first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

[kmaherali]

Karim look what you have translated,
Alliyullah means, Ali the master of believers is from Allah.
Or,
I BEAR WITNESS THAT ALI , THE MASTER OF BELIEVERS IS FROM ALLAH.

This is what I have been saying and quoted 1964 farman of Hazar Imam, made at Karachi in which he said ALI IS FROM ALLAH.
Being an Ismaili we should have faith in KALIMAH E SHAHADAH.

Thanks for pointing that out.I was just explaining what the Shahada was as a declaration of faith and I must have therefore copy pasted the translation, but if I have done so it is not my translation and I would like to correct it as ALI IS ALLAH.

There is no such Farman that you are mentioning. At best I am thinking that it would have been a guideline for the translation for Dua which is read by non-Ismailis as well.

There has never been such a Farman read out in JK or published anywhere. On the other hand we have the Paris Conference guidelines published and we have Farman in which the Imam says he is Malikinaas, Illahinaas and Raabanaas which is published.

[ismaili103]

In the above farman you quoted, Imam said," but what it does to assist you to understand the blessings that ALLAH HAS GIVEN TO OUR JAMAIT AND OTHERS..". If Imam has been God he should have used the words' THE BLESSINGS WHICH I BESTOWED UPON YOU OR MY JAMAIT'. I have marked that Imam has been using The word ALLAH CONSTANTLY IN HIS FARMANS.

Beacuse Imam makes the Farman in the form of Pir.

BTW why Allah never said I and Me in Quran but Allah said Your Lord, Your Creator, Your Sustainer etc, is Allah refering to another Allah.

[shivaathervedi]

In the above farman you quoted, Imam said," but what it does to assist you to understand the blessings that ALLAH HAS GIVEN TO OUR JAMAIT AND OTHERS..". If Imam has been God he should have used the words' THE BLESSINGS WHICH I BESTOWED UPON YOU OR MY JAMAIT'. I have marked that Imam has been using The word ALLAH CONSTANTLY IN HIS FARMANS.

Beacuse Imam makes the Farman in the form of Pir.

BTW why Allah never said I and Me in Quran but Allah said Your Lord, Your Creator, Your Sustainer etc, is Allah refering to another Allah.

Allah has introduced Himself in Quran as Allah and not Imam and Imam has introduced himself as Imam and not Allah. Khaliq and Razzaq are his attributes.
Ismailis have got an easy formula; keep jumping from zahir to batin and batin to zahir, same way this statement is in pir's capacity and that statement is in Imam's capacity.
UNDERSTAND AND LEARN THE MEANING OF DU'A. WORDS SPEAK FOR THEM SELVES. In last part of Du'a we say, ALLAHUMA BI HAQQ I MUHAMMADINIL MUSTAFA WA ALIYYINIL MURTADHA WA FATIMAT I ZAHARA' WAL HASAN I WAL HUSSAIN. WE ARE PRAYING TO ALLAH. OR IN THE FIRST PART;
ALLAHUMA SAL I ALA MUHAMIDINIL MUSTAFA WA ALIYYINIL MURTADHAWA ALALA'IMATIL ATHAAR..... TILL END. READ AND UNDERSTAND THE MEANING THEN ARGUE.

[shivaathervedi]

Karim look what you have translated,
Alliyullah means, Ali the master of believers is from Allah.
Or,
I BEAR WITNESS THAT ALI , THE MASTER OF BELIEVERS IS FROM ALLAH.

This is what I have been saying and quoted 1964 farman of Hazar Imam, made at Karachi in which he said ALI IS FROM ALLAH.
Being an Ismaili we should have faith in KALIMAH E SHAHADAH.

Thanks for pointing that out.I was just explaining what the Shahada was as a declaration of faith and I must have therefore copy pasted the translation, but if I have done so it is not my translation and I would like to correct it as ALI IS ALLAH.

There is no such Farman that you are mentioning. At best I am thinking that it would have been a guideline for the translation for Dua which is read by non-Ismailis as well.

There has never been such a Farman read out in JK or published anywhere. On the other hand we have the Paris Conference guidelines published and we have Farman in which the Imam says he is Malikinaas, Illahinaas and Raabanaas which is published.

