quran as mentioned in preamble

[nuseri]

To all scholars:Ya Ali Madad.

debate on sufism n now pir v/s hujjat has taken over 10 pages.
It looks clash of marginal ignorance.

I presume Shamsb have collated info more than one source and put his view may be indifferently.Is OK.
even Pir n prophets are not immune d from mistakes.

I hear that qasidas the most spiritual one's came before period of ginans.

They SEE ALI as 'Pir e tariqat; in many of them and i assume raise the level of imam to much greater to haqq ba haqiqat (GOD).

so definition and word of Pir is there attached to tariqat status of ALI.

heavy toxic doctrine will scare away any non Ismaili out of fear of tension in reading it only.
all his aspiration n desire will dilute in max one week period.
I did not bother to step in ,I knew all data of low sense will float for a month.
To scholars of IIS,Please remember before you off your load bulky posts
that is an open forum n not private gents cloak room.

'Samajdaro ko ishara kafi hai'

[agakhani]

To whom it may concern:

Ismaili religion is a simple religion! it is very easy to understand if you study other religions first and compare Ismaili religion with them for that you have to study other religions literature first but if you can not come out from the well or from the shadows of certain central Asian dais and live like a frog in a well then you can not properly understand the a easy and true Ismaili sect.

Nobody scare out to nobody in this forum!, they are just putting the facts an true Ismaili facts, principle and beliefs. whether accept it or not its totally rely on individuals but I do not like if some one claims himself as an Ismaili and do not believe in Piratan or ginanic literature. for them the doors are open as MSM mentioned in his many farmans "Amara ghar na darwaaja khulla chhe"!!

[mazhar]

To Aghakhani,
With ref. to your post," just only one Farman? That is it? but I have atleast
a dozen Farmansof 46th,47th, 48th Imams------"
Ak, first learn to obey the the Farman of the present Imam, being as a follower of HI, it is our first duty to obey Farman of the Imam of time.
The Farman of present Imam supersedes Farman of the previous Imams. on the same topic / subject.
1964 Farman is the latest on this topic.

[mazhar]

Kmaherali posted,"Pir Aga Abul Hasan Shah passed away as an infant and Piratan remained with him for 3 months."
Can any one explain what was achieved by an infant pir of 3 months in da'wat and religious matters.
Was that an honourary piratan?

[agakhani]

Ak, first learn to obey the the Farman of the present Imam, being as a follower of HI, it is our first duty to obey Farman of the Imam of time.

Did current Hazar Imam ever overruled or told us not to follows his ancestor Imams those farman? in which they claimed 'ALI IS THE ALLAH?!! I bet he didn't so, those farmans are still valid and 100% true and every one should follow those farmans too.
The only thing you need to do is open your eyes little wide, actually Ismaili sect is not for every one and specially who has doubts on its principals, sorry this sect is not for them but Ismailis sect is for those peoples who have faith in their Imam, who believes Imamat and Piratan concept ( not the Paris conference or the general interviews) and for them MHI is every thing!!

[tret]

MSMS does not mention the Universal Soul as a creative agent in his Memoirs. MHI does not mention Universal Soul in his Farmans

I really wish you didn't say that.
I am not sure if this is from your ignorance or lack of information. But just as yet another prove, here is what MSMS says.

It is a Muslim’s highest duty, by intensive prayer and spiritual abandonment of self to the great universal Soul of the Universe, to get the supreme blessing of direct communion with Absolute Reality.

further details here:

nanowisdoms.org/nwblog/1520/

[tret]

I said that the person of the Ahl al-Bayt who is appointed by the Imam as the Pir is the Imam Mustawda. However when the Imam retains the function of Piratan for himself then there is no Imam Mustawda. Hence the present Imam who is Imam Mustaqar functions as the Imam and the Pir. There is no Imam Mustawda.

Imam Musatawda only applies to the Pir who is appointed by the Imam.

ShamsB doesn't agree with you. Please see his reply.

