SPIRITUAL FATHER

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
If at all I am told to address ALI in person my first choice would be
cal him as Khudavind,If that is not allowed then My Belevod Spiritual Father.
and after it would be as Hazar Imam.
It is amusing that our Alwaez ,bhagats and leaders never asked MHI asked the question of this openly claimed status of his.
It was only in recent year a Christian wife of Ismaili member,who attended the didar even but sat in enclosure meant for non Ismailis out side the main hall but could hear the farman.She asked and got the reply.
recent MHI in mulakat to Indian leaders said that word.
So I feel this incident must be searched and MHI words NO SECRET,what status it signifies of MHI in spiritiual term.
this should be takan forward to jamat to start the process to know the farman in toto n eseence from ABC and basics as these are very first three or words.
Khoja Ismailis are blessed that child is shown photo of MHI and identifies YA ALI BAPPA.
this status can even to put upon the world as I see Christain at haqiqati level of Jesus and Ummah failing to reach level of marfiat which was our prophet because of some reason got stuck in Sharia two level lower
and got anchored into acts of those times.(DISASTER).

This word must give rise to questions of real status of MHI by learned.
Living words of the time and not copy paste of the deads.
If needed I can lead from front a team of Alwaez and scholars to make strong material on it.
If only one put pure translation of certified Persian marfati of the word nafs e KUL
NO NO explaination needed from those who are not haqiqati yet.They will read and understand it wrongly.
This words are sublimating to status of GOD.
Imam- Spiritiual father-GOD are one and one ONLY
Imam-Nafs e Kul- Khudha are one and one ONLY.

A question to All.
Is status MHI as Spiritual Father to all of humanity is notch above or below the status/identification the status and identification as IMAM???
I may consider an Ismaili refusing this status as a Non ismaili even if born as one from my angle and perception

GHAR ME HEERE ZAVERAT HAI AUR
naa samaj KAAKH BAHAR DHOOND RAHE HAI

[Admin]

The relation of Spiritual children and spiritual father is at the core of Ismailism and Hazar Imam dos not miss any opportunity to remind us of this reality with each Farman he makes and each Talika he sends.

[kmaherali]

A question to All.
Is status MHI as Spiritual Father to all of humanity is notch above or below the status/identification the status and identification as IMAM???
I may consider an Ismaili refusing this status as a Non ismaili even if born as one from my angle and perception

GHAR ME HEERE ZAVERAT HAI AUR
naa samaj KAAKH BAHAR DHOOND RAHE HAI

I think each child will approach the faith based upon background. In my opinion one of the reasons that MSMS changed from Ali Sahi Allah to Ali ullah was that not all members of the Jamat had the capacity to understand Ali Sahi ALLah. Ali ullah offers the compromise - it can mean Ali Sahi Allah for those who have that capacity and it can mean 'Ali from Allah' for those who do not.

I think the starting point for all murids must be love and devotion to the Imam. The higher concepts can evolve according to time and practice.

[agakhani_1]

It is amusing that our Alwaez ,bhagats and leaders never asked MHI asked the question of this openly claimed status of his.

How can you say that, they have never asked that question? matter of fact you are absolutely wrong! because during the times of our 46,47 and 48th Imams this question has been asked many times, in many occasion and in many different places: not by waezins only but even jamats also had asked that question to various imams stated above!. You need to study our history before making any bold statement.

[salimkhoja786]

A question to All.
Is status MHI as Spiritual Father to all of humanity is notch above or below the status/identification the status and identification as IMAM???
I may consider an Ismaili refusing this status as a Non ismaili even if born as one from my angle and perception

GHAR ME HEERE ZAVERAT HAI AUR
naa samaj KAAKH BAHAR DHOOND RAHE HAI

I think each child will approach the faith based upon background. In my opinion one of the reasons that MSMS changed from Ali Sahi Allah to Ali ullah was that not all members of the Jamat had the capacity to understand Ali Sahi ALLah. Ali ullah offers the compromise - it can mean Ali Sahi Allah for those who have that capacity and it can mean 'Ali from Allah' for those who do not.