Please don't misguide the readers of this forum particularly youths. IMAM NEVER UTTERED THE WORDS HE IS MALIKINNAS,ILLAHINAAS, RABBINNAAS, this is your misinterpretation and deduction.
There is nothing wrong in DU'A IF NON ISMAILIS ARE READING IT. ON THE CONTRARY I SHOULD SAY THEY MUST BECAUSE DU'A'S TEXT EXPLAINS TRUE ISMAILISM.
Karim you have been alumnus at IIS. You were taught Arabic and sent (all students) to a Muslim Arabic country for refining Arabic. I think Kalimah words are not difficult and deep classic words to understand. You should have done on your own. Sorry yo write now Sheepishly you are changing your statement!!

[shivaathervedi]

I never got satisfactory answer on this forum " what is Noor"
Noor is attribute of Allah.
Kmaherali = Admin = Nuseri; are they 3 equal.

You have not read my post. I am repeating again.

The Qur'an says: Allah is the Noor
You said: Imam is the Noor

Therefore according to you and the Qur'an, Imam is Allah.

It is simple logic: If A = B and B = C then A=C

You mentioned two entities what about C? Who is this you are me.
Tree was noor, mount Sinai was noor, heavenly bodies are noor, you are noor I am noor, every paricle is noor. Therefore A=B, B=C, C=D,D=E, E=F and so on, one should keep figuring out and it is an endless counting.

[shivaathervedi]

You have quoted ONLY THE LAST HALF PARAGRAPH OF THE FIRST PART OF DU'A TO SERVE YOUR PURPOSE. Though I asked for the complete first part of Du'a. Please try again.
WHEN WORDS CHANGE LOT OF THINGS CHANGE.

I quoted the last paragraph because that was the only change. The rest of the first part is the same as the current Dua. No need to repeat the whole thing and wasting time.

For correction I have to waste my time on your behalf.
If rest of the part is same as in current Du'a then, please pay attention to the wordings prior to half paragraph you quoted.
ALLAHUMA SAL I ALA MUHAMMADINIL MUSTAFAWA ALA ALIYYINIL MURTADHA, WA ALAL AI'MATIL ATHAAR WA ALA HUJJATIL AMR SAHEBZ ZAMAN I WAL ASR IMAMINAL HADHIRIL MOUJUD MOWLANA SHAH KARIM AL HUSSAINI.

We are praying to ALLAH (ALLAHUMA) to shower his blessings on Muhammad, Ali, all pure Imams and on Shah karim al Hussaini.

[Admin]

Not everyone can understand the dichotomy of Zahir vs Batin which is at the base of Ismailisn. Even Imam can be understood as an Imam of a Masjid (there are dimes and dozens of those) or Imam as Noor (only One) depending of the level of understanding.

Nabiiyullah is Nabi OF Allah
Rassulullah is Rasul OF ALLAH
Aliyullah is ALI (Highest) OF Allah

Aliyullah is the Arabic translation of the Indian language Ali Sahi Allah whose closest meaning is Ali Real Allah, Ali True Allah, Ali is Allah...

Imam guides us through His Noor, this is what the Farman says.

The Essence guides us through the Pir-Allah

Noor Nama Nabi Muhammad Mustafa is a work preserved both in the Ismaili Community [iis has several manuscripts] and in the Ithnashri Community and is the subject of research presently in one of the American universities. I suppose the complete translation will come out next year. I came across one of its manuscript in our own Heritage Collection few weeks ago:

Here is the very interesting end of the work in one of the Khojki manuscript of which I have transcribed, below the image, the ending Kalima Pak which is the ending sentence of the work:



Ashaduan Laillahe illalaha, wa ashaduan Muhmadan Rasullillah, Ashaduan amir al momanine Ali sahi Allaha. [transcribd as is, commas added]

Now with all due respect, 40 pages of 100 subjects hidden under one thread that is supposed to discuss the Preamble of the Constitution ONLY does not serve any purpose so I will start moving posts to appropriate section. No one is going to go through 40 pages and try to find something relevant to the Constitution here. Some of the last posts will be moved either to Dua or to Noor or to Ali Allah discussions. So please move those discussion o to appropriate thread.

