first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:53 am

nuseri wrote: he has told to become like great Pirs ,dai and prophets and took some names and also said that they were bold and courageous and took a
DIFFERENT PATH.( stop)
they became part of our history,traditions and tariqa.
What is this Different path?
I need answer on it?

They took the path of tariqat with heavy concentration of Ibadat/bandagi which was different than the rest, but they also said their Dua/Namaz. They did not give up the fundamentals.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:13 am

To Kmaherali:Ya Ali Madad.

According to me they were hardcore Haqiqatis who took path of Marifat.
they never mentioned how and how much of quantity to perform prayers physically in their work/poem/doctrines.

Does the IIS have refresher courses for their Alumni's ?

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:43 am

nuseri wrote: According to me they were hardcore Haqiqatis who took path of Marifat.
they never mentioned how and how much of quantity to perform prayers physically in their work/poem/doctrines.

THE FOURTEEN JEWELS OF PIR SHAMS

10. The tenth Jewel: Never to neglect any of the observances of the three fixed times of the day. Prayers are like tithes ordered by the Lord.

http://www.ismaili.net/granths/b5.html

Anant Akhado:

Aashaajee Sandhyaa velaa tame mat koi chuko
eh chhe Gur-nee endhaannee jee
ehi velaa tam-ne deedhee
keedhee te deen nee baaree..............Haree anant..252

Oh Lord Don't miss(the prayers) at the time of the command
This is the sign(seal) of the Guide(upon your soul)
That time is given to you
and it is the gateway to(window of) religion
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Beejee velaa ehee-j jaanno
raat ghaddee chh gai jaanno jee
te to baari dargaa tannee
Gur thee thao husheeyaar................Haree anant..253

Oh Lord Know the second period as
the six ghadis( approximately 2 hours) after the sunset
It is the gateway to gathering(of knowledge)
so be intelligent with the help of the Guide
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Treejee sandhyaa paachhalee jaanno
khatt ghaddee paramaanno jee
eh baaree sarag nee bhanneeye
leve Gur-ne haath.......................Haree anant..254

Oh Lord The third time of the command is at the end of the night
It occurs six ghadis before the dawn
Understand it as the gateway to heaven
It is obtained with the help of the Guide(isme-azam)
Haree You are eternal...

The 3 times prayer are fundamental in our Tariqah.

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:16 pm

The following farman was made in a religious gathering of missionaries, Ismailia association officials and leadership of pakistan at Karachi in 1964. Hazar Imam was explaining the meaning of ALIULLAH. Hazar Imam said;

" Yes, Firman on that was very clear from my grandfather. It was not ALY ALLAH, it was ALYULLAH, which has different meaning, which means that ALY IS FROM ALLAH, DON'T CONFUSE IT. This means that the SPIRIT OF ALY and the NOOR OF ALY IS FROM ALLAH, and this is the belief which the jamaits has; this is the true conception of NOOR, so that we can look into this point, alright".
Further Imam said;
" We are established in 22 countries and we do not have the necessary number of trained missionaries, it is the duty of the local people to see that EVERY WORD of our prayer is understood by every momin of the jamait such as for instance KUL HU WALLAHU AHAD. THIS SHOULD BE DONE WITHOUT HURTING THE FEELINGS OF MY ELDERLY SPIRITUAL CHILDREN...."

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:34 pm

ismaili103 wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:
ismaili103 wrote:Imam and Pir never make any mistakes because they are not Humans, they just take human form to guide us( humans ) .

And those Ismailis who think they are human are the same who do mourn in 9 and 10 muharram.

In one of his interview when asked, have you committed any mistakes?
Hazar Imam replied "YES".
And I'm sure after listen that answer in the interview many ismailis faith gone weak, thats how Imam examine our faith, for whole world he is human who make mistakes but for us he is Manifestation oh Allah OR He is Allah.

BTW give reference of that interview.

With reference to SUNDAY TIMES, interview of Hazar Imam dated Dec 12, 1965.
Question asked was; Do you feel you have made any mistakes?
Imam replied; YES OF COURSE I HAVE.

