Fasting

Post by **Admin** » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:48 pm

mazharshah wrote:. The phrase 'NOT ONLY' insists to fast in the month of Ramadhan.

Would you enlighten us as to how many days of his life our Holy Prophet (PBUH) fasted (in the meaning of to abstain from food.) You will be surprised and will feel quite ignorant yourself when you find out the reply. Especially for someone who claims to know better what Imam should have done or not done.

Post by **Admin** » Tue Dec 15, 2015 4:50 pm

mazharshah wrote: Did Mukhi saheb handed you a free dinner card after yesterday's Bheej?

Yes we got refreshments after the end of the Beej ceremony and fast. Thank you.

kanada · Post by **kanada** » Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:38 pm

mazharshah wrote:...youths are wandering today for answers.

Ya Aly Madad everyone. I want to take a moment to thank from those that I am getting great feedback from "kmaherali", "nuseri", "mazharshah", "admin" and many more.

I came to this forum to learn a better way to educate and explain to the youths. In my recent conversation with one of the Maji Mukhi, he mentioned that MHI has been rather unhappy with the decline of attendance of the jamat worldwide, especially with the youths.

I am in my mid-forties, and when I was a teenager, I had questions that many Alwaez would not give me a direct answer but often two or three Alwaez would give me contradictory answers. I have seen several of my friends in Ismaili Tariqah simply walk away from this Din.

I came to this forum in good faith to honestly learn the differences in the way our community thinks and practices. But I have seen aggression in this forum and I feel that such aggression is not necessary. I understand that we have an undying love for our Imam and sometimes in asking we make certain remarks that can hurt the other and in retaliation it gets into a heated argument.

Our Imam has stressed several times in Farmans to avoid getting angry. There are several farmans you will find on Ismaili.net and I don't have to provide references over here. I am getting great feedback but at the same time I am getting personal attacks too.

I really don't feel that it is necessary. Admin, you hold a very special position in this forum and I have the right to ask questions. If I find it contradictory, then it becomes a duty of each and every one in this forum to help bring knowledge to a level that we can share across to our community and youths.

admin wrote:I have never consider you as part of the intellectual tradition, do not be mistaken

By saying what you did earlier is extremely rude especially at your level being an Admin.

Let's us all understand one true fact and that is, the questions I am asking is the very questions all youths are asking. If you will give me answers that contradicts, these are not the answers the youth will accept. Do you know how many youths are not paying dasond and how many youths are not doing beej? That is because they are seeking answers but they are not getting it. The youth in the West are not like us who grew in India or Pakistan where we have experience the Islamic culture and the Ismaili deep rooted tradition.

kmaherali wrote:You will not be excommunicated from the community if you don't, but according to Anant Akhado certainly you will be excommunicated from the Imam

Brother "kmaherali", honestly, do you really think that the youth care what Anant Akhado says. They can't even speak and understand the language. Please come down to reality. These youths are in school with Muslims friends and they can't even connect to them because Qur'an is a missing element in our tradition. You are ready to explain to them that they will not see paradise in the next life because they are not paying Dasond. But when they ask what is it, then don't even get a decent reply.

I can walk away from this forum but the questions will be left unanswered. What benefit will it make to anyone in this forum who are taking pains to visit, ask and learn. Please take a step back, take a deep breath and think for a moment...are your answers working. If yes, then why are there still questions? It is because the intellect of human mind expands with the next generation and the answers you are giving is certainly perfect for us but perhaps not that perfect for them.

admin wrote:At least have faith in Farman if you are Ismaili, and if you are not and are hiding like some others a non-Ismaili identity behind an internet alias

These are frustrative quotes, which is really not necessary. Why is that if I ask then I am considered not have faith in the farmans? How do you arrive at such a conclusion? People who have no faith will not bother to visit this site and read, dialog and try to exchange ideas....absolutely not because they have better things to do in the night than to hang around this forum. It is people who have faith and curiosity that will keep asking and probing.

Anyway, I don't think this forum is doing me any good. I rather not ask and get further heated arguments and I get responses like I will be excommunicated by "kmaherali". Why issue threats to people seeking knowledge.

Before I leave, I want to thank all that provided time to respond to my questions. I humbly ask for forgiveness if I have hurt anyone's feelings.

Post by **Admin** » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:24 pm

kanada wrote:Why is that if I ask then I am considered not have faith in the farmans?