And this is according to who, please? Any Farmaan of the Imam? Any teachings of Dai or Pir? Even abuali doesn't imply this. Do you have any reference, or you want us to take your words yet again?

BTW, do you understand what the term "Mustawda" [مستودع] means? Please do some research and see if your definition actually makes sense.
Mustawda means "Na'ib-e-Imam". i.e. in a company you have president and you have vice-president. In the absence of the president, the vice-president takes the command and is responsible for the office of the company temporarily until the president is back to the office.

[agakhani]

I told you almost more than two months ago that you are just wasting your time and knowledge for this onesided person name tret, believe me "Is tel me koi tel nahi hai!"
"BEHRA AAGE GANA"
"ANDHA,AAGE NACHNA"
"BHES AAGE BHAGWAT"
These all idioms apply to Tret.
Woh kabhi sudharne wala nahi.

Some people blind in this word and they will remain blind in "Akharat too" and he is one of them.

[zznoor]

I have one question

Where in Quran or Hadith it is recorded that Hz Talib, (Prophet's Uncle) appointed Prophet SAW Pir and Hz Ali as Imam by Nass?

Pir is not Arabic word as per my understanding.

[zznoor]

Tret,

This verses on incidence of meraj will help you if you try to understand it.

101) Eji Nabi Mohammed sat brahma kahiae
Tena farzand bibi Fatima saar
Tare Nabi Mohammed chinta upani
Aeno kon te thashe bharthar Cheto.....

101. Nabi Muhammed is the right Brahma and his daughter is Bibi Fatima.
This worried the Prophet - who would marry his daughter?

102) Eji Nabi Mohammed ne shahe maeraj te raviaa
Tyan dithi te kudrat aapar
Tare farman aaviyo Ali janab thi
Tame chinta ma karo lagaar Cheto....

102. When Prophet was called on (experienced) Meraj, he saw many wonderful
things and Hazrat Ali made a Farman to him not to worry.

103) Eji Tam ghar farzand bibi Fatima
Teno am pase che bharthar
Te kul tamari mahain avtariya
Te Abu Talib ne gher avtar Cheto....

103. I have chosen a husband for your daughter, Bibi Fatima, who has come
to you through Abu Talib's lineage.

104) Eji Te roop amaroon jaanjo
Te Mowla Murtaza Ali avtar
Ali allah aek kari jaanjo
Te mahain shak ma aanjo lagaar Cheto....

104. Know My form, for though I am manifest in Murtaza Ali, I am the
Creator and do not doubt that.

105) Eji Jyare aevo farman aaviyo hazar thi
Tare Nabi Mohammed ne aaviyo aetbaar
Tyan dithi kudrat kadar tani
Boliya Nabi Mohammed teni var Cheto.....

105. When the Prophet heard this at Meraj, he gained faith and he saw
awe-inspiring things.

106) Eji Tare araj kidhi Ali janab ma
Tame sambaro parvardigar
Ali allah aek farmaviya
Teno te koon karshe aetbaar Cheto....

106. He requested Hazrat Ali saying, "How will I convince my fellow human
beings that you are God Manifest?"

107) Eji Tare dargah mathi farman aaviyo
Tame sambaro Mohammed mora piyar
Tam ghar farzand bibi Fatima
Teno Ali che bharthar Cheto.....

107. The reply from the Heaven to the Prophet was: "O My beloved Prophet,
marry your daughter to Hazrat Ali."

108) Eji Tam ghar farzand nar che
Am ghar farzand the bharthar
Tame Mohammed ame jallshanho
Aapan donoon no ay che vahevar Cheto.....

108. You have a daughter and I have the husband for her. You are Muhammed
and I am "Jal Shahnur"(Creator). Together we will carry on the mission.

109) Eji Jyare ae farzand mota thashe
Tyare karshoon te duniaanoon aachar
Ame tame donoon aek chiae
Tenoon koie na karsho vichar Cheto......

109. When your daughter will grow older I will create the circumstance for
her to marry Ali for indeed you are
from My Noor, so don't worry about the future.