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:40 pm

ismaili103 wrote:
You wrote Ginans are always symbolic, this means what ever mentioned in ginans ie stories, events, numbers like 36 kror, 12 kror, ashtt kror. dus avtar are all symbolic. I do not understand that after 500 years from now and then how the numbers 124000 will become 180000 or other way round. 700/800 years passed Still the numbers are there in recently published ginan books.
Obviously numbers are symbolic.

Imam Sultan Mohd Shah had said in his farman that there are 50000 Adam came.

Pirs uses numbers only to tell us that there are not only 10 avatars came , 77 patras came or 124000 prophet came, but from the begining of the time Imamat and Piratan ( Prophethood) was there and thats why Pir doesn't mentioned the exact number of the Imam and Prophets came because people at that time could not able to u derstand those numbers because of no advancement in science and technology.

[/quote]

You wrote," Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah had said in his farman that there are 50000 Adam came".

Please quote the date and place of farman made.

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:53 pm

Admin wrote:Obviously in Interviews, he will give human answers else everyone would be Ismaili. As Imam said, he does not want quantity, he prefers quality

Do you really expect him to tell the interviewer that he is God? Does the interviewer or his reader even know the meaning of "God".

Its not going to happen. Not in your lifetime.

Quality of what, iman or wordly affairs.
Imam never clearly said he is God. If some persons consider him, I don't mind, but official stand of Aiglemont and ITREBS which represent him say he is not God but he is Noor OF God. Why he is scared to give such statement, the reason is because he is not. He is Noor of Allah.

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:06 pm

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:In one of his interview when asked, have you committed any mistakes?
Hazar Imam replied "YES".
When you identified yourself as mazhar, you raised the same issue which was addressed in the beginning of this thread. The answer is given in pages 1 and 2 of this thread.

Few days back I was reading the poetry of SINDH's second great poet after Shah Latif. He is next to RUDUKI in sayings of couplets almost a million. His poetry is in many languages. I want to quote one of his couplet suitable for me.

KO KIYA(N) CHAWEY, KO KIYA(N) CHAWEY
AAU(N) JO I AAHIYAA(N) SO I AAHIYAA(N)

Some call me this some call me that but I am what I am.

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:15 pm

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: AGA KHAN IS A WORLDLY TITLE. While dealing with non Ismailis, or signing agreements is fine. My question is related to jamaiti matters. Talika or farman is related to his spiritual children and that is coming from Imam e Zaman.
I think the Imam is being consistent as his talika messages are sometimes read by others as well. Hence the same signature implying the same person. Also it can raise legal issues using different signatures.

So what! He is Hazar Imam and his name is Karim Al Husaini. It has nothing to do with legal matters. My question is related to jamaiti and spiritual matters. He is our Hazar Imam. Why Imam should be concerned while addressing his spiritual children, I don't think so, any Ismaili will take any legal action if he writes YOURS AFFECTIONATELY HAZAR IMAM.

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:18 pm

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: I do not understand that after 500 years from now and then how the numbers 124000 will become 180000 or other way round. 700/800 years passed Still the numbers are there in recently published ginan books.
The numbers themselves will not change but their meaning and significance will change. Science today is telling us that time itself is relative to the frame of reference, it is not absolute. That frame will change for sure.

You keep changing your statements to prove your point. Do you believe after 100 years 124000 will be equal to 180000 scientifically.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:29 pm

About 50000 Adam, I listen it in one waez thats why I don't have any reference but in search of references I found it.

“Do you think that this is the only world that God created? That He did not create other races of humanity than you? Certainly not, for He has created thousands upon thousands of worlds with thousands upon thousands of Adams, and you dwell upon only the last of these worlds, in the midst of the last of these Adamic humanities.”

- Imam Muhammad al-Baqir, quoted in (Mohammad Ali Amir al-Moezzi, The Divine Guide in Early Shiism, pp. 168)

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Sat Jul 16, 2016 11:57 pm

shivaathervedi wrote:
kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:In one of his interview when asked, have you committed any mistakes?
Hazar Imam replied "YES".
When you identified yourself as mazhar, you raised the same issue which was addressed in the beginning of this thread. The answer is given in pages 1 and 2 of this thread.
Few days back I was reading the poetry of SINDH's second great poet after Shah Latif. He is next to RUDUKI in sayings of couplets almost a million. His poetry is in many languages. I want to quote one of his couplet suitable for me.

