see the Ayat the punishment ofr those who wrong the word of Allah(ali+lah=allah).
by mis representing and fabricating MHI words,he is doing great damage to his soul.
When
MHI say
Noor of ali id above everyone else.mean there is no one else above that
when he say he is bearer of Noor and allah has defined himself in holy book. he does mention of whom.he is the bearer ,and emmitter.BUCK STOP THERE.he is siritual father of Humanity mean not himself a spiritual child of whom..there is no whom above him .his name is is to be searched in that word a time pass popular brand name )
when in a speech he says that Imamat is beyond comphrension of human mind,only allah has siad about himself in holy book.
all these no time pass or brand name allah was/is used.
as he himself is allah.
stop barking of whom/of whom.
there is no Allah pe se only ALI that exists.
it a word used by God/ALI to explore it deeply.

if a sufi know ALI=lah(nothing)=allah.
so he praises ALI is poetic words with explained laa
as JAB KUCH NAHI THAA.
for ALI as WAHEE THA WAHEE THA.

ask any small Ismaili child with common sense.
in our tabish we say.
allahuakabar.
ya aliulazim,ya aliulkarim,ya sahebe zaman ya hazar imam.
is allah IS great of allah is from great.
if ALI IS azim or ali is from azim,ali is karim or ali is from karim.
this baby naag will deny aal this.
same way aliullah in jamatkahan and essence mean Ali is Allah
tweaked from Ali sahi Allah.
for outsiders this is also to be read(not understood) as Ali is from allah
in publications and direction of ITREB.

he must meet a senior al waez and ask if above three and aliuallah mean
IS and not from. and why ITREB
say it from.he will get answer.
that MHI directs what is said to jamat by al waez which information is not openly printed by ITREB.

[shivaathervedi]

The meaning of Aliyullah translated in 2nd part of Du'a that Ali is from Allah exists past 50+ years no one objected since. As I understand it was adopted from the farman of 1964 which I quoted, where Imam explained the meaning of ALIYULLH himself as ALI is from Allah.

If the Imam gave the Hidayat that the translation be ALI IS FROM ALLAH given that it is a wrong translation, the implication is that it is less offensive. Otherwise if the intention was to change the meaning than he would have changed the expression itself to ALI MIN ALLAH so that everyone understands it as such.

Literally Aliyullah means Ali of Allah, as kitabullah, ka'batullah, Rasulullah and so on. Imam is aware of meaning of ALIYULLAH in Du'a books, IF IT WAS WRONG HE SHOULD HAD CHANGED IT. It is you who claims meaning of Aliyullah as 'Ali is Allah' then you give the Arabic expression what it can be? .

It can also mean ALI IS ALLAH as in ALLAHU AKBER, ALLAHU NURU SAMAWATI WAL ARDH etc. Hence it is verastile as I explained before.

Past 600/700 years the Kalimah was not offensive but all of sudden it became offensive and MSMS changed it!! I don't think this is a valid argument..

Until some 70 years ago it did not matter whether one recited Dua in Gujerati. It did not matter whether there were any Quranic Ayats in Dua. It did not matter whether one ever recited/read the Qur'an. Things have changed since then. MHI in his Oct 6th 1988 Farman made in Dar es Salaam said:

"Our tradition goes back centuries. It is an esoteric tradition; it is an intellectual tradition; it is a personal tradition; it is a tradition that stems from Hazrat Ali and there will be no compromise on the essence of those traditions. And I simply wish to clarify this today, because as the world gets smaller, our Jamat enters into contact with other Murids in other parts of the world. It enters into contact with other Tariqahs in Islam. And there are those amongst you and amongst other Tariqahs who are seeking to understand their own tradition and who are seeking to learn.

.....

There will be an attempt to take account of the pressures of modern life. There will be an attempt to make sure that traditions are understood within the Jamat and outside and that they do not give offence."

It is in the late 20th century accoding to the above Farman that we entered into contact with other Tariqahs and hence the argument about giving offence became effective then and not centuries before.

