Recycling of souls.

[tret]

Another Ithnashari believe, according yo them every Imam is another Imam, to them there is no concept Noor and we can cleary see that in you.

So what do you think, Imam Shah hassan ali, Imam aga Ali Shah and Imam Sultan mohd Shah who cleary declared them self Allah in there many Farmans are possesor of different Noor than Hazir Imam.

There is another Baitul Khayal Farman, in which Hazir Imam indirectly said Imam is Allah. The above Farman you wrote is right and I listen that Framan many times but there is another Farman just search it.

Well I'm not shocked why Imam is not declaring to be Allah in his Farmans, because Pir had aware us about this nature of Imam , which is " Imams actions and Farmans are always related the faith of Murid"

Did anyone noticed one thing in golden jubilee deedars and darbars movies

whenever Imam meets members of jamati institutions, Imam use to give them speeches, what I've noticed in almost every movie is that when any member of Jamat come for speech and if he use word Khudawand for Imam, Then Imam give speeches without any paper, glasses etc but when any jamati member use word Hazir Imam in there speech, Imam use glasses and paper for his speech.

If anyone didn't noticed that, just go through those movies.

Is there any other wall in your apartment so that you bang bang your head there again. If you accept the farman which I quoted then;
WHY THIS KOLAVERI KOLAVERI KOLAVERI DI.

And we've quoted other Farmans by Hazar Imam - that you ignore - so why this soapbox?

having a crisis of faith? and seeking validation by bashing up other people's faith?

You have your beliefs - we have ours.

This isn't an institutionally mandated site - it is run and maintained by volunteers - if you don't like it - feel free to go somewhere else and create your own.

just like you have issues with what people are saying about Hazar Imam or Ali being Allah etc...
we have issues with you issuing your Sunni Fatwas - you don't represent all the ismailies or ismaili theology the same was as we don't.
You speak of building a bridge with the Ummah - which Ummah? the Muslim Ummah - do we understand enough of our faith? we don't.
Your posts reek of Sunnistic thoughts when we are clearly Shia -
First understand Shia doctine and theology (Kmaherali can help you there)
Then focus on what Hazar Imam insists upon - that we are a SUFI tariqah - we are ESOTERIC - we focus on the BATIN - nothing else matters..and if we focus on the BATIN than the physical body of the IMAM is just an illusion - it is a means for the LIGHT TO MANIFEST
Hazar Imam has clearly stated that the Imam is the MAZHAR of ALLAH - Mazhar - meaning Manifestation - now how you interpret that - is very different than how a lot of us interpret that....
And btw - we are a TARIQAH - not a SHARIAH - Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah has clearly stated the difference in the USUL-E-DIN Farman...

So going back to the point about the BATIN - if the Physical really doesn't matter - than all that matters is the BATIN and in the BATIN - the LIGHT is the LIGHT...

If you can't get beyond the physical - that is your problem.

FYI - seek out the Farman I referred to - where Hazar Imam asks about Malik-i-nass - it was made in Pakistan in 1964 or 1967.
Though examining your narrowmindedness - and your insecurity about your own identity - i don't think you will grasp it....

Once again - you have your interpretation of the Murid Murshid relationship and that is right
and I have mine, as does Kmaherali have his and Admin has his - and it okay for each one of us to have a different understanding of that relationship...
and allowing each one to have that relationship is pluralism - because all of those interpretations are correct...

Using Nusayri's example with Hazrat Ali - the Truth is the Truth and nothing can change that....

So - stop being Taliban and ISIS and issuing your fatwas.
Live and let live.

Admin - maybe it is time to start banning Mazhar/SalimKhoja/Sameer - whatever else he calls himself/herself - zznoor...??

Question: One of the myths surrounding you is that some people in the West think of you as a living God. Not only is that not true, it is also blasphemous.

Aga Khan: "Absolutely. I mean as you know the faith of Islam was revealed at a time when the Arabian continent was idolatrous and idolatry, all forms of idolatry, are totally prohibited by Islam.

It is certainly true to say that the Western world doesn’t necessarily understand the theology of Shi’ism nor indeed the theology of many mystical sects whether they are Shia or Sunni or Christian. Mysticism, in its, in its essence is difficult."

- Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni, Aga Khan IV


******************

The above is from an Interview, where MHI clearly rejects the notion of God/Living God to the Imam. Now, you guys might say 'oh that's because it's public interview'.

But, the Imam refers to a very important element, which is Sh'ism Theology. One NEEDS to understand this, in order to be able to understand the Essence and Position/Rank of the Imam, within Shia [Ismaili] context.

It appears that NEITHER western [including some other non-shia communities] NOR folks around this forum have a good understanding of Sh'ia Theology. I am not judging, but it appears this way. Because they both have similar understand of the Imam. They both think the Imam is God.

My question to folks here [specifically those who claims Imam is God], is: do you understand Sh'ia Theology, as MHI emphasized above? Remember, I am not referring to verses of Ginan or Qasida, but I am talking about the Teachings of the Imams and His Hujjats, since Imam Ali.

