quran as mentioned in preamble

[Admin]

It's the sole prerogative of the Imam of the time to appoint who should be the Supreme Hujjat, from amongst the 12 Hujjat of the Day. Or more particularly from the 4 Hujjat of the proximity.

There is a huge difference between the Supreme Hujjat, (Satadari Pir) and the other Pir. Pir Sadardin had 12 hujjats with him, he was not part of the 12 hujjats. You may know the Farman to this effect by SMS, else I am sure someone on this forum will find the exact wording.

There were 12 with Jesus but he was not part of them. Same idea here.

Only the word Hujjat is the same but the meaning is different. Like when you say Mowlana Ali and you say Mowlana Rumi, or pech Imam instead of Imam Ali it is not the same concept.

The same goes with the Supreme Hujjat and the other Hujjats in charge of the 12 geographical locations.

[tret]

There is a huge difference between the Supreme Hujjat, (Satadari Pir) and the other Pir.

What's the difference?

Supreme Hujjat [aka Pir] is the also known as Ba'ab. Means gate. Pir is used in ginanic texts, where as Hujjat is the term that was used pre-ginanic literature. They both means the same. It's just linguistic differences. The concept remains the same.


Of course, Jesus and Hazrat Ali is not the same as Supreme Hujjat. They are apart from it [them the 12 Hujjat]. Jesus [Prophet Isa] was the Natiq which is above the rank of Hujjat [the supreme Hujjat] and as such not from among the 12 Hujjats; however, Ba'ab [Supreme Hujjat aka Pir] is from amongst the 12 Hujjats of Day [or 4 Hujjats of proximity, which is allegorized as 4 gates of Ka'ba.

[Admin]

Please read my post before replying. Thank you. if you do not have the time to read it, please do not reply to it.

[tret]

Please read my post before replying. Thank you. if you do not have the time to read it, please do not reply to it.

No, I did read your post. Not sure why do you assume I hadn't read it.

I am asking you why do you think that only one Pir is different than others? Do you have any reference about your assertion? This is not my idea or understanding. this is how the essence of our faith, and teachings of our Pir/Hujjats. So, you assumed that the answer is given in your post, but I am asking you why this one Pir is different than others? and please provide any reference to back up your argument, or your assertion doesn't hold any ground. Note, that the reference to Jesus and Mauwla Ali doesn't have any ground, because they weren't Hujjat, but Natiq. Besides, we are not talking about linguistic differences.

[Admin]

Let me tell this again in English or let me know what language you understand. Please read my post else do not waste time with your blabbering.

And if you did not read properly my post, please read it and stop this nonsense about repeating a third time that you have read something which obviously you have not read or do not care about..

I do not recall being so harsh even with non-Ismailis in this Forum but you have done enough mockery of the opportunity you have to freely express your thought.

I have mentioned Sultan Muhammad Shah's Farman about the 12 hujjats being different persons from the Pir. If you have read this, it would mean you do not care about finding anything on this. And if you have not, then again for the umpteen time, read first.



And if what Imam says make no diference to you, you are in the wrong forum.

[tret]

Admin - I am not sure what's bothering you? I simply asked you a question and clarification, there's no need to get worked up.

You said:

There is a huge difference between the Supreme Hujjat, (Satadari Pir) and the other Pir

Pir obviously has different meaning in different context. We are not talking about other context and its meanings. It's very clear we are talking about Hujjat [aka Pir in khojagi lingo]. This Pir is the same office that our current beloved HI occupying, and HE is ShahPir. I hope the context is clear. So, the Hujjat [of the Imam] or Pir is one and the same, except in Khojagi text, it's called Pir, and in pre=khojagi it's called Hujjat. Take your pick whichever one suites you. But, in this context Hujjat and Pir mean the same thing.

However, I grant you that Pir in different context mean different things, as you stated.

Pir Sadardin had 12 hujjats with him, he was not part of the 12 hujjats.

I'd like to make a correction about what I said. You are right here.

There are 12 Hujjats of Day
There are 12 Hujjats of Night
There are 4 Hujjats of Proximity [which are different that 12 Hujjat of Day]
Now, Supreme Hujjat[Pir] is elected amongst these 4 Hujjats of proximity which is different from the 12 Hujjat of Day

quote="Admin"]
Only the word Hujjat is the same but the meaning is different
[/quote]
I don't understand what this means? What do you mean? word Hujjat between which ones?

And if what Imam says make no diference to you, you are in the wrong forum.