Because you were given a reference to a Farman made by our Imam on Dassond and you choose to ignore it. When a person choose to ignore a Farman or to dispute ie, surely he can not pretend to be Ismailis because the only major difference between Ismailis and any other faith is that ismailis respect the farmans.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:02 am

mazharshah wrote:Mowla Ali was Khalifatul Muslimeen, all power full. He was not a king of small territory or a governor of some province. Mowla Ali had his own hand written Quran with him and he should had verified with famous and respected COMPANIONS OF PROPHET alive at that time. Also there were thousands of Hafiz e Quran to make his point in case there would have been any opposition. Let me ask you, in Preamble of constitution Imam has mentioned Quran, is this Quran which Imam mentioned Ismailis to follow is different from Hazrat Usman's time Quran?

Prophet Muhammad was the Rasul ul Allah accepted by all Muslims including the majority Sunnis. They rejected his message about Imamat at Ghadir.

What makes you think that they would accept Hazarat Aly's version of the Qur'an which would include verses about Imamat? Don't you think it would create chaos, confusion and disunity in the Umma?

Also keep in mind Hazarat Ali was the 4th choice, not the 1st. He was not the darling of the Umma!

The constitution states:

The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.

The Qur'an that was revealed to the Prophet is not the Uthmanian Qur'an which is the tampered version!
Also the constitution does not state that we should follow the Qur'an but rather the tawil and the talim.

The IIS is not involved with the study of the entire Qur'an. It is involved in studies related to the various tafsirs throughout history.

Would you pay more attention to the constitution or the Farman of the Imam as a murid?

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:07 am

mazharshah wrote:You are a scholar, you know how to research and quote references. After posting now you are looking for source of information! The oral traditions by senior alwaizeen 50/100 years back and narrations in unauthentic books have complicated doctrines of Ismailism and youths are wandering today for
answers.

You very well know that ours is an esoteric tradition and the bulk of our knowledge and understanding is not apparent to the public. Didn't the Imam tell us what is zaher is zaher, what is batin is batin.

I am quite confident about the truth of the anecdote, which was narrated by a very reputable waezin. I was not sure of the place and date and hence I am trying to locate the tape.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:11 am

mazharshah wrote:The phrase 'NOT ONLY' insists to fast in the month of Ramadhan.

It does not, on the contrary it tells us that Fasting is not only for the month of Ramadhan but rather for 360 days. The Imam clarified in the Farman that it is about thought (Khayal).

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:29 am

kanada wrote:Brother "kmaherali", honestly, do you really think that the youth care what Anant Akhado says. They can't even speak and understand the language. Please come down to reality. These youths are in school with Muslims friends and they can't even connect to them because Qur'an is a missing element in our tradition. You are ready to explain to them that they will not see paradise in the next life because they are not paying Dasond. But when they ask what is it, then don't even get a decent reply.

So that I can understand the background of the youth you are involved with, could you tell us where you are located. I think if the Anant Akhado is presented in an appropriate manner, the youth will be receptive to it, but no one tries. I think there is enough information in our Dua and the Talim curriculum about the Qur'an for our youth to interact with other Muslims.

The notion of paradise is part of every religious tradition. It is not restricted to the Anant Akhado only. There are creative ways of explaining paradise. There is a thread on Heaven and Hell in this forum at:

Heaven and Hell
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... eaven+hell

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 4:39 am

Ya Ali Madad:
One must end this rather plastered n replaceable pillar and its concerns and that of circling around a stone,etc.
It should be done AWAY with by now for Ismailis

We will be in the year 2016 two weeks time and pray to see 60th year of ALI,their job was to introduce and lead to Ali ,they did that greatly.
Read farmans Imam MSMS and MHI can find pearls n gems
Rather than grade lower metal like gold,silver n copper.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 2:36 pm

Admin wrote:
mazharshah wrote: Did Mukhi saheb handed you a free dinner card after yesterday's Bheej?
Yes we got refreshments after the end of the Beej ceremony and fast. Thank you.

