quran as mentioned in preamble

[kmaherali]

But the author clearly spells it out.

Of course one must also be aware that what one mentions in a published/printed form can be different than what he actually thinks especially in matters of faith.

On the contrary, I find it not inline with the philosophy of creation from Ismaili perspective, as expounded by Tusi and Khusraw.

Please give specific references and quotes when you make such statements. It is not good enough to say that Tusi and Khusraw said this and this. Provide specific examples.

fist of all -- as I said before in some other threads -- Prophet is not same as Messanger.
Prophets [espicially in this context, Natiq] are the Prophets who have revelations from God and have shariat to people. Messengers don't have revelation or Shariat and act as Guide. that's the difference between 124,000 messengers and 6 natiqs. Prophet Mohammad being the final Natiq, meaning that there won't come any other Prophets who will have any revelation from God; however the Divine guidance --as we know-- is passed on to the Imams. According to Islam, Adam was the first Natiq.

Yes the prophet (nabi) is not the same the messenger (rasul). The rasuls are the lawgivers and are a subset of the prophets. All rasuls are also the prophets but all prophets are not rasuls. There were 124, OOO prophets and there were between 310 to 315 rasuls. If one googles 124, 000 prophets, these are some of the statements:
- Almost all scholars say there were 124,000 prophets sent by Allah.
- 313 were sent as messengers according to popular hadith beliefs.
I think you have got it incorrect. Please revise your knowledge.
There is no explicit mention of the 6 natiqs anywhere. It is a very subjective basis. The constitution mentions that the prophet was the final prophet and not the messenger.
MSMS has clearly stated in his Memoirs that Adam was not the first prophet. There were prophets before Adam as well.

What's the difficulty and inconsistency you are referring to? Pre-Adam prophecy? what else? As I said, according to Islam, Adam was the first prophet, therefore, there's no inconsistency and difficulty from Tusi and Khusraw point of view.

Again provide specific references to prove your point. One of the inconsistencies is with respect to pre-Adam Imams/Pirs. How does the model explain these? Adam was not the first prophet. I hope you are not implying that creation was 6000 years ago! Also how do you treat the 313 messengers? There were not only six.

What's permanent doctrine? On the contrary, the Constitution actually indeed reflects the essence of our faith, should you contemplate and reflect.

Please be specific. What is the essence of the faith in the constitution?

Abually was a staunch follower of the Ginans and he must have implied the verse of the Ginan:

This is again your assumption and speculation.

Just ponder over the bibliography he has provided in his book about the history of the Pirs. How many books on Ginans has he mentioned?

I will let someone like ismailignosis to comment on that.
I already explained the different role of Imam Mustawda [Trustee Imam] vs Hujjat.

You should be able to elaborate on your own statement. Do not depend on someone else to support you. All I am asking for is an example to clarify your point of view. Again I ask you based on your own explanation of the Imam Mustawda vs Hujjat, in what sense was Imam Hasan Imam Mustawda and in what sense was he a Pir-Hujjat?

So, yo completely removed Universal Soul from the equation? This is definitely not the metaphysical hierarchy according to Ismaili Dais and Pirs. Please do some more research on that. Universal Soul is the cause of the universe [matter] and all return of individual souls are to IT. You can not remove Universal soul from the picture.

The metaphysical hierarchy is not constant. It is subject to change according to the intellectual/philosophical outlook of the time. MSMS does not mention the Universal Soul as a creative agent in his Memoirs. MHI does not mention Universal Soul in his Farmans: “Allah creates when he wishes how He wishes…” The Ginans do not mention the Universal Soul.

According to the science of today there is no distinction between matter and spirit/soul. MHI has said that matter and spirit are one. In one of his Farman he said: “The soul is created and given a physical form.” We can extend the notion of the individual soul to Universal Soul as being the creation itself.
I find it odd when you say that all souls return to the Unversal Soul. Please elaborate.

If we strictly adhere to the constitution, are we to restrict our history to 1400 years? What about the continuity of the Imams even before Hazarat Ali? What about the Farman which states that our faith is based on thousands of years of history?
Surely we need a batini version within the Jamat to understand our history in its completeness.

Not at all. There's nothing in the constitution that contradicts the essence of our faith. The constitution is laid down by the Imam of the Time and it is considered as a Farmaan. No Farmaan of the Imam is contradictory to the essence of our faith. This, directly depends on one's faith and conviction to the Imam. As I said before, we need to understand the esoteric ta'wil of zahiri elements [not reject them all together].

OK in that case please explain, how does the constitution reflect the eternity of Imamat which is the essence of our faith? How does the constitution reflect the Farman of the Imam which states that our faith is based on thousands of years of history? Please be specific and do not use vague terms such as zahir and the batin. Be specific. What is the zahir and what is the batin?

So, tell me this: According to your understanding --from abualy-- Prophet is Pir and Mauwla Ali is Imam. Also we agree that Imam appoints Pir. So, tell me, where did Mauwla Ali appointed Prophet as Pir? On the contrary, Prophet Mohammad raised Mauwla Ali to be his successor.

