momin chetamani

[zznoor]

kmeherali wrote:
The notion of reincarnation is universal and not restricted to Ismailism. I even pointed to a link providing an anecdotal proof to that effect. I wonder if you read the chapter.

Belief in Reinvarntion is Kufr in Islam. There is difference between Reincarnation and Resurrection. Tie has been debated over and over.

[kmaherali]

Belief in Reinvarntion is Kufr in Islam. There is difference between Reincarnation and Resurrection. Tie has been debated over and over.

It would be better to say: "According to my interpretation, belief in reincarnation is Kufr. There are multiple interpretations of Islam. There are verses from the Qur'an which can be interpreted as reincarnation:

2:28 How can you reject faith in Allah, seeing that you were without life and He gave you life, then He will cause you to die,and will again bring you to life, and again to Him will you return.

3:27 Thou bringest the living out of the dead, and Thou bringest the dead out of the living; and Thou givest sustenance to whom Thou pleasest, without measure.

22:66 It is He Who gave you life, will cause you to die, and will again give you life. Truly, man is a most ungrateful creature.

36:12 Verily, We shall give life to the dead, and We record that which they send before and that which they leave behind...

36:79 Say: "He will give them life again, He Who created them for the first time !"

Did you read the chapter I provided the link for?

[Admin]

And reincarnation in a lower life for those who worship evil


5:60

Yusuf Ali: Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"

[tret]

However those who choose an authentic Mursheed as in our Tariqah, do not ascribe to it because the purpose of choosing a Mursheed is to break the cycle of rebirths and to become Fanna.

kmaherali - The question is very simple and logical.

The incarnation [on earth] it's either true or false. There's no exception or extreme cases.
the way you put it together, appears that you concur with the notion of reincarnation [physically on this earth]. Doesn't matter if you say in extreme cases or on a regular basis. So, that's all i wanted to hear from you. I can conclude that you ascribe in the notion of reincarnation. I am totally fine with that. I don't!

But, we must remember what MSMS said about re-incarnation.

[Admin]

Reincarnation can be discussed in one of the other threads

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... de=results

[kmaherali]

But, we must remember what MSMS said about re-incarnation.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, the Imam has given both views. So it is not a clear issue of whether it is or not. One will have to find a way to reconcile his apparently contradictory statements.

What I have expressed is my way of reconciling them.

[agakhani]

Though Syed Imam Shah was not a pir, but still he called himself a Pir.
1. DHAN DHAN TEY SATGUR IMAM SHAH NEY KAHIYEN
JEENEY SATGUREY GINAN KANTHIO VICHAAR. PART # 628.

SATGUREY JEEVU DHETHUN TEYVUN KAHIYUN
AAPNEY SAHU NEY JAAVUN CHHEY SAHEB NEY DUWAAR PAT

Here is lie # 1!
KBhai and I do not sees the word "Pir" in above ginanic verses! but Syed Imam Shah has used the word "Satguru.

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2. Those who do not believe in Quran and Shariat, Please check these parts. 
ILM ALLAH JI BHEJIA 
FARD FARMAWIYA FURQAN MAHEN. PART # 8 (FURQAN MEANS QURAN ) 

FARD FURQANEY THI UPPANA 
TEY TOU PARWARIYAPROTHAMI MAHEN 
SHARIAT TARIQAT HAQIQAT 
TENI MAILUM CHHEY MARIFAT MAHEN. PART # 9 

I, know who you point about this!!? but Yes, I, as a Muslim first and Ismaili second I believe in Quran but not the incomplete, altered and edited or omitted Quran! if you have complete quran which H. Ali was about to introduced then let me know, I will start to read it every day!
Meanwhile enjoy this:
ખોટા પુસ્તક ખોટા પાનિયા, ખોટા કાજીના કુરાન,

અસલજાદી ચુડો પહેરશે, એવા આગમના એંધાણ.

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3.Tabriz is used 2 times.Syed Imam Shah mentioned Pir Shams was from Tabriz, though he was from subzwar. PART 204, PART 205. 

Pir Sahms had too many nick names Like
1, Sabjwari
2, Daria
3, Chot
4, Kalandar
5, Shamsi
So it may be possible that "Tabrej" might be his ''TAKHALLUS" too!!

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4.Daswand was started in subcontinent and not in Arabia at time of Prophet Muhammad. 
TEENEY BODHINEY KHOJA KAIYA 
ANEY AAPIO TEY DHARAM AACHAR 
TIYAN THI SATPANTH CHALIO 
DASWAND TANU VIAWAAR. PART # 199. 

This is also a wrong accusation on Dasond : Dasond was started even before Syed Imam shah, Pir Sadardin and even Pir shams it was first started by Pir Satgur Noor in Indo-Pak sub continents but the reality is "Dasond" was there even before pir Satgur Noor.

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5. About Amrapuri means heaven, Syed Imam Shah mentions the SUNNI idea of heaven. 
AMRAPURI MA NENA GHAR CHUNAVIYA 
TEMA JAR TAR HERA MANEK PADARTH SAAR 
SOWAN EENTEY TENA GHAR CHUNAVIYA 
TEMA NAKHIYA CHHEY AMBER KASTURINA GGAR PART # 522. 

HURAUN PACHAAS (50) TEY GHAR MA RAKHSUN 
TEENU EEK TEY THAISEY BHARTAAR 
PAACH SAU (500) PUTAR TEY JEEV NA THAISEY 
TEY TOU FARMANIRAMSEY TE GHAR MINJAAR. PART # 523. 

