Recycling of souls.

[kmaherali]

"Alcohol, for example, is forbidden to Moslems, but the Aga Khan takes wine when he wills, although he preaches abstinence and counsels the drinking of fruit juices. He can take wine without offending any religious scruples because, as he says himself, 'I am so holy that when I drink wine, it turns to water.'

This kind of understanding of the Mursheed is not restricted to our Tariqah. Mowlana Rumi in his Mathnavi writes:

II:3425 - 3432

One day 'A'isha said to the Prophet, "O Messenger of Allah, openly and secretly

Thou performest a prayer in whatever place thou mayst find, (even whilst) unclean and low (people) are running about in the house;

The Prophet said, " Know that God makes impure (things) pure for the (spiritually) great.

On that account the grace of God has made my place of worship to be pure (everywhere, even) up to the seventh tier(of Heaven)."

Beware and beware! Cease from envying the (spiritual) kings, else you will become a devil in the world.

For if he drink poison, it turns to honey; (but) if you eat honey, it is poison (to you);

For he has been changed, and his action has been changed: he has become the Grace (of God), and every fire in him has been turned into Light.

I:1602 - 1612

It does not harm the spiritualist (saint) though he drink deadly poison for all to see,

Because he has attained to (spiritual) health and has been set free from (the need for) abstinence, (while) the poor seeker (of God) is (still) in the (state of) fever.

The Prophet said, "O bold seeker, beware! Do not contend with any one who is sought."

In thee is a Nimrod: do not go into fire. If thou wish to go in, first become Abraham!

When thou art neither a swimmer nor a seaman, do not cast thyself (into the sea) from a (feeling of) self-conceit.

He (the saint) fetches pearls from the bottom of the sea, from losses he brings gain to the surface.

If a perfect man (saint) take earth, it becomes gold; if an imperfect one has carried away gold, it becomes ashes.

Since that righteous man is accepted of God, his hand in (all) things is the hand of God.

The hand of the imperfect man is the hand of Devil and demon, because he is in the trap of imposition and guile.

If ignorance come to him (the perfect man), it becomes knowledge, (but) the knowledge that goes into the imperfect man becomes ignorance.

[nuseri]

To kmaherali & living creature: Ya Ali Madad.
Is the word 'WINE' is mentioned in Quran?.If it there how many times it appears? If it is there what is that message?
Please copy paste if any ayats on it exists

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
I have my own observations.
I have been informed that only 20 orthodox Islamic countries from 53 enforce prohibition. It covers 5% of world population.for 95% it is not forbidden.there has be some reasons.
I have neither Orthodox nor liberal view.but as a moderate evangical view.
Drinking wine of alcohol content of 10% in moderation is looked upon as healthy by doctors. Look like a blessed living,may be?
I feel 92% of world country do no see it as forbidden or haraam.
Drinking high content 70% and above alcohol content liquor is a bad habit.
Getting drunk from any of above is a Sin.
Reacting it on family,society & damaging property is a grave sin and Crime.
One must know that pure sugar is alcohol.even our blood has sugar content.
Any opinion must be made with sound and solid reasoning.
The context,content and condition has to ascertain.in freezing cold temperatures, people n soldiers are told to drink hi percentage alcohol 75% and above to save themselves from DEATH.the alcohol act as medicine to keep blood warm,they do not get drunk at given quantity advised.
It is not easy to define with blinkers on what is haram or not haram.
Almost all cereal,fruits n vegetables has sugar content which is reflected in our blood.
First try to know the difference between wine and hard liqour.
How civil society looks at it.
What are the farmans on it ? Does it mention the word drinking or the word drunk as a Sin.
The most blessed weather locations has vineyard with rivers,something which may holy books relates it as heaven.
I have neutral view with for and against only after knowing alcoholic content,context and conditions before shouting hai hai touba touba.

[kmaherali]

To kmaherali & living creature: Ya Ali Madad.
Is the word 'WINE' is mentioned in Quran?.If it there how many times it appears? If it is there what is that message?
Please copy paste if any ayats on it exists

What has the Qur'an got to do with it? The Imam's statement indicates that wine is prohibited, else why would he turn it into water?