MSMS mentions in his Farman which I quoted before, that Prophet Muhammad appointed Imam Hasan to be the Pir, so it is automatically implied that he was appointed by the Imam Hazarat Abu Talib as the Pir. (Ismailignosis has reference to it).
As I mentioned before the event of Ghadir was an ‘external’ event to declare Hazarat Ali as the Imam to the people. It was not an appointment within the Jamat. The revelation of Islam was meant for the mankind and it was not meant for the Jamat (although the Jamat benefited from the Message). The Jamat already had the line of Imamat and Piratan which has existed since creation.. Hence Hazarat Aly was not the first Imam, but the first manifest Imam. The majority of those who accepted Hazart Aly based on the event at Ghadir ended up with the wrong Imamat, because the majority did not understand the essence of Imamat which is Light upon Light since creation. They all thought that Imamat began from the Prophet.

This is what I am trying to explain, that Prophet as [last] Natiq, appointed his [Wasi / Legatee] successor. Mauwla Ali after lifetime of the Prophet, moved to the rank of Natiq and first Manifest Imam, for the cycle of last Natiq. And this chain of Imamate shall continue till Qaim-ul-Qiyamat. .

First of all from the batin nobody appoints the Imam. The Imamat is a self-appointed and self-perpetuating institution. In reality there is no interchange of roles. The lineage and function of the Imam is distinct from all other linages as per Tusi. The Hazarat Aly assumed the role of the wasi with respect to the society but not with respect to the Jamat. From the Jamat’s perspective Hazarat Aly was an Imam who was appointed by his father through nass.

First, it's not a comprise. Please re-read what I wrote to your reply. Ghadir-e-Khum [and Idd Ghadir] has always been significant in all Shia communities, especially Ismailis. Like I said, maybe it has not been emphasized in our khoja community before, but that doesn't change the fact.

The fact that it was not part of the Khoja tradition implies that the event of Ghadir was not regarded as the same as other Shia communities. Hence there was a difference which entailed taking a compromised approach. As I mentioned before, for the rest of the Shias HA was the first Imam whereas for Satpanth Ismailis he was not the first Imam hence no significance attached to Ghadir.

kmaherali - You are contradicting yourself, by saying this. On some other thread, you said that anyone who attain the status of fana, becomes 'as Imam'. And you gladly give the analogy of drop joins the ocean. And you say also 'murid becomes murshid' so according to you, there's no distinction between the status of someone and the Imam, should they attain fana. Now, you are saying we need to make a distinction between Prophet and the Imam not to compromise the status? I mean, can you clarify where do you really stand? As I said before, you dont need to make things up, as you go along, because you will never know when you will contradict yourself.

I am not contradicting anything. Status-wise a murid can be one with the Imam. However functionally there can only be one Imam at a time. Just be aware of the distinction between status and function. I have not made up anything. I have said it all along that there can be only one functional Imam but there can be many individuals who have attained the status of the Imam by virtue of being Fanna.

Again, this is not my opinion, this is the teachings of our Dais and Hujjats. And the knowledge and teachings of Hujjats are the knowledge and teachings of the Imam and Imams know the truth. This is the true doctrine of Ta'lim. Having said that, you are most welcome to adhere to any ideology that you wish. After all, there's no compulsion in faith.

MSMS is his Memoirs has indicated that there were more than 6 natiqs. The Ginans also don’t mention the idea of 6 natiqs.

Tell me, where is the contradiction of the notion of 6 Natiq with what the Imam says? .

The 6 Natiqs do not include the prophets of other lands beyond Arabia/Israel. That’s what I find not in line with the Imam’s message of universality and hence contradictory.

[tret]

But the author clearly spells it out.

Of course one must also be aware that what one mentions in a published/printed form can be different than what he actually thinks especially in matters of faith.

On the contrary, I find it not inline with the philosophy of creation from Ismaili perspective, as expounded by Tusi and Khusraw.

Please give specific references and quotes when you make such statements. It is not good enough to say that Tusi and Khusraw said this and this. Provide specific examples.

fist of all -- as I said before in some other threads -- Prophet is not same as Messanger.
Prophets [espicially in this context, Natiq] are the Prophets who have revelations from God and have shariat to people. Messengers don't have revelation or Shariat and act as Guide. that's the difference between 124,000 messengers and 6 natiqs. Prophet Mohammad being the final Natiq, meaning that there won't come any other Prophets who will have any revelation from God; however the Divine guidance --as we know-- is passed on to the Imams. According to Islam, Adam was the first Natiq.

Yes the prophet (nabi) is not the same the messenger (rasul). The rasuls are the lawgivers and are a subset of the prophets. All rasuls are also the prophets but all prophets are not rasuls. There were 124, OOO prophets and there were between 310 to 315 rasuls. If one googles 124, 000 prophets, these are some of the statements:
- Almost all scholars say there were 124,000 prophets sent by Allah.
- 313 were sent as messengers according to popular hadith beliefs.
I think you have got it incorrect. Please revise your knowledge.
There is no explicit mention of the 6 natiqs anywhere. It is a very subjective basis. The constitution mentions that the prophet was the final prophet and not the messenger.
MSMS has clearly stated in his Memoirs that Adam was not the first prophet. There were prophets before Adam as well.

What's the difficulty and inconsistency you are referring to? Pre-Adam prophecy? what else? As I said, according to Islam, Adam was the first prophet, therefore, there's no inconsistency and difficulty from Tusi and Khusraw point of view.