I think the starting point for all murids must be love and devotion to the Imam. The higher concepts can evolve according to time and practice.

I contradict your first paragraph but agree your second paragraph by adding
ethical values and practice of tenets of Islam as mentioned in Preamble.
Let me ask you, can the concepts be changed according to time?
The current farman is ALIULLAH which means ALI IS FROM ALLAH as explained by Imam of the time. So there is no comparison just follow the current farman of present Imam, he knows better.

[Admin]

The current farman is ALIULLAH which means ALI IS FROM ALLAH

How do you translate Rassulillah? It is Rassul OF Allah, not Rassul is from Allah!

So now translate Aliullah and be consistent.

[salimkhoja786]

Ya Ali Madad.
If at all I am told to address ALI in person my first choice would be
cal him as Khudavind,If that is not allowed then My Belevod Spiritual Father.
and after it would be as Hazar Imam.
It is amusing that our Alwaez ,bhagats and leaders never asked MHI asked the question of this openly claimed status of his.
It was only in recent year a Christian wife of Ismaili member,who attended the didar even but sat in enclosure meant for non Ismailis out side the main hall but could hear the farman.She asked and got the reply.
recent MHI in mulakat to Indian leaders said that word.
So I feel this incident must be searched and MHI words NO SECRET,what status it signifies of MHI in spiritiual term.
this should be takan forward to jamat to start the process to know the farman in toto n eseence from ABC and basics as these are very first three or words.
Khoja Ismailis are blessed that child is shown photo of MHI and identifies YA ALI BAPPA.
this status can even to put upon the world as I see Christain at haqiqati level of Jesus and Ummah failing to reach level of marfiat which was our prophet because of some reason got stuck in Sharia two level lower
and got anchored into acts of those times.(DISASTER).

This word must give rise to questions of real status of MHI by learned.
Living words of the time and not copy paste of the deads.
If needed I can lead from front a team of Alwaez and scholars to make strong material on it.
If only one put pure translation of certified Persian marfati of the word nafs e KUL
NO NO explaination needed from those who are not haqiqati yet.They will read and understand it wrongly.
This words are sublimating to status of GOD.
Imam- Spiritiual father-GOD are one and one ONLY
Imam-Nafs e Kul- Khudha are one and one ONLY.

A question to All.
Is status MHI as Spiritual Father to all of humanity is notch above or below the status/identification the status and identification as IMAM???
I may consider an Ismaili refusing this status as a Non ismaili even if born as one from my angle and perception

GHAR ME HEERE ZAVERAT HAI AUR
naa samaj KAAKH BAHAR DHOOND RAHE HAI

In Persian the word khudavend is a common phrase can be used for any person.
The reply to christian wife of an Ismaili by Imam you quoted is not correct.
Not only khoja children but mostly all Ismaili children recognize photo of Imam, what is the point?
In Ismaili terminology NAFS E KUL is at third level. Allah created first KALIMA, then AQL E KUL and then NAFS E KUL.

[nuseri]

Ya ALI madad.

Who is the owner, father, source of all the SOULS on earth?
Our Imam of Ismailis gave the answer.will do till eternity.


To Agakhani:Ya ALI madad.
My take was on these three words,why not all those incidents and living words of IMAM and his claim is not pushed or explained to Jamat nicely by Alwaezs.?
others can be hear say.here is living statement to claim as SPIRITUAL Father.

Can you please quote incident of IMAM relating on these three words.

To Admin: right time to lock n discard of recycling of junk topics. where undermining of noorani members has started which did not happen from 12 years.

If one questions why HE does not care for whole earth population.
There is an Ayat 9:67.
' They forget God ,so God forgets them'.
EK NE TAARE SHAH.
EK NE MAREE SHAH.
EK NE ALI WAR AALE SHAH.
We Ismailis not you come at the last line status.
Search your line or our young haqiqati Ismaili103 will select n certify a line from it for you.