[ismaili103]

Allah has introduced Himself in Quran as Allah and not Imam and Imam has introduced himself as Imam and not Allah. Khaliq and Razzaq are his attributes.
Ismailis have got an easy formula; keep jumping from zahir to batin and batin to zahir, same way this statement is in pir's capacity and that statement is in Imam's capacity.
UNDERSTAND AND LEARN THE MEANING OF DU'A. WORDS SPEAK FOR THEM SELVES. In last part of Du'a we say, ALLAHUMA BI HAQQ I MUHAMMADINIL MUSTAFA WA ALIYYINIL MURTADHA WA FATIMAT I ZAHARA' WAL HASAN I WAL HUSSAIN. WE ARE PRAYING TO ALLAH. OR IN THE FIRST PART;
ALLAHUMA SAL I ALA MUHAMIDINIL MUSTAFA WA ALIYYINIL MURTADHAWA ALALA'IMATIL ATHAAR..... TILL END. READ AND UNDERSTAND THE MEANING THEN ARGUE.

Ismailies have got an easy formula, it means you Non-Ismaili got the hard formula, atlast you accept you are Non Ismaili.

You don't have any answer for my question thats why you wrote this long para which has nothing.

Just answer, why Allah never said I and Me in Quran instead Allah said your lord etc, I think Allah is refering to another Allah who is actually Sahi Allah and who is none other than Mowla Ali, ALI SAHI ALLAH.

[ismaili103]

You mentioned two entities what about C? Who is this you are me.
Tree was noor, mount Sinai was noor, heavenly bodies are noor, you are noor I am noor, every paricle is noor. Therefore A=B, B=C, C=D,D=E, E=F and so on, one should keep figuring out and it is an endless counting.

Yes you are right, Noor e Illahi is in every atom of the Universes. Its also in you and me, and you know what you and me can also become Allah, the only thing we have to do is recognize ourself who is nothing but Allah. Thats the teaching of Bait ul Khayal and Thats the teaching of Ismailism. [/quote]

[kmaherali]

You mentioned two entities what about C? Who is this you are me.

You don't read my post at all. There are three entities: Allah, Noor and Imam.

Quran says: Allah (A ) = Noor (B)
You said: Imam (C) = Noor (B)

Since A = B and C=B it follows that A = C.

[kmaherali]

Please don't misguide the readers of this forum particularly youths. IMAM NEVER UTTERED THE WORDS HE IS MALIKINNAS,ILLAHINAAS, RABBINNAAS, this is your misinterpretation and deduction.
There is nothing wrong in DU'A IF NON ISMAILIS ARE READING IT. ON THE CONTRARY I SHOULD SAY THEY MUST BECAUSE DU'A'S TEXT EXPLAINS TRUE ISMAILISM.
Karim you have been alumnus at IIS. You were taught Arabic and sent (all students) to a Muslim Arabic country for refining Arabic. I think Kalimah words are not difficult and deep classic words to understand. You should have done on your own. Sorry yo write now Sheepishly you are changing your statement!!

We have been through this before in your mazhar avtar. MHI said in his Farman:

"I would like any spiritual child who is here present, who attends religious night school, to answer to Me what is the meaning of Malikin naas. You know the Sura which says Kul A 'uzu bir Rabin naas,Elahin naas. What does Malikin naas mean? Which is the spiritual child here who can tell Me the meaning of Malikin naas?

(One spiritual child gave the meaning of "Malikin naas Master of the People The Imam "; Hazar Imam was very pleased )

Good, very good."

If the Imam himself says that he is Malikin naas, does it not imply from the Quranic Ayat that he is also Rabin naas (the Lord of the People) and Elahin naas (God of the People)?

There is nothing wrong with Dua being read by others. It is a statement of our beliefs and like the Preamble it is a zaheri document. In fact Dua was used as evidence in the court of law during the Haji Bibi case.

Since it serves as a zaheri document it has to be framed in a zaheri language which does not give offence to others. Hence we have Allahuma etc etc.

