momin chetamani

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:01 pm

Aghakhani,
I am still waiting reply on the name of author who translated WAJU DIN.
Need name of that non Ismaili author, who translated mostly all books of Nasir Khusru, and the publishers name. If you don't, means you were bluffing as usual.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:21 pm

A special gift to Mazhar & Tret:-
On the auspicious occasion of 'NAVROZ MUBARAK.
May Ali give them strength to under stand Ismaili sect properly and an true understanding to believe and accept 'ALI IS THE ALLAH"

As a special gift I am givinf them following verses !!!!

Eji Nabi Mohd Mustafa upaviya
Teno chalyo che parivar
Satguri brahma Mohd aek che
Teno karta te vishano var datar Cheto.....

Prophet Muhammed Mustafa was created to complete a mission.
Brahma and Muhammed are one and Vishnu (GOD) became his son-in-law.(H. Ali) means Ali is the God !!!!!!!

Source: Ismaili.net
I added few words.

Eji Te satguru sahebjieay sreva kari
Shukrana kidha ati apaar
Ali ne te allah orakhiyo
Te mahain shak na aanio lagaar Cheto.....

So Momins, serve that Lord and be thankful for ""Ali is Allah"" and do not ever doubt it. (WAH BHAI WAH )

Eji Ali allah je koie manshe
Teno pir te Nabi Mohammed avtar
Je nabi jini aal mahain thi upajshe
Te pir musalle saar Cheto....

Those who will acknowledge "Ali as Allah", they are indeed equivalent
to Pir and Nabi, and one can call them as from Nabi.

tret · Post by **tret** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:42 pm

why are we then blaming ahl-e-zahir and labelling them as shariati/zahiri etc... while you are taking the literal meaning of ginans???

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:54 pm

Because you and Mazhar has been lost even after we are giving you guys so many proofs one after another but you both have not wake up yet.!
Afsos ki baat hai! For those who is blind in this world they will be also blind in AAKHARAT! TOO.

Post by **Admin** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 2:55 pm

agakhani wrote:
Source: Ismaili.net
I added few words.

You can not assign to ismaili.net your "I added few words" - this is not only unethical but out of order. By doing that you have discredited yourself completely. Who will now trust any quote you will provide when people know you are manipulating sentences!

I will be deleting the last few messages tonight because of this.

You are expected to put the Translation in one post and follow it by your comments in the next post or clearly separate the comments by a full line below the translation.

Henceforth, I do not want to see anything mixed up with any translation and mingle the sense of any verse and then assign it wrongly to whoever or worse to ismaili.net. If you quote a translation, respect its integrity.

Post by **Admin** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:44 pm

mazhar wrote:Aghakhani,
I am still waiting reply on the name of author who translated WAJU DIN.
Need name of that non Ismaili author, who translated mostly all books of Nasir Khusru, and the publishers name. If you don't, means you were bluffing as usual.

Since Agakhani will not be replying, I suggest that you go to this link and start reading some of the works mentionned. These are works by late Professor Ivanow, many on Khusraw.

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/doc/author/Ivanow

You may also want to read: Wajh-i Din (ed. by Ghulam Reza Aavani, Tehran, 1977

and this one:

The dogmatism of Pamirian Ismailism based on the tenth chapter of the Wajh-i Din by Nasir-i Khusraw
Notes

Transl. into Russian with an introduction by Semenov ; DETAILS: K Dogmatike Pamirskogo Ismailizma, XI glava 'Litsa verui' Nasir-i Khosrova [The dogmatism of Pamirian Ismailism based on the tenth chapter of the Wajh-i Din by Nasir-i Khusraw]. Transl. into Russian with an introduction by Semenov. Tashkent, 1926.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:03 pm

Admin,

Do you really wants to know why I am not replying this guy? because even I send him the whole scanned copy of Wajah e din even this he will not believe it. Period
Because his aims are different then you think.

But since you also join with him in his bandwagyon and strting fo favours him then I will post the names of the publisher and author tomorrow. but it will be a fruitless efforts from my side.he will (mazhar a demonio ) never give up and when this time when you are joined with him!

Admin, Are you accepted defeats from this anti propagandist? Are you forget!? This is the same guy who founds mistakes in Imam"s farmans not long ago?