I really hope this is impulsive, and you really didn't mean this.
Because, from where I see, any ismaili cares about the Farmaan of the Imam, unless you assume I am not an ismaili, then it's your problem and not mine!
If you don't want me in this forum, simply delete my account and that would be it. I don't want you to get iterated! After all, you have a long reach than anyone else, right.

[kmaherali]

Then how do you come to conclusion that Imam is Allah/The Transcendent?

If we say that 'Mr X has skills and knowledge of a teacher manifest in him' and if we say 'Mr X is a teacher'. From a practical standpoint what would be the difference?

Similarly if we say the ''qualities' of God (Essence) are manifested in the Imam' and if we say 'Imam is God (Essence)'. Is there any difference?

Nasir Khusraw has said in Kalame Pir: "The Imam is the Hujjat or Proof of God and it is for this reason some Imams have said, "What is said about God refers also to us.".

I hope the notion of Mazhar is now clarified.

Please do not try to avoid the question I asked.

- Is your assetion of "Imam is Allah", in-line with MHI's guidance according to Surah-khlas???
- Do you understand the meaning of Surah-Ikhlas??

Yes it is. In Ismailism Ikhas is something to be realized. It is not an idle speculation. From an ordinary standpoint God is beyond comprehension, understanding, without partners etc etc. This notion is common to all Muslims. From a standpoint of a person who has become Fanna, he/she is one with God. It is a relative concept.

Imam is a perfect Realized being and hence he is God, the Transcendant. I explained this when I mentioned how a person becomes one in Gnosis.Ikhlas without the means of realizing Oneness is meaningless. Hence the notion of the Imam as the Mazhar of the Essence is vital. He cannot be a guide if he himself is not God

Irrespective of whether it is the same or different we need to adhere to the latest exposition which is consistent with the current intellectual climate.

In the same chapter the Imam says:

"The Shias have therefore always held that after the Prophet's death, Divine power, guidance and leadership manifested themselves in Hazrat Ali as the first Imam or spiritual chief of the devout."

I hope the above statement is self explanatory about the status of Ali.

kmaherali - I asked you where does the Farmaan of MSMS implies that Imam is Allah, and you are saying totally something else. I don't see any relevance of this Farmaan in the context of our discussion. I asked you how mono-reality implies that Imam is Allah, and you are trying to prove the status of Imam Ali. Don't avoid the question.][/quote]MSMS explains the concept very beautifully and there is nothing more that needs to be said. This is not a Farman, it is the statement of Imam in the same chapter which clearly states that he is the Mazhar.

Please put it here. I can't find'em!

I am reposting what I mentioned in my previous post to Mazhar.

As you are a staunch Ismaili and who follows the Farman of the Imam, consider the following Farmans:

"I would like any spiritual child who is here present, who attends religious night school, to answer to Me what is the meaning of Malikin naas. You know the Sura which says Kul A 'uzu bir Rabin naas,Elahin naas. What does Malikin naas mean? Which is the spiritual child here who can tell Me the meaning of Malikin naas?

(One spiritual child gave the meaning of "Malikin naas Master of the People The Imam "; Hazar Imam was very pleased )

Good, very good."

If the Imam himself says that he is Malikin naas, does it not imply from the Quranic Ayat that he is also Rabin naas (the Lord of the People) and Elahin naas (God of the People)?

In another Farman explaining the notion of Esoteric Islam (Sufism) MHI said:

"Do you know who was Al Hallaj? Which is the spiritual child here who can tell Me who was Al Hallaj?
(One spiritual child answered, Mansoor Al Hallaj ) Hazar Imam asked
"What was his main aim in life?"

(The same spiritual child replied, To be one with Allah and further added that Mansoor achieved the status of Fanna fillah and said An al Haq )

My beloved spiritual children,

The question I asked was difficult. It was a very difficult question because it did not concern our history, but it concerned a concept. A concept of the practice of Islam which is close to our concept, which is the concept of spirituality and Al Hallaj became a martyr because he believed that he had elevated his soul, that he had sufficiently eliminated all worldly matters, so that his soul should be identified with the Oneness with the Universal Unity, and he claimed publicly, An al Haq which means I am the Truth, and the Muslims of the time treated him as a heretic and he was put to death as a heretic. The reason I asked this question is that I want My spiritual children in the years ahead to understand the two concepts of Islam; the spiritual concept which is ours, and those of certain other branches of Islam, namely those who say no, there is no esoteric form to Islam, there is but an exoteric form. This is why I asked who was Al Hallaj, and I am very happy and I congratulate the spiritual child who knew who was Al Hallaj. Khanavadan"

If Mansur could elevate himself and become one with Allah, don't you think that the Imam whom we consider as the Pure in our Dua would not be one with Allah as well? Try to understand Sufism, then you will realize the status of the Imam.