[kmaherali]

Let me ask you, can the concepts be changed according to time?
The current farman is ALIULLAH which means ALI IS FROM ALLAH as explained by Imam of the time. So there is no comparison just follow the current farman of present Imam, he knows better.

The notion of Ali Sahi Allah has existed since time immemorial. That cannot change. What can change is its articulation according to the context.

The translation of Du'a is read by non-Ismailis as well. Hence it would be inappropriate to use notions of Ali Sahi Allah in the context of Dua.

But the idea of Mazhar Allah is very clear in our tariqah as per the Paris Conference. If you say He is the Mazhar, then saying that Imam is from Allah becomes childish. Isn't everyone else from Allah as well. So what would be the difference between the Imam and the rest of us?

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
I have for 'NafsEKul' have very CLEARLY asked for Ismaili haqiqat to copy paste translated Persian material.It excludes any tariqati level and definitely not to any ignorant non Ismaili.

[tret]

The translation of Du'a is read by non-Ismailis as well. Hence it would be inappropriate to use notions of Ali Sahi Allah in the context of Dua.

So, are you suggesting that MHI compromised Du'a by not approving/removing Ali Sahi Allah simply because others can read translation? In the meantime MHI emphasized to all murids to understand the meaning of Du'a, not just memorize it.

MHI also says to understand the concept of God in accordance to Surah Ikhlas, which we (Ismailis) read 3 times a day as part of our Du'a.

You are welcome to ignore MHI's guidance on this matter and believe whatever you wish, but PLEASE don't pretend and make it as part of Ismaili Doctrine.

[ismaili103]

MHI also says to understand the concept of God in accordance to Surah Ikhlas, which we (Ismailis) read 3 times a day as part of our Du'a.

Allah is one and unique, Allah manifested on earth in the form of Imam, thats why Imam is Allah.

Water remains the same if it either put in glass or a bowl.

[salimkhoja786]

The current farman is ALIULLAH which means ALI IS FROM ALLAH

How do you translate Rassulillah? It is Rassul OF Allah, not Rassul is from Allah!

So now translate Aliullah and be consistent.

Admin,
You deleted my answer to your above post. This is called dishonesty and in Urdu 'BADNIYYATI'. I have noticed any post going against your ideology or thinking you keep deleting it. Let me reply you again;
ALI IS FROM ALLAH are not my words. These words uttered by present Imam while explaining the phrase ALIYULLAH AND THE COPY OF IT WAS PROVIDED TO YOU.

[salimkhoja786]

Ya Ali Madad.
I have for 'NafsEKul' have very CLEARLY asked for Ismaili haqiqat to copy paste translated Persian material.It excludes any tariqati level and definitely not to any ignorant non Ismaili.

Wise man learn about Ismaili terminologies and then argue. Nafs e Kul is on third level.

[salimkhoja786]

Let me ask you, can the concepts be changed according to time?
The current farman is ALIULLAH which means ALI IS FROM ALLAH as explained by Imam of the time. So there is no comparison just follow the current farman of present Imam, he knows better.

The notion of Ali Sahi Allah has existed since time immemorial. That cannot change. What can change is its articulation according to the context.

The translation of Du'a is read by non-Ismailis as well. Hence it would be inappropriate to use notions of Ali Sahi Allah in the context of Dua.

But the idea of Mazhar Allah is very clear in our tariqah as per the Paris Conference. If you say He is the Mazhar, then saying that Imam is from Allah becomes childish. Isn't everyone else from Allah as well. So what would be the difference between the Imam and the rest of us?

[salimkhoja786]

Let me ask you, can the concepts be changed according to time?
The current farman is ALIULLAH which means ALI IS FROM ALLAH as explained by Imam of the time. So there is no comparison just follow the current farman of present Imam, he knows better.

The notion of Ali Sahi Allah has existed since time immemorial. That cannot change. What can change is its articulation according to the context.

