quran as mentioned in preamble

Discussion on doctrinal issues
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kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

salimkhoja786 wrote:You are giving example of Tusi's statement and neglecting writings of Qadi Noaman. Please refer to first chapter of Dua'm Al Islam..
Since you have read Qadi Numan, please tell us with appropriate reference what he said about the actions of the Imam. I don't recall reading anything about it.
salimkhoja786 wrote: Tusi quit Ismailism at the end of his life and became Isna'ashiri where as Qadi Noaman remained Ismaili and faithful to Imam till his last breath. In my view stealing any thing (books) bu Imam is a bad example for youth may be acceptable to westerners..
Stealing books is not acceptable in any society. It is considered as a crime punishable by law. The fact that the Imam mentioned it, confirms what Tusi said about the incomprehensibility of Imam's actions. Whether he later changed his faith is irrelevant.
salimkhoja786 wrote: You wrote," To the jamaits the Imam said that he was Ahl e Rasul and the bearer of Noor". I accept this farman BUT no where in this farman Imam said that he is God!.
But he said that the Imams are the Ocean to which we return just like the Qur'an - we return to Allah. Hence Imam = Allah.
salimkhoja786 wrote: You frequently quote Memoirs, let me ask you a question; In Memoirs MSMS has mentioned his second marriage as MUTA marraige. Is this applicable to Ismailis or is only confined to Imam?
I have always said that we should not consider the Imam's actions as guidance. We should not do what they do but follow what they tell us.
salimkhoja786 wrote: In preamble Imam has mentioned that message of Quran is eternal and universal. Quran says for Prophet Muhammad," Prophet's life is a best example for you". MSMS said he is Noor e Muhammadi as well Noor e Ali. There fore Imam is also considered as a role model or example.
If you consider the Imam as a role model, how do you explain that the Imam stealing books? Should we encourage our children to steal as well?
nuseri
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Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:54 am

Post by nuseri »

Ya ali madad.
were tusi or pussy or qadi noman were declared as Pirs are were just level 6 scholars of their time. nothing great in what thet work.
our true tariqa is to follow MHI farman. and from farman uphold the traditions of ginans and Qasidas for inspiration.
we are not told to follow even the pirs as they lived and behaved in thier time and same goes for Prophet.
we have to follow what he orders in Farman and not what hesaid in press,media.speeches.
an ignorant will go mad on waht to follow.
1. A human being looking like him.
2. a rich religious leader ( agaKhan).
3. An Leader Of Ummah. ( Khalifa of past)
4.As an Imam, guider of time. who can only give appearance or Didar when
he gives didars physically once in few year.
5.As God and very much part of one's oneself.(tawhid).
get Didal almost at will with out physical closeness( baatin didar) and get intellect sourced from Him( noorani didar).
Ismaili conference clearly uses the 'varing level of inspiration' when the word mazhar was used.
reading n posting all rubbish is like eating grass like Donkey what ever may be the secular qualification.
He has given us two to master in qualify from it to know who you are who is HE?.
if ones level want at see x level, that is its opportunity or problem.
in any organization on only see boss as boss struggles but one who gets close to him and praises him time to time get quicker promotion.
One just dislike the boss because he is rich and he works under him.
One BOSS and three varing levels.
in world there would 6-7 level to know One human being.
upper level human being as Souls within.
Very few observe Noor within souls of human being.
so again a varing level.
here one is low end cunning tariqati and little above shariati
who can copy paste zahiri data and debate with it own low varing LEVEL in this forum.
My ofice staff a graduate a hindu ( has more regard for MHI) seem to be clever than this living creature.
I place the humanity as these level.

ISHQ ALI PE HAI ABAADI TUMARI.

MAAN ALI PE SALAMATI TUMARI.

SHAQUE ALI PE HAI KASOTI TUMARI.

NAFRAT ALI PE HAI AAFAR TUMARI.