Again provide specific references to prove your point. One of the inconsistencies is with respect to pre-Adam Imams/Pirs. How does the model explain these? Adam was not the first prophet. I hope you are not implying that creation was 6000 years ago! Also how do you treat the 313 messengers? There were not only six.

What's permanent doctrine? On the contrary, the Constitution actually indeed reflects the essence of our faith, should you contemplate and reflect.

Please be specific. What is the essence of the faith in the constitution?

Abually was a staunch follower of the Ginans and he must have implied the verse of the Ginan:

This is again your assumption and speculation.

Just ponder over the bibliography he has provided in his book about the history of the Pirs. How many books on Ginans has he mentioned?

I will let someone like ismailignosis to comment on that.
I already explained the different role of Imam Mustawda [Trustee Imam] vs Hujjat.

You should be able to elaborate on your own statement. Do not depend on someone else to support you. All I am asking for is an example to clarify your point of view. Again I ask you based on your own explanation of the Imam Mustawda vs Hujjat, in what sense was Imam Hasan Imam Mustawda and in what sense was he a Pir-Hujjat?

So, yo completely removed Universal Soul from the equation? This is definitely not the metaphysical hierarchy according to Ismaili Dais and Pirs. Please do some more research on that. Universal Soul is the cause of the universe [matter] and all return of individual souls are to IT. You can not remove Universal soul from the picture.

The metaphysical hierarchy is not constant. It is subject to change according to the intellectual/philosophical outlook of the time. MSMS does not mention the Universal Soul as a creative agent in his Memoirs. MHI does not mention Universal Soul in his Farmans: “Allah creates when he wishes how He wishes…” The Ginans do not mention the Universal Soul.

According to the science of today there is no distinction between matter and spirit/soul. MHI has said that matter and spirit are one. In one of his Farman he said: “The soul is created and given a physical form.” We can extend the notion of the individual soul to Universal Soul as being the creation itself.
I find it odd when you say that all souls return to the Unversal Soul. Please elaborate.

If we strictly adhere to the constitution, are we to restrict our history to 1400 years? What about the continuity of the Imams even before Hazarat Ali? What about the Farman which states that our faith is based on thousands of years of history?
Surely we need a batini version within the Jamat to understand our history in its completeness.

Not at all. There's nothing in the constitution that contradicts the essence of our faith. The constitution is laid down by the Imam of the Time and it is considered as a Farmaan. No Farmaan of the Imam is contradictory to the essence of our faith. This, directly depends on one's faith and conviction to the Imam. As I said before, we need to understand the esoteric ta'wil of zahiri elements [not reject them all together].

OK in that case please explain, how does the constitution reflect the eternity of Imamat which is the essence of our faith? How does the constitution reflect the Farman of the Imam which states that our faith is based on thousands of years of history? Please be specific and do not use vague terms such as zahir and the batin. Be specific. What is the zahir and what is the batin?

So, tell me this: According to your understanding --from abualy-- Prophet is Pir and Mauwla Ali is Imam. Also we agree that Imam appoints Pir. So, tell me, where did Mauwla Ali appointed Prophet as Pir? On the contrary, Prophet Mohammad raised Mauwla Ali to be his successor.

MSMS mentions in his Farman which I quoted before, that Prophet Muhammad appointed Imam Hasan to be the Pir, so it is automatically implied that he was appointed by the Imam Hazarat Abu Talib as the Pir. (Ismailignosis has reference to it).
As I mentioned before the event of Ghadir was an ‘external’ event to declare Hazarat Ali as the Imam to the people. It was not an appointment within the Jamat. The revelation of Islam was meant for the mankind and it was not meant for the Jamat (although the Jamat benefited from the Message). The Jamat already had the line of Imamat and Piratan which has existed since creation.. Hence Hazarat Aly was not the first Imam, but the first manifest Imam. The majority of those who accepted Hazart Aly based on the event at Ghadir ended up with the wrong Imamat, because the majority did not understand the essence of Imamat which is Light upon Light since creation. They all thought that Imamat began from the Prophet.

This is what I am trying to explain, that Prophet as [last] Natiq, appointed his [Wasi / Legatee] successor. Mauwla Ali after lifetime of the Prophet, moved to the rank of Natiq and first Manifest Imam, for the cycle of last Natiq. And this chain of Imamate shall continue till Qaim-ul-Qiyamat. .

First of all from the batin nobody appoints the Imam. The Imamat is a self-appointed and self-perpetuating institution. In reality there is no interchange of roles. The lineage and function of the Imam is distinct from all other linages as per Tusi. The Hazarat Aly assumed the role of the wasi with respect to the society but not with respect to the Jamat. From the Jamat’s perspective Hazarat Aly was an Imam who was appointed by his father through nass.

First, it's not a comprise. Please re-read what I wrote to your reply. Ghadir-e-Khum [and Idd Ghadir] has always been significant in all Shia communities, especially Ismailis. Like I said, maybe it has not been emphasized in our khoja community before, but that doesn't change the fact.

The fact that it was not part of the Khoja tradition implies that the event of Ghadir was not regarded as the same as other Shia communities. Hence there was a difference which entailed taking a compromised approach. As I mentioned before, for the rest of the Shias HA was the first Imam whereas for Satpanth Ismailis he was not the first Imam hence no significance attached to Ghadir.

kmaherali - You are contradicting yourself, by saying this. On some other thread, you said that anyone who attain the status of fana, becomes 'as Imam'. And you gladly give the analogy of drop joins the ocean. And you say also 'murid becomes murshid' so according to you, there's no distinction between the status of someone and the Imam, should they attain fana. Now, you are saying we need to make a distinction between Prophet and the Imam not to compromise the status? I mean, can you clarify where do you really stand? As I said before, you dont need to make things up, as you go along, because you will never know when you will contradict yourself.