PANCH SAU MALLAIK TENA HUZUR MA RAHESEY 
TE TOU FARMANI RAHESEY EY GHAR MINJAAR 
TE TOU ASU JHALINEY UBHA RAHESEY 
ANEY SAHIL KARAWEY SARAG MINJAAR. PART # 524 ( JUST IMAGINE 50 HURS, 500 SONS AND NO DAUGHRES ) 

Do you wants 50 Huras?
Are you want to go above heaven?
According SMS 'SWARG E TO GHODA NO TABELO CHHE!!
I don't, want go in that heaven. period.
Brother, these all are allegorical and symbolic expressions to attract peoples to do good deeds. let me give you an example : we give candy to crying kid to make him stop, do not we? whatever you wrote above just a temptation for the peoples so that they do good deeds in lure of 50 those Huras and so on!
But in my thinking there is no geographical places for heaven or hell!. and where!

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6. IN PART 139, who was sardar , for whom Mowla Ali said, obey Him so that you can get salvation. 

Please write all ginan verses of part 139 I do not have parts in my ginan book. However Kbhai answered it but I want to make sure.

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7. Approx. in 70 parts he wrote to pay daswand, dhaan, and aahaar, but only few times on iman. Though he was not pir but insisted to pay 40% to him. 
CHALIO AMARU AALJO 
PIR MUREED NU EY CHHEY VAHVAAR. PART # 142, PART 360 

Pirs only receives 2.5% and other goes to Mowla.

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8. Pir Shams visited 24 cities and not 24 countries. 
TE TOU PHARIYA MULK CHOVEES MAHEN. PART # 205. 

Yes that is true ! not only Syed Imam Shah but Pir Sadardin, Pir Hasan Kabirdin also mentioned it and Pir Shams him self gives more details of his journey in 'MAN SAMAJAMANI " so read it. and who knows he might had visited Tabrej too!!

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9. TE TOU IKVEESSARAG MAHEN JAGIYA PAMSEY 
JE RAKHIYA CHHEY MIR PARBAT MINJAAR. PART # 528 
What is this Mir Parbat? 

The real words is 'MERU PARVAT" it is a name of the mountain! no body knows where it is located? some says it is located some where in Himalaya mountain! some says it is located in middle of earth!.
My thinking is it is located in Himalaya near Kailash! which is very hard to climb but many pilgrimage still goes over there, they thinks ( not me) the ways to reach heaven (Amarapuri ) starts from there.

Below is the thread in which you can find more information about Meru Parvat!
http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... 89becd58e1

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10. SHATRU TE JE SATGUR NE JANEY NAHEN PART # 556 
It means rest of the world or those Ismailis which are not from subcontinent khojas are enemies and are maha pappis (sinners). 

If you interpreted as you wrote above then that is fine with me but here I can say Syed Imam shah also insisted us to know the fundamental principals and belief of the words "Pir" and "Shah", if you do not knows and consider your self as an Ismailis then yes you are hidden enemies of our sect which I am telling you and your buddy Tret for a long time.

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11. Allah said to Prophet that girl ( Bibi Fatima ) is in your house and her husband ( Mowla Ali ) is in my house. Is this not a case of SAMDHI RISHTA.!! 
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY 
AM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAAR 
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JAL SHANAHU 
AAPAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHVAAR. PART # 108 

JIYAREY AY FARJAND MOTTA THAISEY 
TIYAREY KARSUN TE DUNIYA NU AACHAAR 
AMEY TAMEY DONU EEK CHHAIYEN ( PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THIS LINE ) 
TENU KAIN NA KARSHO VICHAAR PART # 109 

I need meaning of word Samdhi Rista"
એજી, આલ અલીજી ની તે કહીએ,
નબી મુહંમદ પીર મુસલ્લે છે ત્યાંએ ;
ઇસરે આલ થી જે ભૂલશે,
તે તો જાયશે દોજખ માંહે।
In above words Syed Imam Shah clearly tell the Nabi Muhammad is a pir and if someone who forget this they will go in hell, means they will face many difficulties.

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12. In part # 586, after mentioning Imam Islam Shah jumped to mention Imam Shah Garib Mirza, by neglecting Imam Muhammad bin Islam Shah, Imam Mustansirbillah and Imam Abdus Salam. Our these Imams passed away in the life time of Syed Imam Shah. Not only these Imams but also. Imam Garib Mirza, Imam Abuzar Ali, Imam Murad Mirza and Imam Zulfiqar Ali passed away in his life time. WHY HE NEGLECTED OUR THESE IMAMS.? OBVIOUSLY FATHER AND SON LEFT ISMAILI TARIQA. 
AAL E ALI TE SIRI ISLAM SHAH KAHEYIEN 
TE SAMI SHAHGARIB MIRJA NU AVTAAR. PART # 586 
Even HERITAGE has not properly translated this part at its site! 

You are right in above saying, I think it might be mistake in typing becuase there were not printing press at Syed Imam Shah's time peoples used to memorized the ginans by hearts and they recite and teaches others, I think in this transit the real word has been missed if any one have "Muman Chetamani" in Khojki then Admin ,he/she must have to check above verses and let us know.

Mazhar,
So far! you have asked many questions but I find only one ( last ) question which are reliable but all others questions are asked by you in jealousy and with the aims to put ginans down! but sorry to say you have failed, matter of fact you have already failed in past by Admin many times and in this thread you failed by KMaherali and by myself. I spent many hours to answers all the questions in return I only wants you to know and study the Ismaili fundamental principals, rituals, culture and beliefs if you not like to read ginans.

[kmaherali]

I, know who you point about this!!? but Yes, I, as a Muslim first and Ismaili second I believe in Quran but not the incomplete, altered and edited or omitted Quran! if you have complete quran which H. Ali was about to introduced then let me know, I will start to read it every day!