Imam is Mazhar of Allah but not Rubbin Naas or Illahin Naas..

Then you are going against the Qur'an and the Imam because Qur'an states that the 3 terms - Rabb, Malik and Illahi naas mean the same. The Imam said he was Malikinaas.

Imam selected Dr. Nathu to explain why he changed Kalimah and neglected Top Leadership, Top Missionaries and Presidents of then Ismailai Associations. MSMS did not explained this crucial issue in 1952 Avian conference when 40
Top leaders were present. There he talked about modern dresses, language problem and other issues but neglected the most important issue.

We have no information whether or not the Imam explained the change to the leaders but we know for sure he explained it to Dr. Nathoo. It the Imam's prerogative of whom to explain.

I dare not to go against Quran. If I need Hidayat and explanation my Imam is here to guide. MSMS said in farman that my Arab murids get Hidayat from Quran. True Ismailis can't neglect Quran. Quran should be implemented in JKs so that jamaits become familiar with Quranic Tailimaat.
Karim you have good collection of farmans, I challenged you before and challenging you again, POST ANY FARMAN IN WHICH IMAM DECLARED OR CLAIMED TO BE RUBBIN NAAS, ILLAHIN NAAS, MALIKIN NAAS. No deductions, indutions, additions or subtractions. Need straight farman, IF YOU DO NOT HAVE SUCH FARMAN ADMIT YOU DO NOT HAVE.
What happened, what went wrong at that time, what kind of danger was, what type of offence from other communities that all of sudden MSMS changed the wordings in third part of Kalimah Shahadah and induced in Du'a the phrase ALIYULLAH and left jamaits wandering! Though in 1945 he refused to change Kalima.
Ismailis believe Imam knows every thing. IS HE NOT AWARE THAT PAST 50+ YEARS IN DU'A BOOK THERE EXISTED MEANING OF ALIYULLAH AS " ALI IS FROM ALLAH". I have seen the same meaning whether in English, Urdu, and Gujrati translations of Du'a. Du'a is not meant for general public or non Ismailis and they are not obliged to recite or learn meaning of Du'a. So your argument is not valid that Ali is from Allah translated to pacify them.
Other Tariqas have not changed their basic and fundamental articles of faith but Ismailis were scared and changed the basic Kalimah which was in force past 600/700 years.
I wander why Dr. Nathu became so important all of sudden though he posted his article some time before his demise and rest of years he was silent. You are also not positive that this topic came up for discussion or questions asked in 1952 Evian conference.
Lately you have become VERSATILE because you have started using this word. You wrote about some Quranic phrases are VERSATILE, what you think rest of Quran , is that not versatile or only those phrases which suits your arguments are versatile. SAY, KARIM IS 5 AND HALF FEET TALL BUT KMAHERALI IS MORE VERSATILE AND GREAT BECAUSE HE IS 5 FEET AND 10 INCHES TALL!!?

[Admin]

Imam has said that My Leaders get away with murder. He knows it but he will not interfere. He has confirmed that they work independently and do not have access to Imam's though process. This is in the Public. So it should not be difficult to understand that Imam will not be correcting every words in publications by his institution, this is not his task. He approves the Dua. We translate, not Him.

Secondly Malikin Naas, Rabin Naas, lets not turn round and round. Everyone has already given his understanding. Why repeat again and again. This is against NETIQUETTE - Please be mindful of wasting other people's time with repetitions.

[shivaathervedi]

Ya Ali madad.