The translation of Du'a is read by non-Ismailis as well. Hence it would be inappropriate to use notions of Ali Sahi Allah in the context of Dua.

But the idea of Mazhar Allah is very clear in our tariqah as per the Paris Conference. If you say He is the Mazhar, then saying that Imam is from Allah becomes childish. Isn't everyone else from Allah as well. So what would be the difference between the Imam and the rest of us?

The question is why MSMS changed this phrase in 1951 when in 1945 he insisted not to change it? The old Du'a was known to non Ismailis at that time therefore your notion is wrong. In my opinion THE CONCEPT OF ALIYULLAH AND MAZHAR OF ALLAH IS SAME and Imam explained this concept by saying Ali is from Allah.( Please understand these are not my words).

[salimkhoja786]

MHI also says to understand the concept of God in accordance to Surah Ikhlas, which we (Ismailis) read 3 times a day as part of our Du'a.

Allah is one and unique, Allah manifested on earth in the form of Imam, thats why Imam is Allah.

Water remains the same if it either put in glass or a bowl.

According to your analogy water is same; same way noor is same. Allah's noor is in every particle, every thing in universe is His manifestation. Chritians say Christ is God. Hindus say cow is God or monkey is God or a tree is God, even Amitabh Bachan is devta or avtar!!

[Admin]

Imam explained this concept by saying Ali is from Allah.( Please understand these are not my words).

Again your misleading slogans. Where is the Farman that you suggest Imam has made in this regards? Which Imam? There is no such thing.

Our Imam has said different people understand Imam differently according to their own limitations.

[ismaili103]

According to your analogy water is same; same way noor is same. Allah's noor is in every particle, every thing in universe is His manifestation. Chritians say Christ is God. Hindus say cow is God or monkey is God or a tree is God, even Amitabh Bachan is devta or avtar!!

Yes Allah is in every particle of the universe, and every particle meditate that Noor. We humans have the ability to get unite with that Noor and become that Noor. So if we human become that Noor than why not Imam who said that he is Manifestation of that Noor is not that Noor himself.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad.
I acknowledge holy book and accept 90 as quality translation and 10% at tasfeer for all the quack whose copy is floating in the market.
My tasfeer on many ayats has been posted.
For me ANY half shahada without tawhid therein or Ali written on it,I would shove into xxx.
If I can get translation of Persian material.
I WILL rewrite the definition( if murky info there) of Nafsekul as done for the word NOOR.
is this word attributed to God directly or Imam/ God based on varing level.
Answer needed only from Kmaherali or ShamsB.
ISLAM and Ismailis is Faith ,which I believe that Hindus and Christian are spiritually Ismailis and their faith much much much greater than shallow shariati stuck into 1400 years old act.

[Admin]

Yes Allah is in every particle of the universe, and every particle meditate that Noor. We humans have the ability to get unite with that Noor and become that Noor.

However we can become one with the Imam only after we die.

[kmaherali]

The question is why MSMS changed this phrase in 1951 when in 1945 he insisted not to change it? The old Du'a was known to non Ismailis at that time therefore your notion is wrong. In my opinion THE CONCEPT OF ALIYULLAH AND MAZHAR OF ALLAH IS SAME and Imam explained this concept by saying Ali is from Allah.( Please understand these are not my words).

It is the change of outlook. Our Tariqah was getting more into contact with other Tariqahs in Islam as well as other tariqahs within Ismailism. If the Imam gave guidance that 'Imam is from Allah" be used for translation, because that is the lowest common denominator of understanding - even the Sunnis will accept that.

However what is meant as nursery level of understanding for the general Muslims should not be translated into the Jamati understanding - which is Imam is the Mazhar of Allah. There is a vast difference between Mazhar of Allah and Ali is from Allah. We are all from Allah is not the same as we are all Mazhar of Allah.

If "Ali is from Allah" was meant, than what is the point of saying it at all? Aren't we all from Allah. So what is so special about Ali being from Allah?