BTW: Shinan lives in Karachi and I in Austin, Texas! I never seen Ismaili103 .period. but I know his parents.

tret · Post by **tret** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 4:59 pm

Admin wrote:
mazhar wrote:Aghakhani,
I am still waiting reply on the name of author who translated WAJU DIN.
Need name of that non Ismaili author, who translated mostly all books of Nasir Khusru, and the publishers name. If you don't, means you were bluffing as usual.
Since Agakhani will not be replying, I suggest that you go to this link and start reading some of the works mentionned. These are works by late Professor Ivanow, many on Khusraw.

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/doc/author/Ivanow

You may also want to read: Wajh-i Din (ed. by Ghulam Reza Aavani, Tehran, 1977

and this one:

The dogmatism of Pamirian Ismailism based on the tenth chapter of the Wajh-i Din by Nasir-i Khusraw
Notes

Transl. into Russian with an introduction by Semenov ; DETAILS: K Dogmatike Pamirskogo Ismailizma, XI glava 'Litsa verui' Nasir-i Khosrova [The dogmatism of Pamirian Ismailism based on the tenth chapter of the Wajh-i Din by Nasir-i Khusraw]. Transl. into Russian with an introduction by Semenov. Tashkent, 1926.

Admin

The link you provided; how can we access the books listed there?

Thanks.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:06 pm

Mazhar, khusyali Mubarak.

Here we go...

Here are some verses from Anant Akhado( as you want ref from OFFICIAL PIRS GINANS).

In below 2 verse PIR HASSAN clearly said that HE IS GUR BHRAMA( craetor of the universe)/ MUHAMMAD.

Aashaajee Jug kartaa maanhe ek kalaa rachaayaa
tees maanhe ham-kun jaanno jee
beejaa jug maanhe Veejeshthann kaheeyen
sobee ham avtaar........................Haree anant..374

Oh Lord During the era of Kerta the Lord created a manifestation
I(Pir Hassan Kabirdin) was that manifestation (as Gur
Brahma)
In the Treta Jug the manifestation was called
Veejeshthann
even that was my manifestation
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Jug Dwaapur maanhe Veedur-vyaas kaheeyen
sobee ham-kun jaanno jee
Kal-jug maanhe ham-hi jaanno
sohee Rasul naam........................Haree anant..375

Oh Lord In the Dwaapur Jug the name of the manifestation of Gur
Brahma was Veedur-vyaas
Even He was our form
In the Kal-jug we are the manifestation of Gur Brahma
and it is the same light of the Messenger(Prophet
Muhammed)
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Hasnaapuree maanhe takhatej bettha
kenne tyaan na jaannyaa jee
Gur Bhramaa Peer Sadardeen pota
tenne keedhaa nehaar....................Haree anant..277

Oh Lord In the place of Hasnaapuri He is seated on the throne
nobody recognised Him there
Peer Sadardin who is the bearer of Prophetic Light
(Gur Bhramaa) reached there
He showed His affection for the Lord
(and was blessed with the spiritual enlightenment)
Haree You are eternal...

Aashaajee Amne sohee Gur Bhramaa-jee thaapeeyaa
tyaare te ek jeev karee deetthaa jee
naanaa mottaa sarve ek-j deetthaa
nahee koi heennaa na kheennaa...........Haree anant..171

Oh Lord It is the light of prophethood(Nur-e-Nabuwwah) that
has established us(mankind)
At that time He saw us as one universal soul
He saw the small ones and the big ones as one
nobody was regarded as lower or higher
Haree You are eternal...

I will come up with the GINAN OF PIR SHAMS AND PIR SADARDIN IN WHICH THEY SAID THEY ARE CREATOR OF UNIVERSES. LATER.

Those who said in previous post that ONLY WE ISMAILIS ARE LUCKY THAT WE HAVE ALI ALLAH AND OTHER 6 billion ARE NOT... IS THIS THE EQUALITY BY ALLAH.

I think MAZHAR YOU OR TRET SAID THIS. so here is the answer for your question by PIR HASSAN KABIRUDDIN.