110) Eji Bibi Fatima voravajo
Te Hazrat Ali gher nar
Tene tame tyan aaljo
Dejo dej mahain khawja char Cheto.....

110. Marry Bibi Fatima to Hazrat Ali in the dowry give her four servants.

111) Eji Te khawja raheshe hazoor main
Te upare bibi Fatima dharshe piyar
Teni dua ae tito vijshe
Tena thashe baho parivar Cheto....

111. These servants will stay with her and will respect and love Bibi
Fatima and she will ove them. These
servants will be regular in their prayers and their families will be happy.

112) Eji Teto manshe Mowla Ali ne
Seva karshe dhari baho pujar
Teno allah te ali kahiae
Je koie aanshe itbaar Cheto....

112. They will also believe in Hazrat Ali and will serve Him with love and
will acknowledge Ali as Allah.

113) Eji Ali allah je koie manshe
Teno pir te Nabi Mohammed avtar
Je nabi jini aal mahain thi upajshe
Te pir musalle saar Cheto....

113. Those who will acknowledge Ali as Allah, they are indeed equivalent
to Pir and Nabi, and one can call them as from Nabi.

114) Eji Aal alijini sahi kari manshe
Je thashe te khawja no parwar
Sache sidake te chalshe
Ali Mohammed ni aal upar rakhshe piyar Cheto....

114. Momins, believe Ali's progeny to be true and those who will do this
will get the benefit as those servants did. They will also be guided to
the right path if they will love Ali and Muhammed.

115) Eji Tena iamn ame rakhshoon
Jyare vartse kaljug kalikar
Tene potana kari rakhshoon
Aagal mahadan mahain utarsoon paar Cheto.....

115. We will believe with true Iman in Ali, especially in this present
material world (Kaljoog); we will also
consider Him as our own so that He will be our cause for salvation. (This
is what the servants will pledge.)

116) Eji Tare Nabi Mohammed boiya
Tame sambaro parvardigaar
Tamare farman ne ame chalsoon
Tame mehar karo sirjan haar Cheto.....

116. Nabi then replied, "O My Lord, I will obey Your Farman, please be
Merciful on me."

117) Eji Te Ali Mohammed aek che
Tena nam na joaa joaa vichar
Ali kirtar vishanu kahiae
Nabi Mohammed brahma jino avtar Cheto....

117. Momins, Ali and Muhammed are one. It is like different attributes of
God as one who would compare Ali to
Vishnu and Muhammed to Brahma.

This is unbelievable. Do Khoja Ismaili still believe in this?

Prophet was appointed by Allah as messenger. Not Hz Ali

[Admin]

I think somewhere inside you there is a feeling that whatever the Khojas believe, they may be closer to the Truth than you ever came in your past and that explains why you are still here in this Forum at this stage of your search for the divine truth.

You have a need to disapprove whatever the majority will disapprove but you know that the majority is not always right.

You can not deny that there should be a reason why Allah has brought you so close to those thinking...

[fayaz006]

In the case of Islam majority of the Muslim civilization has always been wrong. The majority disinherited Fatima Zhara, the majority waged war against Aly, the majority killed Husayn and Hassan. The majority has severly persecuted minorities and other Muslim sects. The majority has never been right.

[tret]

wow.... This is unbelievable!

so, in other words you are saying that 124000 prophets and 49 imams and the entire effort of Imamate was wrong and they all got it all wrong, until, Khoja converts from hindu kaish came into picture. Well, thank you for showing us the right way, then. and somehow you believe that other ismaili communities are jalouse of khojas??? I mean do you really listen to yourself? wow, you guys started to slowly reveal your true color.

I accept whatever you say, if it is the teaching of Qur'an, Prophet, Imams or their Hujjats. and whatever opposes your convenience, you call it outdated, flash, etc... but whatever suites it, then you say our faith is based on thousand years old.

[nuseri]

To Mazhar:Ya Ali Madad.