"Ali from Allah" was meant for non-Ismailis and those like yourself whereas "Ali Sahi Allah" was meant for the Jamat.

Hence for the Jamat, Ali ullah is Ali Sahi Allah but for others it is "Ali is from Allah. You can decide for yourself where you belong!

[kmaherali]

According to your analogy water is same; same way noor is same. Allah's noor is in every particle, every thing in universe is His manifestation. Chritians say Christ is God. Hindus say cow is God or monkey is God or a tree is God, even Amitabh Bachan is devta or avtar!!

It is a matter of degree, every particle has a soul and therefore has an aspect of god, but it a matter of degree. MSMS says in his Memoirs:

"Islamic doctrine goes further than the other great religions, for it proclaims the presence of the soul, perhaps minute but nevertheless existing in an embryonic state, in all existence in matter, in animals, trees, and space itself. Every individual, every molecule, every atom has its own spiritual relationship with the All-Powerful Soul of God. But men and women, being more highly developed, are immensely more advanced than the infinite number of other beings known to us. Islam acknowledges the existence of angels, of great souls who have developed themselves to the highest possible planes of the human soul and higher, and who are centres of the forces which are scattered throughout the Universe."

http://www.ismaili.net/Source/0016b.html

Hence there is a vast difference between a soul of a plant and that of an Imam.

[kmaherali]

Ya Ali Madad.
or the concept of Spiritual Father came with Jesus Christ or existed earlier in different wordings.

In the Bhagavad Gita, Arjuna addresses Lord Krishna after his deedar with him:

43. Father of all. Master supreme. Power supreme in all the worlds. Who is like thee? Who is beyond thee?

44. I bow before thee, I prostrate in adoration; and I beg thy grace, O glorious Lord! As a father to his son, as a friend to his friend, as a lover to his beloved, be gracious unto me, O God.

For more on this chapter go to:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 06&start=0

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
An important extract with qualitative search indeed.
I wish to know from Persian poems or dogmas is the ruhani father,source, bearer,origin of souls used for GOD/ALI/IMAM.( tret should participate)
they were bold like Pirs.
and also from other religious scripts..what ALI say today from his lips(not hear say) of spiritual essence we can validate that from origin of humans And not any other species.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
I wish inputs from members to post extract of Ginans & Qasidas showing relation/status of Spiritual father and children. Earnestly looking for inputs from our well read haqiqati brother in Texas.
One that I hear often is
AEJI SAMI MAA BAAP AMNEE JANAMIYA..........

[kmaherali]

Ya Ali Madad.
I wish inputs from members to post extract of Ginans & Qasidas showing relation/status of Spiritual father and children. Earnestly looking for inputs from our well read haqiqati brother in Texas.
One that I hear often is
AEJI SAMI MAA BAAP AMNEE JANAMIYA..........

Sloko Motto:

satgur kahere: maheemaa amaaro maataa tanno
ane peetaa amane jaann
pann par stree kaarann amane melsho
to ame maataa peetaa kem thaay neervaann re....190

The True Guide says: Our status is that of a mother and we are your father. But if for the sake of a woman other than your wife, you abandon us, how can we become your mother and father ?

Anant Akhado:

Aashaajee Pachhe sohee jeev duneeyaa maanhe aavyaa
Sat Panth maarage chaale jee
heenna kheenna kaheen jeev hoyshe
maata thaee tame taaro..................Haree anant..326

Oh Lord Then the souls come into the world
and walk on the True Path
There will be amongst them lower and higher ones
by becoming their mother save them all
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Maat taat to tamne jaannu
avar na jaannu koi jee
amaarun mastak tamaare haathe
jyaan naakho tyaan thaay................Haree anant..327

Oh Lord I regard you as a mother and a father
and I do not know anybody else
My head(life) is in your hands(you have control over it)
wherever you place it,it will go
(My life progresses in whatever direction you wish)
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Maat taat ne mahaa bandhavaa
ane bharthaar pann tunhee jee
amaaraa saamu nav juvo
thao sarve jaann........................Haree anant..330

Oh Lord You are our father, mother and elder of family
and you are also my Husband(Lord)
Do not look at us(at our errors)
and become everything to us
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Tame hee maataa tame hee peetaa
tame hee moraa Saamee jee
seerbandh tame baandho moraa Saamee
anant-ko bhaar utthaaye.................Haree anant..499

Oh Lord You are my mother and You are my father
and You are my Lord
Fold the Turban my Lord
and lift the eternal burden from me
Haree You are eternal...