SEE HOW THE WESTERN countries are blessed as the respect MHI
and 66% of Sharaiti counties are going to the dog( their present fate of life as worthless or as worthy as an animal) as they suspect and even hate MHI.
what is in store for them has started happening and get worse.
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

nuseri wrote:Ya ali madad.
were tusi or pussy or qadi noman were declared as Pirs are were just level 6 scholars of their time. nothing great in what thet work.
Read and reflect upon the following Farman:

"Probably never before in our history has the Jamat been living in so many different parts of the world. And that is an opportunity for the future of the Jamat around the world, first of all, to learn about its history, and secondly to benefit from the wisdom, the thinking of our great philosophers, our great historians, our great poets of the past. Ours is a long tradition and, within that tradition, the role of the intellect is central. So I want my spiritual children, particularly the younger ones, to mature, to grow up having access to this remarkable intellectual tradition, and to be able to draw from it faith and happiness and direction. Ours is a remarkable history, and much more needs to be done than has been done until now, to make this history available to the Jamat around the world. So I say today to the younger generation: there is much for you to learn, much for you to enjoy, much more to be inspired by; and much for you to use in your everyday life to contribute to the balance between the life of faith and the life of the world."(Karimabad Jamatkhana, Karachi, Pakistan, Wednesday October 25, 2000)
nuseri
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Post by nuseri »

To Kmaherali.:Ya ALI madad.
You highlighted a wrong line.
High lighting of within the traditions INTELLECT IS CENTRAL.here he mentions level 7 category of Ismaili Stalwart.
Imam SMS has taken names of few to take inspiration from.

Has IMAM told us to be like qadi or tusi?
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

nuseri wrote: Has IMAM told us to be like qadi or tusi?
No but he has told us to draw, wisdom and knowledge from them.
salimkhoja786
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Post by salimkhoja786 »

kmaherali wrote:
salimkhoja786 wrote:Being as Ismails, family members of Imam should attend JK or for them is different kind of Ismailism. Did Mowla Ali's sons or Imam Baqir and Imam Ja'far Sadiq's sons attend Salat /Du'a or not? Wives of Hazar Imam became Muslims and adopted Ismailism. Nikah was recited by Mullahs. One mother of princes should be called mother of 'future' Imam. Still you will set aside and disrespect that mother?
There is only one kind of Ismailism. If you do not belief that the rest of the Nurani Family (wives excluded) are NOORANI than there is no basis for respecting them. We only respect them because they are NOORANI like MHI and hence do not need to practice as other murids - JK attendance for example.

History is irrelevant here. We know that all members of Nurani family work in unity for the cause of Imamat.

All the wives in the Nurani Family have never become Ismailis perhaps with the exception of Lady Ali Shah and Mata Salamat who became Ismailis much later in their lives.

Setting aside did not mean disrespect for them? It was only meant to consider them as a separate category because they are not Ismailis.
How come our history is irrelevant! you have been writing that we have to learn from our past, our history from our Pirs and Dais. Both wives of Imam became Muslims and changed to Islamic names and became Ismailis, their NIKAH was recited by Mullahs, and they accompanied Imam in JK's.
According history Lady Ali Shah did not become Ismaili.
Did Mowla Ali's sons or Imam Ja'far's sons not attended daily prayers?
Admin
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Post by Admin »

salimkhoja786 wrote: Both wives of Imam became Muslims and changed to Islamic names and became Ismailis
None became Ismaili. They became Muslim and after that married the Imam. if you have any evidence that they became Ismaili while married to the Imam put it here else do not make misleading statements.

Mata Salamat became Ismaili AFTER Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah died, when she recognised Shah Karim Hazar Imam as her Imam and did bayat.

To accompany Imam in jamatkhana or even Darbar does not make one an Ismaili. Else even Gandhi or Bhutto accompanied the Imam in darbar so are you saying they were Ismaili? What nonsense!
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

salimkhoja786 wrote:How come our history is irrelevant! you have been writing that we have to learn from our past, our history from our Pirs and Dais. Both wives of Imam became Muslims and changed to Islamic names and became Ismailis, their NIKAH was recited by Mullahs, and they accompanied Imam in JK's.
According history Lady Ali Shah did not become Ismaili.
Did Mowla Ali's sons or Imam Ja'far's sons not attended daily prayers?
Please explain how history is relevant here. Are you suggesting that the present Imam and their son's should learn from history? What is the point you are making?