I am not contradicting anything. Status-wise a murid can be one with the Imam. However functionally there can only be one Imam at a time. Just be aware of the distinction between status and function. I have not made up anything. I have said it all along that there can be only one functional Imam but there can be many individuals who have attained the status of the Imam by virtue of being Fanna.

Again, this is not my opinion, this is the teachings of our Dais and Hujjats. And the knowledge and teachings of Hujjats are the knowledge and teachings of the Imam and Imams know the truth. This is the true doctrine of Ta'lim. Having said that, you are most welcome to adhere to any ideology that you wish. After all, there's no compulsion in faith.

MSMS is his Memoirs has indicated that there were more than 6 natiqs. The Ginans also don’t mention the idea of 6 natiqs.

Tell me, where is the contradiction of the notion of 6 Natiq with what the Imam says? .

The 6 Natiqs do not include the prophets of other lands beyond Arabia/Israel. That’s what I find not in line with the Imam’s message of universality and hence contradictory.

That's why there is tybbi and Nizari ismailis.
That's why you don't adhere to the teachings of Imams, Hujjats of Fatimid.

[Admin]

Yes we are Nizari Ismailis, we adhere to the teachings of the present Imam. Mustalian adhere still today of what was the teaching of the Fatimid period, for example the law as defined by Qadi Numan but we follow today the Ismaili Constitution.

[tret]

... but we follow today the Ismaili Constitution.

mr kmaherali doesn't agree with you on this. You two need to work this out together.

[mazhar]

Agha khani,
In one of my previous post, I explained to you the rule of Mudhaf and Mudhafun illehi according to Arabic grammer. Ask your Arabic scholar friend, what is the meaning of kitabullah, waliullah, rahmatullah, hujjatullah, it is a long list. Kitabullah means book of Allah, it won't mean The book- The Allah. It does not imply that book itself is Allah.
So is the case with other such terminologies, and it applies to words Aliullah also. I have quoted quite few times 1964 Farman of MHI made at Karachi in which He explained the meaning of Aliullah, He said, " ALLIULLAH MEANS ALI IS FROM ALLAH." Now it is up to you, or Mr.Shams B, or any one else, believe the Farman or reject it. I have hard copy of the said Farman. I have been listening the phrase. The Ali - The Allah for long time, also this phrase is mentioned by some participant on this Heritage site long before you. Take another example, say Qalamu aghakhani, it means pen of aghakhani, obviously pen it self is not aghakhani. Play of words is different story. This reply is for Mr. Shams B also.

[mazhar]

Friends, I have been reading the discussions on Hujjat, Pir and Imam Mustawda with keen interest by elite scholars. Can any one explain,
" How the word Imam mustawda induced by Ismaili Dais in Fatimid period in connection to Hazrat Hassan, and the reason behind it because the word pir is not available in Arabic language."

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
The word Allah contain ALI by default n other part is nothing,so ali allah is relational belief and only ALI is absolute belief to move forward in for 'ruhani roshni' and have sighting(didar) of so called Allah n communicate two way basis with his noor.( noorani didar)
so all 2000 plus name are signature of ALI as his final brand name of Allah appearing in Quran.
In any agreement there few sign on every page in same way signature of ALI is there in in almost all pages of Quran.
Allah is ALI+ nothing.

It is the word Ali come form word Allah n also vice versa.
and the word Allah come from one n one entity ALI.

Did MHI clarify it the 'words' only or THE 'entity.'

If you are juggling with that statement,It was a clever way to compromise on words.
First a fool has to break the word that what exactly it mean.
if his saying are in parable,How can be 100% sure that his name would be without parable?

What is truth of water is that it has combination of two parts of hydrogen n oxygen.It discovery came million years after water existed.
in same the the truth of the word n name Allah has come now after 1400 years.
If every creation is hiding it truth till known,so does the creator.for that all souls have to slog for many million life cycles on earth.
ISMAILIS ARE THE MOST BLESSED ones.

TOD DO SHARIAT KI ZANJEER TO DIKHEGI MARFAT.

breakaway from the chains of shariat to see marifat.

I did the most simple thing in my life.I just broke the word".So here I am
I feel rewarded from ALI with his grace of his noor upon me n also for all haqiqatis in this forum

There is an ayat that everything that evolves belong to Allah.So does the findings of his name n reality behind creations

Science n Faith are aligned and not contradictory which is baffling Mullahs n Qazi's n still living denial mode.

[kmaherali]

... but we follow today the Ismaili Constitution.

mr kmaherali doesn't agree with you on this. You two need to work this out together.

Let me clarify...
I accept the constitution in its 'zaheri' aspect of providing the basis of articulating our faith to others. However I find it inadequate to understand our faith in it's totality.

I would like to quote a Farman which I feel is pertinent to the spirit of this discussion.