Now, if one truly understand Shi'a Theology, then he would understand, for example, when Imam Ali said I am the First and Last or I am the creator, and other statements as such, doesn't AT ALL imply that Imam is God. Only those who don't understand Shia Theology, would immediately think, Imam is God. Because, Ismailis are THE ONLY interpretation of Islam who truly understand the Tawhid, as it has been explained by elite Ismailis Hujjats/Dais.

And people are free to consider who/what they wish as their gods. But, I believe it's important to UNDERLINE and make very CLEAR that it is ONLY their belief and opinion, and DOES NOT represent Ismaili Tariqa's position and don't issue takfir, the same way as this website doesn't represent any Institution of the Imam.

[ShamsB]

Is there any other wall in your apartment so that you bang bang your head there again. If you accept the farman which I quoted then;
WHY THIS KOLAVERI KOLAVERI KOLAVERI DI.

And we've quoted other Farmans by Hazar Imam - that you ignore - so why this soapbox?

having a crisis of faith? and seeking validation by bashing up other people's faith?

You have your beliefs - we have ours.

This isn't an institutionally mandated site - it is run and maintained by volunteers - if you don't like it - feel free to go somewhere else and create your own.

just like you have issues with what people are saying about Hazar Imam or Ali being Allah etc...
we have issues with you issuing your Sunni Fatwas - you don't represent all the ismailies or ismaili theology the same was as we don't.
You speak of building a bridge with the Ummah - which Ummah? the Muslim Ummah - do we understand enough of our faith? we don't.
Your posts reek of Sunnistic thoughts when we are clearly Shia -
First understand Shia doctine and theology (Kmaherali can help you there)
Then focus on what Hazar Imam insists upon - that we are a SUFI tariqah - we are ESOTERIC - we focus on the BATIN - nothing else matters..and if we focus on the BATIN than the physical body of the IMAM is just an illusion - it is a means for the LIGHT TO MANIFEST
Hazar Imam has clearly stated that the Imam is the MAZHAR of ALLAH - Mazhar - meaning Manifestation - now how you interpret that - is very different than how a lot of us interpret that....
And btw - we are a TARIQAH - not a SHARIAH - Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah has clearly stated the difference in the USUL-E-DIN Farman...

So going back to the point about the BATIN - if the Physical really doesn't matter - than all that matters is the BATIN and in the BATIN - the LIGHT is the LIGHT...

If you can't get beyond the physical - that is your problem.

FYI - seek out the Farman I referred to - where Hazar Imam asks about Malik-i-nass - it was made in Pakistan in 1964 or 1967.
Though examining your narrowmindedness - and your insecurity about your own identity - i don't think you will grasp it....

Once again - you have your interpretation of the Murid Murshid relationship and that is right
and I have mine, as does Kmaherali have his and Admin has his - and it okay for each one of us to have a different understanding of that relationship...
and allowing each one to have that relationship is pluralism - because all of those interpretations are correct...

Using Nusayri's example with Hazrat Ali - the Truth is the Truth and nothing can change that....

So - stop being Taliban and ISIS and issuing your fatwas.
Live and let live.

Admin - maybe it is time to start banning Mazhar/SalimKhoja/Sameer - whatever else he calls himself/herself - zznoor...??

Question: One of the myths surrounding you is that some people in the West think of you as a living God. Not only is that not true, it is also blasphemous.

Aga Khan: "Absolutely. I mean as you know the faith of Islam was revealed at a time when the Arabian continent was idolatrous and idolatry, all forms of idolatry, are totally prohibited by Islam.

It is certainly true to say that the Western world doesn’t necessarily understand the theology of Shi’ism nor indeed the theology of many mystical sects whether they are Shia or Sunni or Christian. Mysticism, in its, in its essence is difficult."

- Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni, Aga Khan IV


******************

The above is from an Interview, where MHI clearly rejects the notion of God/Living God to the Imam. Now, you guys might say 'oh that's because it's public interview'.

But, the Imam refers to a very important element, which is Sh'ism Theology. One NEEDS to understand this, in order to be able to understand the Essence and Position/Rank of the Imam, within Shia [Ismaili] context.

It appears that NEITHER western [including some other non-shia communities] NOR folks around this forum have a good understanding of Sh'ia Theology. I am not judging, but it appears this way. Because they both have similar understand of the Imam. They both think the Imam is God.

My question to folks here [specifically those who claims Imam is God], is: do you understand Sh'ia Theology, as MHI emphasized above? Remember, I am not referring to verses of Ginan or Qasida, but I am talking about the Teachings of the Imams and His Hujjats, since Imam Ali.

Now, if one truly understand Shi'a Theology, then he would understand, for example, when Imam Ali said I am the First and Last or I am the creator, and other statements as such, doesn't AT ALL imply that Imam is God. Only those who don't understand Shia Theology, would immediately think, Imam is God. Because, Ismailis are THE ONLY interpretation of Islam who truly understand the Tawhid, as it has been explained by elite Ismailis Hujjats/Dais.

And people are free to consider who/what they wish as their gods. But, I believe it's important to UNDERLINE and make very CLEAR that it is ONLY their belief and opinion, and DOES NOT represent Ismaili Tariqa's position and don't issue takfir, the same way as this website doesn't represent any Institution of the Imam.