Indian and Pakistani jamaits are not rich in coparison to USA and Canada jamaits. Our refreshments were the blessed word KHANAWADAN.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 3:05 pm

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:You are well aware of that particular farman quoted quite few times in this forum.
MSMS said; Haqiqati Momin NOT ONLY fast in the month of Ramadhan for him 360 days are always like fasting... ( KIM Oct 21, 1903, Rajkot)
I have noted that the missionaries during waiz or lecture disappear the words,
" NOT ONLY".
The actual Farman states:
"The world is just for two days, in which, have thoughts on becoming pure by doing ibadat. A Haqiqati momin observes fast (roza) not only during the month of Ramzan but for him all the 360 days throughout are of fasting. Not a single evil deed in all the 360 days signifies fasting. Not to hurt anyone is but fasting. Keeping the mouth shut and not eating anything but doing other sinful evil acts is just not fasting. This fasting is but of the thoughts (khyal). Always think thoughtfully. Have such intention that no evil thought is caused in your heart, and no thought of envying someone comes in your heart."

Form the above Farman the Imam says that Haqiqati momins fast for 360 days, hence his fast in the month of Ramadhan is the same as the fast rest of the year. Physical fasting does not happen for 360 days, hence he is not talking about physical fasting he is talking about batini fasting.

Fasting is about thoughts, it is not about food!

In Amman Jordon Ummah conference Imam declared that Ismailis follow Fiqa' i Jafferia. Imam Jafar Sadiq's hadith is, there are 7 pillars of Islam and FASTING is one of them. Now in that back ground look at the Farman made by MSMS. Fasting is to acquire Taqwa. 29/30 days fasting is not a goal but to acquire Taqwa is the goal. MSMS has explained that goal, no doubt a muslim during fasting doing bad deeds is not acceptable to God. Haqiqati momin has more responsibility to act carefully and live pious life other wise there will be no difference between him and an a person with fast and doing evil things.
That is a comparison otherwise Imam should not have used the words 'not only', means fasting in Ramadhan is going to stay and momin in his khayal, keep in mind to obey rules of fasting and acquire Taqwa.

kanada · Post by **kanada** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:01 pm

mazharshah wrote:Imam Jafar Sadiq's hadith is, there are 7 pillars of Islam and FASTING is one of them.

Ya Aly Madad Mazharshah.I am interested in discussing the above. I have sent you a private message (PM) you. Please kindly respond to me. Thanks!

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:31 pm

Ya Ali Madad.
Any read out speech is not a Declaration.It mention of what core stream the present Ismails of today are from to the fools attending them as many assumed Agakhan as a cult leader and explanation of Shia beliefs lineage.
Mid quoting n mid respresnting fact is wronging the words of Ali ,see the penalty of it in few Ayats.
No one soul will be spared for that.
We we had in India ,I have mentioned in salegrih topic.
Khanavadan blesses the receiving souls n not the disconnect n cursed souls.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Dec 17, 2015 2:15 am

mazharshah wrote:[In Amman Jordon Ummah conference Imam declared that Ismailis follow Fiqa' i Jafferia. Imam Jafar Sadiq's hadith is, there are 7 pillars of Islam and FASTING is one of them. Now in that back ground look at the Farman made by MSMS. Fasting is to acquire Taqwa. 29/30 days fasting is not a goal but to acquire Taqwa is the goal. MSMS has explained that goal, no doubt a muslim during fasting doing bad deeds is not acceptable to God. Haqiqati momin has more responsibility to act carefully and live pious life other wise there will be no difference between him and an a person with fast and doing evil things.
That is a comparison otherwise Imam should not have used the words 'not only', means fasting in Ramadhan is going to stay and momin in his khayal, keep in mind to obey rules of fasting and acquire Taqwa.

The Seven Pillars were stated over a 1000 years back. The times have changed. During the Alamut period a batini understanding on the pillars were given:

1. Cleanliness (taharat) - to dissociate oneself from previous religions and traditions.
2. Confession of faith (Shahadat) - to know God through Himself.
3. Prayer (Namaz) - to be always speaking about recognition of God.
4. Fasting (Sawm) - to speak with the followers of falsehood using precautionary dissimulation (taqiyyah) in order to maintain continual fasting.
5. Charity (Zakat) - to give to other brothers in religion part of that which God, the Exalted, has given you.
6. Pilgrimage (hajj) - to abandon this temporal world and seek the eternal abode (of the hereafter).
7. Holy war (jihad) - to annihilate oneself in the essence of God, the Exalted.

As times change different interpretations evolve. Further discussion is at:

The Seven Pillars of Ismailism?
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... en+pillars

If you have interpreted the fasting as physical, then you may continue your fasts. But do not imply that everyone should. I don't interprete it that way. To me it is a fast of khyal as clearly indicated.