".....Islam is a faith of peace and brotherhood.If we are to interpret and practice Islam in those terms,we,as one of the many Tariqahs in Islam,must do everything possible to bring Muslims together,to explain to them the importance of peace and brotherhood and it is very rare that two human beings are made identical,indeed they are never identical.

Therefore,we are born with differences and we must learn to live with our differences and instead of looking upon them as failings and weaknesses,we must learn to teach that differences is strength because there is no monopoly of wisdom,but there can be a totality of brotherhood and that is what we should be seeking of others and within our Jamat."

.....MHI Farman
.....Karimabad,Karachi
.....March 21,1989(Navroz)

[kmaherali]

Friends, I have been reading the discussions on Hujjat, Pir and Imam Mustawda with keen interest by elite scholars. Can any one explain,
" How the word Imam mustawda induced by Ismaili Dais in Fatimid period in connection to Hazrat Hassan, and the reason behind it because the word pir is not available in Arabic language."

It seems there is a difference of opinion on this subject. Abually considered Imam Mustawda as equal to the Pir. However there is a different opinion expressed here by tret and ismailignosis that they are two different concepts. I am trying to understand the difference myself.

[kmaherali]

I accept the constitution in its 'zaheri' aspect of providing the basis of articulating our faith to others. However I find it inadequate to understand our faith in it's totality.

To clarify further....
Here we are referring to the preamble to the constitution which states our faith in a nutshell as articulated to others. There is no issue with the rest of the constitution.

[agakhani]

I am trying to understand the difference myself.

That is good try to understand differences between different peoples and diversity is always good but I would not accept any differences if it change the fundamental principal of Ismaili sect and belief. i.e. The noor in Imams and pirs are same and Pirs should be from Ahal -e-bayt family. MHI also mentioned in his many farmans that changes will be made in future but the Ismaili principals will never change.

[ismaili103]

So, tell me this: According to your understanding --from abualy-- Prophet is Pir and Mauwla Ali is Imam. Also we agree that Imam appoints Pir. So, tell me, where did Mauwla Ali appointed Prophet as Pir? On the contrary, Prophet Mohammad raised Mauwla Ali to be his successor.

Tret,

This verses on incidence of meraj will help you if you try to understand it.

101) Eji Nabi Mohammed sat brahma kahiae
Tena farzand bibi Fatima saar
Tare Nabi Mohammed chinta upani
Aeno kon te thashe bharthar Cheto.....

101. Nabi Muhammed is the right Brahma and his daughter is Bibi Fatima.
This worried the Prophet - who would marry his daughter?

102) Eji Nabi Mohammed ne shahe maeraj te raviaa
Tyan dithi te kudrat aapar
Tare farman aaviyo Ali janab thi
Tame chinta ma karo lagaar Cheto....

102. When Prophet was called on (experienced) Meraj, he saw many wonderful
things and Hazrat Ali made a Farman to him not to worry.

103) Eji Tam ghar farzand bibi Fatima
Teno am pase che bharthar
Te kul tamari mahain avtariya
Te Abu Talib ne gher avtar Cheto....

103. I have chosen a husband for your daughter, Bibi Fatima, who has come
to you through Abu Talib's lineage.

104) Eji Te roop amaroon jaanjo
Te Mowla Murtaza Ali avtar
Ali allah aek kari jaanjo
Te mahain shak ma aanjo lagaar Cheto....

104. Know My form, for though I am manifest in Murtaza Ali, I am the
Creator and do not doubt that.

105) Eji Jyare aevo farman aaviyo hazar thi
Tare Nabi Mohammed ne aaviyo aetbaar
Tyan dithi kudrat kadar tani
Boliya Nabi Mohammed teni var Cheto.....

105. When the Prophet heard this at Meraj, he gained faith and he saw
awe-inspiring things.

106) Eji Tare araj kidhi Ali janab ma
Tame sambaro parvardigar
Ali allah aek farmaviya
Teno te koon karshe aetbaar Cheto....

106. He requested Hazrat Ali saying, "How will I convince my fellow human
beings that you are God Manifest?"

107) Eji Tare dargah mathi farman aaviyo
Tame sambaro Mohammed mora piyar
Tam ghar farzand bibi Fatima
Teno Ali che bharthar Cheto.....

107. The reply from the Heaven to the Prophet was: "O My beloved Prophet,
marry your daughter to Hazrat Ali."

108) Eji Tam ghar farzand nar che
Am ghar farzand the bharthar
Tame Mohammed ame jallshanho
Aapan donoon no ay che vahevar Cheto.....

108. You have a daughter and I have the husband for her. You are Muhammed
and I am "Jal Shahnur"(Creator). Together we will carry on the mission.

109) Eji Jyare ae farzand mota thashe
Tyare karshoon te duniaanoon aachar
Ame tame donoon aek chiae
Tenoon koie na karsho vichar Cheto......

109. When your daughter will grow older I will create the circumstance for
her to marry Ali for indeed you are
from My Noor, so don't worry about the future.

110) Eji Bibi Fatima voravajo
Te Hazrat Ali gher nar
Tene tame tyan aaljo
Dejo dej mahain khawja char Cheto.....

110. Marry Bibi Fatima to Hazrat Ali in the dowry give her four servants.

111) Eji Te khawja raheshe hazoor main
Te upare bibi Fatima dharshe piyar
Teni dua ae tito vijshe
Tena thashe baho parivar Cheto....