Read carefully - and watch the video carefully - Hazar Imam's response is VERY AMBIGUOUS.

He doesn't say He's not God or that He is.

Is he saying Absolutely that he is A living God - ? btw He'd be THE living God - the interviewer in my opinion asked the question incorrectly - implying there were more living or dead gods.

One doesn't know what he's responding to - also keep in mind - the body is not what we consider Allah- you missed my point of the Batin.

And to me idolatory and what was being practiced was IDOL worship - somehow I don't think we who believe Ali is Allah are idolators.

Hazar Imam also talks about Mysticism in it's essence being difficult.

The issue I think is when we say Ali - most folks immediately go the physical body of the Imam - when it is not the physical body - as the Imam has said - we are an Esoteric Tariqah....

But as you said - everyone is free to consider and follow what they believe and what they want to believe.

As this demonstrates - we both look at the same interview and come with very different conclusions from it

Shams

[tret]

And we've quoted other Farmans by Hazar Imam - that you ignore - so why this soapbox?

having a crisis of faith? and seeking validation by bashing up other people's faith?

You have your beliefs - we have ours.

This isn't an institutionally mandated site - it is run and maintained by volunteers - if you don't like it - feel free to go somewhere else and create your own.

just like you have issues with what people are saying about Hazar Imam or Ali being Allah etc...
we have issues with you issuing your Sunni Fatwas - you don't represent all the ismailies or ismaili theology the same was as we don't.
You speak of building a bridge with the Ummah - which Ummah? the Muslim Ummah - do we understand enough of our faith? we don't.
Your posts reek of Sunnistic thoughts when we are clearly Shia -
First understand Shia doctine and theology (Kmaherali can help you there)
Then focus on what Hazar Imam insists upon - that we are a SUFI tariqah - we are ESOTERIC - we focus on the BATIN - nothing else matters..and if we focus on the BATIN than the physical body of the IMAM is just an illusion - it is a means for the LIGHT TO MANIFEST
Hazar Imam has clearly stated that the Imam is the MAZHAR of ALLAH - Mazhar - meaning Manifestation - now how you interpret that - is very different than how a lot of us interpret that....
And btw - we are a TARIQAH - not a SHARIAH - Imam Sultan Mohammad Shah has clearly stated the difference in the USUL-E-DIN Farman...

So going back to the point about the BATIN - if the Physical really doesn't matter - than all that matters is the BATIN and in the BATIN - the LIGHT is the LIGHT...

If you can't get beyond the physical - that is your problem.

FYI - seek out the Farman I referred to - where Hazar Imam asks about Malik-i-nass - it was made in Pakistan in 1964 or 1967.
Though examining your narrowmindedness - and your insecurity about your own identity - i don't think you will grasp it....

Once again - you have your interpretation of the Murid Murshid relationship and that is right
and I have mine, as does Kmaherali have his and Admin has his - and it okay for each one of us to have a different understanding of that relationship...
and allowing each one to have that relationship is pluralism - because all of those interpretations are correct...

Using Nusayri's example with Hazrat Ali - the Truth is the Truth and nothing can change that....

So - stop being Taliban and ISIS and issuing your fatwas.
Live and let live.

Admin - maybe it is time to start banning Mazhar/SalimKhoja/Sameer - whatever else he calls himself/herself - zznoor...??

Question: One of the myths surrounding you is that some people in the West think of you as a living God. Not only is that not true, it is also blasphemous.

Aga Khan: "Absolutely. I mean as you know the faith of Islam was revealed at a time when the Arabian continent was idolatrous and idolatry, all forms of idolatry, are totally prohibited by Islam.

It is certainly true to say that the Western world doesn’t necessarily understand the theology of Shi’ism nor indeed the theology of many mystical sects whether they are Shia or Sunni or Christian. Mysticism, in its, in its essence is difficult."

- Imam Shah Karim al-Husayni, Aga Khan IV


******************

The above is from an Interview, where MHI clearly rejects the notion of God/Living God to the Imam. Now, you guys might say 'oh that's because it's public interview'.

But, the Imam refers to a very important element, which is Sh'ism Theology. One NEEDS to understand this, in order to be able to understand the Essence and Position/Rank of the Imam, within Shia [Ismaili] context.

It appears that NEITHER western [including some other non-shia communities] NOR folks around this forum have a good understanding of Sh'ia Theology. I am not judging, but it appears this way. Because they both have similar understand of the Imam. They both think the Imam is God.

My question to folks here [specifically those who claims Imam is God], is: do you understand Sh'ia Theology, as MHI emphasized above? Remember, I am not referring to verses of Ginan or Qasida, but I am talking about the Teachings of the Imams and His Hujjats, since Imam Ali.

Now, if one truly understand Shi'a Theology, then he would understand, for example, when Imam Ali said I am the First and Last or I am the creator, and other statements as such, doesn't AT ALL imply that Imam is God. Only those who don't understand Shia Theology, would immediately think, Imam is God. Because, Ismailis are THE ONLY interpretation of Islam who truly understand the Tawhid, as it has been explained by elite Ismailis Hujjats/Dais.