'Tumari dume thedi to thedi.'.

Firstly understand the word Allah it's composition,With all prophets ALI give a name out of them,Why do he uses them as third person has good reasons.
the word is Ali+lah ( get that into your heart before you die.)
when Imam 47th spoke as first person,he clearly said the ALI thi Allah.
the name/word(not the entity) Allah came from ALI/HIM WHO IS A HAYUL QAYUM entity till akharat.he futher affirm to whom should I bow Down?.

In ANY a important farman made whICH carries annulment of earlier farmans like sharaiti practice is widely circulated by councils n alwaez across board like wild fire.o 'wordS of annulment was said by MHI at all NOTHING IS CONTRADICTORY here ,one is face value tafseer n one is tawhil(truth)

if Ali+lah=Allah.
then MHI SAID Ali is from Allah, nothing wrong when you match the words.( as word ali forms itself from word not entity Allah.
it mean that word(not entity) is/is from word Allah.
IF MHI would have meant Entity that mean he is contradicting what he 110 years back.IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.

[nuseri]

To Agakhani:Ya Ali Madad.

Your posts are unbecoming of you in recent times.Many post here will future scholars to reply confidently to sharitis ( presently two active now)
Why are you singling out tret for your grudges.There IS MORE ismaili material written on the word n entity Pir is arabic n persian language than in gujarati.( you are a PhD in Gujrati, while Shamsb is in Islamic history where syllabus of ismaili religion n faith may be less in content for reading.you two are great haqiqati stalwarts here looking at my own poor secular education level.I should feel jealous of you two).

we all can know n learn n also teach at times with each other

Your statements of dai being frogs in a well reflect your shallow self.
WellSsalvat is recited when syedna nasir khusraw name is taken in JK there.
Do not pitch one against another.
remember Salam farsi was born not into Ahle Bayt, yet he is part of it.

In Fatimid doctrines mainly followed by musteAli Ismailis that is Bohras.
their 'dai' as per their belief is in lieu of Imam ( who has disappeared till he come back and the dai communicates with ALI till then in baatin).
The title of his is 'Syedna'./hIS HOLINESS.

If I am not wrong Mhi referred to Nasir khusrwa as Syedna in public forum and said He was Foremost among Ismaili Thinkers.

he was a secular learned man before He started preaching.

Many splits happened in Shia history by persons in Ahle bayt or close to Ahle bayt.( aastin ke saap).

One new non ismaili member looks like real pain in the xxx.Admin need to monitor that

[tret]

If I am not wrong Mhi referred to Nasir khusrwa as Syedna in public forum and said He was Foremost among Ismaili Thinkers.

You are right. Here's what MHI said at the opening of Ismaili Centre in Dushanbi Tajikistan.

“Nasir Khusraw was among the premier thinkers whose contributions will be celebrated in the space that we initiate today.”

[tret]

I have one question

Where in Quran or Hadith it is recorded that Hz Talib, (Prophet's Uncle) appointed Prophet SAW Pir and Hz Ali as Imam by Nass?

Pir is not Arabic word as per my understanding.

Unless you accept the notion of Imamate, it would be hard to grasp any of these.

Pir is a Persian term which entered into Ismaili tariqa, like many other terms that entered from Arabic. The other term which is equivalent -- some may disagree with me here -- is the Hujjat [which means proof], that has been used pre-khoja. Hujjat [حجت] is used in the Qur'an.

[fayaz006]

wow.... This is unbelievable!

so, in other words you are saying that 124000 prophets and 49 imams and the entire effort of Imamate was wrong and they all got it all wrong, until, Khoja converts from hindu kaish came into picture. Well, thank you for showing us the right way, then. and somehow you believe that other ismaili communities are jalouse of khojas??? I mean do you really listen to yourself? wow, you guys started to slowly reveal your true color.

I accept whatever you say, if it is the teaching of Qur'an, Prophet, Imams or their Hujjats. and whatever opposes your convenience, you call it outdated, flash, etc... but whatever suites it, then you say our faith is based on thousand years old.