Aashaajee Kalaa sarve kalaa maanhe bettha
duneeyaa maanhe kalaa nav jaanne koi jee
khotti kali maanhe cheti karee chaalo
raakho puraa Imaan......................Haree anant..389

Oh Lord All the manifestations(avataars) are established upon
previous manifestations(light upon light)
In this world nobody(outside the jamaat) knows the
manifestations
In this difficult and false present era be vigilant
and maintain complete Faith
Haree You are eternal.

Atlast for those whi critisizing GINANS and didnot learn or belive in GINAN.

HERE IS THE VERSE FROM ANANT AKHADO FOR THEM.

Aashaajee Kal jug kuddo sahu paakhandde raache
andhele janam gumaayaa jee
neechee preete te jeev chaale
je nahee veechaare geenaan..............Haree anant..391
Oh Lord The present era is false and everyone lives in a
deceptive manner
They are the blind ones(faithless) who have lost
this human birth(opportunity)
The one who loves the lower things
is the one who does not reflect upon the ginaans
Haree You are eternal

By the way mazhar i'm only 19 and even didnot completed my HRE PART 2. REC teacher to dur ki baat ha... Chotu mia.

Post by **Admin** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 1:46 am

tret wrote: The link you provided; how can we access the books listed there?

Thanks.

Actually you can get it through Inter Library Loan at your local University.

here is an interesting one also when you visit the university library (I think McGill Univ. has it)

1928
Authors Semenov, A.
Volume and Pages VOLUME: II ; PAGES: pp.1-24
Place Iran
Key Words Russian; Bibliography
Notes
An Ismaili ode dedicated to the incarnations of Ali-God, containing the Qasida-i-Dhurriya by Raqqami Khurasani, and also a list of Imams given by an Iranian Ismaili of the seventeenth century ; DETAILS: "Ismailitskaya oda, posviashchennaya voploshcheniyam `Aliya-Boga"' [An Ismaili ode dedicated to the incarnations of Ali-God, containing the Qasida-i-Dhurriya by Raqqami Khurasani, and also a list of Imams given by an Iranian Ismaili of the seventeenth century], Iran II (1928): 1-24.

fayaz006 · Post by **fayaz006** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 7:57 am

fayaz006 wrote: Eternal Imam who is separated from God...

Dear Fayaz,

I didn't imply that. You concluded this. Let me further elaborate...

The First contingent reality (The Intellect) is identified by the Command [This latter is the Essence of God/Transcendent]. This is Tawhid. The Intellect is not separate, but at the same time, it's not one with the Essence of God. That's the reason, when we say unity with the Divine, it's actually being identified with the Divine, and not dissolved or submerged into the Divine.

The Oneness is found in One. Think of it this way. The colour white[or Whiteness] is only found in a white object. So, the Universal Intellect HAS to be actualized and Perfect and realizes the True Essence of Almighty because it came into existence with NO mediation. And therefore, all the "Beautiful Names" and attributes such as Al-Rahman, Al-Qadir, Al-Rahim is referred to the secondary reality, and not to the Transcendent/Supreme God. Because, according to Surah Ikhlas, The Supreme God can not be the cause of something, nor it's caused by something. It's beyond Cause and effect and existence and non-existence. That's the position of Ismailis in recognition of Tawhid and Ikhlas.

In the Qur'an the properties [I'd rather call it Names] belongs to the Kingdome of God, that's the secondary reality [Wajib-ul-wujud], and not to Supreme God Himself. Because The Transcendent God is beyond the attributes of Al-Rahman and Al-Qadir. This is true Tawhid.

In Surah Ikhlas it says God is not born of anyone, nor anyone is born from God. In its literal sense it refers as Son and Father/Father and son; but in its esoteric exegesis, it means that The Supreme God is not cause of anything and nothing has caused God. The secondary contingent reality [The Intellect] and then the Potential perfect emanation from the Intellect [The Universal Soul] is the cause of causes and effects, and as such not the Transcendent God.

I can bet you, that in the Ginans the same philosophy is articulated.[/quote]

Hello Tret Navroz Mubarak
I did conclude that your belief would be that God and Eternal Imam are seperate. However if you contend that they are not than welcome to the Satpanth tradition.
Also to your point of identifying with the divine , I would like to say that sathpantis would argue that we are merged or dissolved with the divine. Hence Aliullah or Ali sahi Allah or Ali is Allah. Your take on Surah Ikhlas is also very valid however I think then we are thinking of God in monotheist terms or exoteric Islam.