And people are free to consider who/what they wish as their gods. But, I believe it's important to UNDERLINE and make very CLEAR that it is ONLY their belief and opinion, and DOES NOT represent Ismaili Tariqa's position and don't issue takfir, the same way as this website doesn't represent any Institution of the Imam.

Read carefully - and watch the video carefully - Hazar Imam's response is VERY AMBIGUOUS.

He doesn't say He's not God or that He is.

Is he saying Absolutely that he is A living God - ? btw He'd be THE living God - the interviewer in my opinion asked the question incorrectly - implying there were more living or dead gods.

One doesn't know what he's responding to - also keep in mind - the body is not what we consider Allah- you missed my point of the Batin.

And to me idolatory and what was being practiced was IDOL worship - somehow I don't think we who believe Ali is Allah are idolators.

Hazar Imam also talks about Mysticism in it's essence being difficult.

The issue I think is when we say Ali - most folks immediately go the physical body of the Imam - when it is not the physical body - as the Imam has said - we are an Esoteric Tariqah....

But as you said - everyone is free to consider and follow what they believe and what they want to believe.

As this demonstrates - we both look at the same interview and come with very different conclusions from it

Shams

People want to hear what they want to hear.

Pay very close attention, where Imam puts emphasis. Watch the video.

Imam emphasizes on Shia Theology, you failed to even reply to my comment concerning Shia Theology.

Let's put that aside.

What about other sects, such as sufi and other interpretations who deal with mysticism? Do they also consider their Murshid as God (A God or The God)?
Then the question arise, who's right and who's wrong? Logically, this can't add up.

[ShamsB]

There is a reason it's called a "leap of faith"...


or to us Satpanthis - the Pir said it best.

"Ishq Aql Bhulaya"...

At least we can agree to disagree...

Shams

[kmaherali]

Imam is talking about OCEAN of oceans.

Imam tells us that we return to the Ocean, just as the Qur'an says that we return to Allah. The Ocean of Ocean does not make sense!!

The Ocean is 'He who is above all else" - our final destination. Hence Imam = Allah.

[kmaherali]

whenever Imam meets members of jamati institutions, Imam use to give them speeches, what I've noticed in almost every movie is that when any member of Jamat come for speech and if he use word Khudawand for Imam, Then Imam give speeches without any paper, glasses etc but when any jamati member use word Hazir Imam in there speech, Imam use glasses and paper for his speech.

According to my recollection the Imam never read any speeches during the institutional dinners of the GJ celebrations.

[kmaherali]

My question to folks here [specifically those who claims Imam is God], is: do you understand Sh'ia Theology, as MHI emphasized above? Remember, I am not referring to verses of Ginan or Qasida, but I am talking about the Teachings of the Imams and His Hujjats, since Imam Ali..

There is no need to go into history. MSMS has clearly indicated what Shia Theology is in his Memoirs:

"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout. The Sunnis, however, consider him the fourth in the succession of Khalifs to temporal power."

So Imamat according to Shia Theology is all-encompassing. It is illahi nass, rabban nass and malikinaas. The Imam is God (Divine Power), Pir (Guide) and temporal leader (leadership).

Because, Ismailis are THE ONLY interpretation of Islam who truly understand the Tawhid, as it has been explained by elite Ismailis Hujjats/Dais..

Memoirs is very clear, no need to refer to the Hujjats/Dais of the past.

[kmaherali]

Then the question arise, who's right and who's wrong? Logically, this can't add up.

We can have multiple Mazhars of Allah at a given time. There is no issue about that. The only difference between Imamat and other Sufi Masters, is that Imams are born pure - they don't need to be purified by any other source - Light upon Light as though no fire touched it.

[ismaili103]

According to my recollection the Imam never read any speeches during the institutional dinners of the GJ celebrations.

I know that was not speech, Imam talk with them for 10 to 15 minutes, the most nearest word I got is speech.

[ismaili103]

Imam is talking about OCEAN of oceans

Thats interesting becuause the word "Aga Khan" literally means King of Kings, lord of lord.

So yes, Imam is indeed Allah of the Allah of 1.6 billion.

[salimkhoja786]

There is a reason it's called a "leap of faith"...


or to us Satpanthis - the Pir said it best.

"Ishq Aql Bhulaya"...

At least we can agree to disagree...

Shams

ISHQ AQAL BHULLAYA NARGIS FAKHRI KEY LIYE!

[salimkhoja786]

Imam is talking about OCEAN of oceans.

Imam tells us that we return to the Ocean, just as the Qur'an says that we return to Allah. The Ocean of Ocean does not make sense!!

The Ocean is 'He who is above all else" - our final destination. Hence Imam = Allah.

The farman I quoted of present Imam is false or true?
Words speak for themselves.
HE who is above all else. here HE is used for ALLAH the OCEAN of oceans.

[ismaili103]

ISHQ AQAL BHULLAYA NARGIS FAKHRI KEY LIYE!

Making fun of Ginans, Pirs, Imams and his Farmans is nothing new for you.

[salimkhoja786]

whenever Imam meets members of jamati institutions, Imam use to give them speeches, what I've noticed in almost every movie is that when any member of Jamat come for speech and if he use word Khudawand for Imam, Then Imam give speeches without any paper, glasses etc but when any jamati member use word Hazir Imam in there speech, Imam use glasses and paper for his speech.