If quran ,one must see the Ayat the punishment ofr those who wrong the word of Allah(ali+lah=allah).
by mis representing and fabricating MHI words,he is doing great damage to his soul.
When
MHI say
Noor of ali id above everyone else.mean there is no one else above that
when he say he is bearer of Noor and allah has defined himself in holy book. he does mention of whom.he is the bearer ,and emmitter.BUCK STOP THERE.he is siritual father of Humanity mean not himself a spiritual child of whom..there is no whom above him .his name is is to be searched in that word a time pass popular brand name )
when in a speech he says that Imamat is beyond comphrension of human mind,only allah has siad about himself in holy book.
all these no time pass or brand name allah was/is used.
as he himself is allah.
stop barking of whom/of whom.
there is no Allah pe se only ALI that exists.
it a word used by God/ALI to explore it deeply.

if a sufi know ALI=lah(nothing)=allah.
so he praises ALI is poetic words with explained laa
as JAB KUCH NAHI THAA.
for ALI as WAHEE THA WAHEE THA.

ask any small Ismaili child with common sense.
in our tabish we say.
allahuakabar.
ya aliulazim,ya aliulkarim,ya sahebe zaman ya hazar imam.
is allah IS great of allah is from great.
if ALI IS azim or ali is from azim,ali is karim or ali is from karim.
this baby naag will deny aal this.
same way aliullah in jamatkahan and essence mean Ali is Allah
tweaked from Ali sahi Allah.
for outsiders this is also to be read(not understood) as Ali is from allah
in publications and direction of ITREB.

he must meet a senior al waez and ask if above three and aliuallah mean
IS and not from. and why ITREB
say it from.he will get answer.
that MHI directs what is said to jamat by al waez which information is not openly printed by ITREB.

Mostly time when you write you are PK. I think in your previous AVTAR you were dog that's why you keep writing the word barking. If you keep barking in this way then in your next AVTAR you will be dog again.
Show me in which ayat is mentiond your baby formula Ali+la.
Ali is bearer of NOOR OF ALLAH. Buck stops here.
Outsiders have no time to read publications of ITREB and that Ali is from ALLAH IS MEANT FOR ISMAILIS
You keep promoting christianty that's why keep calling Imam as spiritual father. Christ is known as son of God? Is Imam son of God?!
You have quoted JAB KUCHH NAHI THA... Let me complete rest in your honor;

JAB KHUCHH NA THA TOU ALLAH THA
GAR KUCHH NA HOTA TOU ALLAH HOTA
DHUBUYYA TUJH KO TERRY HONNE NEY
GAR TU NA HOTA TOU ACHHA HOTA

[Admin]

.
Ali is bearer of NOOR OF ALLAH. Buck stops here....

You keep promoting christianty that's why keep calling Imam as spiritual father.

Did Imam ever said that he is the Bearer of the Noor of Allah or did he say he is the Bearer of the Noor full stop or did he say that Allah his the Bearer of His Noor... Quote the exact saying please. Does Imam say it is His own Noor or not? First be clear yourself then give us the reference [hint hint, Farman below the first photo in Golden Edition Farmans, 1964]

Secondly if Ismailis Imam call his Murid as His "Beloved Spiritual Children", who are you to forbid us to call Him as our Beloved Spiritual Father?

I have seen you making a lot of new doctrines, by this time you have made so many of them that you should start your own religion and proclaim yourself as a Prophet.

[kmaherali]

[Karim you have good collection of farmans, I challenged you before and challenging you again, POST ANY FARMAN IN WHICH IMAM DECLARED OR CLAIMED TO BE RUBBIN NAAS, ILLAHIN NAAS, MALIKIN NAAS. No deductions, indutions, additions or subtractions. Need straight farman, IF YOU DO NOT HAVE SUCH FARMAN ADMIT YOU DO NOT HAVE.!!?

The Farman is there for those who have intellects. For those who do not, they will remain perpetually blind.

What happened, what went wrong at that time, what kind of danger was, what type of offence from other communities that all of sudden MSMS changed the wordings in third part of Kalimah Shahadah and induced in Du'a the phrase ALIYULLAH and left jamaits wandering! Though in 1945 he refused to change Kalima.

It is the Imam's absolute prerogative as to when to make changes.

Ismailis believe Imam knows every thing. IS HE NOT AWARE THAT PAST 50+ YEARS IN DU'A BOOK THERE EXISTED MEANING OF ALIYULLAH AS " ALI IS FROM ALLAH". I have seen the same meaning whether in English, Urdu, and Gujrati translations of Du'a. Du'a is not meant for general public or non Ismailis and they are not obliged to recite or learn meaning of Du'a. So your argument is not valid that Ali is from Allah translated to pacify them.