The Jaferi Madhhab places enormous importance to the notion of ijtihad under Ahl al-Bayt, so there is a lot of room for reinterpretation of faith. It is not fixed to a particular time:

"The blessings of "Ijtihad" as initiated by Ahlul Bayt (A.S.), have continued to serve as guidance for the Muslims ever since, with competent jurists rising up to shoulder the challenging task in every age.

The Imam thus encouraged Islamic learning and the dynamism of Ijtihad among his followers."

http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_ ... nopsis.htm

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:56 pm

Admin wrote:
mazharshah wrote: For benefit of Ummah, for benefit of coming generations, to stop future conflicts between shias and sunnis ( and arguments amongst Ismailis ) he should had given Quran as revealed.
And would you please mind explaining who you are to say our Imam should have done this or that? Would you have more wisdom than our Imam? If yes we should all change our faith and make you the Imam perhaps?

It is my echha, my khuwahish, my humble understanding, that Mowla Ali had given us the original version of Quran as revealed so that shias and sunnis would have stopped killing each other on this subject.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 3:04 pm

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:Mowla Ali was Khalifatul Muslimeen, all power full. He was not a king of small territory or a governor of some province. Mowla Ali had his own hand written Quran with him and he should had verified with famous and respected COMPANIONS OF PROPHET alive at that time. Also there were thousands of Hafiz e Quran to make his point in case there would have been any opposition. Let me ask you, in Preamble of constitution Imam has mentioned Quran, is this Quran which Imam mentioned Ismailis to follow is different from Hazrat Usman's time Quran?
Prophet Muhammad was the Rasul ul Allah accepted by all Muslims including the majority Sunnis. They rejected his message about Imamat at Ghadir.

What makes you think that they would accept Hazarat Aly's version of the Qur'an which would include verses about Imamat? Don't you think it would create chaos, confusion and disunity in the Umma?

Also keep in mind Hazarat Ali was the 4th choice, not the 1st. He was not the darling of the Umma!

The constitution states:

The Shia Imami Ismaili Muslims affirm the Shahadah 'La- ilaha illallih, Muhammadur Rasulu-llah'. the Tawhid therein and that the Holy Prophet Muhammad (Salla-llahu alayhi wa-sallam) is the last and final Prophet of Allah. Islam, as revealed in the Holy Quran, is the final message of Allah to mankind, and is universal and eternal. The Holy Prophet (S.A.S.) through the divine revelation from Allah prescribed rules governing spiritual and temporal matters.

The Qur'an that was revealed to the Prophet is not the Uthmanian Qur'an which is the tampered version!
Also the constitution does not state that we should follow the Qur'an but rather the tawil and the talim.

The IIS is not involved with the study of the entire Qur'an. It is involved in studies related to the various tafsirs throughout history.

Would you pay more attention to the constitution or the Farman of the Imam as a murid?

You people say Ali is Allah, by keeping this assertion of yours in mind, my question is; Was God helpless because of opposition? Were Mowla Ali's hands tied? Ali was the best speaker and had charisma, muslims should have listen to his arguments and proofs. As I wrote before 70% of companions of Prophet were still alive and there were thousand of Hafiz e Quran to prove the point. As shias say Quran is minus 10 chapters belong to Ahl e Bait and Mowla Ali, if we assume that correct still rest of Quran is correct. Our early Imams never objected on missing parts of Quran. My question is which Quran is taught in RCs in Ismaili centers, Is there some different kind of Quran? Some where I read a quote of MSMS," TE DAS PARAH AMARA GHAR MA CHHE", when these are with Imam then what is use of head and chest beatings. Imam in Preamble has clearly mentioned about the existing Quran. In one of your post you mentioned that Preamble and Ismaili constitution is accessible to public also, so what is Imam misguiding the general public and non Ismailis!

Post by **Admin** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:02 pm

I read the post above before reading the name of who posted as I do usually and I thought the post was from zznoor.

My mistake, though I am glad I did not reply. Sometimes we get mislead by our assumptions. I would have asked that when your post says "you people" are you refering to "us" ismailis? But I will refrain from asking it as I already know that the answer is positive..

ShamsB · Post by **ShamsB** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:24 pm

Admin wrote:I read the post above before reading the name of who posted as I do usually and I thought the post was from zznoor.

My mistake, though I am glad I did not reply. Sometimes we get mislead by our assumptions. I would have asked that when your post says "you people" are you refering to "us" ismailis? But I will refrain from asking it as I already know that the answer is positive..