According to my recollection the Imam never read any speeches during the institutional dinners of the GJ celebrations.

According to audiences, as you wrote quite few times.
The speeches of Hazar Imam is mostly written by staff members and final changes are made by Imam. Imam makes extempore framan or speech because he is well aware of jamaiti institutions and their problems which staff don't know.

[salimkhoja786]

ISHQ AQAL BHULLAYA NARGIS FAKHRI KEY LIYE!

Making fun of Ginans, Pirs, Imams and his Farmans is nothing new for you.

Excuse me, I have not mentioned name of pir. It is in general terms. 'Ishiq Aqal bhullaya' is a common phrase used in Persian, Sindhi, Punjabi, Hindi and Gujrati poetry.

[salimkhoja786]

My question to folks here [specifically those who claims Imam is God], is: do you understand Sh'ia Theology, as MHI emphasized above? Remember, I am not referring to verses of Ginan or Qasida, but I am talking about the Teachings of the Imams and His Hujjats, since Imam Ali..

There is no need to go into history. MSMS has clearly indicated what Shia Theology is in his Memoirs:

"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout. The Sunnis, however, consider him the fourth in the succession of Khalifs to temporal power."

So Imamat according to Shia Theology is all-encompassing. It is illahi nass, rabban nass and malikinaas. The Imam is God (Divine Power), Pir (Guide) and temporal leader (leadership).

Because, Ismailis are THE ONLY interpretation of Islam who truly understand the Tawhid, as it has been explained by elite Ismailis Hujjats/Dais..

Memoirs is very clear, no need to refer to the Hujjats/Dais of the past.

According to Talika Memoirs was written for westerners and is not a book comprise of farmans.

[ShamsB]

My question to folks here [specifically those who claims Imam is God], is: do you understand Sh'ia Theology, as MHI emphasized above? Remember, I am not referring to verses of Ginan or Qasida, but I am talking about the Teachings of the Imams and His Hujjats, since Imam Ali..

There is no need to go into history. MSMS has clearly indicated what Shia Theology is in his Memoirs:

"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout. The Sunnis, however, consider him the fourth in the succession of Khalifs to temporal power."

So Imamat according to Shia Theology is all-encompassing. It is illahi nass, rabban nass and malikinaas. The Imam is God (Divine Power), Pir (Guide) and temporal leader (leadership).

Because, Ismailis are THE ONLY interpretation of Islam who truly understand the Tawhid, as it has been explained by elite Ismailis Hujjats/Dais..

Memoirs is very clear, no need to refer to the Hujjats/Dais of the past.

According to Talika Memoirs was written for westerners and is not a book comprise of farmans.

So how come you didn't call Tret out for using an interview given to a Western Journalist - that wasn't readily made available to the Jamat unlike other events?

Apply the same standard to all postings - versus picking and choosing.

Shams

[salimkhoja786]

Then the question arise, who's right and who's wrong? Logically, this can't add up.

We can have multiple Mazhars of Allah at a given time. There is no issue about that. The only difference between Imamat and other Sufi Masters, is that Imams are born pure - they don't need to be purified by any other source - Light upon Light as though no fire touched it.

Multiple of MAZHARS in a given time is confusing. How you will explain this theory to rest of one billion Muslims AND PARTICULARLY OUR YOUTH. You have written once merged with God becomes God. Then, HUM TUM DONO SAIYA(N) EEK HAI(N).

[salimkhoja786]

There is no need to go into history. MSMS has clearly indicated what Shia Theology is in his Memoirs:

"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout. The Sunnis, however, consider him the fourth in the succession of Khalifs to temporal power."

So Imamat according to Shia Theology is all-encompassing. It is illahi nass, rabban nass and malikinaas. The Imam is God (Divine Power), Pir (Guide) and temporal leader (leadership). Memoirs is very clear, no need to refer to the Hujjats/Dais of the past.

According to Talika Memoirs was written for westerners and is not a book comprise of farmans.

So how come you didn't call Tret out for using an interview given to a Western Journalist - that wasn't readily made available to the Jamat unlike other events?

Apply the same standard to all postings - versus picking and choosing.

Shams

I prefer farman. I have quoted one of 1966 which you discussed but not accepting it. Imam said;
THROUGH NOOR OF ALI, THROUGH NOOR OF IMAMAT ONE SEEK TO COME CLOSE TO HE WHO IS ABOVE ALL ELSE. Above all else is Allah.
Interviews and articles clearify further and enhance the vision.

[salimkhoja786]

Imam is talking about OCEAN of oceans

Thats interesting becuause the word "Aga Khan" literally means King of Kings, lord of lord.

So yes, Imam is indeed Allah of the Allah of 1.6 billion.

SAME MINDLESS RHETORIC. IT IS COMPLETELY BLASPHEMOUS. IT IS NOT HURTING ME BUT SURELY FOR THE KHOJAS/MOMINAS OF PAKISTAN.