According to Memoirs, MSMS did not attend the burial of Lady Ali Shah according to custom - the Imams do not attend the burial of their murids. Hence she would have become a murid albeit at the very end of her life.
agakhani_1
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Post by agakhani_1 »

Hence she would have become a murid albeit at the very end of her life.
I heard in one waez that MSM called a Mukhi for Mahadan's chhanta for lady Ali Shah if this is correct then she must be converted in Ismailism.
salimkhoja786
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Post by salimkhoja786 »

agakhani wrote:
Hence she would have become a murid albeit at the very end of her life.
I heard in one waez that MSM called a Mukhi for Mahadan's chhanta for lady Ali Shah if this is correct then she must be converted in Ismailism.

Good to see you back. Do you have any historical written evidence. I my self have caught many coined stories by some senior missionaries! Lady Ali Shah passed away in Iraq, can you give the name of Mukhi?
salimkhoja786
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Post by salimkhoja786 »

kmaherali wrote:
salimkhoja786 wrote:How come our history is irrelevant! you have been writing that we have to learn from our past, our history from our Pirs and Dais. Both wives of Imam became Muslims and changed to Islamic names and became Ismailis, their NIKAH was recited by Mullahs, and they accompanied Imam in JK's.
According history Lady Ali Shah did not become Ismaili.
Did Mowla Ali's sons or Imam Ja'far's sons not attended daily prayers?
Please explain how history is relevant here. Are you suggesting that the present Imam and their son's should learn from history? What is the point you are making?

According to Memoirs, MSMS did not attend the burial of Lady Ali Shah according to custom - the Imams do not attend the burial of their murids. Hence she would have become a murid albeit at the very end of her life.
You have twisted my statement as usual like a political leader. Won't work.
I have not written that Imam and his sons should learn from history.
You wrote," Imam do not attend the burial of murids", but Mowla Ali did.
Do you have any historical evidence that Lady Ali Shah became Ismaili at the end of her life. Why she realized at the end of her life? Her namaz e janaza was recited according to Ja'fari Tariqa.
salimkhoja786
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Post by salimkhoja786 »

Admin wrote:
salimkhoja786 wrote: Both wives of Imam became Muslims and changed to Islamic names and became Ismailis
None became Ismaili. They became Muslim and after that married the Imam. if you have any evidence that they became Ismaili while married to the Imam put it here else do not make misleading statements.

Mata Salamat became Ismaili AFTER Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah died, when she recognised Shah Karim Hazar Imam as her Imam and did bayat.

To accompany Imam in jamatkhana or even Darbar does not make one an Ismaili. Else even Gandhi or Bhutto accompanied the Imam in darbar so are you saying they were Ismaili? What nonsense!
Mr. Ghandi was invited and Mr. Bhutto insisted Imam to accompany him. At time of darbar Mr, Bhutto lit his cigar not respecting Imam.
What written proof you have that Mata Salamat was not Ismaili at time of MSMS. Difference between Hazar Imam and Mata Salamat arose because she disobeyed Imam when Imam asked her not to accompany last burial ceremonies of MSMS, but she did with few other ladies.
Begum Salimah and Begum Anara became Ismaili, what proof you have that they did not.
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Post by Admin »

salimkhoja786 wrote: What written proof you have that Mata Salamat was not Ismaili at time of MSMS. Difference between Hazar Imam and Mata Salamat arose because she disobeyed Imam when Imam asked her not to accompany last burial ceremonies of MSMS, but she did with few other ladies.
Begum Salimah and Begum Anara became Ismaili, what proof you have that they did not.
As I said get some education. You make a statement which I challenged. The burden of the proof is on you. I don't have to prove that someone did not become Ismaili. You are saying they became Ismaili, you are saying Mata Salamat has a disagreement with Hazar Imam because she went to funeral (In some areas like Syria women do go to funeral) so YOU have to prove it or just refrain from misleading people on this Forum.

I have been more than tolerant with your posting and you should not be surprised when I delete them, you should be surprised that from time to time I allow some of your posts here.