MHI made the following Farman:

"I would like My Jamats, I would like My spiritual children to remember that alcohol is not for you. You lose your honour, you waste your money and you create a very unpleasant impression of all those who drink alcohol and who go around drunk. This is a horrible habit and I do not want My spiritual children to indulge in this."(Mwanza, Tanzania, Thursday, November 10,1966.)

What amount is safe and what is not safe is arbitrary. If you say that a certain amount is safe and healthy, you open up all kinds of issues. Where do you draw the line and how do you regulate it. I drunkard may be delluded into thinking that he is drinking safe! How can one control that? Habits usually get started by taking small safe and healthy amounts and they grow into addiction. Generally difficult to control

[nuseri]

To kmaherali:Ya ALI madad.
I have specifically asked for or if any ayat containing the word wine.
MHI has spefically used the word alcohol and getting drunk or intoxicated from it.
Is red table wine defined as alcohol or fermented drink ?
In India beer n wine is classified as fermented liqour while whisky,rum,vodka is defined as
ALCOHOL as hard liqour.
As a data historian can you please quote the ayat.
The statement on Imam SMS made is false.
A powerful mind forget the soul can order is taste buds to feel like coke, beer,etc by drinking even plain water, It is vice versa.
So for a power of soul no wine was needed in the first place. Agakhani has rightly asked for photos and I ask for more eyewitness.
Your posting on Imam SMS is fake,fraud and stands null & void.Any tom dick & harry can make assume opinion when leaders toast their glasses filled with liquid.
Drinking alcohol defined by most countries is indeed a horrible habit.

[salimkhoja786]

Damage is already done. I received few e- mails condemning your wine post.
According to you it might be fine for some conservative murids but majority of educated Ismailis won't buy your argument. Karim this time you shot in your foot. It means Satanic Verses by Rushdi are right.
48TH IMAM CONSUMED ALCOHOL AND 49TH IMAM SAID HE NEVER TOUCHED ALCOHOL, WHAT A CONTRAST?
Your post opened the door for khoja Ismailis to consume liquor without religious harassment. Good job Karim.

Damage in the long run is only done by hiding relevant information. I made the post being well aware of the surprise that it may cause some. However I believe that it is the correct information for the Jamat to have in order to appreciate the deeper significance of Imamat beyond his worldly actions.

The contrast in style between the life of the 48th Imam and that of the 49th Imam should not be a matter of concern. Each Imam lives in his own time and behaves accordingly.

My post was intended to impress the notion that the Imam is not human like us and that his actions at times may appear incomprehensible and that we should not take guidance from his actions but what he tells us.

Those who consume alcohol based upon the Imam's actions have no understanding of Imamat.

WHY AFTER 58 YEARS...

MSMS passed away in 1957, I assume you should be kid at that time, Why after 58 years you raised this issue which was buried long ago and no one was talking about that. If Ismailis start believing in those two books which you mentioned means they should believe in TABLOID STORIES about Imam and his family or we accept the garbage on the U TUBE OR ACCEPT WHAT IS WRITTEN IN 'THRONE OF GOLD'.
I believe none of our IMAMS used alcohol. Let me quote from a e-mail received, I quote," What is the AGENDA of Heritage group they have stained the Institution of Imamah". Karachi walas are not happy with your post and your defenders.

[salimkhoja786]

As 103 has wrote above that there is no damage in the hearts of Khojas and Momnas becuase they believe that Imam can do any thing (if SMS had really consume wine,*!!!?? I would like to see that photo first) he can marry four times, can drink wine, race horses, or dance with any gals. we are doing just what he wants us to do!

*SMS consumed wine is questionable in my thinking because showing wine in that photo doesn't mean SMS had consumed it!!it might be for some white peoples or the guests who consumed wine! not for SMS.

I believe none of our Imams consumed alcohol. Our youth and educated class consider Imam as role model, I have been talking to youth. New generation is totally different from previous generations. You or 103 did not addressed my crucial question, " Can a pir supersedes ginan of his predecessor and make change in ginans"?

[ismaili103]

Karachi walas are not happy with your post and your defenders.

I am a karachiite and I dont have any problem with this, problems are with them who didn't understand why this topic is raised, the only agenda to raise this topic is to tell everybody that Imam's action are beyond our imagination thats why we shouldn't follow his actions but we should follow his farmans, thats it.