YOU seem to have very little understanding about the esoteric tariqah. Below is MHI's Farman explaining the difference between esoteric and exoteric faith:

"Do not forget that our branch of Islam is an esoteric branch of Islam. Esoteric means that what is written is there, but its meaning is not there to everyone. It is there to those who are part of our Jamat. And it is important, therefore, that if you learn parts of the Quran, you should be able to explain the esoteric meaning of those parts."(Bombay, India, Wednesday, November 22, 1967. (Karimabad))

Therefore Imam does not have to be explicit that he is illahi naas, it is implied by him being malikinaas. That is an esoteric way of explaining an esoteric concept.

I accept that I made an error about the translation. The correct translation is Ali is Allah.

[kmaherali]

Now with all due respect, 40 pages of 100 subjects hidden under one thread that is supposed to discuss the Preamble of the Constitution ONLY does not serve any purpose so I will start moving posts to appropriate section. No one is going to go through 40 pages and try to find something relevant to the Constitution here. Some of the last posts will be moved either to Dua or to Noor or to Ali Allah discussions. So please move those discussion o to appropriate thread.

The Preamble and our Dua are related, both serving as statements of our beliefs to the world. Hence discussion on Preamble has a bearing upon Dua and vice versa.

[Admin]

The Preamble and our Dua are related, both serving as statements of our beliefs to the world. Hence discussion on Preamble has a bearing upon Dua and vice versa.

True but the Forum would be much more useful if people could find all discussions about Dua in the Dua thread and all discussions about Ali-Allah in the Ali-Allah thread. The problem with 40 pages with more than one subject is that it does not do justice to any subject discussed herein.

I may be able to move and still have a "shadow" (mirror-copy) in this thread as if the posts were not moved, I will verify with the technician if this is easy or not.

[shivaathervedi]

Please don't misguide the readers of this forum particularly youths. IMAM NEVER UTTERED THE WORDS HE IS MALIKINNAS,ILLAHINAAS, RABBINNAAS, this is your misinterpretation and deduction.
There is nothing wrong in DU'A IF NON ISMAILIS ARE READING IT. ON THE CONTRARY I SHOULD SAY THEY MUST BECAUSE DU'A'S TEXT EXPLAINS TRUE ISMAILISM.
Karim you have been alumnus at IIS. You were taught Arabic and sent (all students) to a Muslim Arabic country for refining Arabic. I think Kalimah words are not difficult and deep classic words to understand. You should have done on your own. Sorry yo write now Sheepishly you are changing your statement!!

We have been through this before in your mazhar avtar. MHI said in his Farman:

"I would like any spiritual child who is here present, who attends religious night school, to answer to Me what is the meaning of Malikin naas. You know the Sura which says Kul A 'uzu bir Rabin naas,Elahin naas. What does Malikin naas mean? Which is the spiritual child here who can tell Me the meaning of Malikin naas?

(One spiritual child gave the meaning of "Malikin naas Master of the People The Imam "; Hazar Imam was very pleased )

Good, very good."

If the Imam himself says that he is Malikin naas, does it not imply from the Quranic Ayat that he is also Rabin naas (the Lord of the People) and Elahin naas (God of the People)?

There is nothing wrong with Dua being read by others. It is a statement of our beliefs and like the Preamble it is a zaheri document. In fact Dua was used as evidence in the court of law during the Haji Bibi case.

Since it serves as a zaheri document it has to be framed in a zaheri language which does not give offence to others. Hence we have Allahuma etc etc.

YOU seem to have very little understanding about the esoteric tariqah. Below is MHI's Farman explaining the difference between esoteric and exoteric faith:

"Do not forget that our branch of Islam is an esoteric branch of Islam. Esoteric means that what is written is there, but its meaning is not there to everyone. It is there to those who are part of our Jamat. And it is important, therefore, that if you learn parts of the Quran, you should be able to explain the esoteric meaning of those parts."(Bombay, India, Wednesday, November 22, 1967. (Karimabad))

Therefore Imam does not have to be explicit that he is illahi naas, it is implied by him being malikinaas. That is an esoteric way of explaining an esoteric concept.

I accept that I made an error about the translation. The correct translation is Ali is Allah.