Admin
salimkhoja786
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Post by salimkhoja786 »

nuseri wrote:Ya ali madad.
were tusi or pussy or qadi noman were declared as Pirs are were just level 6 scholars of their time. nothing great in what thet work.
our true tariqa is to follow MHI farman. and from farman uphold the traditions of ginans and Qasidas for inspiration.
we are not told to follow even the pirs as they lived and behaved in thier time and same goes for Prophet.
we have to follow what he orders in Farman and not what hesaid in press,media.speeches.
an ignorant will go mad on waht to follow.
1. A human being looking like him.
2. a rich religious leader ( agaKhan).
3. An Leader Of Ummah. ( Khalifa of past)
4.As an Imam, guider of time. who can only give appearance or Didar when
he gives didars physically once in few year.
5.As God and very much part of one's oneself.(tawhid).
get Didal almost at will with out physical closeness( baatin didar) and get intellect sourced from Him( noorani didar).
Ismaili conference clearly uses the 'varing level of inspiration' when the word mazhar was used.
reading n posting all rubbish is like eating grass like Donkey what ever may be the secular qualification.
He has given us two to master in qualify from it to know who you are who is HE?.
if ones level want at see x level, that is its opportunity or problem.
in any organization on only see boss as boss struggles but one who gets close to him and praises him time to time get quicker promotion.
One just dislike the boss because he is rich and he works under him.
One BOSS and three varing levels.
in world there would 6-7 level to know One human being.
upper level human being as Souls within.
Very few observe Noor within souls of human being.
so again a varing level.
here one is low end cunning tariqati and little above shariati
who can copy paste zahiri data and debate with it own low varing LEVEL in this forum.
My ofice staff a graduate a hindu ( has more regard for MHI) seem to be clever than this living creature.
I place the humanity as these level.

ISHQ ALI PE HAI ABAADI TUMARI.

MAAN ALI PE SALAMATI TUMARI.

SHAQUE ALI PE HAI KASOTI TUMARI.

NAFRAT ALI PE HAI AAFAR TUMARI.

SEE HOW THE WESTERN countries are blessed as the respect MHI
and 66% of Sharaiti counties are going to the dog( their present fate of life as worthless or as worthy as an animal) as they suspect and even hate MHI.
what is in store for them has started happening and get worse.

FILTHY CREATURE WROTE TUSI, PUSSY, QADI, he calls himself an Ismaili and branding our DAIS AS PUSSY and Admin is silent. Admin is dead meat that's why he is still roaming on this site. Strange thing is that all so called scholars of this site are silent to save their PR, no one is condemning his statement.
Admin knows only to threatens me, what about this above crap. It is disgusting and shameful.
nuseri
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Joined: Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:54 am

Post by nuseri »

Ya Ali madad.
A lousy LOSER. crying foul.it got nailed on the hood on my last posting in other topic which brands and identify this one as NON ISMAILI.
He called a living person who is feeding him Milk inspite of all members being disgusted with him a DEAD MEAT like a lifeless or soulless Admin.
No living human other than ALI can easily take on his ATTORNEY GENERAL. If any that entity has to be a Greater soul.
One true admission I appreciate the nice research & copy paste of his as shivaatrivedi as his soul is unexposed to many.
Admin as generous he is can keep window open for that login id for COPY PASTING.
kmaherali
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Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:01 pm

Post by kmaherali »

salimkhoja786 wrote: You have twisted my statement as usual like a political leader. Won't work.
I have not written that Imam and his sons should learn from history. .
Then, what was the purpose of asking: "Did Mowla Ali's sons or Imam Ja'far's sons not attended daily prayers?"
salimkhoja786 wrote: You wrote," Imam do not attend the burial of murids", but Mowla Ali did..
Please provide evidence.
salimkhoja786 wrote: Do you have any historical evidence that Lady Ali Shah became Ismaili at the end of her life. Why she realized at the end of her life? Her namaz e janaza was recited according to Ja'fari Tariqa.
Every person has his/her own moment of realization. Some people have it when they are born, others when they are middle-aged and some when they are at the end.

Below is the description of her final moments given in the Memoirs by her son.