As I keep saying you don't read my posts. The Farman I quoted stated:

"There will be an attempt to make sure that traditions are understood within the Jamat and outside and that they do not give offence."

So our traditions have to be understood within our Tariqah and outside as well and therefore should not give offence to the outsiders.

Other Tariqas have not changed their basic and fundamental articles of faith but Ismailis were scared and changed the basic Kalimah which was in force past 600/700 years.

MSMS in his memoirs has said:

"Ismailism has survived because it has always been fluid. Rigidity is contrary to our whole way of life and outlook."

I wander why Dr. Nathu became so important all of sudden though he posted his article some time before his demise and rest of years he was silent. You are also not positive that this topic came up for discussion or questions asked in 1952 Evian conference.

I can't be positive because I have not known the leaders of the past nor have I seen any documentation about what was discussed. Dr. Nathoo wrote many articles, this was not the only one.

Lately you have become VERSATILE because you have started using this word. You wrote about some Quranic phrases are VERSATILE, what you think rest of Quran , is that not versatile or only those phrases which suits your arguments are versatile. SAY, KARIM IS 5 AND HALF FEET TALL BUT KMAHERALI IS MORE VERSATILE AND GREAT BECAUSE HE IS 5 FEET AND 10 INCHES TALL!!?

Versatility is the nature of our Tariqah and the nature of the Qur'an. MSMS says in his Memoirs:

Fortunately the Koran has itself made this task easy, for it contains a number of verses which declare that Allah speaks to man in allegory and parable. Thus the Koran leaves the door open for all kinds of possibilities of interpretation so that no one interpreter can accuse another of being non-Muslim. A felicitous effect of this fundamental principle of Islam that the Koran is constantly open to allegorical interpretation has been that our Holy Book has been able to guide and illuminate the thought of believers, century after century, in accordance with the conditions and limitations of intellectual appreciation imposed by external influences in the world. It leads also to a greater charity among Muslims, for since there can be no cut-and-dried interpretation, all schools of thought can unite in the prayer that the Almighty in His infinite mercy may forgive any mistaken interpretation of the Faith whose cause is ignorance or misunderstanding.

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

[shivaathervedi]

.
Ali is bearer of NOOR OF ALLAH. Buck stops here....

You keep promoting christianty that's why keep calling Imam as spiritual father.

Did Imam ever said that he is the Bearer of the Noor of Allah or did he say he is the Bearer of the Noor full stop or did he say that Allah his the Bearer of His Noor... Quote the exact saying please. Does Imam say it is His own Noor or not? First be clear yourself then give us the reference [hint hint, Farman below the first photo in Golden Edition Farmans, 1964]

Secondly if Ismailis Imam call his Murid as His "Beloved Spiritual Children", who are you to forbid us to call Him as our Beloved Spiritual Father?

I have seen you making a lot of new doctrines, by this time you have made so many of them that you should start your own religion and proclaim yourself as a Prophet.

Prophet Muhammad said," ANA MIN NOORILLAH WAL KHALIQU KULUHUM MIN NOORI" I am from Noor of Allah and all creation is from my Noor.
In other Hadith Prophet said," ANA WA ALIYYUN MIN NOORIN WAHID" I and Ali are from same Noor. These Hadith prove that Muhammad and Ali are from same Noor of Allah. MSMS said," I am the Noor of both Hazrat ALI and Holy Prophet.
OHANG NIRINJIN EEK WARKHASHJ KITA
UNN KU DHALI DOEEY JO DITA
EEK NOOR E MUHAMMAD MUSTAFA
DUJA NOOR ALI MURTAZA.