MAZHAR is a very important word in Ismaili theology and philosophy.
Once again your above post is YOURS CUT AND PASTE.
My stand is Imam never uttered the words RUBBIN NAAS, MALIKIN NAAS, ILAHIN NAAS FOR HIMSELF.
Imam said, good, very good that was a 'SHABASI, encouragement for the kid who knew surah Naas. This is your deducing theory without footing. During same visits in India Imam used the words ISHA'ALLAH, THANKS ALLAH FOR HIS BLESSINGS DURING DEEDAR.

[shivaathervedi]

You mentioned two entities what about C? Who is this you are me.

You don't read my post at all. There are three entities: Allah, Noor and Imam.

Quran says: Allah (A ) = Noor (B)
You said: Imam (C) = Noor (B)

Since A = B and C=B it follows that A = C.

I read your post that's why I answered. Noor is attribute of ALLAH and not a separate entity. That's why I have been writing that Allah's Noor is Imam.
Let us understand your formula;
Gold=water, water=wood therefore wood=gold. These have different qualities.

[shivaathervedi]

You mentioned two entities what about C? Who is this you are me.
Tree was noor, mount Sinai was noor, heavenly bodies are noor, you are noor I am noor, every paricle is noor. Therefore A=B, B=C, C=D,D=E, E=F and so on, one should keep figuring out and it is an endless counting.

Yes you are right, Noor e Illahi is in every atom of the Universes. Its also in you and me, and you know what you and me can also become Allah, the only thing we have to do is recognize ourself who is nothing but Allah. Thats the teaching of Bait ul Khayal and Thats the teaching of Ismailism.

[/quote]


This time you have wrote a reasonable thing.
I agree;
KHUD RA SHANAS TA KHUDA RA SHANASI.

[shivaathervedi]

Not everyone can understand the dichotomy of Zahir vs Batin which is at the base of Ismailisn. Even Imam can be understood as an Imam of a Masjid (there are dimes and dozens of those) or Imam as Noor (only One) depending of the level of understanding.

Nabiiyullah is Nabi OF Allah
Rassulullah is Rasul OF ALLAH
Aliyullah is ALI (Highest) OF Allah

Aliyullah is the Arabic translation of the Indian language Ali Sahi Allah whose closest meaning is Ali Real Allah, Ali True Allah, Ali is Allah...

Imam guides us through His Noor, this is what the Farman says.

The Essence guides us through the Pir-Allah

Noor Nama Nabi Muhammad Mustafa is a work preserved both in the Ismaili Community [iis has several manuscripts] and in the Ithnashri Community and is the subject of research presently in one of the American universities. I suppose the complete translation will come out next year. I came across one of its manuscript in our own Heritage Collection few weeks ago:

Here is the very interesting end of the work in one of the Khojki manuscript of which I have transcribed, below the image, the ending Kalima Pak which is the ending sentence of the work:



Ashaduan Laillahe illalaha, wa ashaduan Muhmadan Rasullillah, Ashaduan amir al momanine Ali sahi Allaha. [transcribd as is, commas added]

Now with all due respect, 40 pages of 100 subjects hidden under one thread that is supposed to discuss the Preamble of the Constitution ONLY does not serve any purpose so I will start moving posts to appropriate section. No one is going to go through 40 pages and try to find something relevant to the Constitution here. Some of the last posts will be moved either to Dua or to Noor or to Ali Allah discussions. So please move those discussion o to appropriate thread.

You are wrong by writing ALLIYULLAH is the Arabic translation of the Indian language ALI SAHI ALLAH. Which Indian language? Readers of this Forum are not fools and idiots. Please mention the name of Indian language.
You wrote Nabiyullah is Nabi of Allah, Rasulullah is Rasul of Allah same way Aliyullah is Ali of Allah. When you are using the word "OF" means you are distinguishing between two entities. Please understand the Arabic grammar.
Can you mention the name of author and year of the book NOOR NAMA.

[Admin]

Katchi and Gujrati. Since you have the monopol of Wisdom, you give us the translation of Sahi from any martian languages that suits your interpretation.

Here is the reply for all your question. It will explain to you why I find it unecessary to reply to you and why you keep asking the same questions when so many people have replied to you. You will never understand - read why:

1945, July 20: The first “Ismaili Mission Conference” was held in the auditorium of the Aga Khan High School, Dar-es-Salaam to discuss the religious education and the training of the missionaries and teachers.