"A few minutes after I reached her bedside, her eyes opened and she recognized me. Then in the way that all true Muslims would ask, who seek to follow the Prophet's example and attain a safe and quiet journey from the midst of the living, she achieved peace and happiness and that final "Companionship-on-High" for which we all yearn. In accordance with Ismaili tradition I did not accompany her body to its last resting place, but certain nephews and cousins laid her lovingly beside my father, and they were - as she had and ardently desired - finally reunited." (page 270)

From the above we can see that she saw the Imam at the final moment and that she attained what the Prophet attained - Ultimate Union.

He did not attend the burial because according Ismaili tradition the Imam does not for his murids.

Hence she must have been a murid at the time of her death.

Shah Karim did not attend the burial of his father because he was the murid of the Imam.
kmaherali
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Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2003 3:01 pm

Post by kmaherali »

salimkhoja786 wrote: What written proof you have that Mata Salamat was not Ismaili at time of MSMS. Difference between Hazar Imam and Mata Salamat arose because she disobeyed Imam when Imam asked her not to accompany last burial ceremonies of MSMS, but she did with few other ladies.
Begum Salimah and Begum Anara became Ismaili, what proof you have that they did not.
Below is the extract from Willi Frischauer's The Aga Khans about the funeral of MSMS.

"At Aswan, Prince Karim first went to the Begum's house, where the body of his grandfather was lying in state, and discussed with her the next day's funeral arrangements and the part of the mourners in the ceremony. Muslim tradition required it to be an all-male affair with the ladies remaining in the background: 'According to our custom,' said Mr Zulfikarali C. Valiani, who helped to make the arrangements, 'the men would assemble in one tent while the ladies would be in another tent. . . .'

At twelve-thirty p.m. on the day of the funeral, Prince Karim, accompanied by the Mir of Hunza, Sir Eboo Pirbhai, Mr Amirali Fancy and other Ismaili dignitaries, went to the local mosque for Friday prayers. The funeral procession formed at three p.m. In Aly's absence, the three nearest male relatives—Karim, Amyn, Sadruddin—and the late Aga's long-serving old valet, Solomon Bandely, carried the coffin on the last stage to the fortress-like Mausoleum on the hill overlooking the Nile. As the procession passed the ladies' tent, the Begum emerged. Dressed in a white sari and accompanied by a friend and a maid, she followed the cortege, a break with Muslim custom. The young Imam showed no sign of
his disapproval, and did not utter a word. But when the funeral was over, the coolness between him and the Begum was evident. The Imam of the time had been publicly defied by the widow of his predecessor. The incident caused a rift which was not healed for several years. It certainly put an end to any notion of Prince Karim accepting guidance from the Begum—or anyone else for that matter.

He was Imam in his own right.

As if to underline her own right, the Begum at the head of a large retinue of women paid another visit to the Mausoleum a few weeks later. To reporters she talked with some bitterness about the Aswan incident: 'Prince Karim did not want me to follow the procession on the grounds of Ismaili rites,' she said. ' If I went to the Mausoleum contrary to his wishes, it was only because I was tired and did not want to wait for hours in the gilded armchair in which I was to sit.'
Members of her late husband's family, she added, did not speak to
her and left the day after the ceremony without taking leave of her:
I know that Prince Karim does not have the slightest intention of following his grandfather's wishes so far as I am concerned . . .' Ten years later, when I mentioned the incident, the Aga Khan dismissed it as a minor misunderstanding about religious etiquette which was best forgotten: 'The Begum is European . . . ' was all he said by way of explanation."

Do you think from the above that the Begum could have been a murid of the Imam at that time?
kmaherali
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Post by kmaherali »

salimkhoja786 wrote: Begum Salimah and Begum Anara became Ismaili, what proof you have that they did not.
The proof is in the multi-million dollar divorce lawsuits. It is against the Farman to waste the resources. That's is the reason for the CABS.
agakhani_1
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Post by agakhani_1 »