Ismaili103 although I did not finish my RE in Pakistan I did ask my mother wether she knew the ginans that we were discussing. To my surprise she them and she knows quite a few by heart . It's a shame we are not harping on this tradition more in the US.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:26 am

Mazhar,

You only ask me the name of the translator and publishers which are as follows:

Book Name: WAJAH -E- DIN
ORIGINAL WRITTEN BY: SYED SHAH NASIR KHUSHRU (R.A.) IN PERSIAN
TRANSLATOR: DR. GULAM ABBAS DALAL (PHD)
PUBLISHER: DAROOL ILM PRAKASHAN -MUMBAI
YEAR OF PUBLICATION: 1991
LANGUAGE: GUJARATI.

I borrowed from local library and read it.

Author Nāṣir-i Khusraw, 1004-approximately 1088.
Title Vajh-i dīn / Nāṣir-i Khusraw ; bih taṣḥīḥ va taḥshīyah va muqaddamah-ʼi Ghulāmriz̤ā Aʻvānī ; muqaddamah-ʼi Inglīsī-ʼi Sayyid Ḥusayn Naṣr.
Added title Wajh-i dīn
Face of religion
Publication Information Tihrān : Anjūman-i Shāhanshāhī-ʼi Falsafah-ʼi Īrān, 2536 [1977]

Description 362 p. ; 24 cm.
Note : In Persian; pref. in English by S. H. Naṣr.
Bibliography Includes bibliographical references and indexes.
Series Intishārāt-i Anjuman-i Shāhanshāhī-i Falsafah-ʼi Īrān ; shumārah-ʼi 34.
Subject Ismailites.
Islam -- Doctrines -- Early works to 1800.
Added author Nasr, Seyyed Hossein.
Aʻvānī, Ghulām Riz̤ā.
OCLC number 16731423

I scanned and saved few pages of these books just in case!!!!! "Kyoki
GADHE KABHI LAAT MARNA NAHI BHULTE"!! aur purani aadat jaldi se chhutti nahi!!"

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:30 am

By the way mazhar i'm only 19 and even didnot completed my HRE PART 2. REC teacher to dur ki baat ha... Chotu mia.

Why don't you tell him that you also live in Karachi not in USA?

Thanks for the some verses of " Ananat Akhado"

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:37 am

Fayaz,

Yaa Ali Madad and Khusyali Mubarak.

Are you talking about MOMAN CHETAMNI.

HERE in pakistan the serious problem is that only limited around 15 Ginans are ricited in JK Since childhood till now I only listen around 10 to 15 Ginans in JK.

Granths like moman chetamni. Moman chitveni, boudh avatar, bavan ghati, many selected verses of anant akhado are totally banned.

I dont know about USA, is there has a same problem ?

I hear once that " BHAGAT KADA RUDA WROTE IN HIS BOOK THAT" our PIRS wrote around 10 million verses of GINANS. Just think about it if each verse has 3 lines so we have 30 millions lines of JEWELS and PEARLS

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:49 am

agakhani wrote:
By the way mazhar i'm only 19 and even didnot completed my HRE PART 2. REC teacher to dur ki baat ha... Chotu mia.
Why don't you tell him that you also live in Karachi not in USA?, woh gadha yeh samjata hai ki ham dono ek hai : Shinan bro.

Thanks for the some verses of " Ananat Akhado"

Agakhai bhai Khusyali Mubarak.

BTW AGAKHANI BHAI, Let him assuming thinks, he has some serious problem. First he assuming that IMAM NEVER SAID THAT HE IS ALLAH. than we provide him Farman. Second he assume PIRS DIDNOT SAID ALI IS ALLAH. and you know what happen to him. Now he is assuming you and me are one ID.

tret · Post by **tret** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 11:40 am

fayaz006 wrote: Hello Tret Navroz Mubarak
I did conclude that your belief would be that God and Eternal Imam are seperate. However if you contend that they are not than welcome to the Satpanth tradition.
Also to your point of identifying with the divine , I would like to say that sathpantis would argue that we are merged or dissolved with the divine. Hence Aliullah or Ali sahi Allah or Ali is Allah. Your take on Surah Ikhlas is also very valid however I think then we are thinking of God in monotheist terms or exoteric Islam.