Maybe it is from zznoor Admin

Shams

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:44 pm

Ya ALI madad.
With Bolta Quran .the static book at zahiri level hold low value.
A living professor in college has more effect than a printed book on a subject written 60 years ago.
In Sufi tariqa ,ALL ALL ALL physical object has NO NO value It diminishes to achieve enlightment n grace from ALI .
one does NOT need a penny,or books of any kind.only two words from syllabus from Universe of Ali in Meditation.
Sell the DISTORTED stuff,you know where?
Admin is this a qualitative taraqati Ismaili or a non Ismaili dumping website ?
ALI MAY SEEK THAT ANSWER FROM YOU.
As his attorney a simple memo of times to come.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 7:39 am

You people say Ali is Allah, by keeping this assertion of yours in mind, my question is; Was God helpless because of opposition?

Then tell me why Allah created Iblees, Yazeed , Kans, Ravan, Satan, Lucifer and all the evil forces, if Allah want to make things clear then every organism got Asal ma Wasil.

Allah give intellect to us, and we need to use that. Many people are waiting for those 10 chapters of Quran, but only one who can use their intellect know that in real Imam's Farman are those 10 chapters and those who are still waiting for a 100 page book with 10 chapters are ignorant towards Imam's Farman, they will always wait for those 10 chapters till their last breath.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sat Dec 19, 2015 6:06 pm

mazharshah wrote: You people say Ali is Allah, by keeping this assertion of yours in mind, my question is; Was God helpless because of opposition? Were Mowla Ali's hands tied? Ali was the best speaker and had charisma, muslims should have listen to his arguments and proofs. As I wrote before 70% of companions of Prophet were still alive and there were thousand of Hafiz e Quran to prove the point. As shias say Quran is minus 10 chapters belong to Ahl e Bait and Mowla Ali, if we assume that correct still rest of Quran is correct. Our early Imams never objected on missing parts of Quran. My question is which Quran is taught in RCs in Ismaili centers, Is there some different kind of Quran? Some where I read a quote of MSMS," TE DAS PARAH AMARA GHAR MA CHHE", when these are with Imam then what is use of head and chest beatings. Imam in Preamble has clearly mentioned about the existing Quran. In one of your post you mentioned that Preamble and Ismaili constitution is accessible to public also, so what is Imam misguiding the general public and non Ismailis!

It is not a question of being helpless. It is a matter of speaking to people according to their capacity. If they rejected the message delivered by the Prophet of Allah, it means that they did not have the capacity to understand Imamat. Hence to add verses of Imamat to the existing Qur'an would lead to confusion and disunity.

For those who have the capacity, the 10 Siparas are given in the Ginans/Farmans as per Moman Chetmni verses:

4) Eji Joma(n) Joma(n) ma(n)ae ae Narji kahiae
Teni sa(n)kh che aelm mahain,
Chalis sipara Kuran na,
Te mahain tris che duniya mahain. Cheto.....

4) In every Imam it is the same Noor of Ali and the scriptures
bear that out of 40 Siparas (parts) of the Quran are a proof
of that and verily 30 are in this world.

5) Eji Das sipara baaki rahya,
Te che ae ghar mahain,
Athar ved tene kahiae,
Teni vani Satgur mukhaj mahain. Cheto.....

5) The rest of th 10 Siparas (Parts) are really the gist of this religion
Momins you should recognize the 10 Siparas as the prime
religion and that was what Pir Satgur introduced you to.

The constitution is addressed to the world and the Imam speaks according to the understanding of the world. Hence he would only talk about the Qur'an that is recognized by the world which is the Uthmanic Qur'an. Our RE system uses PARTS of this Qur'an - not the entire Qur'an. There is no question about misguiding the world.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:23 pm

ismaili103 wrote:
You people say Ali is Allah, by keeping this assertion of yours in mind, my question is; Was God helpless because of opposition?
Then tell me why Allah created Iblees, Yazeed , Kans, Ravan, Satan, Lucifer and all the evil forces, if Allah want to make things clear then every organism got Asal ma Wasil.

Allah give intellect to us, and we need to use that. Many people are waiting for those 10 chapters of Quran, but only one who can use their intellect know that in real Imam's Farman are those 10 chapters and those who are still waiting for a 100 page book with 10 chapters are ignorant towards Imam's Farman, they will always wait for those 10 chapters till their last breath.