Few quotations from KHUTBA E BAYAN;
I AM ALLAH'S HUJJAT ON HIS CREATURES.
I AM THE DIVINE SUSTAINER 'WALI ALLH'.
I AM THE AMR OF ALLAH.
I AM THE SPIRIT OF ALLAH.
I AM THE ONE WHO HAS BEEN NOMINATED BY ALLAH TO BLOW THE FINAL WHISTLE.
I AM THE ONE WHO'S OBEDIENCE HAS BEEN MADE COMPULSORY BY ALLAH.

[Admin]

Choose and pick is as bad as cut and paste

This subject is already discussed in:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 530ee7cd84

Please continue it there.

[shivaathervedi]

[Karim you have good collection of farmans, I challenged you before and challenging you again, POST ANY FARMAN IN WHICH IMAM DECLARED OR CLAIMED TO BE RUBBIN NAAS, ILLAHIN NAAS, MALIKIN NAAS. No deductions, indutions, additions or subtractions. Need straight farman, IF YOU DO NOT HAVE SUCH FARMAN ADMIT YOU DO NOT HAVE.!!?

The Farman is there for those who have intellects. For those who do not, they will remain perpetually blind.

What happened, what went wrong at that time, what kind of danger was, what type of offence from other communities that all of sudden MSMS changed the wordings in third part of Kalimah Shahadah and induced in Du'a the phrase ALIYULLAH and left jamaits wandering! Though in 1945 he refused to change Kalima.

It is the Imam's absolute prerogative as to when to make changes.

Ismailis believe Imam knows every thing. IS HE NOT AWARE THAT PAST 50+ YEARS IN DU'A BOOK THERE EXISTED MEANING OF ALIYULLAH AS " ALI IS FROM ALLAH". I have seen the same meaning whether in English, Urdu, and Gujrati translations of Du'a. Du'a is not meant for general public or non Ismailis and they are not obliged to recite or learn meaning of Du'a. So your argument is not valid that Ali is from Allah translated to pacify them.

As I keep saying you don't read my posts. The Farman I quoted stated:

"There will be an attempt to make sure that traditions are understood within the Jamat and outside and that they do not give offence."

So our traditions have to be understood within our Tariqah and outside as well and therefore should not give offence to the outsiders.

Other Tariqas have not changed their basic and fundamental articles of faith but Ismailis were scared and changed the basic Kalimah which was in force past 600/700 years.

MSMS in his memoirs has said:

"Ismailism has survived because it has always been fluid. Rigidity is contrary to our whole way of life and outlook."

I wander why Dr. Nathu became so important all of sudden though he posted his article some time before his demise and rest of years he was silent. You are also not positive that this topic came up for discussion or questions asked in 1952 Evian conference.

I can't be positive because I have not known the leaders of the past nor have I seen any documentation about what was discussed. Dr. Nathoo wrote many articles, this was not the only one.

Lately you have become VERSATILE because you have started using this word. You wrote about some Quranic phrases are VERSATILE, what you think rest of Quran , is that not versatile or only those phrases which suits your arguments are versatile. SAY, KARIM IS 5 AND HALF FEET TALL BUT KMAHERALI IS MORE VERSATILE AND GREAT BECAUSE HE IS 5 FEET AND 10 INCHES TALL!!?

Versatility is the nature of our Tariqah and the nature of the Qur'an. MSMS says in his Memoirs:

Fortunately the Koran has itself made this task easy, for it contains a number of verses which declare that Allah speaks to man in allegory and parable. Thus the Koran leaves the door open for all kinds of possibilities of interpretation so that no one interpreter can accuse another of being non-Muslim. A felicitous effect of this fundamental principle of Islam that the Koran is constantly open to allegorical interpretation has been that our Holy Book has been able to guide and illuminate the thought of believers, century after century, in accordance with the conditions and limitations of intellectual appreciation imposed by external influences in the world. It leads also to a greater charity among Muslims, for since there can be no cut-and-dried interpretation, all schools of thought can unite in the prayer that the Almighty in His infinite mercy may forgive any mistaken interpretation of the Faith whose cause is ignorance or misunderstanding.