In the Golden Jubilee July 2007 occasion, MHI publicly bowed and kissed the Qur'an. So that is an indication that he has accepted it in its present condition. So we can't keep saying that we should not read and study it. We have a department set up at the IIS for Qur'anic Studies and they use the existing Qur'an.

[zznoor]

And reincarnation in a lower life for those who worship evil


5:60

Yusuf Ali: Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah? those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"

It is very amusing that to prove their points even Muslims are toying with Quran to suite their thinking. Sometime they insist on literal meaning, sometimes they say it is allegorical, they quote Ayas without contex, sometime they take part of two Ayas and include it in their prayes or use truncated Ayas and half Hadithing. When suits their purpose use Hadith and when does not then say it's forgery.

Dear ADMIN, did you read Y. Ali's comment underneath same Aya? May be you do not have it. They do not publish it anymore. I have 3 volume addition.BTW PDF is also on net, search it "Yusuf Ali translation with commentary"

Here is his comment on 5:60

770 For apes see 2:65. For men possessed by devils, and the devils being sent into swine, see Matt. 8:28-32. Or perhaps both apes and swine are allegorical: those who falsified Allah's scriptures became lawless like apes, and those who succumbed to filth, gluttony, or gross living became like swine.

Read carefully Yusuf Ali writes in his comment " those who falsified Allah's scriptures became lawless like apes,"

Sometime it is good idea to read translation with comments or Tafseer from both Shia and Sunni scholars. Quran like any other religious books should not be taken lightly.

Salaam

[zznoor]

I, know who you point about this!!? but Yes, I, as a Muslim first and Ismaili second I believe in Quran but not the incomplete, altered and edited or omitted Quran! if you have complete quran which H. Ali was about to introduced then let me know, I will start to read it every day!

In the Golden Jubilee July 2007 occasion, MHI publicly bowed and kissed the Qur'an. So that is an indication that he has accepted it in its present condition. So we can't keep saying that we should not read and study it. We have a department set up at the IIS for Qur'anic Studies and they use the existing Qur'an.

In addition person who said Quran is incomplete, altered, omitted or he possesses 10 additional chapters has passed away without giving single evidence as promised.
Hz Ali RA had more than 5 years as Khalif to correct Quran but he did not do it. All historical accounts say he had a manuscript with Quran as it was revealed chronologically with tafseer from Prophet. Prophet was instructed to insert passages in present format by Gibreal.

[kmaherali]

In addition person who said Quran is incomplete, altered, omitted or he possesses 10 additional chapters has passed away without giving single evidence as promised.
Hz Ali RA had more than 5 years as Khalif to correct Quran but he did not do it. All historical accounts say he had a manuscript with Quran as it was revealed chronologically with tafseer from Prophet. Prophet was instructed to insert passages in present format by Gibreal.

Given the nature of the compilation process it is not unreasonable to assume that the Qur'an is incomplete or tampered with, infact our pirs have said that in the past. However for the sake of unity of the Umma, the present Imam has accepted the present version. It is in the same spirit that HA accepted the first 3 caliphs although he did not consider them as legitimate.

[kmaherali]

Sometime it is good idea to read translation with comments or Tafseer from both Shia and Sunni scholars. Quran like any other religious books should not be taken lightly.

Salaam

Ismailis don't need to read other tafsirs if there are Farmans of the Imam indicating that reincarnation in non-human forms is possible. We have even anecdotal eveidence to that effect.

[agakhani]

I already wrote that neither Islam nor Quran denies about reincarnation but Mullah, Molwis, interpreters, translators and some participants from this forums are denying reincarnation therefore they have always wrongly interpreted those 23 ayas before and even now which clearly says lives after the death in quran!!
I asked my Sunny turned "no religion person" and shows him those 23 ayas he told me that many Mullah, Molwis and interpreters knows about reincarnation but if they change their interpretation which they already have made then Muslims will not accept it, might be a big revolt broke up!! and they might kill them so in fear of their lives they do not dare to change

' ETO AAGU SE CHALA AATA HAI! TO CHALNE DO. but time has come now.

The good news is! Recently many Muslim scholars has started to research more about reincarnation in Islam! and they have started to publish books on their research. That days are not too far when science will also prove the reincarnation! so wait little more to become "Mullahs molwis ZZNoor and for those who has doubt in reincarnations us sab ka muh kala"

Only one Quranic ayats here:-

"And you were dead, and He brought you back to life. And He shall cause you to die, and shall bring you back to life, and in the end shall gather you unto Himself." (2:28). As per my interpretation of above Quranic verses, Allah has used the words "you were dead" can only mean that (they, we) have lived before becoming dead! and Allah will give another life.

Is this not the solid proof of reincarnation quoted in Quran?


FYI:- Not only Ismailis but there are many Sufi streams has also accepted reincarnation in their religious! so does "Druez" and "Gohat" sects too.!

Ismailis* also taking chhantas for the sins they have committed in their previous lives , this chhanta called as 'CHAR JUG NO CHHANTO"

* There are some Ismailis who are also not believing in life after the death too.

[agakhani]

ZZNoor,
You have not learned lesson yet! Sorry that is your bad luck but I am telling you this again and again that, even other reader do not agree with me about quran that is fine with me every one has its own tninking but in my thinking is totally different.
After many resaerch reading many articles , books and askkng questions to many Molwis, Mullas and Mowlanas I figured out that quran is incomplete and 10 paras are still missing in real quran and those paras in possession of Ismaili imams. Wants proof? There are manies.
But...
Since I voluntarily withdrawn my self in not debating about quran to give respect to quran do not drag me back in this debate again. I have many proof which can proove you that quran is incomplete !Because quran is out dated, edited, eltered, omitted many ayas and it is not it was first reveled on prophet. Period.
If you need proof then email me otherwise stop barking. Because... I respect whatever qurarn we have , as a Muslim I accept it so does our imams! Even though our imams knows it is not complete because they have 10 paras and they are wating for right time to come then they will introduce to every one but right now to Muslim ummah quiet they have accepted whatever quran we have at this time.
if you still keep barking like a dog then I have no choice but have to enter in argues, which many readers didn't liked in past and they emailed me not to argue because they felt hurting theirs beliefs.