Good to see you back. Do you have any historical written evidence. I my self have caught many coined stories by some senior missionaries! Lady Ali Shah passed away in Iraq, can you give the name of Mukhi?
I am here in this forum everyday!! so there is no question to come back for me! about your request I will not answer it! because you know the reason but let me put it here one more time, it will be fruitless to put requested information because as per your old habit you will raise more nonsense questions again.
salimkhoja786
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Post by salimkhoja786 »

kmaherali wrote:
salimkhoja786 wrote:You are giving example of Tusi's statement and neglecting writings of Qadi Noaman. Please refer to first chapter of Dua'm Al Islam..
Since you have read Qadi Numan, please tell us with appropriate reference what he said about the actions of the Imam. I don't recall reading anything about it.
salimkhoja786 wrote: Tusi quit Ismailism at the end of his life and became Isna'ashiri where as Qadi Noaman remained Ismaili and faithful to Imam till his last breath. In my view stealing any thing (books) bu Imam is a bad example for youth may be acceptable to westerners..
Stealing books is not acceptable in any society. It is considered as a crime punishable by law. The fact that the Imam mentioned it, confirms what Tusi said about the incomprehensibility of Imam's actions. Whether he later changed his faith is irrelevant.
salimkhoja786 wrote: You wrote," To the jamaits the Imam said that he was Ahl e Rasul and the bearer of Noor". I accept this farman BUT no where in this farman Imam said that he is God!.
But he said that the Imams are the Ocean to which we return just like the Qur'an - we return to Allah. Hence Imam = Allah.
salimkhoja786 wrote: You frequently quote Memoirs, let me ask you a question; In Memoirs MSMS has mentioned his second marriage as MUTA marraige. Is this applicable to Ismailis or is only confined to Imam?
I have always said that we should not consider the Imam's actions as guidance. We should not do what they do but follow what they tell us.
salimkhoja786 wrote: In preamble Imam has mentioned that message of Quran is eternal and universal. Quran says for Prophet Muhammad," Prophet's life is a best example for you". MSMS said he is Noor e Muhammadi as well Noor e Ali. There fore Imam is also considered as a role model or example.
If you consider the Imam as a role model, how do you explain that the Imam stealing books? Should we encourage our children to steal as well?

Quoting a paragraph from Dua'm you asked for;

The righteous Imams,the blessings of God be on them, and His mercy, and His Barakah, are only CREATURES of God the glorious. and His bondmen, especialy selected among others. God has ordained that persons living during the time of each Imam should obey him., and accept his commands. God has constituted the Imams the Guides for mankind, and the reasons for His existence. He has equated obedience to the Imams to Him and His Prophet in the Quran. The Imams are Proofs (Hujjats) of God and His representative on earth. THE IMAMS ARE NOT GOD, AS ASSERTED BY THE MISGUIDED DISTORTERS OF TRUTH, NOR ARE THEY MESSENGERS SENT BY GOD. NO REVELATION HAS COME TO THEM, AS WAS DELVERED TO PROPHETS, and knowledge of other world, unknown to His other creatures, was not vouchsafed to them. No Prophets had greater knowledge of God than what was granted to him.
The claims made for the Imams by the mendacious perverters of truth are false. Exalted above is Allah,. His friends (the Imams) are purified from the distortions and falsehood of the misguided ones and the false words of the hertics.

Dua'mul Islam. Chapter 1, Willayah; the Status of Imams.

Being a MA'SUM he supposed not to but, he makes the rules and breaks the rules.
salimkhoja786
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Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:22 pm

Post by salimkhoja786 »

agakhani wrote:
Good to see you back. Do you have any historical written evidence. I my self have caught many coined stories by some senior missionaries! Lady Ali Shah passed away in Iraq, can you give the name of Mukhi?
I am here in this forum everyday!! so there is no question to come back for me! about your request I will not answer it! because you know the reason but let me put it here one more time, it will be fruitless to put requested information because as per your old habit you will raise more nonsense questions again.

I did not requested you to come back this should be clear in your mind, I just welcomed you because you wrote you will not answer.
As usual you are bluffing, you have no proper information.
salimkhoja786
Posts: 150
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2016 4:22 pm

Post by salimkhoja786 »

kmaherali wrote:
salimkhoja786 wrote: You have twisted my statement as usual like a political leader. Won't work.
I have not written that Imam and his sons should learn from history. .
Then, what was the purpose of asking: "Did Mowla Ali's sons or Imam Ja'far's sons not attended daily prayers?"
salimkhoja786 wrote: You wrote," Imam do not attend the burial of murids", but Mowla Ali did..
Please provide evidence.
salimkhoja786 wrote: Do you have any historical evidence that Lady Ali Shah became Ismaili at the end of her life. Why she realized at the end of her life? Her namaz e janaza was recited according to Ja'fari Tariqa.
Every person has his/her own moment of realization. Some people have it when they are born, others when they are middle-aged and some when they are at the end.