Can you quote Farman of any of our Imams that they delivered Farmans from missing 10 chapters of Quran. Need proper references.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:41 pm

kanada wrote:
mazharshah wrote:...youths are wandering today for answers.
Ya Aly Madad everyone. I want to take a moment to thank from those that I am getting great feedback from "kmaherali", "nuseri", "mazharshah", "admin" and many more.

I came to this forum to learn a better way to educate and explain to the youths. In my recent conversation with one of the Maji Mukhi, he mentioned that MHI has been rather unhappy with the decline of attendance of the jamat worldwide, especially with the youths.

I am in my mid-forties, and when I was a teenager, I had questions that many Alwaez would not give me a direct answer but often two or three Alwaez would give me contradictory answers. I have seen several of my friends in Ismaili Tariqah simply walk away from this Din.

I came to this forum in good faith to honestly learn the differences in the way our community thinks and practices. But I have seen aggression in this forum and I feel that such aggression is not necessary. I understand that we have an undying love for our Imam and sometimes in asking we make certain remarks that can hurt the other and in retaliation it gets into a heated argument.

Our Imam has stressed several times in Farmans to avoid getting angry. There are several farmans you will find on Ismaili.net and I don't have to provide references over here. I am getting great feedback but at the same time I am getting personal attacks too.

I really don't feel that it is necessary. Admin, you hold a very special position in this forum and I have the right to ask questions. If I find it contradictory, then it becomes a duty of each and every one in this forum to help bring knowledge to a level that we can share across to our community and youths.

admin wrote:I have never consider you as part of the intellectual tradition, do not be mistaken
By saying what you did earlier is extremely rude especially at your level being an Admin.

Let's us all understand one true fact and that is, the questions I am asking is the very questions all youths are asking. If you will give me answers that contradicts, these are not the answers the youth will accept. Do you know how many youths are not paying dasond and how many youths are not doing beej? That is because they are seeking answers but they are not getting it. The youth in the West are not like us who grew in India or Pakistan where we have experience the Islamic culture and the Ismaili deep rooted tradition.

kmaherali wrote:You will not be excommunicated from the community if you don't, but according to Anant Akhado certainly you will be excommunicated from the Imam
Brother "kmaherali", honestly, do you really think that the youth care what Anant Akhado says. They can't even speak and understand the language. Please come down to reality. These youths are in school with Muslims friends and they can't even connect to them because Qur'an is a missing element in our tradition. You are ready to explain to them that they will not see paradise in the next life because they are not paying Dasond. But when they ask what is it, then don't even get a decent reply.

I can walk away from this forum but the questions will be left unanswered. What benefit will it make to anyone in this forum who are taking pains to visit, ask and learn. Please take a step back, take a deep breath and think for a moment...are your answers working. If yes, then why are there still questions? It is because the intellect of human mind expands with the next generation and the answers you are giving is certainly perfect for us but perhaps not that perfect for them.

admin wrote:At least have faith in Farman if you are Ismaili, and if you are not and are hiding like some others a non-Ismaili identity behind an internet alias
These are frustrative quotes, which is really not necessary. Why is that if I ask then I am considered not have faith in the farmans? How do you arrive at such a conclusion? People who have no faith will not bother to visit this site and read, dialog and try to exchange ideas....absolutely not because they have better things to do in the night than to hang around this forum. It is people who have faith and curiosity that will keep asking and probing.

Anyway, I don't think this forum is doing me any good. I rather not ask and get further heated arguments and I get responses like I will be excommunicated by "kmaherali". Why issue threats to people seeking knowledge.

Before I leave, I want to thank all that provided time to respond to my questions. I humbly ask for forgiveness if I have hurt anyone's feelings.

To Kanada,
Don't quit, don't give up, don't be disheartened; there are few participants
who are arrogant, use harsh and insulting words, ignore them and hit them back with proper references and proofs from Ismaili literature.
What I understood you are involved with youths so do I. I provide them relative material and advise them to read and understand;
1. Preamble of our constitution. Preamble is most important to understand basics of Ismailism.
2. Learn the meaning of Du'a, understand the philosophy there in and follow.
3. Read the chapter from Memoirs,"Islam the religion of my ancestors.
4. Ginans prescribed by ITREB according to Hidayat of Hazar Imam.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sun Dec 20, 2015 2:58 pm

Admin wrote:
mazharshah wrote:. The phrase 'NOT ONLY' insists to fast in the month of Ramadhan.
Would you enlighten us as to how many days of his life our Holy Prophet (PBUH) fasted (in the meaning of to abstain from food.) You will be surprised and will feel quite ignorant yourself when you find out the reply. Especially for someone who claims to know better what Imam should have done or not done.