Ismaili103 although I did not finish my RE in Pakistan I did ask my mother wether she knew the ginans that we were discussing. To my surprise she them and she knows quite a few by heart . It's a shame we are not harping on this tradition more in the US.

Dear Fayaz, Navroz mubarak to you as well.

I think it's crucial to realize the distinction between the Essence and the First (Intellect). The fact that Intellect can not be separate from the Essence is the notion of Tawhid, but at the same time the distinction has to be maintained. Conclusion: They are not ONE, but they are not separate either. Rather, the First is continuously being identified by the Essence. i.e. Intellect is found in the Wrod. Anyways, this is my belief which I have seen in the works of elite Ismaili philosophers and theologians as well Hujjats of the Imams and teachings of Hujjats is teachings of Imams.

What you say on the other hand, is the concept adhered by sufis. The principals of Ta'lim/Imamate/Tawhid sets apart ISmailis and sufis; however, principal of personal search and balance overlaps between Ismailis and sufis as indicated by MHI.

Nasir Khusraw [Tusi as well] says sirat-ul-mustaqim is to be between over-exaggeration and under-estimation of the status of the Imam. Meaning that we must not over-exaggerate His status [i.e. Imam is God], nor we must under-estimate His status [i.e. Imam is an ordinary human being]. Nasir also in his "Knowledge and Liberation" refers to a group as "Meemya" and "haineeya". These names derived from the letter persian "Meem" [M] and "Hain" [A]. M for Mohammad and A for Ali. These groups consider Mohammad or Ali to be God and Nasir very harshly refutes their claim giving very strong philosophical and logical reasoning. Tusi in his Paradise of Submission explains very in details the notion of Imamate and the concept of Perfect Teacher which emphasizes to maintain the distinction between disciple and the Master and the way it explains the concept of Taw'id is in the same manner.

As far as agakhani and ismaili103 is concern; I really don't think they really understand what I am explaining. All they know, is to throw some verse of ginan without even knowing their true implications. in a verse when it's referred to Imam as Creator or Sustainer, they say that means Imam is Allah, for example.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:05 pm

All they know, is to throw some verse of ginan without even knowing their true implications. in a verse when it's referred to Imam as Creator or Sustainer, they say that means Imam is Allah, for example.

Tret,

Yes, I know true implications of all ginans, not the few verses I just put yesterday!! but I know the meaning of all ginans, I mean lots better than you because I have studied ginans deeply since my childhood when I was 6 years old ! I also know better interpretation of Quran lots better than you guys! ! so next time keep your damn mouth shut.

In past you have been proved wrong many times but you have always bounced back with your same old garbage thoughts!! which are just a trash , nothing else!

Not only I, but many other participants has also proved you wrong many times before; like Shams B, Kbhai, Admin, Nuseri , Shinan, Shiraz Virani and many more, we all have showed and provided references from Farmans of previous imams, showing old Du'a, showing ginans and granths and proved that ALI IS THE ALLAH" but here again !!! you come with same old thinking, so far nothing has been changed in you and that is sad.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 12:48 pm

Tret,

Khusyali Mubarak

Ok, my understanding on previous Ginans are wrong and your understanding is right.

Now let me tell your understanding on the previous GINANIC VERSES in which Pir said ALI IS ALLAH AND DONOT DOUBT THAT.

Let us know your understanding.

Let us know your MULTITUDE GOD PHILOSOPHY, I mean one God is eternal Imam( Allah of 6 billion human) and other is transcendent ( creator of the creator).

fayaz006 · Post by **fayaz006** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:05 pm

tret wrote:
fayaz006 wrote: Hello Tret Navroz Mubarak

Dear Fayaz, Navroz mubarak to you as well.

I think it's crucial to realize the distinction between the Essence and the First (Intellect). The fact that Intellect can not be separate from the Essence is the notion of Tawhid, but at the same time the distinction has to be maintained. Conclusion: They are not ONE, but they are not separate either. Rather, the First is continuously being identified by the Essence. i.e.