Below is the description of her final moments given in the Memoirs by her son.

"A few minutes after I reached her bedside, her eyes opened and she recognized me. Then in the way that all true Muslims would ask, who seek to follow the Prophet's example and attain a safe and quiet journey from the midst of the living, she achieved peace and happiness and that final "Companionship-on-High" for which we all yearn. In accordance with Ismaili tradition I did not accompany her body to its last resting place, but certain nephews and cousins laid her lovingly beside my father, and they were - as she had and ardently desired - finally reunited." (page 270)

From the above we can see that she saw the Imam at the final moment and that she attained what the Prophet attained - Ultimate Union.

He did not attend the burial because according Ismaili tradition the Imam does not for his murids.

Hence she must have been a murid at the time of her death.

Shah Karim did not attend the burial of his father because he was the murid of the Imam.

You did not mentioned about janazah namaz offered, Was that on Ismaili Tariqa or Ja'fari Tariqa? Your this sentence is ambiguous ," Hence she must have been a murid at the time of her death". You are not sure!
MSMS was her mother's side at last moments because that was mother and son bond because MSMS loved his mother a lot and this is not an indicator that she became Ismaili at last moment.
Just for information, did Hazar Imam attended janazah namaz of his father?
salimkhoja786
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Post by salimkhoja786 »

kmaherali wrote:
salimkhoja786 wrote: You have twisted my statement as usual like a political leader. Won't work.
I have not written that Imam and his sons should learn from history. .
Then, what was the purpose of asking: "Did Mowla Ali's sons or Imam Ja'far's sons not attended daily prayers?"
salimkhoja786 wrote: You wrote," Imam do not attend the burial of murids", but Mowla Ali did..
Please provide evidence.


Answer;
My point is if Mowla Ali's sons and Imam ja'far sadiq's sons attended prayers with other Muslims in masjid/JK, why not Hazar Imam's sons in JK.

Mowla Ali attended burial of Bibi Fatimah.
salimkhoja786
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Post by salimkhoja786 »

kmaherali wrote:
salimkhoja786 wrote: You have twisted my statement as usual like a political leader. Won't work.
I have not written that Imam and his sons should learn from history. .
Then, what was the purpose of asking: "Did Mowla Ali's sons or Imam Ja'far's sons not attended daily prayers?"
salimkhoja786 wrote: You wrote," Imam do not attend the burial of murids", but Mowla Ali did..
Please provide evidence.


Answer;
My point is if Mowla Ali's sons and Imam ja'far sadiq's sons attended prayers with other Muslims in masjid/JK, why not Hazar Imam's sons in JK.

Mowla Ali attended burial of Bibi Fatimah.
salimkhoja786
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Post by salimkhoja786 »

kmaherali wrote:
salimkhoja786 wrote: What written proof you have that Mata Salamat was not Ismaili at time of MSMS. Difference between Hazar Imam and Mata Salamat arose because she disobeyed Imam when Imam asked her not to accompany last burial ceremonies of MSMS, but she did with few other ladies.
Begum Salimah and Begum Anara became Ismaili, what proof you have that they did not.
Below is the extract from Willi Frischauer's The Aga Khans about the funeral of MSMS.

"At Aswan, Prince Karim first went to the Begum's house, where the body of his grandfather was lying in state, and discussed with her the next day's funeral arrangements and the part of the mourners in the ceremony. Muslim tradition required it to be an all-male affair with the ladies remaining in the background: 'According to our custom,' said Mr Zulfikarali C. Valiani, who helped to make the arrangements, 'the men would assemble in one tent while the ladies would be in another tent. . . .'