Hello Tret I don't know who this comment is addressed to; however if it's addressed to me that I must clarify. What I meant by majority is Sunni Islamic Ideology exclusively. I did not mean to say that khoja tradition is the only correct interpretation. In my view the Internal teachings of all Ismaili philosophers are valid however they need to be reconciled. Ismaili posted a Ginan which is as much valid as Qadi Numan's work. My argument though would be that in the esoteric level Numan's work was written to be read by everyone however Ginan's were meant only for Ismailis. Which is why I am generally opposed to posting them. Hope this helps.

[tret]

Hello Tret I don't know who this comment is addressed to; however if it's addressed to me that I must clarify. What I meant by majority is Sunni Islamic Ideology exclusively. I did not mean to say that khoja tradition is the only correct interpretation. In my view the Internal teachings of all Ismaili philosophers are valid however they need to be reconciled. Ismaili posted a Ginan which is as much valid as Qadi Numan's work. My argument though would be that in the esoteric level Numan's work was written to be read by everyone however Ginan's were meant only for Ismailis. Which is why I am generally opposed to posting them. Hope this helps.

Fayaz,

My comment was in response to admin's comment, who has similar ideology as few select member on this forum. A sense of exclusiveness, tendency to be superior than other communities. That's what's sensed in the reply anyways. This is the ideology of extremest and fundamentalist who accept only those who must adhere to their way of thinking. i.e. isis or taliban that history has been witnessing. Where as MHI teaches us of tolerance and pluralism. I believe there is truth in the Ginans. This is because it was the teachings of our very own Dais and Hujjats. Sure, they have different context and settings and need to be reconciled with the rest of ismaili tariqa, but i think it's wrong to say if you don't adhere to my way of thinking then you are excluded.

Those few select members claiming Imam is Allah. This is their own belief and no body has anything to do with that. However, we must bear one thing in mind, that we are in a public space whatever we put down, surely reflect our own values and beliefs, but also to a degree represents our faith and tariqa. Saying Imam is Allah is either right or wrong. If it's wrong, then one must not say it. If it's right, then one must still not say it. We ismaili believe in the batin [even batn-i-batin] of elements of faith. There are layers of truth, until one peel each layer and get to the heart of the truth. These truths and realities are guarded and protected, similar to delicate fruits that are protected with strong shell. i.e. look at our brain which is the most delicate and yet important organ of our body is protected with strong skull to guard it. If we expose these delicate organs or fruits without any protection or shell, they will soon be ruined and go bad. Therefore, the truth must at all times be preserved and concealed and only the truthful and confidence can know them; others are not. So, those who claim Imam is Allah, they for sure doesn't know the truth or else they wouldn't reveal it so simply in an open forum for public.

[kmaherali]

The Farman of present Imam supersedes Farman of the previous Imams. on the same topic / subject.
1964 Farman is the latest on this topic.

The 1964 Farman is not the latest in this topic. Remember I quoted two Farmans of 1966 made in Bombay in which MHI alluded to his status as the Imamin comparison to Allah. Also the Paris conference resolution stated that the Imam is the mazhar of Allah. Then on an occasion at the IIS with the scholars he said that the Imam is the mazhar-i-dhat-illahi.

[kmaherali]

Kmaherali posted,"Pir Aga Abul Hasan Shah passed away as an infant and Piratan remained with him for 3 months."
Can any one explain what was achieved by an infant pir of 3 months in da'wat and religious matters.
Was that an honourary piratan?

He performed his role of Piratan in every respect. Remember the role of Piratan is not only confined to the material world only. The Pir intercedes and prays for his murids who are alive and who are also in the spiritual domain after death.

Sometimes the presence of an elevated soul is enough to bring about changes in the world and the community without uttering a word.

Below is the description of baby Christ by Paramahansa Yogananda.