[nuseri]

To zznoor;YA ali madad:
today which community is living like lawless n uploading their act like devils on earth.
Who is aping (like apes) the entity of phyiscal act rather than be inspired to his level of intellect.
The ayat is true reflection of shariatis today.Ape's who are law unto themselves.
THE AYAT debated is in front of our eyes in reality to b seen, observe n conclude, everything froma simple few words to ayats in holy book have been falsified by tafseer givers.
aur ho gayee bundero ki fauj.

SAB IDHAR KA IDHAR HI HAI.

What a pity ,pathetic and un blessed these shariatis are living,it looks like that some curse has befallen upon them.(astagarufalllah,toba toba toba).

Is the serpent still moving in the garden of ALI.
Has our responsible gardener has done away with it by now ?

[zznoor]

Given the nature of the compilation process it is not unreasonable to assume that the Qur'an is incomplete or tampered with, infact our pirs have said that in the past. However for the sake of unity of the Umma, the present Imam has accepted the present version. It is in the same spirit that HA accepted the first 3 caliphs although he did not consider them as legitimate.

What else he can do in this days of Internet and instant communication.
You make it sound like he is practicing Taqiya.

Whoever made Quran being defective made only statements. Never produced evidence. Murids are suppose to belive Murshid, right or wrong

You still happen to have doubts.

[zznoor]

Quran 2:28

How can you reject faith in Allah, seeing that you were without life and He gave you life, then He will cause you to die,and will again bring you to life, and again to Him will you return.


seeing that you were without life and He gave you life,
This is reference to human featus, there is no life at conception Alaah breaths life and after that he is born
then He will cause you to die,
This is reference to deth of human being in this Duniya
and will again bring you to life,
referring to resurrection
and again to Him will you return.
Refers to return to Allah and face judgement and then consigned to Junnah or Hahannum

[zznoor]

Ismailis* also taking chhantas for the sins they have committed in their previous lives , this chhanta called as 'CHAR JUG NO CHHANTO"

There is no such thing like taking Chhanta in Islam

Only Allah can forgive, that is Islam

[Admin]

1) Ismailism is Islam so there is such things as Chanta in Islam. So your info is wrong. Please educate yourself on diversity in Islam.

2) If you study our history, prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has also given Chanta.

3) Only Allah can forgive sins, all Ismailis agree with this. But Ismailis do not restrict the power of Allah to allow those he choose to do this on his behalf. Some sects of Islam like the Sunnis would restrict Allah's capacity to delegate to whom he choose, be it the rightful Imams or the Prophets or their authorised representative.

You have your freedom to be part of any sects that you choose, it does not bother to me if you are Hanafi, Hanbhali (don't tell me these are schools of thoughts and not sects) or any of the 72 sects referred by the Prophet, you are master of your destiny and of your decision for which you will be accountable directly to Allah, not to any of your Mulas.

[agakhani]

ZZNoor,
I have seen in my childhood that a sunny HAZI was sprinkliny water of the well name ZAMZAM all over his places not only this but he was also giving that water to drink every one saying drink this holy water which I have brought the holy well “ZAMZAM"! During my HAJJ! And many Sunnies biradans were drinking it like[/b] we ismailis drinks Niyas!
I know zamzam well has some historical evidences and it has a holy water! but why the heck he was sprinkling water (by a sunny) surrounding his areas? If that was not Chhaantas then what was that?
Do you know (admin wrote also) prophet Mohammad used to give chhantas? so First read history and then after you come for any comments!, we have criticized you many times about your little or no knowledge in Islamic history, so my advice is to you! read Islamic history first and then after come for any comments!
And off course clean hour private parts with sands and stones because it is quoted in quran! rather than doing Wadu because wadu is a partial cleaning and in wadu does not says how to clean your p. Parts but Quran does and you have termendous trust iny Quran and therefore you left this sect and accepted gumrahi sect whoch has been lost right after the death of nabi.

[mazhar]

Dear Kmaherali, though you did not addressed my first set of questions on Momin Chetamani but responded to 2nd set of questions only. My answer to your 12 points answers is as follow; Aghakhani this is also reply for your posting on Momin Chetamani.

Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2015

mazhar wrote:


Though Syed Imam Shah was not a pir, but still he called himself a Pir.
1. DHAN DHAN TEY SATGUR IMAM SHAH NEY KAHIYEN
JEENEY SATGUREY GINAN KANTHIO VICHAAR. PART # 628.


SATGUREY JEEVU DHETHUN TEYVUN KAHIYUN
AAPNEY SAHU NEY JAAVUN CHHEY SAHEB NEY DUWAAR PAT # 630.



Actually he did not call himself Pir, he called himself Satgur which means 'the True Guide'. Infact in the same verse he refers to Pir Sadardeen and Pir Hasan Kabirdeen as Pirs and he calls himself satgur in contrast. The True Guide need not be a Pir.

mazhar wrote:


2. Those who do not believe in Quran and Shariat, Please check these parts.
ILM ALLAH JI BHEJIA
FARD FARMAWIYA FURQAN MAHEN. PART # 8 (FURQAN MEANS QURAN )

FARD FURQANEY THI UPPANA
TEY TOU PARWARIYAPROTHAMI MAHEN
SHARIAT TARIQAT HAQIQAT
TENI MAILUM CHHEY MARIFAT MAHEN. PART # 9

TEY TOU KHOJJIA QURAN MINJAAR. part # 162

I think everyone here believes in the Qur'an. It is a matter of interpretation which causes the difference. Sharia means laws or rules which can change according to times.