KO KIYA(N) CHAWEY, KO KIYA(N) CHAWEY
AAU(N) JO I AAHIYAA(N) SO I AAHIYAA(N)

Some call me this some call me that but I am what I am.

Sorry, forgot to mention the name of poet whom I quoted. The couplet I mentioned is in Sindhi Language. His name is SACHAL SARMAST. His famous poetry book is DIWAN E AASHKAAR in Persian. That book is dubbed as divine poetry mostly in praise of Prophet Muhammad and Mowla Ali.

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:36 pm

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: LIZIKRIHS SUJUD was introduced in African Jamaits and was abruptly with drawn in 1956.
No. What hapened is that in 1956 Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah sent Shah Karim with a TALIKA to the Madagascar Jamat to recite himself the new Dua replacing the old one for the whole world. India and Pakistan Ismaili Association REFUSED to follow. Syrian Jamat followed in half in the Lizikrihi sujood Jamatkhanas while the other half followed the Ismaili Association for Pakistan (under which administration Syria Jamat was) in the wa taati Jamatkhana, even families were split.

I learned the Dua with Lizikrihis Sujood from 1966 to 1968 (took me a long time) and it changed at the end of 1968 or beginning of 1969.

So when you say it was "Abrutly withdrawn in 1956", you certainly do not have any idea of what you are saying. Changes where brought hap-hazard, one sentence at a time, some times reversed few weeks later and then the Dua became as we are reciting today sometime in 1969 without any Talika to reverse the Dua send with Talika.

Please do not mix the subject here.

There is a discussion on this in the Forum under the link below.

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... ujood+tati

Just for understanding;
You wrote India and Pakistan Ismailia Associations REFUSED to follow farman of Imam for introducing new Du'a meant for ismaili world in 1956.
I can not digest your this sentence. How come Presidents and members of Ismaila Associations of these 2 countries refused Imam's order. I think MSMS
being as JALALI IMAM should have fired and punished disobedient leadership. If not was Imam so weak that leadership of that time refused to follow order!!!
Du'a was written by Professor Jawad Al Musqati on instructions of MSMS. The Du'a prepared by Professor Jawad was reviewed by Imam few times and approved it in 1956. Did Imam knew not the grammar mistakes and where to raise hands? These kept changing in later years and silently corrected.
The new Du'a which is recited today was started through out Ismaili world in 1959/60 and not in 1969.
Now important question; I inquired about the printed copy with LIZIKRIHI wordings at ITREB library Karachi but they do not have. Now as you wrote that you learnt the Du'a with LIZIKRIHI wordings, Ismaila Associations of Kenya/Tanzania/Uganda should have printed the Du'a copies for learning purpose. If you have that copy available, Can you please scan the very FIRST COMPLETE PART OF DU'A AND POST. Also the year and month of publication, thanks.

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 2:55 pm

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:MINKA QUWWATI WA ANTA ISMATI YA RABAL AALAMEEN. That's why in a special message to jamaits of India in Nov 2015, Imam gave hidayat to recite name of ALLAH during 24 hours. This is what your Imam says if you believe him.
Do you remember we used to recite : LI ZIKRI HIS SUJOOD which was changed to ALLAHUMA LAKA SUJUDI WA TAATI. This is because it was offensive to others, not that it was wrong.

MSMS made the Farman:

"Just as you see us physically, in the same way consider us to be ever-present and remember us while sitting, standing and walking. Your love and affection is always in our hearts and (prayers)." (Zanzibar Aug 18, 1905)

So when the present Imam is saying remember Allah it is less offensive but it does not matter in essence whether you remember the Imam or Allah - they are one.