[Admin]

I prefer farman. I have quoted one of 1966 which you discussed but not accepting it. Imam said;
THROUGH NOOR OF ALI, THROUGH NOOR OF IMAMAT ONE SEEK TO COME CLOSE TO HE WHO IS ABOVE ALL ELSE. Above all else is Allah.
Interviews and articles clearify further and enhance the vision.

I suggest you educate yourself first. Where do you see the name Allah in the quoted sentence?

Allah has attributes. Read the difference of He Who is Above all Else and Allah in the Encyclopedia of Islam under "Allah."\ There is the defining of Allah as understood by the Muslims in general and there is a special paragraph on Allah in Ismailism.

So please do not mix-up and try to make the Imam say what he has not said. I am really annoyed at your habit of misleading people by making it look like it is part of what Imam said. This has been going on and on in many of your posts.

[ShamsB]

According to Talika Memoirs was written for westerners and is not a book comprise of farmans.

So how come you didn't call Tret out for using an interview given to a Western Journalist - that wasn't readily made available to the Jamat unlike other events?

Apply the same standard to all postings - versus picking and choosing.

Shams

I prefer farman. I have quoted one of 1966 which you discussed but not accepting it. Imam said;
THROUGH NOOR OF ALI, THROUGH NOOR OF IMAMAT ONE SEEK TO COME CLOSE TO HE WHO IS ABOVE ALL ELSE. Above all else is Allah.
Interviews and articles clearify further and enhance the vision.

I didn't quote it - someone else did.
I actually quoted a 1967 Farman or was it 1964 where Hazar Imam talks about Malik-i-nass - and you have refused to look for that Farman.
Which actually makes my point for me...you pick and choose what you want to believe...
and the interviews and articles actually make the argument for us.

I was pointing out how duplicitous your approach is - on the one hand - you don't want to accept ALL Farmans only those that you deem necessary - and on the other hand you're calling out the interviews.

At the same time - you bring up that Ali can't be Allah because the Imam hasn't said it in Public? last i checked farmans weren't available for public consumption...and in the interview quoted - we pointed out a different interpretation than what was accepted...or we could talk about Nusayri till the cows came home - and you wouldn't accept it ...

the issue is - you're so adamant and radicalized that you want to all of us to accept your version as the only acceptable version - and in that myopia - you aren't willing or interested in learning about other points of view.

As I said - this is a board funded by volunteers - you don't have a right to be here - being here a privilege.

The intent of this forum is an open exchange of ideas and tolerance...if you can't accept or tolerate that - feel free to leave.

And last I checked - no talikah or farman came from the Imam to follow your radical or zealot interpretation of Sunni Ismailism.

Shams

[kmaherali]

According to Talika Memoirs was written for westerners and is not a book comprise of farmans.

The statement about Shia Theology was made in a television interview for the general audience. The Memoirs statement was also made to the general audience so it was appropriate as opposed to quoting a Farman which is restricted for the murids.

[kmaherali]

Multiple of MAZHARS in a given time is confusing. How you will explain this theory to rest of one billion Muslims AND PARTICULARLY OUR YOUTH. You have written once merged with God becomes God. Then, HUM TUM DONO SAIYA(N) EEK HAI(N).

The notion of multiple Mazhars is the quintessence of Sufism. The goal and purpose in life is to attain Fanna fi Allah. Hence we can have many individuals who are Fanna at a given time. Whether they are recognised as such is a different matter.

Do you think that our youth would not understand the fundamentals of Sufism? Didn't MHI make the Farman about Al-hallaj to students of night school?

[kmaherali]

Multiple of MAZHARS in a given time is confusing. How you will explain this theory to rest of one billion Muslims AND PARTICULARLY OUR YOUTH. You have written once merged with God becomes God. Then, HUM TUM DONO SAIYA(N) EEK HAI(N).

The notion of multiple Mazhars is the quintessence of Sufism. The goal and purpose in life is to attain Fanna fi Allah. Hence we can have many individuals who are Fanna at a given time. Whether they are recognised as such is a different matter.

Do you think that our youth are so stupid that they would not understand the fundamentals of Sufism? Didn't MHI make the Farman about Al-hallaj to students of night school?

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
I liked the refined posting of ShamsB to the leaving creature to just get lost.
Firstly as a devout Ismaili(faithful is higher status).
First come the UNDERSTANDING not copy pasting of Farman,then Quran only if can understand deeply,Ginan an qasidas of ruhaniyat essence, then come doctrines of Marfati named by Imam(rumi,tabriz& Pirs),these are part n parcel of what say hear or read in Jk.
Lastly intellectual scholars work like Tusi,qadi,Corbin,and twenty others.
If one does accept or understand first three words any farman is unfit Ismaili nor needed in debates.it can be a reader.
This forum being open to all & sundry,even students do not become professors on entry.
MHI say My Spiritual Children..
He has not used the father because by default he is our Spiritual Father.only a fool will say he did use the word Father.even that word was used recently by MHI.
being ignorant by NOT accepting him as Spiritual Father in straying away from Bayat.
Only GOD is the owner, source and Father of all souls in the world. He has no partner,or deputy or Intercessor. So who is MHI ?
No second guess.
As faith has varying levels.lower level is like a donkey braying.
A heard story.(pls confirm it)
In didar in a western country,after jamati work MHI gave mulakaat/ didar to Non Ismaili Father. One Christian spouse of an Ismaili asked MHI if he was their Spiritual Father.He said not only of hers ,all Christians but of all whole human population.
So by not accepting or understanding first three words,one can definitely assume that person poor reading n understanding words of any 5 levels of material I have mentioned the order.
At tawhid one feel oneness with God ,blissful feeling.Although he does not get the remote control of the universe,He/she does not become Mazar but If can direct and show God to humanity one can attain on of it status like Hujjat.I feel like that of a top line order.
For me no millions words are needed,just two words for Ibadaat and His farman greetings to us for my Imaan.