According to the Farman of MSMS, Pir Sadardeen has provided the tafsir of the Qur'an.

mazhar wrote:


3.Tabriz is used 2 times.Syed Imam Shah mentioned Pir Shams was from Tabriz, though he was from subzwar. PART 204,

PART 205.

He might have been born in Subzwar but it is also possible that he went to Tabrez before travelling to the 24 countries.

mazhar wrote:


4.Daswand was started in subcontinent and not in Arabia at time of Prophet Muhammad.
TEENEY BODHINEY KHOJA KAIYA
ANEY AAPIO TEY DHARAM AACHAR
TIYAN THI SATPANTH CHALIO
DASWAND TANU VIAWAAR. PART # 199.

The verse can be interpreted as the new phase of religion started by Pir Satgur Nur and it's foundation was Dasond. It does not mean Dasond started at that time. According to verses from Anant Akhado Dasond has existed since creation. It did not start in Arabia.

mazhar wrote:


5. About Amrapuri means heaven, Syed Imam Shah mentions the SUNNI idea of heaven.
AMRAPURI MA NENA GHAR CHUNAVIYA
TEMA JAR TAR HERA MANEK PADARTH SAAR
SOWAN EENTEY TENA GHAR CHUNAVIYA
TEMA NAKHIYA CHHEY AMBER KASTURINA GGAR PART # 522.

HURAUN PACHAAS (50) TEY GHAR MA RAKHSUN
TEENU EEK TEY THAISEY BHARTAAR
PAACH SAU (500) PUTAR TEY JEEV NA THAISEY
TEY TOU FARMANIRAMSEY TE GHAR MINJAAR. PART # 523.

PANCH SAU MALLAIK TENA HUZUR MA RAHESEY
TE TOU FARMANI RAHESEY EY GHAR MINJAAR
TE TOU ASU JHALINEY UBHA RAHESEY
ANEY SAHIL KARAWEY SARAG MINJAAR. PART # 524 ( JUST IMAGINE 50 HURS, 500 SONS AND NO DAUGHRES )

These are all symbollic expressions of heavenly experience which cannot be described in ordinary language. Our language is not equipped to communicate spiritual experiences, hence the use of symbollic language.

mazhar wrote:


6. IN PART 139, who was sardar , for whom Mowla Ali said, obey Him so that you can get salvation.

He is Nabi Muhammad mentioned in verse 140. The Nabi was the Pir of the time who showed the path.

mazhar wrote:


7. Approx. in 70 parts he wrote to pay daswand, dhaan, and aahaar, but only few times on iman. Though he was not pir but insisted to pay 40% to him.
CHALIO AMARU AALJO
PIR MUREED NU EY CHHEY VAHVAAR. PART # 142, PART 360

It is not 40% but 1/40 (2.5%). 10 + 2.5 = 12.5. The 2.5% is the share of the Pir. Sayyed Imam Shah might have been authorised to collect it on the behalf of the Pir, just as Mukhi is at present.

mazhar wrote:


8. Pir Shams visited 24 cities and not 24 countries.
TE TOU PHARIYA MULK CHOVEES MAHEN. PART # 205.

Mulak means countries.

mazhar wrote:


9. TE TOU IKVEESSARAG MAHEN JAGIYA PAMSEY
JE RAKHIYA CHHEY MIR PARBAT MINJAAR. PART # 528
What is this Mir Parbat?

It is a mountain called Mayer wherein all the 21 heavens are kept. Perhaps this is symbollic of a heavenly mountain wherein all the heavenly treasures are hidden from the undeserving.

mazhar wrote:


10. SHATRU TE JE SATGUR NE JANEY NAHEN PART # 556
It means rest of the world or those Ismailis which are not from subcontinent khojas are enemies and are maha pappis (sinners).

The verse means: "Those who do not recognise the True Guide are the enemies".

mazhar wrote:


11. Allah said to Prophet that girl ( Bibi Fatima ) is in your house and her husband ( Mowla Ali ) is in my house.

Is this not a case of SAMDHI RISHTA.!!
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEY JAL SHANAHU
AAPAN DONU NU AY CHHEY VAHVAAR. PART # 108

What is Samdhi Rishta? Please clarify.

mazhar wrote:


JIYAREY AY FARJAND MOTTA THAISEY
TIYAREY KARSUN TE DUNIYA NU AACHAAR
AMEY TAMEY DONU EEK CHHAIYEN ( PLEASE PAY ATTENTION TO THIS LINE )
TENU KAIN NA KARSHO VICHAAR PART # 109

Nabi and Ali are from one noor, so what is the problem?

mazhar wrote:


12. In part # 586, after mentioning Imam Islam Shah jumped to mention Imam Shah Garib Mirza, by neglecting Imam Muhammad bin Islam Shah, Imam Mustansirbillah and Imam Abdus Salam. Our these Imams passed away in the life time of Syed Imam Shah. Not only these Imams but also. Imam Garib Mirza, Imam Abuzar Ali, Imam Murad Mirza and Imam
Zulfiqar Ali passed away in his life time. WHY HE NEGLECTED OUR THESE IMAMS.? OBVIOUSLY FATHER AND SON LEFT ISMAILI

TARIQA.
AAL E ALI TE SIRI ISLAM SHAH KAHEYIEN
TE SAMI SHAHGARIB MIRJA NU AVTAAR. PART # 586
Even HERITAGE has not properly translated this part at its site!