"We think of the baby Jesus as helpless in his crib, de­pendent on his mother's milk and care; yet within that tiny form was the Infinite Christ, the Light of the universe in which we are all dancing as motion-picture shadows. During one of our daylong Christmas meditations, when I prayed to see the baby Christ, the light of the spiritual eye in my forehead opened its rays, and I saw Jesus as an infant. He appeared in such beauty and power of God. All the forces of nature were playing in that baby-face. In the light of those eyes the universe trembled—waiting for the command of those eyes."

[kmaherali]

MSMS does not mention the Universal Soul as a creative agent in his Memoirs. MHI does not mention Universal Soul in his Farmans

I really wish you didn't say that.
I am not sure if this is from your ignorance or lack of information. But just as yet another prove, here is what MSMS says.

Please read carefully what I said. Remember we were discussing creation and it is in that context I made the statement. Mark the red-highlighted words.

It is a Muslim’s highest duty, by intensive prayer and spiritual abandonment of self to the great universal Soul of the Universe, to get the supreme blessing of direct communion with Absolute Reality.

further details here:

nanowisdoms.org/nwblog/1520/

[/quote]I have no problem with that statement. It is not however made in the context of creation. It is made in context of spiritual elevation/abasement. That is perfectly fine. I also said in my post that the creation itself is the Universal Soul. Please re-read what I said about soul/body.

In a statement made in his Memoirs MSMS mentions:

"The way to personal fulfilment, to individual reconciliation with the Universe that is about us, is comparatively easy for anyone who firmly and sincerely believes, as I do, that Divine Grace has given man in his own heart the possibilities of illumination and of union with Reality."

The Universe that the Imam mentions here is equivalent to Universal Soul that he mentions in the statement that you provided. The Universe is the form of the Universal Soul just as our bodies are the forms of our souls as per the Farman of the present Imam.

[kmaherali]

ShamsB doesn't agree with you. Please see his reply.

And this is according to who, please? Any Farmaan of the Imam? Any teachings of Dai or Pir? Even abuali doesn't imply this. Do you have any reference, or you want us to take your words yet again?.

I am not sure whether he still disagrees after my latest post. If he does then it is fine with me. We will agree to disagree. We cannot have an Imam Mustawda existing if the Imam Mustaqar is functioning as a Pir. There is no need of an entrusted Imam.

These are entirely my views based on my interpretation of what Abually has said. You may reject them if they do not make sense to you. It is fine with me.

BTW, do you understand what the term "Mustawda" [مستودع] means? Please do some research and see if your definition actually makes sense.
Mustawda means "Na'ib-e-Imam". i.e. in a company you have president and you have vice-president. In the absence of the president, the vice-president takes the command and is responsible for the office of the company temporarily until the president is back to the office.

Thanks for your insight. I have asked you a question 3 times and you have failed to answer. Let me try one more time. If the Imam Mustawda is not a Pir according to you, then please explain what is he based on the life of Hazarat Hasan?In other words in what sense is Hazarat Hasan Imam Mustawda?

[kmaherali]

Those few select members claiming Imam is Allah. This is their own belief and no body has anything to do with that. However, we must bear one thing in mind, that we are in a public space

Sure this is a public space, but based on the number of people who access it on a regular basis, it can be considered as a private space. It is like a corner store in the midst of millions of shops accessed by infinitely small number of people.

Try accessing any valuable information in this forum as a person who visits the forum regularly. See how difficult it can be. Lately you failed to even reference the Farmans I posted recently!

So how difficult will it be for someone new to the forum to access any useful information.

Hence for all intent and purposes, this is a batini forum and it is therefore fair to utilize the available technology to discuss our esoteric traditions and promote understanding.

[kmaherali]

but i think it's wrong to say if you don't adhere to my way of thinking then you are excluded..

You have made a very serious allegation. Please prove your point by giving example of a single post to that effect. According to my readings, I have not encountered any post which excludes anyone else. On the contrary we have been very tolerant to some of your unrespectful comments inspite of you not reading the posts carefully.