[ismaili103]

Can a pir supersedes ginan of his predecessor and make change in ginans"?

First of all I want to clear you one thing, there is no concept of The Imam changes Farmans of Previous Imam in ismailism. Imam only make farman according to the time, and Imam didn't change farman of previous Imam.

Second, Imam has the authority to change words in Farmans and Ginans.

[salimkhoja786]

Karachi walas are not happy with your post and your defenders.

I am a karachiite and I dont have any problem with this, problems are with them who didn't understand why this topic is raised, the only agenda to raise this topic is to tell everybody that Imam's action are beyond our imagination thats why we shouldn't follow his actions but we should follow his farmans, thats it.

You are not the only Ismaili living in Karachi, there are 200,000 more.
What is the agenda behind agenda to raise this issue at this time, timings play a crucial role. MSMS passed away in 1957 even your dad may not have born.

[ismaili103]

You are not the only Ismaili living in Karachi, there are 200,000 more.
What is the agenda behind agenda to raise this issue at this time, timings play a crucial role. MSMS passed away in 1957 even your dad may not have born.

And niether the 200000 Ismailies shoots mail in your inbox, may be 2 or 3 ignorant ones send you mail and you attached there thinking with rest of 200000.

And BTW, according to Imam Sultan Mohd Shah, " Imam never dies", so its pretty clear that why you have problems with such question because you didn't even understand who is Imam, for you he is a ordinary human being, who die and another from his family takeover his authority.

[salimkhoja786]

Damage is already done. I received few e- mails condemning your wine post.
According to you it might be fine for some conservative murids but majority of educated Ismailis won't buy your argument. Karim this time you shot in your foot. It means Satanic Verses by Rushdi are right.
48TH IMAM CONSUMED ALCOHOL AND 49TH IMAM SAID HE NEVER TOUCHED ALCOHOL, WHAT A CONTRAST?
Your post opened the door for khoja Ismailis to consume liquor without religious harassment. Good job Karim.

Damage is already done in our jamat of Khans , Shahs and Chitralis way before we discuss about wine and liquor on this forum. Jamat of Badakshan, Chitral, Broghil Valley, and other area of Gilgit Baltistan are producing and consuming liquor and wine from past 1000 years. Jamat of Chitral are addicted to opium.

Isn't it strange and funny that Khojas and Momans who are saying that Imam can do anything, he can consume alcohol or any thing, but majority of these khojas and Momnas are not consuming it, But those central asian jamat who are condem this are one of the most disgusting Jamat in Karachi, Your People light up the cigraate in Golimaar Jamatkhana, majority of your people in karachi consume alcohol, consume tobacco and drugs etc, one of the guy from your area theft the money of mehmani and dasond from karimabad jamatkhana and fly away. All I can say that , this is what your ancestor were doing who preached you this, ohh and yes I forgot one thing, one of the guy from your area Claim himself as Imam of Ismailis, in Karachi , well he died naturally.

SAME RHETORIC AGAIN;
The topic under discussion is whether MSMS CONSUMED ALCOHOL OR NOT, and not about Chitralis, Huzains or Afghanis and their ancestors. You have been told not to disrespect parents or ancestors. BUT LATU(N) KEY BHUT BATU(N) SEY NAHI SAMAJHTEY. If admin allows this crap then we have to take the things in our hands and we should not be blamed. This is a warning.
You people have tendency of disrespecting others. Talk on the issues, if you do not have nothing new just keep your self away from jumping in. Central Asian Ismailis are also murids of same Imam as you khojas and mominas are.
Khojas and mominas are not something special to Imam. Khojas and mominas GANGA JAL NAHAI HUEY NAHI HAI(N). I am from Karachi and know well khoja /momina mentality. HASAD ME MAREY JAIEN GE.
I believe Imams and pirs never consume alcohol. It is you people who are degrading Institution of Imamah and wrote pir Sadruddin went on Kotha of prostitute to enjoy Mujra. THIS IS YOU PEOPLE'S MENTALITY NOT OURS
MR. KARIM JIVANI.

[salimkhoja786]

You are not the only Ismaili living in Karachi, there are 200,000 more.
What is the agenda behind agenda to raise this issue at this time, timings play a crucial role. MSMS passed away in 1957 even your dad may not have born.