What you want to prove by asking me how many days Prophet fasted or abstained from food! Prophet did fast, so did Mowla Ali and his family members, Imam Baqir, Imam Ja'far and same act of fasting is done by Hazar Imam and his family members. To fast or not to fast is a different story, we can not force any one to fast but it is compulsory to fast in the month of Ramadhan, What Quran, Farman and Ginan says. I have experienced (during discussions) that khoja Ismails want ease and comfort in religious practices. Mostly their attitude is to pay and enter in paradise, that's why they come up with different interpretations to avoid hardships in religious matters.

Post by **Admin** » Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:19 pm

mazharshah wrote:but it is compulsory to fast in the month of Ramadhan,

Sure this is what your religion tells you. But you have a mistaken understanding of what fast means and what is Islam or even ismailism.

I suggest you to revisit this thread since the beginning and try to understand a little bit before making extremist ISIS/Whahabi/Saudi type statements.

There is no place for extremism in Islam. When God say there is no compulsion in faith, who are you to tell us this is compulsory and this is not?

I am still waiting for you to tell us how many days the Prophet abstain from eating food in his life except for the 5 days when he abstain from food by solidarity because he was passing through an area were Jews were predominant and a a period that these Jews were fasting. bring us some "reliable sources" and we can both laugh together.

mazharshah · Post by **mazharshah** » Sun Dec 20, 2015 4:43 pm

kmaherali wrote:
mazharshah wrote:[In Amman Jordon Ummah conference Imam declared that Ismailis follow Fiqa' i Jafferia. Imam Jafar Sadiq's hadith is, there are 7 pillars of Islam and FASTING is one of them. Now in that back ground look at the Farman made by MSMS. Fasting is to acquire Taqwa. 29/30 days fasting is not a goal but to acquire Taqwa is the goal. MSMS has explained that goal, no doubt a muslim during fasting doing bad deeds is not acceptable to God. Haqiqati momin has more responsibility to act carefully and live pious life other wise there will be no difference between him and an a person with fast and doing evil things.
That is a comparison otherwise Imam should not have used the words 'not only', means fasting in Ramadhan is going to stay and momin in his khayal, keep in mind to obey rules of fasting and acquire Taqwa.
The Seven Pillars were stated over a 1000 years back. The times have changed. During the Alamut period a batini understanding on the pillars were given:

1. Cleanliness (taharat) - to dissociate oneself from previous religions and traditions.
2. Confession of faith (Shahadat) - to know God through Himself.
3. Prayer (Namaz) - to be always speaking about recognition of God.
4. Fasting (Sawm) - to speak with the followers of falsehood using precautionary dissimulation (taqiyyah) in order to maintain continual fasting.
5. Charity (Zakat) - to give to other brothers in religion part of that which God, the Exalted, has given you.
6. Pilgrimage (hajj) - to abandon this temporal world and seek the eternal abode (of the hereafter).
7. Holy war (jihad) - to annihilate oneself in the essence of God, the Exalted.

As times change different interpretations evolve. Further discussion is at:

The Seven Pillars of Ismailism?
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... en+pillars

If you have interpreted the fasting as physical, then you may continue your fasts. But do not imply that everyone should. I don't interprete it that way. To me it is a fast of khyal as clearly indicated.

The Jaferi Madhhab places enormous importance to the notion of ijtihad under Ahl al-Bayt, so there is a lot of room for reinterpretation of faith. It is not fixed to a particular time:

"The blessings of "Ijtihad" as initiated by Ahlul Bayt (A.S.), have continued to serve as guidance for the Muslims ever since, with competent jurists rising up to shoulder the challenging task in every age.

The Imam thus encouraged Islamic learning and the dynamism of Ijtihad among his followers."

http://www.iis.ac.uk/research/academic_ ... nopsis.htm

My argument vs your argument; you wrote," the 7 pillars were stated over a thousand years back, times have changed...". Now my argument is how come
800 years back old philosophy is applicable to day or how come 700 old Vedanit and Ginanic philosophy is applicable in today's environment!! You mostly quote ginans which are 700 years old.
My other question, Is interpretation of 7 pillars which you wrote is yours personally or is it explained by our Imam? Farman is an order to be obeyed and not to be interpreted by you and me or some one else until authorized by Imam or Pir.
If every Ismaili starts interpreting then Ismailism is doomed. Historically you can see many off shoots of Ismailism because of wrong interpretations.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:50 am

mazharshah wrote: Can you quote Farman of any of our Imams that they delivered Farmans from missing 10 chapters of Quran. Need proper references.