Tret the above argument tries to marry Monotheism and Monorealism, its a contradiction. Either the Intellect and the Essence are joined or they are separate. If Tawhid is Oneness that there is no spiritual separation. The ginans endorsed by the Imams argue that they are the same. The writing of later Ismaili literature argue that they are the same.

If you are hell bent on not budging from your philosophy that is ok. Just keep in mind that just almost every member of this website disagrees with you. That does not render your philosophy wrong, but may not make you right either.

Again the thoughts of Ismaili103, Km and several others are all in line with Ginans and Farmans of previous Imams. So do you still wish to maintain your position that these individuals who have been brought up with the ginanic tradition have gotten all wrong.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:07 pm

Admin

Joined: 06 Jan 2003
Posts: 2929

Posted: 20 Mar 2015 10:44 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mazhar wrote:
Aghakhani,
I am still waiting reply on the name of author who translated WAJU DIN.
Need name of that non Ismaili author, who translated mostly all books of Nasir Khusru, and the publishers name. If you don't, means you were bluffing as usual.

Since Agakhani will not be replying, I suggest that you go to this link and start reading some of the works mentionned. These are works by late Professor Ivanow, many on Khusraw.

http://www.ismaili.net/heritage/doc/author/Ivanow

You may also want to read: Wajh-i Din (ed. by Ghulam Reza Aavani, Tehran, 1977

and this one:

The dogmatism of Pamirian Ismailism based on the tenth chapter of the Wajh-i Din by Nasir-i Khusraw
Notes

Transl. into Russian with an introduction by Semenov ; DETAILS: K Dogmatike Pamirskogo Ismailizma, XI glava 'Litsa verui' Nasir-i Khosrova [The dogmatism of Pamirian Ismailism based on the tenth chapter of the Wajh-i Din by Nasir-i Khusraw]. Transl. into Russian with an introduction by Semenov. Tashkent, 1926.

Admins, thanx for information on Wajhu din.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 10:26 pm

kmaherali

Joined: 27 Mar 2003
Posts: 10362

Posted: 19 Mar 2015 01:24 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

mazhar wrote:
Kmaherali, there is problem, you complicated the philosophy. God is father and God is son at same time, now who is the mother! Is it not like father, Mary and son
story according your assertion.
At the time of Hazarat Ali's marriage his father Hazarat Abu Talib was the Imam. Hence there were two mazhars of Allah - Father the actual and son the potential.

You are making a big deal out of nothing!

Reply to Kmaherali,
Km, I am not making a big deal out of nothing, but you are cunfusing me.
There is no name of Hazrat Abu Talib as a Imam in the 6th part of our Du'a. Now you are talking two Imams and two mazhars at same time. One hidden and one apperent. One actual and one potential, but at same time there is Natiq also present and one more would be Potential Imam Hussain as Imam Mustaqir and Hazrat Hasan as Imam Mustawda also present. Please explain.

Post by **Admin** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:05 am

Imam Mustawda and Mustakir should not be discussed here, there is already a thred on that subject.

Please keep to the subject of the thread.

tret · Post by **tret** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:13 pm

Fayaz - Why do you say this argument is a contradiction? contradiction to what? Please explain yourself clearly.

On the contrary, I explained [or tried to explain] the concept of Taw'hid, based on my understanding from the works of Hujjats and Dai's of Ismailis, providing you [credible and authentic] references and you are more than welcome to inform yourself.

- when you say "Essence and Intellect must be the same": Please provide any reference, beside your own opinion.

Fayaz - What I am trying to articulate, is not my own invented philosophy. But this is the teachings of our very own Hujjats of the Imam of the Time. Having said that, I don't believe the rule of majority holds any truth or is valid. I could argue that ahl-e-sunnah [or even Christianity] in number are more than ismailis; does that make our tariqa right or wrong?? It doesn't bother me at all that every member of this site is disagreeing with me. Just FYI, there were other participants who have just stopped coming to this site, because of inconsistencies. I might as well do the same at some point. Difference of opinion is alright, so long as it is express it in a civilized manner. But, if that can not be maintained, one is not obliged to participate.

Everyone is entitled to their own belief and opinion. There are millions of people in india who believe elephants and cows are god, is it my business??? I tried to provide authentic references, inline with Ismaili Muslim Doctrine. You are more than welcome to reject'em.