You recited Du'a with wordings LIZIKRIHI..., you may have a booklet of that Du'a. Can you scan and post the first complete part of Du'a including the words Lizikrihi with meaning. Thanks.
According to Islam and Ismaili faith word ALLAH is on top and attribute names comes after. We start Du'a with BISMILLAHIR RAHMANIR RAHIM.
THE WORD ALLAH COMES FIRST FOLLOWED BY RAHMAN AND RAHIM.

Post by **Admin** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:32 pm

shivaathervedi wrote: Du'a was written by Professor Jawad Al Musqati on instructions of MSMS. The Du'a prepared by Professor Jawad was reviewed by Imam few times and approved it in 1956. Did Imam knew not the grammar mistakes and where to raise hands? These kept changing in later years and silently corrected.
The new Du'a which is recited today was started through out Ismaili world in 1959/60 and not in 1969..

I don't know in what world you are living and I will not waste time with this. When we put online several editions with Lizikrihi Sujood of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah's time [1956] and of Imam Shah Karim's time [1966] , you will read them at that time.

Al-Masquti only made some propositions, no need to exaggerate his role in the making of the Arabic Dua which was finalised in Syria, not in Pakistan.

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:15 pm

Admin wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: Du'a was written by Professor Jawad Al Musqati on instructions of MSMS. The Du'a prepared by Professor Jawad was reviewed by Imam few times and approved it in 1956. Did Imam knew not the grammar mistakes and where to raise hands? These kept changing in later years and silently corrected.
The new Du'a which is recited today was started through out Ismaili world in 1959/60 and not in 1969..
I don't know in what world you are living and I will not waste time with this. When we put online several editions with Lizikrihi Sujood of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah's time [1956] and of Imam Shah Karim's time [1966] , you will read them at that time.

Al-Masquti only made some propositions, no need to exaggerate his roleinthe
making of the Arabic Dua which was finalised in Syria, not in Pakistan.

Your attitude is that you are right and others are wrong. You are ill informed about the new Du'a. Jawad Al musqati was Professor at Karachi University when he wrote Du'a on orders of MSMS. This was not written in Syria. If that was written in Syria there should not have been grammar mistakes when it was first published. About 14/15 years back I talked to an elder relative of Professor Jawad on this subject who knew the back ground.
In India and Pakistan the new Du'a was started in around 1960 and not 1966.
I asked if you have booklet of 1956 version of Du'a, post the FIRST COMPLETE PART WITH MEANING for general information of readers, and if not, write I do not have, not a biggi. You are not obliged to waste your time, just sit tight and don't respond.

Post by **Admin** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:57 pm

shivaathervedi wrote: I asked if you have booklet of 1956 version of Du'a, post the FIRST COMPLETE PART WITH MEANING for general information of readers, and if not, write I do not have

I have it and will post it in complete and in several editions when I post all other tens of thousands of scans which will be posted in the future.

Have you read the Talika sent with the new Dua? If not, on which basis are you saying that your Ismailia Association did not do NaFarmani by not following the Talika?

Now, Dua old and new is discussed in the Dua thread. NOT HERE.

TO ALL: FROM NOW ON ALL POST WICH ARE NOT RESPECTING THE THREAD WILL BE MOVED OR DELETED. THAT IS VALID FOR ALL THREADS.

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:27 pm

nuseri wrote:Ya Ali Madad.
I wish to from members:
1.Is the word Sharia.Shariat mentioned in thr preamble?
2.How many times MHI used that word in his speeches or farmans?
3.does our community have any shari board,council.commitee?
we ismailis start at tariqat level.
our refined Dua along with ginans/qasidas.ibaadat/tabish and farmans form
collective part of our TARIQA.

a word which sounded as holy few decades back and now is looked down with fear and suspision.
Just yesterday re acting to attacks in Nice,France.ex speaker of the house is USA Mr Gingrich said,
all muslims must be t roughly checked and if they follow sharia laws ,then they should be deported from USA.
he has equated ideology and acts of sharia to TERRORISM.
few decades from from now this word called Guess what????
we thanks MHI that this word does not come in ismaili tariqa currently.
only non Ismaili try to push this word in this forum.
what pirs said was 700 years back when target audience needed sharia as base.
we are blessed SOULS and promoted to be born in tariqa.
if there is airflight route from India to USA.one need compulsarily need go via land route or sea route now.
there was no airplanes 700 year backs.
as land/sea route is bypassed ,in same wat bypassed the sharia and start from tariqa level .we are told to look upward and move downwards.
refined dua is a part of tariqa.