[salimkhoja786]

So how come you didn't call Tret out for using an interview given to a Western Journalist - that wasn't readily made available to the Jamat unlike other events?

Apply the same standard to all postings - versus picking and choosing.

Shams

I prefer farman. I have quoted one of 1966 which you discussed but not accepting it. Imam said;
THROUGH NOOR OF ALI, THROUGH NOOR OF IMAMAT ONE SEEK TO COME CLOSE TO HE WHO IS ABOVE ALL ELSE. Above all else is Allah.
Interviews and articles clearify further and enhance the vision.

I didn't quote it - someone else did.
I actually quoted a 1967 Farman or was it 1964 where Hazar Imam talks about Malik-i-nass - and you have refused to look for that Farman.
Which actually makes my point for me...you pick and choose what you want to believe...
and the interviews and articles actually make the argument for us.

I was pointing out how duplicitous your approach is - on the one hand - you don't want to accept ALL Farmans only those that you deem necessary - and on the other hand you're calling out the interviews.

At the same time - you bring up that Ali can't be Allah because the Imam hasn't said it in Public? last i checked farmans weren't available for public consumption...and in the interview quoted - we pointed out a different interpretation than what was accepted...or we could talk about Nusayri till the cows came home - and you wouldn't accept it ...

the issue is - you're so adamant and radicalized that you want to all of us to accept your version as the only acceptable version - and in that myopia - you aren't willing or interested in learning about other points of view.

As I said - this is a board funded by volunteers - you don't have a right to be here - being here a privilege.

The intent of this forum is an open exchange of ideas and tolerance...if you can't accept or tolerate that - feel free to leave.

And last I checked - no talikah or farman came from the Imam to follow your radical or zealot interpretation of Sunni Ismailism.

Shams

First you make up your mind 1964 farman or 1967 farman! I accept all genuine farmans.
The advice you have given me to leave this forum I am returning IT to you. Already a descent post of mine addressed to you in reply of your previous post is deleted by Admin. He is disappearing my polite and descent posts.If you have no guts to answer me properly and debate delicately then what can I say wise man. You wrote this is a board funded by volunteers. Well if there is any fee or Admin wants I can pay for it. NOT A BIGGI. I follow Imam's farmans which are simple and clear but persons like you, are trying to distort to satisfy your ideology of previous yugs. There are radicalized Ismailis worst than Taliban, They can't talk on open forums in public but keep drumming the drums on this site to show their muscle. You and your like minded are
according to a Farsi proverb; MON TURA HAJI BIGOYAM, TU MARA HAJI BIGO.

[salimkhoja786]

Ya Ali Madad.
I liked the refined posting of ShamsB to the leaving creature to just get lost.
Firstly as a devout Ismaili(faithful is higher status).
First come the UNDERSTANDING not copy pasting of Farman,then Quran only if can understand deeply,Ginan an qasidas of ruhaniyat essence, then come doctrines of Marfati named by Imam(rumi,tabriz& Pirs),these are part n parcel of what say hear or read in Jk.
Lastly intellectual scholars work like Tusi,qadi,Corbin,and twenty others.
If one does accept or understand first three words any farman is unfit Ismaili nor needed in debates.it can be a reader.
This forum being open to all & sundry,even students do not become professors on entry.
MHI say My Spiritual Children..
He has not used the father because by default he is our Spiritual Father.only a fool will say he did use the word Father.even that word was used recently by MHI.
being ignorant by NOT accepting him as Spiritual Father in straying away from Bayat.
Only GOD is the owner, source and Father of all souls in the world. He has no partner,or deputy or Intercessor. So who is MHI ?
No second guess.
As faith has varying levels.lower level is like a donkey braying.
A heard story.(pls confirm it)
In didar in a western country,after jamati work MHI gave mulakaat/ didar to Non Ismaili Father. One Christian spouse of an Ismaili asked MHI if he was their Spiritual Father.He said not only of hers ,all Christians but of all whole human population.
So by not accepting or understanding first three words,one can definitely assume that person poor reading n understanding words of any 5 levels of material I have mentioned the order.
At tawhid one feel oneness with God ,blissful feeling.Although he does not get the remote control of the universe,He/she does not become Mazar but If can direct and show God to humanity one can attain on of it status like Hujjat.I feel like that of a top line order.
For me no millions words are needed,just two words for Ibadaat and His farman greetings to us for my Imaan.