[agakhani]

WellSsalvat is recited when syedna nasir khusraw name is taken in JK there.

I don't know whether salwat recited in India and Pakistan when Dais Khushru's name is taken in JK !! but here in USA nope not at all because he was not an official pir! official pir or Sattadhari pir is that ; whom imam of the time appoints.
In my thinking salwat should be recited after the name of Imams and official appointed pirs, in that category Khushru, Imam Begum, Syed Imam Shah and many other pirs who were not appointed by any imams for that we should not recite salwat after their name. I have notices that after the name of pir Imam shah and Imam Begum lots of Jamati members recites salwat because they do not have knowledge that they were not an official pirs. Yeh to Aagu se chala aata hai. to chalne do.

[tret]

Remember I quoted two Farmans of 1966 made in Bombay in which MHI alluded to his status as the Imamin comparison to Allah. Also the Paris conference resolution stated that the Imam is the mazhar of Allah

Can you please repost the two farmaans of 1966?
How can you conclude from Paris conference resolution that "Mazhar of Allah" [locus of Manifestation of God] is Allah?
If Mazhar of Allah was indeed Allah, then why the use of Mazhar?

The Pir intercedes and prays for his murids who are alive and who are also in the spiritual domain after death.

Please elaborate. This is interesting.

Sometimes the presence of an elevated soul is enough to bring about changes in the world and the community without uttering a word.

So, in other words you are saying that status of Pir is also by nass and is heredity, same as Imam?

the story of Jesus is not relevant to Pirs. Jesus was one of the Prophets of Ulul-Azm [Natiq]. Pirs are appointed by Imam, they are not pre-distant to be Pir by birth. It's the sole prerogative of the Imam of the time who to appoint as His Hujjat and if to appoint HIS Hujjat.

Please read carefully what I said. Remember we were discussing creation and it is in that context I made the statement. Mark the red-highlighted words.

I read what you said, all right. From philosophical point of view, then please explain your understanding of creation? The metaphysical hierarchy, from Supreme God/The Transcendent form the sublime realm to this dense and physical realm... I'd like to know your framework of belief system to which school of thought do you subscribe? Please...

That is perfectly fine. I also said in my post that the creation itself is the Universal Soul. Please re-read what I said about soul/body.

So is Universal Soul the creation? That's it? What about the physical realm? What about cause and effect? What's the cause and what's the effect, in this context? Is The supreme God the cause of all things? These are some important questions you need to wrap your head around, if you want to contradict the doctrine of ismailies that elite theologians, Hujjats and Dais of ismialis crystallized, which are being research and studied not only within our own community but also world wide by other communities.

Is it not enough for you that the Imam referenced the term Universal Soul, where as you completely removed the term Universal Soul as an obsolete concept. Whether it's mentioned by the Imam as creation agent in this context or not was not what I wanted, but just the fact that the Imam mentioned it. It's for us to try and understand its concept and realities through Ta'lim of the Imams.

The Universe that the Imam mentions here is equivalent to Universal Soul that he mentions in the statement that you provided. The Universe is the form of the Universal Soul just as our bodies are the forms of our souls as per the Farman of the present Imam.

I entirely agree with your interpretation!

So, the Universal Soul creates individual soul.

I am not sure whether he still disagrees after my latest post. If he does then it is fine with me. We will agree to disagree. We cannot have an Imam Mustawda existing if the Imam Mustaqar is functioning as a Pir. There is no need of an entrusted Imam.

These are entirely my views based on my interpretation of what Abually has said. You may reject them if they do not make sense to you. It is fine with me.

You made a good point here <see the high lights>.

So, if we agree that in the presence of Imam Mustaqar --When Imam being the Pir, as our current MHI-- there's no need of Imam Mustawda, then tell me why do we need an entrusted Imam when the office of Pirship is delegated to a person other than the Imam of the time?? Imam of the time [Imam-e-Mustaqar] is still present and fully functioning and has the command of the office of the Imamate. That's the logical conclusion that in the presence of the Imam Mustaqar, there's no need for Imam-e-Mustawda.