During his speech in the last session, Imam Sultan Muhammed Shah said, “As rightly said by one of our missionaries, Mr. Hamir Lakha, that with regard to religion you must never reason with people who have no religion. This is perfectly true because Islam and Ismailism are built on Iman and Momin.”

[nuseri]

To Admin:Ya Ali madad
this topic has no head or tail of Preamble and 80% of 43 pages are junk,you know it well.just lock this topic.
I am posting in other topic later.

[kmaherali]

[Imam said, good, very good that was a 'SHABASI, encouragement for the kid who knew surah Naas. This is your deducing theory without footing. During same visits in India Imam used the words ISHA'ALLAH, THANKS ALLAH FOR HIS BLESSINGS DURING DEEDAR.

So you are now saying that Imam said Shabasi even though the murid told a lie! That means the Imam encourages ignorance and darkness instead of enlightenment. That is not the role of the Imam according to the Preamble:

"The Imam's Ta'lim lights the murids' path to spiritual enlightenment and vision."

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/extra1.html

[kmaherali]

I read your post that's why I answered. Noor is attribute of ALLAH and not a separate entity. That's why I have been writing that Allah's Noor is Imam.
Let us understand your formula;
Gold=water, water=wood therefore wood=gold. These have different qualities.

If Noor is the attribute of Allah, how come the Qur'an says that Allah is the Light?

According to the verse of the Ginan: Imaanee Aa Jug Maa(n)he Janneeye http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22889 ; Noor is the symbol of the Essence (without attributes - Niraakaar):

ejee nur neeraakaar jaannajo, te aaj paratak dev kahevaay
tenne aap ichh-chhaaye upaavyaa, bhaai chaud bhavan soy......3

Gold is not water, wood is not water. This shear nonsense.

Know the Light (nur) to be formless, which today is called the Manifest
Lord (Imaam). He created out of His own desire, brother, the form and
structure of the fourteen universes.

[kmaherali]

To Admin:Ya Ali madad
this topic has no head or tail of Preamble and 80% of 43 pages are junk,you know it well.just lock this topic.
I am posting in other topic later.

Preamble is a very loaded statemnent. It took 30 revisions before it got finalized. It contains many important concepts such as our early history, revelation, Talim, Ta'wil, Imam's authority etc. Extensive discussion is warranted because it is the guiding document for our Jamati institutions and is confused as being the Farman by some.

You may want to read it at:

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/extra1.html

[shivaathervedi]

Katchi and Gujrati. Since you have the monopol of Wisdom, you give us the translation of Sahi from any martian languages that suits your interpretation.

Here is the reply for all your question. It will explain to you why I find it unecessary to reply to you and why you keep asking the same questions when so many people have replied to you. You will never understand - read why:

1945, July 20: The first “Ismaili Mission Conference” was held in the auditorium of the Aga Khan High School, Dar-es-Salaam to discuss the religious education and the training of the missionaries and teachers.

During his speech in the last session, Imam Sultan Muhammed Shah said, “As rightly said by one of our missionaries, Mr. Hamir Lakha, that with regard to religion you must never reason with people who have no religion. This is perfectly true because Islam and Ismailism are built on Iman and Momin.”

I know Kachhi and Gujrati as you do. For God sake explain me and readers where is the word SAHI implanted in the phrase ALIYULLAH.
Let me quote a farman of MSMS made at Karachi on Feb 18, 1950.
MSMS SAID," THIS DU'A I HAVE CORRECTED WITH MY HANDS AND THIS DU'A IS ACCORDING TO PRESENT (CHANGING) TIMES. THIS DU'A IS FOR PAKISTAN, HINDUSTAN (BHARAT) AND FOR AFRICAN JAMAITS".
MSMS, kARACHI, FEB 18, 1950.
In this Du'a the phrase aliyulla is used 11 times.
At the end of Du'a there is Kalimah shahadah to recited and that contains the words," WA ASHADU ANN ALIYYUN AMIRUL MU'MINEEN ALIYULLAH.

[shivaathervedi]

To Admin:Ya Ali madad
this topic has no head or tail of Preamble and 80% of 43 pages are junk,you know it well.just lock this topic.
I am posting in other topic later.