And niether the 200000 Ismailies shoots mail in your inbox, may be 2 or 3 ignorant ones send you mail and you attached there thinking with rest of 200000.

And BTW, according to Imam Sultan Mohd Shah, " Imam never dies", so its pretty clear that why you have problems with such question because you didn't even understand who is Imam, for you he is a ordinary human being, who die and another from his family takeover his authority.

Imam physically dies but not his Noor. His Noor is from Allah. He is Mazhar of Allah.

[salimkhoja786]

Can a pir supersedes ginan of his predecessor and make change in ginans"?

First of all I want to clear you one thing, there is no concept of The Imam changes Farmans of Previous Imam in ismailism. Imam only make farman according to the time, and Imam didn't change farman of previous Imam.

Second, Imam has the authority to change words in Farmans and Ginans.

Read the farmans of MSMS, He used the words 'change the farman according to time' and not merely few words.

[ismaili103]

SAME RHETORIC AGAIN;
The topic under discussion is whether MSMS CONSUMED ALCOHOL OR NOT, and not about Chitralis, Huzains or Afghanis and their ancestors. You have been told not to disrespect parents or ancestors. BUT LATU(N) KEY BHUT BATU(N) SEY NAHI SAMAJHTEY. If admin allows this crap then we have to take the things in our hands and we should not be blamed. This is a warning.
You people have tendency of disrespecting others. Talk on the issues, if you do not have nothing new just keep your self away from jumping in. Central Asian Ismailis are also murids of same Imam as you khojas and mominas are.
Khojas and mominas are not something special to Imam. Khojas and mominas GANGA JAL NAHAI HUEY NAHI HAI(N). I am from Karachi and know well khoja /momina mentality. HASAD ME MAREY JAIEN GE.
I believe Imams and pirs never consume alcohol. It is you people who are degrading Institution of Imamah and wrote pir Sadruddin went on Kotha of prostitute to enjoy Mujra. THIS IS YOU PEOPLE'S MENTALITY NOT OURS
MR. KARIM JIVANI.

And again same reaction from you...burning burning

Why you are burning, you forgot you are salimkhoja not a central asian.

I have many friends from your area, and I never disrespect them because I knew how to treat Gems and Poops.

Sorry, we are not Hindu, so we didn't take bath from ganga jal.

No one said that Imam and Pir do this and consume that, we only said that Imam can do anything to examine his murids faith, including such events.

The anecdote about Pir saddardin is well known, It was like pir spent night in the house of prostitute, it is you who added word like kotha and mujra, so its clear who has ridiculous mentality. Let me make it clear ITS YOU. And BTW how can you accepts piratan, you was always against it so please don't act like "900 chuhay kha kar billi haj ko chali".

Well you didn't even know who I am, Karim Jivani was my REC teacher,how will you threatened me, but I know who you are Mr. Advocate mazhar shah khan. You know what I mean

BTW there is a farman of Imam Aga Alishah, in which he said " Momnas are my family members"

[ismaili103]

Imam physically dies but not his Noor. His Noor is from Allah. He is Mazhar of Allah

Hazir Imam is indeed Allah

[salimkhoja786]

To kmaherali & living creature: Ya Ali Madad.
Is the word 'WINE' is mentioned in Quran?.If it there how many times it appears? If it is there what is that message?
Please copy paste if any ayats on it exists

The Quran has used the word KHAMAR. It is used total 7 times; 4 times directly and 3 times with its derivatives. I am quoting here two Ayats; Meaning by Abdullah yusuf Ali.

O YE WHO BELIEVE, INTOXICANTS AND GAMBLING,(DEDICATION OF) STONES, AND (DIVINATION BY) ARROWS, ARE AN ABOMINATION OF SATAN'S HANDIWORK; ESCHEW SUCH(ABOMINATION), THAT YOU MAY PROSPER.
AL MA'IDAH, # 90.

THEY ARE ASKING THEE, CONCERNING WINE AND GAMBLING. SAY IN THEM IS GREAT SIN, AND SOME PROFIT FOR MEN. BUT THE SIN IS GREATER THAN THE PROFIT.
AL BAQARAH, # 219.