Just to refresh your memory one more time, here's what shamsB says and I don't see reconciliation between what you say, what I say and what ShamsB says.

Hazar Imam is the 50th Imam Mustawda/Pir just as the Prophet was the First Imam Mustawda/Pir.

Having said all that, I think this should put this to rest.

http://ismaili.net/heritage/node/10407

The author makes a clear distinction about the role of Imam Mustawda, but yet regards it as a permanent office. I guess it can be still agreed upon, if by "Office of Imam mustawda" is referenced to office of Pirship [Hujjatship]; but, I it should be rather referenced as such, instaed of using the term "Mustawda", as you can wee from the explanation he gives about entrusting of the office of the Imamate temporarily.

You have made a very serious allegation. Please prove your point by giving example of a single post to that effect. According to my readings, I have not encountered any post which excludes anyone else. On the contrary we have been very tolerant to some of your unrespectful comments inspite of you not reading the posts carefully.

I really don't want to dig into months worth of posts; should you have followed closely the discussion of few select members <Don't wanna name names>, you'd notice it clearly, from an unbiased perspective.

Sure this is a public space, but based on the number of people who access it on a regular basis, it can be considered as a private space. It is like a corner store in the midst of millions of shops accessed by infinitely small number of people.

This is a risky assumption you are making. You assume that because it's hard to find information in this forum, therefore, for a non-regular visitor it would be impossible to find anything in this forum.

In today's age, the power of search engines are far out reaching and just for the heck of it, google search your user id [kmaherali] and see very first few hits. It's not impossible to find things on public spaces.

Regardless, these sensitive matters of faith must not be revealed anyways should someone truly understand it. Whether you are on public space or private space. As soon as you expose the sensitive elements out of its shell, it's go bad. so it's everyone's duty to protect the secret treasures of God. It's everyone's personal responsibility to find it, as MHI encourages us the free personal inquiry. One can not prove anything by shouting Ali is Allah. However, on the contrary it leaves an impression of an heretic. After all, these are personal beliefs and no one should have to do anything with it, as I said this multiple times over now.

[mazhar]

Dear kmaherali,
With ref. to your baby Christ by Paramahansa Yogananda, my question is
Did Swami Yogananda saw baby Christ in real time in crib. How he knew baby's face. Are you comparing Christianity and Ismailism as same? Still I can not buy your idea that a baby in crib can pray for souls. Christ become Prophet at age of 30 years.

[mazhar]

Dear Kmaherali,
In response to your post dated Feb19, 2015, you wrote," the 1964 Farman is not the latest in this topic. Remember I quoted 2 Farmans of 1966 made in Bombay in which MHI alluded to his status as the Imam in comparison to Allah." Sorry to write, according to you that every 2/4 years Imam keeps changing the Farman on a crucial topic, Is He double minded! You wrote," allude to His status as the Imam in comparison to Allah." Dear Km, comparison is always done in 2 or more than 2 things, so you are comparing Imam to ALLah. As 24/35 states, every particle in universe is mazhar of Allah. By the way 1966 Farman what you quoted was question and answer.

[agakhani]

I also read that well known book name "AN AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF A YOGI" written by Swami Yoganand, this books has been translated more than 2 dozen different languages and has sold thousands and thousands so far.


Have you read that book? if no then please read first and put your comments latter! by the way Baby in crib, reincarnation of Swami Yoganand's guru, Yoganand sees him in hotel after his death are possible and true. Matter of facts anyone can do that and many Himalayan yogis are doing even this modern time; You do not have be a yogi, Saint, sage or swami to achieve these kinds of miracles, any body can do that if you practice in meditation, those Ismailis specially from Indo-Pak have that weapon in Baitul Khayal "bol" but not all peoples are taking vantage of the power of bol except few. sorry I do not know about Ismailis from central Asia, they have baitul Khayal practice or not? the last time I heard that they do not have, please correct me if I am wrong.