DUFFLI WALEY DAFFLI BAJHA.....
You have been part of this junk also.
Learn and understand meaning of Du'a and Preamble then take part in debate.

[shivaathervedi]

[Imam said, good, very good that was a 'SHABASI, encouragement for the kid who knew surah Naas. This is your deducing theory without footing. During same visits in India Imam used the words ISHA'ALLAH, THANKS ALLAH FOR HIS BLESSINGS DURING DEEDAR.

So you are now saying that Imam said Shabasi even though the murid told a lie! That means the Imam encourages ignorance and darkness instead of enlightenment. That is not the role of the Imam according to the Preamble:

"The Imam's Ta'lim lights the murids' path to spiritual enlightenment and vision."

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/extra1.html

Your first sentence does not suit you by writing you are NOW, the murid told lie, that means Imam encourages ignorance. I gave my assessment as you deduced the result. Yes Imam gives us ta'lim of worldly affairs as well as spiritual vision. I am debating to correct the wrong assertions.
By the way you did not answered my second portion of post. During the same visit Imam used the phrases INSHALLAH AND THANKS ALLAH FOR HIS BLESSINGS....DURING DEEDAR.
Please don't write these words he said in capacity of pir.

[shivaathervedi]

I read your post that's why I answered. Noor is attribute of ALLAH and not a separate entity. That's why I have been writing that Allah's Noor is Imam.
Let us understand your formula;
Gold=water, water=wood therefore wood=gold. These have different qualities.

If Noor is the attribute of Allah, how come the Qur'an says that Allah is the Light?

According to the verse of the Ginan: Imaanee Aa Jug Maa(n)he Janneeye http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/22889 ; Noor is the symbol of the Essence (without attributes - Niraakaar):

ejee nur neeraakaar jaannajo, te aaj paratak dev kahevaay
tenne aap ichh-chhaaye upaavyaa, bhaai chaud bhavan soy......3

Gold is not water, wood is not water. This shear nonsense.

Know the Light (nur) to be formless, which today is called the Manifest
Lord (Imaam). He created out of His own desire, brother, the form and
structure of the fourteen universes.

You gave example of AYAT E NOOR, please read the complete Ayat carefully ,
Allah says," wa yadhribullahu amsaal lin naas". Means Allah make forth PARABLES for men.
You wrote Gold is not water.... This shear nonsense. If you have right to give example from geometry, why I shall not from chemistry.
In above ginan can you explain what you mean by DEV and I see no where in couplet the word formless is used.

[shivaathervedi]

In the above farman you quoted, Imam said," but what it does to assist you to understand the blessings that ALLAH HAS GIVEN TO OUR JAMAIT AND OTHERS..". If Imam has been God he should have used the words' THE BLESSINGS WHICH I BESTOWED UPON YOU OR MY JAMAIT'. I have marked that Imam has been using The word ALLAH CONSTANTLY IN HIS FARMANS.

Beacuse Imam makes the Farman in the form of Pir.

BTW why Allah never said I and Me in Quran but Allah said Your Lord, Your Creator, Your Sustainer etc, is Allah refering to another Allah.

Allah has used the pronouns as I and WE in Quran. There are plenty of such Ayats, I shall give few examples; Rest you read Al Quran.
And when God said to angels, I will create a Vicegerent on earth....
Al Baqarah # 30.
He said, Indeed what I know you don't.
Al Baqarah # 30
Indeed WE have revealed this in the night of power.
Al Qadr # 1
And WE have put a bar in front of them and a bar behind them.....
Al Ya Seen # 9
When WE sent to them two messengers, they rejected them.....
Al Ya Seen # 14

[shivaathervedi]

ADMIN DO NOT BLAME ME, YOU AND OTHERS;

I am posting a paragraph of old Du'a available on your Heritage site.

There is no deity except God, Muhammad is the Apostle of God, the Commander of the Faithful is Ali -- who is from Allah; God is sufficient for us, the Most Excellent Protector and Most Excellent Lord and Most Excellent Helper. O Our Lord! we pray for forgiveness of our sins and to Thee is our eventual coming.
LOOK AT WORDS: ALI WHO IS FROM ALLAH.