[kmaherali]

Verses from Moman Chetamni

Eji Maat taat tame bandhva
Amara Shah saday cho bharthar
Hoon bandi saday tam tani
Tame purusho cho nirinjan avtar
Cheto....478

You are our mother, father and family. You are forever our Imam and the Husband. I am your slave forever. You Husband are the manifestation of that Invisible and Unknowable Being.

Eji Ya Ali maat taat janme balak ne
Te mahain vahalo veri nahi sahu enu parivar
Samiji adkoon ochoon aema(n) koie nahi
Te maat pita ne vahalo potano pariwar
Cheto....536

O Lord! Mother and father give birth to children. Among them none is loved and none is hated, for all are their family. O Mowla, none is inferior or superior and to the mother and father their family is dear.

Eji Surshti to sirjanhaar tame
Tame cho maat taat bandhav morar
Aa kutumb kabilo samiji tame
Tam vina nahi koie sansarma saar
Cheto....537

O Mowla! You are the Creator of the world. You are the mother father family and the Lord. O Mowla! You are this family and except you there is no one else of worth.

[kmaherali]

Aashaajee Tame hee maataa tame hee peetaa
tame hee moraa Saamee jee
seerbandh tame baandho moraa Saamee
anant-ko bhaar utthaaye.................Haree anant..499

Oh Lord You are my mother and You are my father
and You are my Lord
Fold the Turban my Lord
and lift the eternal burden from me
Haree You are eternal...

There is an interesting article:

Is God Transgender?

Extract:

The Israelites took the transgender trope from their surrounding cultures and wove it into their own sacred scripture. The four-Hebrew-letter name of God, which scholars refer to as the Tetragrammaton, YHWH, was probably not pronounced “Jehovah” or “Yahweh,” as some have guessed. The Israelite priests would have read the letters in reverse as Hu/Hi — in other words, the hidden name of God was Hebrew for “He/She.” Counter to everything we grew up believing, the God of Israel — the God of the three monotheistic, Abrahamic religions to which fully half the people on the planet today belong — was understood by its earliest worshipers to be a dual-gendered deity.

More..

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/13/opini ... 87722&_r=0

[shivaathervedi]

Aashaajee Tame hee maataa tame hee peetaa
tame hee moraa Saamee jee
seerbandh tame baandho moraa Saamee
anant-ko bhaar utthaaye.................Haree anant..499

Oh Lord You are my mother and You are my father
and You are my Lord
Fold the Turban my Lord
and lift the eternal burden from me
Haree You are eternal...

There is an interesting article:

Is God Transgender?

Extract:

The Israelites took the transgender trope from their surrounding cultures and wove it into their own sacred scripture. The four-Hebrew-letter name of God, which scholars refer to as the Tetragrammaton, YHWH, was probably not pronounced “Jehovah” or “Yahweh,” as some have guessed. The Israelite priests would have read the letters in reverse as Hu/Hi — in other words, the hidden name of God was Hebrew for “He/She.” Counter to everything we grew up believing, the God of Israel — the God of the three monotheistic, Abrahamic religions to which fully half the people on the planet today belong — was understood by its earliest worshipers to be a dual-gendered deity.

More..

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/13/opini ... 87722&_r=0

The Arabic version of YHWH is YA HUWA. As we recite in Du'a QUL HUWALLAHU AHAD. By the way NIRINJIN IS NEITHER HE NOR SHE.