LOVERS OF GINANIC LITERATURE, PLEASE RESEARCH AND REPLY ALL ABOVE MENTIONED POINTS.

He neglected the Imams because probably he composed these verses during the time of Imam Gharib Mirza. He did not mention the Imams after him.It does not imply that he left the Tariqah.
ANSWERS:
1. In Ismaili Khoja Ginanic literature NAR means IMAM and GUR or SATGUR means PIR Please read parts #s 628 and 630 there is no mention of Pir Sadruddin or Pir Hasan Kabiruddin. Check part # 629, where he says," GINAN KANTHIYA GUR IMAM SHAHA."
2. In parts 8,9,162, he has mentioned Furqan means Quran and Shariyat. Though you believe in Quran and Shariyat, but I deliberately indicated for those participants and readers of this site who do not believe in these two. This is proof for them. Basic thing is acceptance of Quran according to preamble.
3. I mentiond the book" Gulzar e Shams Tabrizi" from which Syed Imam Shah had taken the full account of Pir Shams including miracles. You did not responded about the book, but said may be from Sabzwar he went to Tabriz and then to 24 countries. You use the words MAY BE, means you are not sure. How come Imam Shah did not knew where his great great grand father was born!
4. In part 199 the mention of Daswand is related to story of 4 KHOJAS and not from very beginning. You wrote," the verse can be interpreted as new phase of religion started by Pir Satgur Nur." You used the words CAN BE, means not sure.
Sir, according to Islamic books and Hadiths there is no mention of Prophet Muhammad of collecting tith, neither there is any proof of Mowla Ali for collecting tith or 10% in His tenure.
5. In parts 522,523,524, Syed Imam Shah has described the AMRAPURI means heaven in terms of Sunni traditions. You wrote," these are symbollic expressions."
My question was that a momin in heaven will get 50 Huru, 500 sons but no daughters. This is completely sunni tradition.
6. In part 139, I asked the question who was sardar, whom Mowla Ali indicated." TAMEY JAAOU TEY PASEY SARDAR.". you wrote that is Prophet Muhammad. I accepted.
7.Regarding Parts 142, 360, Syed Imam Shah mentions," CHALIO AMARO AALJO" you should pay my1/40. I have objection on the word "AMARO" MEANS MINE. If 10% belong to Nar and 2.5% to Satgur than what about 2,5% of zakat! As he was not pir so can not demand 2.5% for himself. Think about the word AMARO. In my mind was 1/40th, but I mistakenly typed otherwisein my previous post.
8. In part 205, the word mulk is used. In many subcontinent languages the word mulk means country. For example; in Urdu," yee mera mulk hai." This is my country.
In Sindhi," hee muhnjo mulk aahey." Same meaning. In Pujabi," eeh saddha mulk ee." So Pir Shams visited 24 main cities, and not countries.
9. In part 528, about MIR PARBAT, you interpreted that it is a mountain called Mayer where in all 21 heavens are kept. Any reference? I can not buy this concept.
Is there any mention of 21 paradises in any muslim book.
10. With ref. to shatru, you wrote,"Those who do not recognise satgur are the enemies." Is this God's justice, if 7 billion human beings who do not believe in satgur
are enemies( and go into hell.)
11. You asked me question about Sambdhi. In many sub continent languages the word sambdhi is common, like in Hindhi, Gujrati, Urdu , Sindhi. Sambdhi means
a kinsman or a relative. Now with ref. to part 108, 109. Allah said to Prophet that daughter ( Bibi Fatima ) is in your house and son( Mowla Ali as husband ) is in my house !
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEYJAL SHANHU
AAPAN DONU NUAY CHHEYVAHVAAR. PART 108.
You wrote Nabi and Ali are from same noor so what is the problem? But in part 109," AMEY TAMEY DONU EEK CHHAEIN." Means Allah says to Prophet that you and I, (both ) are one. Please read the Parts 108 and 109 carefully regarding marraige relationship.
12,You answered," He neglected Imams probably he composed these verses during time of Imam Gharib Mirza." Again you use the word probably means you are not sure. My question is even he composed at time of Imam Gharib Mirza still he missed Imam Muhammad bin Islam Shah, Imam Mustansibillah and Imam Abdus Salam and later on should have included Imam Abuzar Ali, Imam Murad Mirza and Imam Zulfiqar Ali because he was still alive.

[kmaherali]

What else he can do in this days of Internet and instant communication.
You make it sound like he is practicing Taqiya..

You are very perceptive and you seem to know a lot about the Imam. Yes indeed it is all Taqiya. Imam is the source of revelations so he does not need to seek knowledge from the Qur'an, although of course he will say that all his Farmans and speeches are the tafsir of the qur'an even though he hardly refers to the Qur'an directly.

Whoever made Quran being defective made only statements. Never produced evidence. Murids are suppose to belive Murshid, right or wrong

You still happen to have doubts.

Your intellect should be the proof of whether the Qur'an could be tampered or not. Just consider the circumstances under which the Quran was compiled and you will get your answer.There was a post made in this regard in another thread which I will repost here...

Followings are the views and personal findings of Prof. W. Ivanow, which he expressed as a specilal foot note in the book,’ True Meaning of Religion’ by Shihabuddin Shah and translated by him.