[Admin]

I know Kachhi and Gujrati as you do. For God sake explain me and readers where is the word SAHI implanted in the phrase ALIYULLAH.
Let me quote a farman of MSMS made at Karachi on Feb 18, 1950.
MSMS SAID," THIS DU'A I HAVE CORRECTED WITH MY HANDS AND THIS DU'A IS ACCORDING TO PRESENT (CHANGING) TIMES. THIS DU'A IS FOR PAKISTAN, HINDUSTAN (BHARAT) AND FOR AFRICAN JAMAITS".
MSMS, kARACHI, FEB 18, 1950.
In this Du'a the phrase aliyulla is used 11 times.
At the end of Du'a there is Kalimah shahadah to recited and that contains the words," WA ASHADU ANN ALIYYUN AMIRUL MU'MINEEN ALIYULLAH.

i have asked you to give your translation of Ali sahi Allah. I have stated that Aliyuallah means the same as Ali Sahi Allah. Where is your translation of the word "Sahi"

Are you saying that

1) the new Dua was sent in 1950 and not 1956?
2) Which farman book are you quoting from?
3) Are you saying that as very Farman-bardari momin the Pakistan jamat after hearing this in 1950, started immediately reciting the new Dua?
4)And is the 1950 new Dua version which you claim exist say Lizikrihis sujood or Wataati since Imam has corrected it with his "own hand"?

Now I am expecting you to reply clearly to each of these question which arise from your post.

[shivaathervedi]

I know Kachhi and Gujrati as you do. For God sake explain me and readers where is the word SAHI implanted in the phrase ALIYULLAH.
Let me quote a farman of MSMS made at Karachi on Feb 18, 1950.
MSMS SAID," THIS DU'A I HAVE CORRECTED WITH MY HANDS AND THIS DU'A IS ACCORDING TO PRESENT (CHANGING) TIMES. THIS DU'A IS FOR PAKISTAN, HINDUSTAN (BHARAT) AND FOR AFRICAN JAMAITS".
MSMS, kARACHI, FEB 18, 1950.
In this Du'a the phrase aliyulla is used 11 times.
At the end of Du'a there is Kalimah shahadah to recited and that contains the words," WA ASHADU ANN ALIYYUN AMIRUL MU'MINEEN ALIYULLAH.

i have asked you to give your translation of Ali sahi Allah. I have stated that Aliyuallah means the same as Ali Sahi Allah. Where is your translation of the word "Sahi"

Are you saying that

1) the new Dua was sent in 1950 and not 1956?
2) Which farman book are you quoting from?
3) Are you saying that as very Farman-bardari momin the Pakistan jamat after hearing this in 1950, started immediately reciting the new Dua?
4)And is the 1950 new Dua version which you claim exist say Lizikrihis sujood or Wataati since Imam has corrected it with his "own hand"?

Now I am expecting you to reply clearly to each of these question which arise from your post.

First you analyse your sentence. You wrote," Aliyullah is the Arabic translation of Indian language Ali sahi Allah. Pay attention to your sentence. I replied you that there is no word SAHI implanted in the phrase Aliyullah used in Du'a. The meaning of sahi in Arabic is SAHIHUN with arabic alphabet SUAD, like S' in saheb. The word sahihun is no where found in Du'a. Learn Arabic grammar and then enlighten your like minded.
1. I have quoted about old Du'a. I have that Du'a booklet with 8 ginans in my possession AND THAT BOOKLET CONTAINED THE FARMAN WHICH I QUOTED. The booklet was printed in 1950 by Ismailia Association west Pakistan( at that time there was East Pakistan which is now Bangla Desh and present Pakistan which was called West Pakistan).
2. The farman is printed with that Du'a book.
3. Absurd, it is not about new Du'a. But the old du'a which you have posted on your Heritage site.
4. When I am writing about old Du'a, obviously there is no need of discussing lizikrhi.
Now read my earlier post addressed to you; THE TRANSLATION YOU HAVE POSTED ON YOUR SITE ABOUT THE PHRASE ALIYULLAH AND ITS MEANING THAT "ALI IS FROM ALLAH".
IN URDU THERE IS A PROVERB; AURU(N) KO NASIHAT KHUD MIAN FAZIHAT.