Qadi Noaman wrote his famous book Da'aim al Islam with the permission and blessings of Imam Muiz.The book was so important that by decree Imam Muiz ask followers to remember the book by heart. In the first chapter Willayah paragraph 78 Qadi Noaman has written, I quote;" Ali came across certain persons
who were extremists in this matter. they were beguiled by Satan's machinations and they said;You are our God, our creator, our Provider. From you is our beginning and to you is our return. There upon Ali's face under went a great change; he perspired ; he trembled like a reed with fear of the glory of God. May His glory be great. A GREAT ANGER CAME UPON ALI, and he ordered those around him to dig a large pit and said; verily, I shall fill this pit with flesh and bone of these people and so he burnt them".

In paragraph 79 Qadi Noaman wrote," This is a well known story and in the time of Imams who succeeded Ali there were many such reports of considerable length, for instance, the one named Mughira bin sa'ed, may God curse him. He was one of companions of Imam Muhammad Baqir, but Satan seduced him. He asserted that Imam Baqir was God, exalted above all is Almighty God, the lord of the worlds. He claimed that Imam Baqir sent him as apostle. Many of his companions followed him and they were called Mughairyya after his name. The Imam came to know about this heresy and was angry, but he could not kill the heretics as Ali did. So Imam Baqir cursed Mughira and his followers and dissociated himself from him and his doctrine.

[salimkhoja786]

Another Ithnashari believe, according yo them every Imam is another Imam, to them there is no concept Noor and we can cleary see that in you.

So what do you think, Imam Shah hassan ali, Imam aga Ali Shah and Imam Sultan mohd Shah who cleary declared them self Allah in there many Farmans are possesor of different Noor than Hazir Imam.

There is another Baitul Khayal Farman, in which Hazir Imam indirectly said Imam is Allah. The above Farman you wrote is right and I listen that Framan many times but there is another Farman just search it.

Well I'm not shocked why Imam is not declaring to be Allah in his Farmans, because Pir had aware us about this nature of Imam , which is " Imams actions and Farmans are always related the faith of Murid"

Did anyone noticed one thing in golden jubilee deedars and darbars movies

whenever Imam meets members of jamati institutions, Imam use to give them speeches, what I've noticed in almost every movie is that when any member of Jamat come for speech and if he use word Khudawand for Imam, Then Imam give speeches without any paper, glasses etc but when any jamati member use word Hazir Imam in there speech, Imam use glasses and paper for his speech.

If anyone didn't noticed that, just go through those movies.

Is there any other wall in your apartment so that you bang bang your head there again. If you accept the farman which I quoted then;
WHY THIS KOLAVERI KOLAVERI KOLAVERI DI.

Admin - this is now becoming ridiculous. There is a concerted effort to keep shoving this whole notion of sunni ismailism down our throats - and i have noticed that this goes in circles - the individuals who have this narrow interpretation which is unyielding and salafist doesn't allow for any other - and upon being banned - keep coming back with the same futile garbage arguments. No matter how much proof or farmans or ayats or anything that is share - there doesn't seem to be a willingness to be openminded or have an attitude of learning or live and let live...there is a very self righteous attitude in a lot of Mazhar/SameerNoorani?/SalimKhoja - who knows how many more identities - zznoor?
and it seems that these individuals have monopolized the board and are self appointed police of what ismailism is.

I have noticed no real learning happens and those of us that used to post semi regularly are now not willing to post - as it falls on deaf ears.

maybe time to close down some of these threads? or permanently ban some individuals - not being wrong - but for not allowing others rights to beliefs..right or wrong.

Just my two cents.

Shams

The difference between you and me is, you say Ali is Allah, I say Ali is from Allah according to farman of present Imam. I follow the farman of present Imam.
KALEY BHOJAN JAMIYA TEENA AAJEY SHA WAKHAN RE.
Hosila rakho Shams ji, I have some more valid material printed by ITREB'S AND WILL KEEP ENLIGHTEN YOU PEOPLE, IF MY ACCOUNT IS NOT DELETED.
I am explaining Fatmi Ismailism and not Sunni Ismailim. By the way MSMS allowed Ismailis of subcontinent to follow Sunni Hanafi Tariqa in his tenure which was replaced by Fatimi Tariqa in 70's by present Imam.
Shams ji,
TUM RUTHHA NA KARO MERI JA(N) , MERI JAAN NIKAL JATI HAI.....
Hi to Nargis Fakhri......

[Admin]

I agree there are many flavours of Ismilism on this Board. There are Haqiqatis, Sufis, Shariatis, even Ithnashris or Sunni IsmaiSunni Islam or Hinduism. These people call themselves Ismailis?

Now you may ask how is it possible to be Ismaili and Sunni at the same time?

Well, this is the reality, many people call themselves Ismailis but are nothing but Sunni once you start dissecting their sources. So to reply to that question, yes one can not be both at the same time, at some point he has to choose his allegiances.

For example, Mowlana Sultan Muhammad Shah confirmed in a Farman the story about Nuseiri. Mowlana Aga Ali Shah gave the full story to explain. But if one would go back to some authors writing a thousand years ago to try to say Nuseiri was a Kafir, instead of following the Farman, I am not sure how he would be considered Ismaili. Now this comes not to Nuseiri's resuscitation story or him saying exactly what Mughira said but to the principle which is inherent to Ismailism.