“As is well known, the question of the origin of the version of the Coran, as it is at present, is a difficult matter, full of rather doubtful points. It appears as if there were not very much interest towards it immediately after the death of prophet Muhammad. Abu Bakar entrusted the work of collecting the Curan to Zayed b. Thabit. Later on we find that what was collected was in private possession of Hafsa, the daughter of Umer. At the time of Uthman there already were several versions in existence. One, by Abdullah b. Masud in Kufa, another by Abu Musa Abdullah al-Ashari in Basra; the third by Miqdad b. Amr in Hims(Syria); the fourth, by Ubay b. Kab in Damascus. This difference in the text of the sacred book caused great inconvenience in practical life, and under pressure from the side of local governors Uthman appointed a sort of ' commission', using the modern term, for the revision of the text, consisting of same Zayed b. Thabit ( mentioned above), Abdullah b. Zubayr, Said b. al-As, Abdur- Rehman b. al-Harith and others. What were the function of every one amongst them and what they really have done is not clear. Ultimately the present version came into existence, and the different versions, as usuasally narrated by even most orthodox historians were collected and burnt. Quite probably, of course, some isolated copies escaped the destruction; some of such instances known. We have no information whether there existed a special version preserved among the Alids and their supporters. The usual tradition, preserved by Shiites about Curan can not be verified at present, but it seems highly probable if we consider the attitude of the circles in which the official version is prepared. The author quite naturally accepts the tradition which is regarded as absolutely true by all Shiites author. “

I hope you will at least find the above explanation reasonable if not agreeable. There are other scholarly articles on this subject at:

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... c&start=30

So I have no doubt that the Qur'an was tampered and is incomplete. I have no doubt that the first 3 caliphs were not legitimate. However based on the advice and actions of our Imams I accept the Qur'an in its present state and the first 3 caliphs. Therefore based upon the guidance of the present Imam, I study parts of the Qur'an which have a direct bearing upon the understanding of my faith and to be able to demonstrate the Quranic basis of my faith and values to other Muslims.

About 50-60 years ago Ismailis did not need to know anything about the Qur'an but things have changed now as we come into contact with other Muslims.

[kmaherali]

Quran 2:28

How can you reject faith in Allah, seeing that you were without life and He gave you life, then He will cause you to die,and will again bring you to life, and again to Him will you return.


seeing that you were without life and He gave you life,
This is reference to human featus, there is no life at conception Alaah breaths life and after that he is born
then He will cause you to die,
This is reference to deth of human being in this Duniya
and will again bring you to life,
referring to resurrection
and again to Him will you return.
Refers to return to Allah and face judgement and then consigned to Junnah or Hahannum

This is fine and reasonable and I respect your interpretation. However you should also respect other interpretations even though you disgaree! So the resurrection according to you will take place in the grave?

[agakhani]

You asked me question about Sambdhi. In many sub continent languages the word sambdhi is common, like in Hindhi, Gujrati, Urdu , Sindhi. Sambdhi means
a kinsman or a relative.

That means you spelled it wrong!
The real word should be "સંબંધી "संबंधी, سنبندھی means connected, related. m. relative, kinsman. in English it should be write "SANBANDHI" not Sambdhi which makes me and KBhai little carious!!

[zznoor]

To zznoor;

What a pity ,pathetic and un blessed these shariatis are living,it looks like that some curse has befallen upon them.(astagarufalllah,toba toba toba).

Stop worrying about Shariti. All are not miserable. Many are doing well and living decent peaceful life.

You take care of yourself

[tret]

..Many are doing well and living decent peaceful life...

"doing well", "peaceful life" these are relative terms. One maybe very well off financially, but very poor and miserable spiritually. Now, I am certainly not judging anyone who's spiritually well off and who's not.

MHI always mentions to improve quality of lives of Jama'at and humanity in general around the world.

Now, this quality of life on the one aspect means financially and socially; however, more importantly MHI refers to spiritual life of the Jama'at [and humanity].

[kmaherali]

In Ismaili Khoja Ginanic literature NAR means IMAM and GUR or SATGUR means PIR Please read parts #s 628 and 630 there is no mention of Pir Sadruddin or Pir Hasan Kabiruddin. Check part # 629, where he says," GINAN KANTHIYA GUR IMAM SHAHA."

Verse 628 states:
Eji Dhan dhan ti Pir Sadardin satgur brahma
Ane dhan dhan Pir Hassan Kabirdin aena parivar
Dhan dhan te satgur Imamshah ne kahiay
Jeno satgure ginan kanthi yoon vichar
Cheto....


628. It is auspicious to have had Pir Sadardin and his son, Pir Hasan
Kabirdin and now his son Imam Shah to preach to us in musical form.

So Pir Sadardeen and Pir Hasan Kabirdeen have been mentioned as Pirs and Imam Shah calls himself Satgur!

1. I mentiond the book" Gulzar e Shams Tabrizi" from which Syed Imam Shah had taken the full account of Pir Shams including miracles. You did not responded about the book, but said may be from Sabzwar he went to Tabriz and then to 24 countries. You use the words MAY BE, means you are not sure. How come Imam Shah did not knew where his great great grand father was born!

Of course he knew where his great great grand father was born. He just chose to call him by the title of Tabriz. So not a big deal. It has no significance beyond being a title.

4. In part 199 the mention of Daswand is related to story of 4 KHOJAS and not from very beginning. You wrote," the verse can be interpreted as new phase of religion started by Pir Satgur Nur." You used the words CAN BE, means not sure.
Sir, according to Islamic books and Hadiths there is no mention of Prophet Muhammad of collecting tith, neither there is any proof of Mowla Ali for collecting tith or 10% in His tenure.

There is no mention of the 4 khojas in verse 199. Ginans are subject to interpretation. By using the words ‘can be’ I am implying that it is one of the possible interpretations.
Dasond has been a tradition since the beginning according to the Ginans and Farmans. Why do you need a proof about that from other sources?