Hafiz says: Your [Hafiz's] duty is to say prayer --- Don't bother if one listens to it or not.

BTW, it's Navroz Mubarak, first of all. Second, it's not "Khusyali Mubarak", it is Khushalli Mubarak

tret · Post by **tret** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:18 pm

Admin wrote:
tret wrote: The link you provided; how can we access the books listed there?

Thanks.
Actually you can get it through Inter Library Loan at your local University.

here is an interesting one also when you visit the university library (I think McGill Univ. has it)

1928
Authors Semenov, A.
Volume and Pages VOLUME: II ; PAGES: pp.1-24
Place Iran
Key Words Russian; Bibliography
Notes
An Ismaili ode dedicated to the incarnations of Ali-God, containing the Qasida-i-Dhurriya by Raqqami Khurasani, and also a list of Imams given by an Iranian Ismaili of the seventeenth century ; DETAILS: "Ismailitskaya oda, posviashchennaya voploshcheniyam `Aliya-Boga"' [An Ismaili ode dedicated to the incarnations of Ali-God, containing the Qasida-i-Dhurriya by Raqqami Khurasani, and also a list of Imams given by an Iranian Ismaili of the seventeenth century], Iran II (1928): 1-24.

Is it only at McGill or other universities as well?

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:48 pm

Tret,

We are not here to correct spelings becuz it pronounce same, might be you are here to discuss every thing except ismailism.

Post by **Admin** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 1:59 pm

tret wrote:
1928
Authors Semenov, A.
Volume and Pages VOLUME: II ; PAGES: pp.1-24
Place Iran
Key Words Russian; Bibliography
Notes
An Ismaili ode dedicated to the incarnations of Ali-God, containing the Qasida-i-Dhurriya by Raqqami Khurasani, and also a list of Imams given by an Iranian Ismaili of the seventeenth century ; DETAILS: "Ismailitskaya oda, posviashchennaya voploshcheniyam `Aliya-Boga"' [An Ismaili ode dedicated to the incarnations of Ali-God, containing the Qasida-i-Dhurriya by Raqqami Khurasani, and also a list of Imams given by an Iranian Ismaili of the seventeenth century], Iran II (1928): 1-24.

Is it only at McGill or other universities as well?

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I saw it at McGill but surely you can find it in many Universities libraries especially if the university has a department of islamic Studies.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:13 pm

tret wrote:
kmaherali wrote:]
MSMS has said in his Farman that we must turn our toughts to Sufism. In the Amman Conference statement the Imam said:
Our historic adherence is to the Jafari Madhhab and other Madhahib of close affinity, and it continues, under the leadership of the hereditary Ismaili Imam of the time. This adherence is in harmony also with our acceptance of Sufi principles of personal search and balance between the zahir and the spirit or the intellect which the zahir signifies.
So from the practical point of view we are very close to Sufism except for the doctrine of the Mursheed who is permanent in our case.
Apart from personal search and balance, there's nothing in common with sufism.

ISmailis believe in the concept of Imamat, sufis don't.
Ismailis maintains the distinction between murid and mursheed, sufis don't.
Ismailis believe in balance of din and dunya, sufis forsake din for dunya.
ISmailis believe Imam is the Mursheed-e-Kamil/Lord/Master of Masters, sufis say, everyone can be mursheed.

kmaherali - you quote one thing from Imam, then you believe something else.

kmaherali wrote: We have been through this before. The office of the Imamate is hereditory and permanent, in which case there will always be a need to have a permanent Imam. However individuals can attain the status of Fanna through the help of other Mursheed Kameels. Rumi attained Fanna through the help of Shams who was Fanna.

If Fanna could only be available through the Imam, the implication is that the rest of mankind are excluded from the experience!
we have been through this before, then you must be correct then!!!

That's exactly the believe of non-ismailis, who don't subscribe to the concept of Imamate!!!! That's why ulima of ahl-e-sunnah, such as al-ghizali opposed the concept of Imamate, claiming that anyone can attain the higher status and there's no need for an Imam, and therefore, the concept of Imamate is void!!! Do you really see where this is going???