At twelve-thirty p.m. on the day of the funeral, Prince Karim, accompanied by the Mir of Hunza, Sir Eboo Pirbhai, Mr Amirali Fancy and other Ismaili dignitaries, went to the local mosque for Friday prayers. The funeral procession formed at three p.m. In Aly's absence, the three nearest male relatives—Karim, Amyn, Sadruddin—and the late Aga's long-serving old valet, Solomon Bandely, carried the coffin on the last stage to the fortress-like Mausoleum on the hill overlooking the Nile. As the procession passed the ladies' tent, the Begum emerged. Dressed in a white sari and accompanied by a friend and a maid, she followed the cortege, a break with Muslim custom. The young Imam showed no sign of
his disapproval, and did not utter a word. But when the funeral was over, the coolness between him and the Begum was evident. The Imam of the time had been publicly defied by the widow of his predecessor. The incident caused a rift which was not healed for several years. It certainly put an end to any notion of Prince Karim accepting guidance from the Begum—or anyone else for that matter.

He was Imam in his own right.

As if to underline her own right, the Begum at the head of a large retinue of women paid another visit to the Mausoleum a few weeks later. To reporters she talked with some bitterness about the Aswan incident: 'Prince Karim did not want me to follow the procession on the grounds of Ismaili rites,' she said. ' If I went to the Mausoleum contrary to his wishes, it was only because I was tired and did not want to wait for hours in the gilded armchair in which I was to sit.'
Members of her late husband's family, she added, did not speak to
her and left the day after the ceremony without taking leave of her:
I know that Prince Karim does not have the slightest intention of following his grandfather's wishes so far as I am concerned . . .' Ten years later, when I mentioned the incident, the Aga Khan dismissed it as a minor misunderstanding about religious etiquette which was best forgotten: 'The Begum is European . . . ' was all he said by way of explanation."

Do you think from the above that the Begum could have been a murid of the Imam at that time?

Please make note of few sentences in above paragraph.
1.But when the funeral was over, the coolness between him and abd the begum was evident.
2.The Imam of the time had been publicly defied by the widow of his predecessor.
3.The incident caused a rift which was not healed for several years.
4.It certainly put an end to any notion of Prince Karim accepting guidance from the begum.
5.To reporters she talked with some bitterness about Aswan incident.
6. Members of her late husband,s family, she added , did not speak to her and left the day after the ceremony.
7. I know that Prince Karim does not have the slightest intention of following his grand father's wishes so far I am concerned.
You can feel the bitterness on both sides.
Imam orders his followers and not non Ismailis.
salimkhoja786
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Post by salimkhoja786 »

Admin wrote:
salimkhoja786 wrote: Both wives of Imam became Muslims and changed to Islamic names and became Ismailis
None became Ismaili. They became Muslim and after that married the Imam. if you have any evidence that they became Ismaili while married to the Imam put it here else do not make misleading statements.

Mata Salamat became Ismaili AFTER Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah died, when she recognised Shah Karim Hazar Imam as her Imam and did bayat.

To accompany Imam in jamatkhana or even Darbar does not make one an Ismaili. Else even Gandhi or Bhutto accompanied the Imam in darbar so are you saying they were Ismaili? What nonsense!

In my opinion there is difference in between Imam's wives and other persons.
You know the account of the burial ceremony of MSMS described by WILLI
FRISSCHAUER, in the book 'THE AGA KHANS', ON PAGE 280. There was bitterness between Begum Saheba and Imam for not obeying order of Imam.
Imam give order to murids and not non Ismailis.
I asked an elder 80+ years old and he confirmed Mata Salamat was an Ismaili during life time of MSMS and on many occasions accompany Imam during didars and sat beside him.
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Post by Admin »

salimkhoja786 wrote: I asked an elder 80+ years old and he confirmed Mata Salamat was an Ismaili during life time of MSMS and on many occasions accompany Imam during didars and sat beside him.

Haha... If this is what you call a proof, please recycle yourself.
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Post by Admin »

I have noticed that this section on the Quran as per the Preamble of the Constitution is becoming a hotchpot of anything and everything. After 40 pages, that is normal. I will be locking this thread.

I suggest that you all search for the appropriate thread to post. Some other sections also have the same trend. And when there are too many pages in one section, people tend to post again and again the same thing without reading what has been posted already.
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