5. In parts 522,523,524, Syed Imam Shah has described the AMRAPURI means heaven in terms of Sunni traditions. You wrote," these are symbollic expressions."
My question was that a momin in heaven will get 50 Huru, 500 sons but no daughters. This is completely sunni tradition.

Sometimes when the word ‘Man’ is used, it implies humanity and hence woman is also meant. For example we may say: ‘Concept of Man’, this would also imply woman. Hence son can also imply daughter. Remember Ginans are poetic and hence can have meaning that are not apparent.

7.Regarding Parts 142, 360, Syed Imam Shah mentions," CHALIO AMARO AALJO" you should pay my1/40. I have objection on the word "AMARO" MEANS MINE. If 10% belong to Nar and 2.5% to Satgur than what about 2,5% of zakat! As he was not pir so can not demand 2.5% for himself. Think about the word AMARO. In my mind was 1/40th, but I mistakenly typed otherwisein my previous post.

In Ismailism zakat is not a Tariqa practice and hence one may not observe it. It is a Sharia practice hence you can observe it if you want but it is not compulsory.
AMARO implies plural. It does not mean one person only. In this context AMARO means chain of Piratan or the institution of Piratan. Here Sayyed Imam Shah is saying on behalf of the institution of Piratan.

8. In part 205, the word mulk is used. In many subcontinent languages the word mulk means country. For example; in Urdu," yee mera mulk hai." This is my country.
In Sindhi," hee muhnjo mulk aahey." Same meaning. In Pujabi," eeh saddha mulk ee." So Pir Shams visited 24 main cities, and not countries.

If mulk means countries then why are you saying cities?

9. In part 528, about MIR PARBAT, you interpreted that it is a mountain called Mayer where in all 21 heavens are kept. Any reference? I can not buy this concept.
Is there any mention of 21 paradises in any muslim book.

That was my opinion. It is a reasonable assumption. If you cannot buy it, it does not mean that the concept is wrong. Again you do not need references to prove it. You either accept it or don’t.

10. With ref. to shatru, you wrote,"Those who do not recognise satgur are the enemies." Is this God's justice, if 7 billion human beings who do not believe in satgur are enemies( and go into hell.)

The notion of a true guide is not restricted to our tariqah only. As I mentioned in another thread there can be other Mursheed Kameels as well for other tariqahs or faiths.

11. You asked me question about Sambdhi. In many sub continent languages the word sambdhi is common, like in Hindhi, Gujrati, Urdu , Sindhi. Sambdhi means a kinsman or a relative. Now with ref. to part 108, 109. Allah said to Prophet that daughter ( Bibi Fatima ) is in your house and son( Mowla Ali as husband ) is in my house !
TUM GHAR FARJAND NAAR CHHEY
AM GHAR FARJAND CHHEY BHARTAR
TAMEY MUHAMMAD AMEYJAL SHANHU
AAPAN DONU NUAY CHHEYVAHVAAR. PART 108.
You wrote Nabi and Ali are from same noor so what is the problem? But in part 109," AMEY TAMEY DONU EEK CHHAEIN." Means Allah says to Prophet that you and I, (both ) are one. Please read the Parts 108 and 109 carefully regarding marraige relationship.

In that case Nabi was one with Allah. He was Fanna so there is no problem.

12,You answered," He neglected Imams probably he composed these verses during time of Imam Gharib Mirza." Again you use the word probably means you are not sure. My question is even he composed at time of Imam Gharib Mirza still he missed Imam Muhammad bin Islam Shah, Imam Mustansibillah and Imam Abdus Salam and later on should have included Imam Abuzar Ali, Imam Murad Mirza and Imam Zulfiqar Ali because he was still alive.

It was just his choice not to mention all of them. That does not make him wrong or does not imply he left the Tariqah!

[tret]

Dear Mazhar,

4.Daswand was started in subcontinent and not in Arabia at time of Prophet Muhammad.

Dasoond [Dah-yakk] or one-tenth is actually mentioned in the Qur'an. Not the same words, but the same concept. Nasir-i-Khusraw in his Wajh-i-din explains it beautifully with reference to the verse of Qur'an [Wa uqeem-u-salata wa atauzakata....]. Most muslims of ahl-e-sunnah and isna'ashria emphasizes only on salat and zakat, but fail to recognize the third element in this verse which is "Mal-i-Wajibaat" [aka Dasoon, or Dah-yakk]. There's spiritual philosophy behind this, i.e. the principal of detachment and renouncement of worldly materials and at the same time participating for good cause of helping others in need. So Zakat and Dasoon are two separate concepts which are both mentioned in the Qur'an.

[agakhani]

Aghakhani this is also reply for your posting on Momin Chetamani.

What reply? you are still believing the same thing when you first asked 12 questions on March 2nd Admin, Kbhai and my self answered you as per our understanding ! but you have not accepted it! just keep asking same questions again and again! you have not accepted a single answer means you already has made up your mind not to accept defeat; but brother you are defeated!, you are lose your ground! ask your shelf it will tell the truth! to me it shows that you have asked these questions ( I should tell them an allegations and accusations instead of question) in revenge, jealousy ! and to put ginans and pirs down. period. but you miserably failed in your aims, this is as clear as this!

[mazhar]

Aghakhani,

Quote:
You asked me question about Sambdhi. In many sub continent languages the word sambdhi is common, like in Hindhi, Gujrati, Urdu , Sindhi. Sambdhi means
a kinsman or a relative.


That means you spelled it wrong!
The real word should be " " ; means connected, related. m. relative, kinsman. in English it should be write "SANBANDHI" not Sambdhi

Ak, gracias senor, pero necesito la explicacion de parte # 108 y 109 de poesia Momin Chetamani.
Gracias otra vez.