Read Paradise of Submission, where Tusi gives clear-cut reason why the presence of Imam is important.

kmaherali wrote: here can be only one functioning Imam who is recognised as such. But there can be many beings who could attain the status of Fanna and hence be Allah (in simple language of course).

Qur'an mentions that Allah manifested in a tree to commuicate with Moses!
Honestly, I don't know if that even makes any sense.

kmaherali wrote:
tret wrote:
If what you say is true, then you imply that all previous Imams / Hujjats and even Prophets got it wrong who Allah is, and now thanks to khoja jama'at that showed the truth and finally everyone know Ali is God????
I wonder whether you ever read the posts. I have posted several times and I post again!!

Nasir Khusraw has said in Kalame Pir: "The Imam is the Hujjat or Proof of God and it is for this reason some Imams have said, "What is said about God refers also to us.".
kmaherali - Please give any logical reason how do you conclude "Imam is Allah" from this quote of Nasir-Khusraw???

Like I said, you quote one thing, and imply something totally different.

Hazarat Ali has said:
Everything is based upon reason and the reason is itself polite.

The most eloquent answer to a fool is silence.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:20 pm

fayaz006 wrote:There are several others but i cant think of them on the top of my head. I have read about God's promise to man of Peace in Eternity in the Quran but nothing about animals.

Also read excerpts from the following book

The Animals Lawsuit Against Humanity
A Muslim Work Translated By A Rabbi
For A 14th Century Christian King
Translated by Rabbi Anson Laytner

Again the theme was since man was promised an afterlife his responsibility in the world is greater, than the beasts'.

On page 5 of this thread I have mentioned about the Pirs and the animals. You may want to review it.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 4:54 pm

agakhani

Joined: 07 May 2008
Posts: 1994
Location: TEXAS. U.S.A.
Posted: 21 Mar 2015 03:26 am Post subject:

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Mazhar,

You only ask me the name of the translator and publishers which are as follows:

Book Name: WAJAH -E- DIN
ORIGINAL WRITTEN BY: SYED SHAH NASIR KHUSHRU (R.A.) IN PERSIAN
TRANSLATOR: DR. GULAM ABBAS DALAL (PHD)
PUBLISHER: DAROOL ILM PRAKASHAN -MUMBAI
YEAR OF PUBLICATION: 1991
LANGUAGE: GUJARATI.

I borrowed from local library and read it.

Author Nāṣir-i Khusraw, 1004-approximately 1088.
Title Vajh-i dīn / Nāṣir-i Khusraw ; bih taṣḥīḥ va taḥshīyah va muqaddamah-ʼi Ghulāmriz̤ā Aʻvānī ; muqaddamah-ʼi Inglīsī-ʼi Sayyid Ḥusayn Naṣr.
Added title Wajh-i dīn
Face of religion
Publication Information Tihrān : Anjūman-i Shāhanshāhī-ʼi Falsafah-ʼi Īrān, 2536 [1977]

Description 362 p. ; 24 cm.
Note : In Persian; pref. in English by S. H. Naṣr.
Bibliography Includes bibliographical references and indexes.
Series Intishārāt-i Anjuman-i Shāhanshāhī-i Falsafah-ʼi Īrān ; shumārah-ʼi 34.
Subject Ismailites.
Islam -- Doctrines -- Early works to 1800.
Added author Nasr, Seyyed Hossein.
Aʻvānī, Ghulām Riz̤ā.
OCLC number 16731423

I scanned and saved few pages of these books just in case!!!!! "Kyoki
GADHE KABHI LAAT MARNA NAHI BHULTE"!! aur purani aadat jaldi se chhutti nahi!!"

Reply to Aghakhani; Thanks for your information.
Ak, one thing worries me about you, when you look into mirror you see image of ass. This is not a good sign, please consult a psychiatrist.

tret · Post by **tret** » Sun Mar 22, 2015 6:23 pm

kmaherali wrote: Hazarat Ali has said:
Everything is based upon reason and the reason is itself polite.

The most eloquent answer to a fool is silence.

Truly your silence would be necessary in that case. But, you didn't keep your silence! So, likewise!

www.ismaili.net

momin chetamani

Navroz Mubarak with special gift.

Re: Navroz Mubarak with special gift.

Re: Navroz Mubarak with special gift.