111. These servants will stay with her and will respect and love Bibi
Fatima and she will ove them. These
servants will be regular in their prayers and their families will be happy.

112) Eji Teto manshe Mowla Ali ne
Seva karshe dhari baho pujar
Teno allah te ali kahiae
Je koie aanshe itbaar Cheto....

112. They will also believe in Hazrat Ali and will serve Him with love and
will acknowledge Ali as Allah.

113) Eji Ali allah je koie manshe
Teno pir te Nabi Mohammed avtar
Je nabi jini aal mahain thi upajshe
Te pir musalle saar Cheto....

113. Those who will acknowledge Ali as Allah, they are indeed equivalent
to Pir and Nabi, and one can call them as from Nabi.

114) Eji Aal alijini sahi kari manshe
Je thashe te khawja no parwar
Sache sidake te chalshe
Ali Mohammed ni aal upar rakhshe piyar Cheto....

114. Momins, believe Ali's progeny to be true and those who will do this
will get the benefit as those servants did. They will also be guided to
the right path if they will love Ali and Muhammed.

115) Eji Tena iamn ame rakhshoon
Jyare vartse kaljug kalikar
Tene potana kari rakhshoon
Aagal mahadan mahain utarsoon paar Cheto.....

115. We will believe with true Iman in Ali, especially in this present
material world (Kaljoog); we will also
consider Him as our own so that He will be our cause for salvation. (This
is what the servants will pledge.)

116) Eji Tare Nabi Mohammed boiya
Tame sambaro parvardigaar
Tamare farman ne ame chalsoon
Tame mehar karo sirjan haar Cheto.....

116. Nabi then replied, "O My Lord, I will obey Your Farman, please be
Merciful on me."

117) Eji Te Ali Mohammed aek che
Tena nam na joaa joaa vichar
Ali kirtar vishanu kahiae
Nabi Mohammed brahma jino avtar Cheto....

117. Momins, Ali and Muhammed are one. It is like different attributes of
God as one who would compare Ali to
Vishnu and Muhammed to Brahma.

[ShamsB]

Friends, I have been reading the discussions on Hujjat, Pir and Imam Mustawda with keen interest by elite scholars. Can any one explain,
" How the word Imam mustawda induced by Ismaili Dais in Fatimid period in connection to Hazrat Hassan, and the reason behind it because the word pir is not available in Arabic language."

It seems there is a difference of opinion on this subject. Abually considered Imam Mustawda as equal to the Pir. However there is a different opinion expressed here by tret and ismailignosis that they are two different concepts. I am trying to understand the difference myself.

kmaherali - there is no difference - or no new concept.

The central asians use the word Pir as a title for the Hujjat - the Satpanthis use it as a title for the Imam Mustawda.

Nasir Khusraw was the Hujjat of the Imam - but not the Imam Mustawda. There were other Hujjats of the Imam.

Hazar Imam is the 50th Imam Mustawda/Pir just as the Prophet was the First Imam Mustawda/Pir.

It's a cultural difference that we're blowing up into nothing.

It's the concept (to me atleast) of a Huzur Mukhi and an appointed sitting Mukhi.

One is a title - respect; the other has authority.

Shams

[tret]

I don't think it's a cultural thing. I think the concept of Hujjat vs Imam Mustawda need to be reconciled.

Hazar Imam is the 50th Imam Mustawda/Pir just as the Prophet was the First Imam Mustawda/Pir.

How can Imam Mistaqar be Imam Miustawda at the same time? Logically it doesn't make sense.

Mustaqar = means established/permanganate.
Mustawda = means temporary/entrusted.

So how can something/someone be permanent and at the same time temporary?

That's the reason why I try to explain that Imam Mustawda is not PIR or Hujjat. I mean we can agree to disagree at the end, but I'd like to know how can you conclude this?

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
I t was good to see n read the post of Ismaili103.He has become a successful franchisee of the Pir at a young age,it will in matter of time he becomes one for ALI.
Firstly the core,source of Noor is One n one only ALI, All other souls are from him
in a form of bandwidth.
please note Noor e Mohammadi/pirantan in a way quasi noor blessed with 7 th level of intellect.
they enjoy the same noor for limited period,purpose.they came with full blaze minus the remote control ,which is beyond one's counting of spiritual management of the universe,life,death,oceans,wind n many other faculties of creation.It lies solely with Imamat/ALI.

That why the status of Allah n noor are in diffirent Ayats n defined it accordingly
in parables(mild puzzle/search).

please be aware that noor e imamat(eyond comprehension) is greater than noor e pirantan even if they are off shoot from Ahle bayt.

Nevertheless they are a broad stream speaking as/for ALI as per mandate given to them.
Please note as per sura ikhlas n nisa, Ali+lah=Ali has no equal partners in ruling the earth n heavens.

So equating Pir with Imam other than Imam Himself carrying that status should be very cautious on how they present their POV

Our Dua,prayers all act are to get closer to Imam/Noor E KHUDHA
not to Pir( even if he carries that title).

our salvat is to bless ourselves to raise our level to prophet mohammed/
7th level of Intellect.
it is He who send blessing not vice versa.

[kmaherali]

I don't think it's a cultural thing. I think the concept of Hujjat vs Imam Mustawda need to be reconciled.

Hazar Imam is the 50th Imam Mustawda/Pir just as the Prophet was the First Imam Mustawda/Pir.