Batini concepts and ideas have batini ways of being communicated. In the Ginan Moman Chtamni that I quoted earlier, it is said that the Ginans comprise of the 10 Siparas. Since you are ignorant of the Ginans, the essence of the Ginans is devotion to the Living Imam. You will find tons of references on this. For example

ejee paratak paatra ne parkhee ne, preme pujonee paay
chauda bhraahmann no e dhannee, paragat chhe jugmaa(n)he.....1

Having recognised the Manifest Foam (of divinity, i.e Imaam of the time),
worship Him with love. He is indeed the Master of the fourteen universes
(seven heavens and seven earths) and is physically present in this age.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/3697

Worshipping or being devoted to the Living Imam also includes Farmanbardari! Our tariqah is a tariqah of the intellect.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:06 am

mazharshah wrote:My argument vs your argument; you wrote," the 7 pillars were stated over a thousand years back, times have changed...". Now my argument is how come
800 years back old philosophy is applicable to day or how come 700 old Vedanit and Ginanic philosophy is applicable in today's environment!! You mostly quote ginans which are 700 years old.
My other question, Is interpretation of 7 pillars which you wrote is yours personally or is it explained by our Imam? Farman is an order to be obeyed and not to be interpreted by you and me or some one else until authorized by Imam or Pir.
If every Ismaili starts interpreting then Ismailism is doomed. Historically you can see many off shoots of Ismailism because of wrong interpretations.

The point of quoting the Alamut expression was to demonstrate that the understanding of the principles/practices and their significance varies according to time and context. They are not fixed at a particular point in time. Ginans as per the Farman of the present Imam are a wonderful tradition which need to be followed by generations to come. Hence the message of the Ginans are eternal and applicable to all times unless guidance on specific issues are superceded by the Farmans of the Living Imam.

The particular interpretation of the seven pillars that I quoted is from Paradise of Submission written by Nasiruddin Tusi, a great thinker and writer who wrote under the patronage of Imam Ala al-Din Muhammad. He was also called Sultan al-du'at due to his literary efforts. It is quoted on page 142 and is item - 427 onwards. I strongly recommend you read this important work which will release you from the shackles of your shariati-type thinking.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:20 am

mazharshah wrote:What you want to prove by asking me how many days Prophet fasted or abstained from food! Prophet did fast, so did Mowla Ali and his family members, Imam Baqir, Imam Ja'far and same act of fasting is done by Hazar Imam and his family members. To fast or not to fast is a different story, we can not force any one to fast but it is compulsory to fast in the month of Ramadhan, What Quran, Farman and Ginan says. I have experienced (during discussions) that khoja Ismails want ease and comfort in religious practices. Mostly their attitude is to pay and enter in paradise, that's why they come up with different interpretations to avoid hardships in religious matters.

In our tariqah we do not follow what the Imams/Prophet do but what they tell us. Have you seen MHI reciting Dua with the Jamat in JK? Yet we are required to be regular about it.

To my knowledge there is only one Ginan - Buj Nirinjan which mentions Ramadhan fasting. As I explained in the thread on Buj Nirinjan in the Ginans section, I don't consider it as guidance to the Jamat but guidance to Sufis. If you were to follow Buj Nirinjan as guidance then you will need to pay 50% Dasond! This Ginan is seldom recited in Jamat Khanas. Non of the other Ginans recited regularly mention Ramadhan fast.

There is only ONE Farman that mentions Ramadhan fasting which in my opinion is stating the fast to be of the Khayal and not of food. If fasting was compulsory, don't you think there would have been a few Farmans on that? There are many Farmans of Dua and Dasond, why not Ramadhan fasting?

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:29 am

ya ALI madad.
I feel a member are trying to reply is TOTALLY fxxxxd n screwed up non Ismaili imam hater.
A line of of that of cursed person is real punishement to admin after life.
ADMIN THIS WARNING To YOU as you are the chief disaster in this website.
To hell with with your khojamism n respect for ALI.
YOU ARE ON a cursed path yourself.