Hadith of Prophet Muhammad by Al Bukhari,

NOW THEN, PROHIBITION OF ALCOHOLIC DRINKS HAVE BEEN REVEALED, AND THESE DRINKS ARE PREPARED FROM FIVE THINGS IE; GRAPES, DATES, HONEY,WHEAT AND BARLEY, AND ALCOHOLIC DRINK THAT WHICH DISTURBS THE MIND. (SAHIH AL BUKHARI, VOLUME 7, BOOK69, # 487).

[Admin]

Second, Imam has the authority to change words in Farmans and Ginans.

I can tell on present Imam's authoritative statement made on 15 Oct 2010 in Toronto that Imam does not edit his Farmans. He can of course supersede any past Farmans of any Imam, including his own, by making a new Farman.

By the same token, since Imam used that day the expression "My Farmans and My Ginans", he can also supersede a Ginan but would not "edit" it. He does not need to edit as His Farmans supersede previous Farmans and previous Ginans as he is the Pir and the Imam today.

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/node/29740/15108

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad.
I wish to see all extract of all 7 ayats and not pik and choose cunningness.hadith's are 85% bogus stuff floating in the spin bazaar.I never asked for it.please reply to the the question properly.

[kmaherali]

The statement on Imam SMS made is false.

So for a power of soul no wine was needed in the first place. Agakhani has rightly asked for photos and I ask for more eyewitness.
Your posting on Imam SMS is fake,fraud and stands null & void.Any tom dick & harry can make assume opinion when leaders toast their glasses filled with liquid.
Drinking alcohol defined by most countries is indeed a horrible habit.

When you accuse someone of providing false information, the first step is to verify the sources I provided. Did you read the book I mentioned? If you have not read the book, then it is wrong to accuse someone.

You did not even bother to read my post properly. Did I say that the author only saw MSMS toasting a drink?

So please go and find the book and then we can discuss it here.

[kmaherali]

WHY AFTER 58 YEARS...

MSMS passed away in 1957, I assume you should be kid at that time, Why after 58 years you raised this issue which was buried long ago and no one was talking about that. If Ismailis start believing in those two books which you mentioned means they should believe in TABLOID STORIES about Imam and his family or we accept the garbage on the U TUBE OR ACCEPT WHAT IS WRITTEN IN 'THRONE OF GOLD'.
I believe none of our IMAMS used alcohol. Let me quote from a e-mail received, I quote," What is the AGENDA of Heritage group they have stained the Institution of Imamah". Karachi walas are not happy with your post and your defenders.

Greenwall wrote his book in 1952. I was not even born then. I came across the book somewhere around 1980 and found it quite convincing and therefore I thought it worthy of mentioning here. I mentioned the book because I was asked by tret about whether the Imam drank alcohol, so I provided the evidence. There was no reason to mention it earlier.

Greenwall's book is NOT tabloid stuff. Greenwall was well acquainted with the Imam socially, he went to horse racing with him, he would dine with the Imam regularly, he would visit the Imam at the Ritz Hotel. As I mentioned before, the Imam wrote the Foreword to book and lent him his own photographs to be published in the book. I ask you to first read the book before being critical about it.

The agenda of the heritage is to project the correct understanding of the Imam - his actions can appear incomprehensible and we should not follow what he does but what he tells us.

[kmaherali]

I believe none of our Imams consumed alcohol. Our youth and educated class consider Imam as role model, I have been talking to youth. New generation is totally different from previous generations. You or 103 did not addressed my crucial question, " Can a pir supersedes ginan of his predecessor and make change in ginans"?

The new generation are not getting the correct understanding of Imamat. According to our Tariqah we do not follow the Sunna of the Prophet/Imams. That is the main difference between Sunnis and us.

In theory the Pir can change everything in our Tariqah, but he doesn't. He has called the Ginans a Wonderful Tradition which must be carried forward form generations to generations. Traditions don't change unless there is an absolute need determined by the Imam.

[kmaherali]

You are not the only Ismaili living in Karachi, there are 200,000 more.
What is the agenda behind agenda to raise this issue at this time, timings play a crucial role. MSMS passed away in 1957 even your dad may not have born.

You are making it sound that the entire Ismaili world is reading the forums. Have you ever seen the number of hits each post generates? Only an infinite minority of Ismailis read these forums.

[kmaherali]

I would like to see that photo first.

What kind of photograph will be convincing in this regard?