How can Imam Mistaqar be Imam Miustawda at the same time? Logically it doesn't make sense.

Mustaqar = means established/permanganate.
Mustawda = means temporary/entrusted.

So how can something/someone be permanent and at the same time temporary?

That's the reason why I try to explain that Imam Mustawda is not PIR or Hujjat. I mean we can agree to disagree at the end, but I'd like to know how can you conclude this?

According to my understanding, the Imam is both the Shah and the Pir at all times. However at certain times in our history he has chosen to delegate the function of Piratan to another Ahl al-Bayt. When that happened the person became the functioning Pir or Hujjat. Abually equates that role to Imam Mustawda. Hence when the Imam decides not to delegate the role of Piratan to anyone else, there is no Imam Mustawda, there is only Imam Mustaqar as at present time who functions as the Shah and the Pir.

The present Imam is the 50th Pir but not the 50th Imam Mustawda.

Now if you are saying that Imam Mustawda's role is other than Piratan, please explain that role with reference to Hazarat Hasan's life.

[agakhani]

I have quoted quite few times 1964 Farman of MHI made at Karachi in which He explained the meaning of Aliullah, He said, " ALLIULLAH MEANS ALI IS FROM ALLAH." Now it is up to you, or Mr.Shams B, or any one else,

Just only one farman? that is it?!! but I have at least a dozen farmans of 46th, 47th & 48th imams in these farmans they declared clearly that 'ALI IS THE ALLAH"!! what about those farmans??

[tret]

The present Imam is the 50th Pir but not the 50th Imam Mustawda.

So you agree that Imam Mustawda is not the same as PIR [Hujjat], correct?

[tret]

The present Imam is the 50th Pir...

So, help me out here. We have 49 Imams and you said that historically there were Imams that assumed the role of Hujjat[PIR] as well, so can you explain why there's 50 PIRs but 49 Imams? Shouldn't there be one PIR for each Imam?

[Admin]

Your premisses are flawed because you can not reasonably have each Pir having the same number of years of life as the Imam of his time. That is a simple matter of logic.

[tret]

Your premisses are flawed because you can not reasonably have each Pir having the same number of years of life as the Imam of his time. That is a simple matter of logic.

I was expecting to get a reference of the Imam who appointed the two pirs, but instead... I'd suggest if you can't provide information, then refrain from replying. anyways.

But that still doesn't prove how Imam Mustaqar is the same as Imam Mustawda.

[agakhani]

I was expecting to get a reference of the Imam who appointed the two pirs,

As like Imam pir should be only one at a time, have you heard any time that there were two living imams? I bet you didn't same way pir can not be two. if you look and read the history of Ismaili pir's then you will not find any where in 1400 years history that there were two pirs at a time!, it is possible and there were 2 or more dais, Syedas, Sadats in past , but pir should be only one I do not know who told you that one Ismaili imam had appointed 2 pirs in past? I think this is your just imaginary story because first of all you do not believe in pirs concepts and other reason you do not have left any weapons to fight with readers so, you just make the story about pirs!!

You asked why 50 pirs and 49 Imams?
Well brother Tret for the right answer use your common scenes, it is simple logic that nobody have same years to lives Imam Ali Shah's piratan was lasted longer then his Imamat!! only 4 years. One Ismaili pirs was died as infant! so it is not necessary that the Imams #s and pirs #s should be equal.

[agakhani]

But that still doesn't prove how Imam Mustaqar is the same as Imam Mustawda.

This is question has been asked many time before by you and it has been answered by Admin, Shams B, Kbhai and even my self many time! but our answers you have never accepted and still keep asking same question again and again!!, which force me to believe that you have some kind mental problems so, for the correct answer I think you should have to take an appointment with mental doctor! before it goes worse!.

[tret]

As like Imam pir should be only one at a time, have you heard any time that there were two living imams? I bet you didn't same way pir can not be two. if you look and read the history of Ismaili pir's then you will not find any where in 1400 years history that there were two pirs at a time!, it is possible and there were 2 or more dais, Syedas, Sadats in past , but pir should be only one I do not know who told you that one Ismaili imam had appointed 2 pirs in past? I think this is your just imaginary story because first of all you do not believe in pirs concepts and other reason you do not have left any weapons to fight with readers so, you just make the story about pirs!!

Please try and understand the question first, before imploding!! I am sorry if you got the impression that I don't believe in the notion of pir, but that's your problem. I'd suggest you first read the post and then make a comment.

I have seen many comment of yours got deleted quite frequently by admin, then any other members [there must be a reason, inspite you being a devotee of admin].

I have seen many comments of you, saying I don't believe in Farmaan, I am not an Ismaili, I have 2 IDs and others as such. Well, these are your assumptions and speculations, which which are fuelled by prejudice and hatred towards other ismaili communities, such as central asian, and that surly impairs your judgement. I have always tried to avoid responding to your replies which are too often insulting, abusive which clearly reflects your values and beliefs.

Again, like admin, if you don't have anything valuable to add to the conversation, I strongly urge you to refrain from posting all together.

[tret]

But that still doesn't prove how Imam Mustaqar is the same as Imam Mustawda.