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

Question arises of your credibility. You keep dodging instead of posting that particular farman. We know there is no such farman in which Imam claimed to be RUBBIN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS, MALIKIN NAAS. If there has been such farman you should have immediately posted as per your habit of posting farmans and quotations from Memoirs. When I provided admin the farmans of 1950 and 1964 and posted on this forum, why you hesitate to post the farman? Proof is, there is no such farman. Now you are looking for " PATLI GALI TO DISAPPEAR FROM THERE."
Once again post that particular farman with place, date, and year. Seeing is believing.
Ismailism is fluid as said by MSMS, but that fluidity is not for changing tenets of Islam and Ismailism that is ALLAH, RASUL, AND IMAM ACCORDING TO DU'A.
Yes it is prerogative of Imam to make change, but once change was made to ALIYULLAH AND ITS MEANING MENTIONED IN OFFICIAL DU'A MEANING BY ITREB THAT ALI IS FRO ALLAH THEN BEING AN ISMAILI WE HAVE TO FOLLOW AND DO NOT ARGUE. AAMINA WA SADIQNA.
So Quran interpretationS which suits your purpose are VERSATILE AND OTHERS ARE NOT, ISN'T IT?

[shivaathervedi]

IT IS IN RESPONSE TO KMAHERALI. HE CLAIMS THAT IMAM IN A FARMAN SAID " HE IS RUBBIN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS, MALIKIN NAAS."

Following is the communication from the secretariat of Hazar Imam to Life Magazine published in issue of Feb 1984. It is self explanatory about Tawheed which is fundamental and basic tenet of Islam and Ismailism. The communications reads as follow;

The December 1983 issue contained an article about, and an interview with, His Highness the Aga Khan. Life has received a communication from his secretariat indicating that portions of the article, which were in no way attributable to the interview with His Highness, were unintentionally incorrect and offensive to the Shia Imami Ismailis, to whom the Aga Khan is the Imam, as well as to Muslims worldwide.The communication continues:
The introduction to the article on page 71 contained the most serious misrepresentations. The very first sentence reffered to the Aga Kkan both as"A LIVING GOD" and "THE SPOKESMAN FOR ALMIGHTY ALLAH." Both of these assertions are not only fundamentally erroneous, but of immeasurable offense to Muslims every where.
In common with all Muslims throughout the world, the Ismails affirm the fundamental Islamic testimony of truth, the SHAHADA, THAT THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH AND THAT MUHAMMAD IS HIS MESSENGER. It is the universal Muslim belief that Muhammad was the last and final Prophet of Allah, the monotheistic Deity to whom all Muslims direct their prayers, and that the Holy Quran, Allah's final message to mankind, was revealed through him.
In common with all Shia Muslims, Ismailis affirm that after the Prophet Muhammad death, Hazrat Ali , the Prophet's cousin and son-in -law, became the first Imam of the Muslim community, and that his leadership( known as Imamat) continues thereafter by heredity through Ali and his wife Fatima, the Prophet's daughter . The Aga Khan is th 49th hereditary Imam, spiritual leader of Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims.. The unity of Allah, " TAWHEED " is one of the fundamental principles of Islam. For Life to assert that the Aga Khan is " a living god " and " spokesman for Allah " is a total misrepresentation of the most basic TENET of one of the world's major faiths, and a serious affront to all Muslims.

[shivaathervedi]

Choose and pick is as bad as cut and paste

This subject is already discussed in:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 530ee7cd84

Please continue it there.

I know the thread you mentioned. I was responding to a question in which you asked me," did Imam ever said he is bearer of Noor of Allah."
By the way 80% of posts in this forum are CHOOSE AND PICK/CUT AND PASTE.
You have double standards. I usually give references and encourage others to do that.

[Admin]

Yes as per your habits you turn round and round and never reply to a question. So do you plane to reply and what date?

[kmaherali]

IT IS IN RESPONSE TO KMAHERALI. HE CLAIMS THAT IMAM IN A FARMAN SAID " HE IS RUBBIN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS, MALIKIN NAAS."