to kmaherali:Ya ali madad.
I asked one word answer and NOT any extract of farmans. these are few pages of 4-5 books ,there are other farmans of MHI which impress upon me.
I do accept that farman.
In a Farman by imam SMS.( wording changed).
he has told to become like great Pirs ,dai and prophets and took some names and also said that they were bold and courageous and took a
DIFFERENT PATH.( stop)
they became part of our history,traditions and tariqa.
What is this Different path?
I need answer on it?

toIsmaili103 : Ya Ali madad.
Please the incident of girl asking question to MHI with place and year.I would be interesting to know that.
your explaination of the word AgaKhan was over stated and you may have got carried away in that.

The root letters of Shariyah is shara' from which is Shaaria' means way, path,
siraat, punth, raasta. Shariyah IS NOT confined to only namaz, zakat, hujj but it is a way of life including religious affairs and ETHICAL VALUES. If you are saying Du'a, paying Dasond, attend majalis, perform eid namaz, juma namaz, janazah namaz or recitation of nikah are all acts of Shariyah. If you rejecting, neglecting, or not performing these acts means you are not an Ismail. A person who do not recite Du'a and rejecting it is not an Ismail.
Looks like you are a follower of Newt Gingrich. His faith is Jesus Christ is son of God. What is your opinion about Imam. Gingrich is against Islam even when he was speaker of congress. He is not a just person. Let me give an example; When he was speaker, fired his secretary just because at that time 20 years back when she was a school teacher she discussed Hitler in class room. He fired her under pressure from a strong lobby of a community.
Shariyah is not terrorism. Let me ask those non Muslims who bombed or are bombing innocent persons including kids, women, and elderly practice what kind of shariyah, Is that also be called shariyah?
Yoy wrote," We are told to look upward and move downward". What an exelent idea!! Look upward and move downward so that all shall fall in a ditch and break bones. Is this a kind of your shariyah rule?

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:21 am

shivaathervedi wrote:Why he is scared to give such statement, the reason is because he is not. He is Noor of Allah.

Imam being God is a butuni concept, hence he cannot give such a statement in a zaheri context. I mentioned the Farman made in Dar es Salaam, about not giving offence. A statement like that can give offence to others.

However the Paris Conference is quite clear that he is the Mazhar. Nasir Khustaw has explained that Mazhar/Hujjat is equivalent to God.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:43 am

shivaathervedi wrote: You recited Du'a with wordings LIZIKRIHI..., you may have a booklet of that Du'a. Can you scan and post the first complete part of Du'a including the words Lizikrihi with meaning. Thanks.
According to Islam and Ismaili faith word ALLAH is on top and attribute names comes after. We start Du'a with BISMILLAHIR RAHMANIR RAHIM.
THE WORD ALLAH COMES FIRST FOLLOWED BY RAHMAN AND RAHIM.

I have the Dua booklet published by the then Ismailia Association of Tanzania in 1967. The following phrase and translation is from it.

Was ala Huj-jatil Amri, Sahibiz zamani wal asri Imaminal hazirul maujood, Moulana Shah Karim al-Huseini li-zikrihis-sujood:

And on the Evidence of Thy Authority, The Lord of the Age, our Present Imam, Moulana Shah Karim al-Husayni, to Whose Name prostration is due.

It is quite clear that the Imam is the one to whom prostration is due hence he is Allah. Apparently that would give offence and it appears to have been replaced, but that does not mean that the concept itself has changed!

Admin,

Anything to do with the status of the Imam is applicable here because that is the issue raised about the Preamble by Mazhar or whatever he calls himself now.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 2:30 am

shivaathervedi wrote:He is Noor of Allah.

Qur'an states: Allahu nuru samawati wal ardh

Meaning:

Allah is the Light (Noor) of the heavens and the earth.