This is question has been asked many time before by you and it has been answered by Admin, Shams B, Kbhai and even my self many time! but our answers you have never accepted and still keep asking same question again and again!!, which force me to believe that you have some kind mental problems so, for the correct answer I think you should have to take an appointment with mental doctor! before it goes worse!.

It was answered by your circle of folks, then the answer must be true! that sounds very intelligent!

Then go please ask your phd, how can something temporary be permanent at the same time?

Who is suffering from what is clearly reflected in their postings. I guess observers have a fair common sense to see who needs what. sajamdaroo ka ishara karna kafi hai.

[Admin]

Your premisses are flawed because you can not reasonably have each Pir having the same number of years of life as the Imam of his time. That is a simple matter of logic.

I was expecting to get a reference of the Imam who appointed the two pirs, but instead... I'd suggest if you can't provide information, then refrain from replying. anyways.

But that still doesn't prove how Imam Mustaqar is the same as Imam Mustawda.

What you were expecting is irrelevant and what you said is relevant but unfortunately completely unreasonable and childish. Hazar Imam said often you can get the right answer if you ask the right question. It seems that concept is very much foreign to you.

[tret]

Your premisses are flawed because you can not reasonably have each Pir having the same number of years of life as the Imam of his time. That is a simple matter of logic.

I was expecting to get a reference of the Imam who appointed the two pirs, but instead... I'd suggest if you can't provide information, then refrain from replying. anyways.

But that still doesn't prove how Imam Mustaqar is the same as Imam Mustawda.

What you were expecting is irrelevant and what you said is relevant but unfortunately completely unreasonable and childish. Hazar Imam said often you can get the right answer if you ask the right question. It seems that concept is very much foreign to you.

On the contrary, what we expect is very relevant! Besides, the question was implied. That was not the point anyways. The actual question for you to answer, if you know, is how can a temporary be permanent?

Let me remind you of what you posted yourself. A fine sayings of Mauwla Ali.

"If you hide what you know, you will be supposed to know nothing."

Maxims of Hazrat Ali
Ashraf publication, Pakistan

[nuseri]

Ya Ali Madad:
I assume that some members are reading too much and taking it for granted the writings of late Alwaez. It is a call they are taking.

I personally do not even take the translation of Ayats as granted forget the tafseer.
As my personal obesrvation:
1.Those who are trying to promote Mullahs,kazi n moulanas along with physical religious practice of medieval ages and suspecting ALI can be observed as 'kafirs'.

2.One who is assuming ALI and other entities as Pir's is a Panjebhai.

3.One who is believing n preaching ALI as Imam n beyond that on relational basis is a Momin.( varying levels here).

4.One who preaches 'THE/YA ALI" .where even the word Allah ceases to exist as it sublimes in the word n entity ALI can be called as Hujjat.

ALI is what HE is,based on Farmans of Imam what does he desire for us.

The word risk exist at level 2 & 3 at level 4 even that ceases to exist.IT IS 'SACRIFICE.'
even with word n fear of risk,one may speak truth here and lie there to save one's skin, life or job.
There is a variety of all level and all are there on this site.

In many ways we all members at 3 and 4 are "JE SUIS ALI'.

[kmaherali]

The present Imam is the 50th Pir but not the 50th Imam Mustawda.

So you agree that Imam Mustawda is not the same as PIR [Hujjat], correct?

You haven't read my whole post. No I don't agree. I said that the person of the Ahl al-Bayt who is appointed by the Imam as the Pir is the Imam Mustawda. However when the Imam retains the function of Piratan for himself then there is no Imam Mustawda. Hence the present Imam who is Imam Mustaqar functions as the Imam and the Pir. There is no Imam Mustawda.

Imam Musatawda only applies to the Pir who is appointed by the Imam.

[kmaherali]

The present Imam is the 50th Pir...

So, help me out here. We have 49 Imams and you said that historically there were Imams that assumed the role of Hujjat[PIR] as well, so can you explain why there's 50 PIRs but 49 Imams? Shouldn't there be one PIR for each Imam?

Obviously we cannot always have a one to one relationship between the Imamat and Piratan. If you read the history of the Pirs which is available in this forum, you will realize that some Pirs served multiple Imams and some Imams had multiple Pirs during their Imamat.

For example:

30. PI'R HAIDER ALI (1 Pir for 3 Imams)

Pi'r Haider Ali was appointed as the Pi'r by Ima'm Mustansir Billah-II. The Pi'r sent his da'i's to Turkey and to Central Asia.

When Sayyid Ima'm Shah bin Pi'r Hasan Kabi'r'di'n went to see the Holy Ima'm in Kahak and prayed to Ima'm Abu-Zar Ali to show him the Heaven and the Hell109, the Holy Ima'm ordered Pi'r Haider Ali to fulfill his desire. The Pi'r was known among the followers as Jabr'eel.110 The Pi'r guided Sayyid Ima'm Shah to attain the ba'tini vision of his desire.
Pi'r Haider Ali served his brother Ima'm Abd Salaam, Ima'm Ghari'b Mirza and Ima'm Abu-Zar Ali. He died during the Ima'mat of Ima'm Abu-Zar Ali.

48. PI'R AGHA ABUL HASAN SHAH (I Imam for 2 Pirs)

Pi'r Agha Abul Hasan Shah died after three months during the Ima'mat of Ima'm Sulta'n Mohammed Shah. Pi'ra'tan remained with the Holy Ima'm for the rest of his life.