Following is the communication from the secretariat of Hazar Imam to Life Magazine published in issue of Feb 1984. It is self explanatory about Tawheed which is fundamental and basic tenet of Islam and Ismailism. The communications reads as follow;

Life Magazine is the Zaher. This forum is the Batin. I am not making public statement that the Imam is Illahi naas, I am only discussing this in this forum for the benefit of murids who have a batini perspective of issues. Ours is an esoteric tradition and the meaning is for the Jamat only, not for others.

Of course the Imam has said in his Farman that he is Malikinaas and I have posted the Farman several times.

The Qur'an is very clear that Malikinaas is also Rabbanaas and Illahinaas.

A bit of common sense and intellect is required in an esoteric tradition.

[ismaili103]

I know the thread you mentioned. I was responding to a question in which you asked me," did Imam ever said he is bearer of Noor of Allah."
By the way 80% of posts in this forum are CHOOSE AND PICK/CUT AND PASTE.
You have double standards. I usually give references and encourage others to do that.

And in the same sermons Mowla Ali said that he is the Creator , Sustainer , First and Last etc.

[shivaathervedi]

I know the thread you mentioned. I was responding to a question in which you asked me," did Imam ever said he is bearer of Noor of Allah."
By the way 80% of posts in this forum are CHOOSE AND PICK/CUT AND PASTE.
You have double standards. I usually give references and encourage others to do that.

And in the same sermons Mowla Ali said that he is the Creator , Sustainer , First and Last etc.

Prophet Muhammad and Mowla Ali are NOORULLAH. That Noor was in the beginning therefore it is first and will be around here till dooms day therefore it is last.
By the way a mother is also a creator and a father sustainer.

[shivaathervedi]

IT IS IN RESPONSE TO KMAHERALI. HE CLAIMS THAT IMAM IN A FARMAN SAID " HE IS RUBBIN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS, MALIKIN NAAS."

Following is the communication from the secretariat of Hazar Imam to Life Magazine published in issue of Feb 1984. It is self explanatory about Tawheed which is fundamental and basic tenet of Islam and Ismailism. The communications reads as follow;

Life Magazine is the Zaher. This forum is the Batin. I am not making public statement that the Imam is Illahi naas, I am only discussing this in this forum for the benefit of murids who have a batini perspective of issues. Ours is an esoteric tradition and the meaning is for the Jamat only, not for others.

Of course the Imam has said in his Farman that he is Malikinaas and I have posted the Farman several times.

The Qur'an is very clear that Malikinaas is also Rabbanaas and Illahinaas.

A bit of common sense and intellect is required in an esoteric tradition.

The communication from secretariat of Hazar Imam to life Magazine was meant for all, Ismailis as well as non Ismailis and non Muslims. Now compare this message or communication with FIRST ARTICLE OF PREAMBLE IT IS SAME. Imam has explained the basic tenets of Islam and Ismailism to follow.

NO WHERE IN THE FARMAN MADE AT MUMBAI ON 9TH NOVEMBER, 1967, IMAM HIMSELF HAD UTTERED THE WORDS THAT HE IS MALIKIN NAAS. Please don't misguide jamaits and youth. During that visit of India on many occasions Imam has used the phrase INSHA'ALLAH. I have checked in KIZ, in Precious Gems and in a Urdu translation by ITREB. Imam has not allowed any murid to twist, manipulate, induce or deduce farman for corrupt ideology. Imam's farmans are in simple English in comparison to public lectures. AQL E JUZ IS NOT ABOVE AQL E KUL.
You wrote it is not a public statement from your side to call Imam Ilahin Naas. But you already did. Your blasphemous statement is all over on internet
it is offensive and there can be repercussions.

[Admin]

Stop threatening us. We Ismailis, we are not weak as you shariatis. We have the Imam-e-Zaman with us.

A clown may be part of a circus but no person would take him seriously.

There is no way the debate between Shariatis and Batinis will be resolved here on this Forum. It has been going on since centuries. Let is be.