Hence Noor = Allah = Imam

It is all a matter of twisting words not to give offence.

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:46 pm

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:Why he is scared to give such statement, the reason is because he is not. He is Noor of Allah.
Imam being God is a butuni concept, hence he cannot give such a statement in a zaheri context. I mentioned the Farman made in Dar es Salaam, about not giving offence. A statement like that can give offence to others.

However the Paris Conference is quite clear that he is the Mazhar. Nasir Khustaw has explained that Mazhar/Hujjat is equivalent to God.

kmaherali

Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 12998

PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 1:15 am Post subject: Reply with quote
Dual purpose of education in Islam

So education in Islam has a dual purpose - it is not only a worldly context but it is also a spiritual context. And in our Tariqah, the intellect is a fundamental component of the faith that we practise. So I say to my spiritual children: do not look at education only in terms of what it brings you in worldly opportunity, but what it does to assist you to understand the blessings that Allah has given our Jamat and others. (Mumbai, India, 25 September, 2013)

In the above farman you quoted, Imam said," but what it does to assist you to understand the blessings that ALLAH HAS GIVEN TO OUR JAMAIT AND OTHERS..". If Imam has been God he should have used the words' THE BLESSINGS WHICH I BESTOWED UPON YOU OR MY JAMAIT'. I have marked that Imam has been using The word ALLAH CONSTANTLY IN HIS FARMANS.

Also you have quoted Nasir khusraw that the Mazhar/Hujjat is equivalent to God. Can you write that particular paragraph in persian or give the name of the book by Nasir including page and paragraph #.

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 6:59 pm

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote: You recited Du'a with wordings LIZIKRIHI..., you may have a booklet of that Du'a. Can you scan and post the first complete part of Du'a including the words Lizikrihi with meaning. Thanks.
According to Islam and Ismaili faith word ALLAH is on top and attribute names comes after. We start Du'a with BISMILLAHIR RAHMANIR RAHIM.
THE WORD ALLAH COMES FIRST FOLLOWED BY RAHMAN AND RAHIM.
I have the Dua booklet published by the then Ismailia Association of Tanzania in 1967. The following phrase and translation is from it.

Was ala Huj-jatil Amri, Sahibiz zamani wal asri Imaminal hazirul maujood, Moulana Shah Karim al-Huseini li-zikrihis-sujood:

And on the Evidence of Thy Authority, The Lord of the Age, our Present Imam, Moulana Shah Karim al-Husayni, to Whose Name prostration is due.

It is quite clear that the Imam is the one to whom prostration is due hence he is Allah. Apparently that would give offence and it appears to have been replaced, but that does not mean that the concept itself has changed!

Admin,

Anything to do with the status of the Imam is applicable here because that is the issue raised about the Preamble by Mazhar or whatever he calls himself now.

You have quoted ONLY THE LAST HALF PARAGRAPH OF THE FIRST PART OF DU'A TO SERVE YOUR PURPOSE. Though I asked for the complete first part of Du'a. Please try again.
WHEN WORDS CHANGE LOT OF THINGS CHANGE.

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:08 pm

kmaherali wrote:
shivaathervedi wrote:He is Noor of Allah.
Qur'an states: Allahu nuru samawati wal ardh

Meaning:

Allah is the Light (Noor) of the heavens and the earth.

Hence Noor = Allah = Imam

It is all a matter of twisting words not to give offence.

I never got satisfactory answer on this forum " what is Noor"
Noor is attribute of Allah.
Kmaherali = Admin = Nuseri; are they 3 equal.

shivaathervedi · Post by **shivaathervedi** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:18 pm

JUST A REMINDER TO KMAHERALI, ADMIN AND OTHERS BY SHIVA;

kmaherali

Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 12998

PostPosted: 18 May 2009 04:17 am Post subject: Re: Hazrat Muhammad And Ginans Reply with quote
prince_visram wrote:

I was just wondering what is the "Kalma". Thank you.

SHAHADA is the religious expression by which we declare our faith in Allah, His Prophet and the Imam.