[Admin]

I remember a photo of Hazar Imam and Premier Rene Levesque. Levesque in his speech cleared the fact that during the toast some people had water in their glass.

In fact the glass resembled to a champagne glass but they gave champagne to Levesque and water to Hazar Imam in the same looking glass for which Premier of Quebec mention this fact in his Toast in 1983.

So sometimes appearance are misleading. Seeing a Champagne glass does not mean it contains Champagne and vice versa.


" myself can assure you of the sincere friendship of the people of Quebec and whatever be the drink served, I would request everyone to raise his glass to the health of their Highnesses and to the success of your humanitarian enterprises."

Premier Levesque
Montreal, Quebec
April 25, 1983

"It is my deep wish that this tradition should continue, should widen so that we can all benefit from the fact that we all believe in the same basic elements of human life, that is first and foremost, the dignity of man. Mr. Premier, I request everyone to raise their glasses to Quebec."
Hazar Imam.

[agakhani_1]

What kind of photograph will be convincing in this regard?

That photograph of MSM in which "the bucket of wine" ( I do not agree ) also shown! honest with you I never seen that photograph if any one have please send me.

[salimkhoja786]

Imam physically dies but not his Noor. His Noor is from Allah. He is Mazhar of Allah

Hazir Imam is indeed Allah

This is a blasphemous statement and there are repercussions of this statement at least in Pakistan. The person who wrote this, is enemy of khojas and mominas in Pakistan. When officially it was declared in 1975 by Imam that " IMAM IS MAZHAR OF ALLAH", why Admin is allowing and keep alive this statement, where as my previous reply was deleted. This shows the bloody AGENDA OF ADMIN. God forbid does Admin want some other massacre of Ismailis there, if that happened the blood should be on the hands of Admin and there like minded.

[salimkhoja786]

I remember a photo of Hazar Imam and Premier Rene Levesque. Levesque in his speech cleared the fact that during the toast some people had water in their glass.

In fact the glass resembled to a champagne glass but they gave champagne to Levesque and water to Hazar Imam in the same looking glass for which Premier of Quebec mention this fact in his Toast in 1983.

So sometimes appearance are misleading. Seeing a Champagne glass does not mean it contains Champagne and vice versa.


" myself can assure you of the sincere friendship of the people of Quebec and whatever be the drink served, I would request everyone to raise his glass to the health of their Highnesses and to the success of your humanitarian enterprises."

Premier Levesque
Montreal, Quebec
April 25, 1983

"It is my deep wish that this tradition should continue, should widen so that we can all benefit from the fact that we all believe in the same basic elements of human life, that is first and foremost, the dignity of man. Mr. Premier, I request everyone to raise their glasses to Quebec."
Hazar Imam.

Explain this to Kmaherali and his followers. Imam was give water in glass.
I trust my Imam, when he said, he never touched alcohol.

[salimkhoja786]

You are not the only Ismaili living in Karachi, there are 200,000 more.
What is the agenda behind agenda to raise this issue at this time, timings play a crucial role. MSMS passed away in 1957 even your dad may not have born.

You are making it sound that the entire Ismaili world is reading the forums. Have you ever seen the number of hits each post generates? Only an infinite minority of Ismailis read these forums.

There are 15 million Ismailis and every other household has excess to internet, if you count even 7% of 15 millions are watching then calculate the #s. Not only Ismailis but non Ismailis are in thousands which was admitted by Admin in one of his post. Such kind of posts are always viral.

[salimkhoja786]

I believe none of our Imams consumed alcohol. Our youth and educated class consider Imam as role model, I have been talking to youth. New generation is totally different from previous generations. You or 103 did not addressed my crucial question, " Can a pir supersedes ginan of his predecessor and make change in ginans"?

The new generation are not getting the correct understanding of Imamat. According to our Tariqah we do not follow the Sunna of the Prophet/Imams. That is the main difference between Sunnis and us.

In theory the Pir can change everything in our Tariqah, but he doesn't. He has called the Ginans a Wonderful Tradition which must be carried forward form generations to generations. Traditions don't change unless there is an absolute need determined by the Imam.

Past many years Imam is paying attention to youth of our community. Why Imam ordered to make changes according to time in new curriculum for RC students. The courses which we were taught and understanding given is totally different than our times.