Shahada is also called 'KALIMAH'. The Shahada is:
LA ILAHA ILL-ALLAH, MUHAMMAD-UN RASULU-LLAH, ALIYYUN AMIRUL MU'MINEEN 'ALIYYULLAH.

This is recited in the second part of our Holy Du'a. 'La ilaha ill-Allah' means 'THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH'. 'Muhammad-un Rasulu-llah' means 'MUHAMMAD IS THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH'. 'Aliyyun Amirul Mutmineen 'Aliyyullah' means 'ALI, THE MASTER OF BELIEVERS, IS FROM ALLAH'.

When we recite the Shahada after the Tasbih, we add the words
'ASHADU ANNA' and say it as follows:
ASHADU ANNA LA ILAHA ILL-ALLAH,
ASHADU ANNA MUHAMMAD-UN RASULU-LLAH,
ASHADU ANNA AMIRUL MU'MINEEN 'ALIYYULLAH.

This means:

I BEAR WITNESS THAT THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH
I BEAR WITNESS THAT MUHAMMAD IS THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH I BEAR WITNESS THAT ALI, THE MASTER OF BELIEVERS, IS FROM ALLAH.

Karim look what you have translated,
Alliyullah means, Ali the master of believers is from Allah.
Or,
I BEAR WITNESS THAT ALI , THE MASTER OF BELIEVERS IS FROM ALLAH.

This is what I have been saying and quoted 1964 farman of Hazar Imam, made at Karachi in which he said ALI IS FROM ALLAH.
Being an Ismaili we should have faith in KALIMAH E SHAHADAH.

Post by **Admin** » Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:43 pm

shivaathervedi wrote:JUST A REMINDER TO KMAHERALI, ADMIN AND OTHERS BY SHIVA; I BEAR WITNESS THAT ALI, THE MASTER OF BELIEVERS, IS FROM ALLAH.
This is what I have been saying and quoted 1964 farman of Hazar Imam, made at Karachi in which he said ALI IS FROM ALLAH..

There is no such Farman and you have been told and you keep repeating this lie. Do you really think that by repeating this lie again and again it will become a truth?

Admin

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:18 am

Ya Ali Madad.
there are 3 pars in this postings
first.
any farman starts with address and greeting with signature of MHI in the end.
they if witnessed by many many a close statement then.
Is the copy printed avbl anywhere.
MHI did hinted on interpration to tariqat angle on few words or lines.
as in that time Aga khan foundation was being planned and in pakistan there was a movement to declare Ismailis as non muslims such as ahmediyas.
our kalima interpretation does amuses,annoy and angers non ismailis as they have half cooked shahada.( not understood by many,a source of disaster in world now).
if at all any statement of MHI is there ,is it tampered by a member of illrepute in putting it. up here
anyway the official line of tariqa board presentation say Aliuallah as
Ali is from Allah. that is tariqat line,haqiqat of same is different is different.

Part 2
to solve any problem on has to break and deeply understand it.
farman of Hz Ali.
I am the creator.
of Aga ali shah Datar.
Ali thi allah.Allah tej ALI.
allah is from Ali and allah that only is ALI.
imam open ups from from 1964 to 2016.
he has said.
he is bearer of noor.
mazar Dith e Illahi.
spritiual father of humaity.
imamt is beyond concept .( same used for allah)
Noor of ALI is above everything else.(a farman in UK in 1983???.)
with 1+0=1.
the 1 on the left is from 1 on the right and same way 1 on the right is from 1 on the left.
the status of one does not change.
observation could change to cover up.
wherever wat way 1 remains 1.
if one say water is from clouds.
if proper study is done so is cloud from vapours of sea water.
our tariqa board is toeing a tariqat line,that MHI siad to know dua.
which has ayats of allah with physical features,
face ,hand .etc.( wajihu,yaduallah.)
so based on
covering aliuallah.
farmans of Hz ALI.
farman Aga ali datar.
refernce made by MHI upon his status in different times.
for ground level ali may sound from allah ,or Allah from ali is the same.same same..

part 3.
i feel the common factor of myslef,admin and kmaherali are from clan of nuseri.
Nuseri disobeyed physical order and farmans of Hz ALI then 70 time.
made personally to him
at tariqat level.
he kept saying to HZ ALI you are God.
he stood by faith within him.and disobeyed physical order of same ALI to him at tariqat level.
please if anyone can post this farman on nuseri by imam aga ali shah,Imam SMS.
so admin =kmaherali=nuseri does stand true at haqaqiati angle.
I assume they also feel like Nuseri in spirit by being bold in the forum read by few hundred.
there are 4 level to read,understand any word,words or line.
a debate is being developed.
have the muslims mis understood the holy book and prophet and the ground reality of today time.
lower level muslims( orthodox sharyatis)do not form even a part of Islam id definition understood properly.
they can or will be seen in millions as curse and cancer on earth.
now they are presumed as misfit is societies,militant or future terrorist.

To Admin/nuseri clan member:
for future make that all posts are vetted 24 hours before it appears.
or lt of damage can happen on real time basis.
Pakistan is on country even tariqat line annoy and angers the haters.
so to heed to Imams statement or tariq board or leaders there may be good for jamat.
few incident have cause harm to Ismailis there. our seshnaag has a point there and i appreciate some of his research and study.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:29 am

shivaathervedi wrote:In the above farman you quoted, Imam said," but what it does to assist you to understand the blessings that ALLAH HAS GIVEN TO OUR JAMAIT AND OTHERS..". If Imam has been God he should have used the words' THE BLESSINGS WHICH I BESTOWED UPON YOU OR MY JAMAIT'. I have marked that Imam has been using The word ALLAH CONSTANTLY IN HIS FARMANS.

You don't read my posts carefully. On page 38 I posted a Farman and I am posting it again here:

"And I wish it to be clear therefore that in Tariqah matters, I am aware and there will be no change in the essence of our faith. But there will be nonetheless a search to enable the Murids to come together in an ever wider Jamat practising their faith together even if they don't speak the same language. There will be an attempt to take account of the pressures of modern life. There will be an attempt to make sure that traditions are understood within the Jamat and outside and that they do not give offence.(Dar es Salaam Oct 6, 1988)

The above Farman indicates that our traditions should not give offence. If the Imam directly says that he is Allah, that would give offence. These Farmans are read even outside these days.

In his BUK Farmans of 1964 he mentioned about seeking to come closer to the Noor of Imamat. In his recent BUK Farmans he mentions about seeking to come closer to he who is above all else.

The expression will change, but the essence will remain the same - he who is above all else is the same as the Noor of Imamat. To say 'he who is above all else' does not give offence but to say the Noor of Imamat may give offence.

shivaathervedi wrote: Also you have quoted Nasir khusraw that the Mazhar/Hujjat is equivalent to God. Can you write that particular paragraph in persian or give the name of the book by Nasir including page and paragraph #.

I have mentioned several times but you do not read my posts carefully. It is mentioned in his Kalame Pir and has been translated by Ivanow. Late Alwaez Shamshu Bandali Haji gives more details in his book: The Noor En Allah Noor which can be accessed online at: http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/15495

The mention of Kalame Pir is on page no. 7 at:

http://ismaili.net/heritage/files/NoorE ... or1-40.pdf

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:33 am

shivaathervedi wrote:You have quoted ONLY THE LAST HALF PARAGRAPH OF THE FIRST PART OF DU'A TO SERVE YOUR PURPOSE. Though I asked for the complete first part of Du'a. Please try again.
WHEN WORDS CHANGE LOT OF THINGS CHANGE.

I quoted the last paragraph because that was the only change. The rest of the first part is the same as the current Dua. No need to repeat the whole thing and wasting time.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 1:40 am

shivaathervedi wrote:I never got satisfactory answer on this forum " what is Noor"
Noor is attribute of Allah.
Kmaherali = Admin = Nuseri; are they 3 equal.

You have not read my post. I am repeating again.

The Qur'an says: Allah is the Noor
You said: Imam is the Noor

Therefore according to you and the Qur'an, Imam is Allah.

It is simple logic: If A = B and B = C then A=C