So you think I am a lier!

I never said that! I simply implied to ask for any evidence, besides your words.

And what kind of evidence would that be? Do you expect this to be documented?

Mowlana has used the word infidelty to convey a message that he is not following the norm of the time, i.e, he was considering Shams as God the Transendant! I have quoted the verses of the Diwan in this thread. Please go through the thread.

Please put the verse here. I can't find it. These threads grow so quickly, we lose track of the replies. Please once more, post it here, with vers#, page#, chapter#, whether it's from Divan-e-Shams or Masnavi...

I am reposting it here....

Rumi was very clear and empahtic about calling Shams God although it was considered as a shirk by others.Following is an excerpt from Annemarie Schimmel's book:

It is not meet that I should call you banda ['servant', human]
But I am afraid to call you God, khuda!(D 2768)

Such verses understandably enraged the people of Konya. But for Maulana there was no doubt:

Shamsulhaqq [Sun of Divine Truth], if I see in your clear mirror
Aught but God, I am worse than an infidel!(D 1027)

And he knows his difficult position and yet calls out:

Whether it be infidelity or Islam, listen:
You are either the light of God or God, khuda!(D 2711)

And he qualified this statement in the lines:

You are that light which said to Moses:
I am God, I am God, I am God! (D 1526)

[tret]

"Do you know who was Al Hallaj? Which is the spiritual child here who can tell Me who was Al Hallaj?
(One spiritual child answered, Mansoor Al Hallaj ) Hazar Imam asked
"What was his main aim in life?"

(The same spiritual child replied, To be one with Allah and further added that Mansoor achieved the status of Fanna fillah and said An al Haq )

My beloved spiritual children,

The question I asked was difficult. It was a very difficult question because it did not concern our history, but it concerned a concept. A concept of the practice of Islam which is close to our concept, which is the concept of spirituality and Al Hallaj became a martyr because he believed that he had elevated his soul, that he had sufficiently eliminated all worldly matters, so that his soul should be identified with the Oneness with the Universal Unity, and he claimed publicly, An al Haq which means I am the Truth, and the Muslims of the time treated him as a heretic and he was put to death as a heretic. The reason I asked this question is that I want My spiritual children in the years ahead to understand the two concepts of Islam; the spiritual concept which is ours, and those of certain other branches of Islam, namely those who say no, there is no esoteric form to Islam, there is but an exoteric form. This is why I asked who was Al Hallaj, and I am very happy and I congratulate the spiritual child who knew who was Al Hallaj. Khanavadan"

I actually had read this Farmaan. Please carefully read the Farmaan.

The murid replies with phrases such as "Fana", "be one with Allah". However, read carefully, Imam doesn't say that. Instead, Imam says he elvated his soul and his soul should be identified.

This is what I had already explained in some other thread probably. It's us [murids] who say we become one with Allah, which is sufi order [Note even MHI says it's close to our concep. MHI doesn't say it's the same as our concept, but close]. Please note, Imam's each word is very very important. I high lighted and underlined Imam's words and no where Imam says that a person becomes one with Allah. Instead MHI says 'identified with'. To you, from practicle POV may not look different, but conceptually it's a huge difference where you make a distinction between murid and Murshid. Please re-read carefully and don't focus on what the murid says [such as 'fana' or 'become one with Allah'] but rather focus on what Imam says.

Yes it is. In Ismailism Ikhas is something to be realized. It is not an idle speculation. From an ordinary standpoint God is beyond comprehension, understanding, without partners etc etc. This notion is common to all Muslims. From a standpoint of a person who has become Fanna, he/she is one with God. It is a relative concept.

It's your understanding of surah Ikhlas. I don't agree with that. I know you and I can't reconcile the concept of the Transcendent. I think we should agree to disagree, because we have had this discussio one too many times.

And what kind of evidence would that be? Do you expect this to be documented?

No, I guess we can leave it at that.

I am reposting it here....

Rumi was very clear and empahtic about calling Shams God although it was considered as a shirk by others.Following is an excerpt from Annemarie Schimmel's book:

It is not meet that I should call you banda ['servant', human]
But I am afraid to call you God, khuda!(D 2768)

Such verses understandably enraged the people of Konya. But for Maulana there was no doubt:

Shamsulhaqq [Sun of Divine Truth], if I see in your clear mirror
Aught but God, I am worse than an infidel!(D 1027)

And he knows his difficult position and yet calls out:

Whether it be infidelity or Islam, listen:
You are either the light of God or God, khuda!(D 2711)

And he qualified this statement in the lines:

You are that light which said to Moses:
I am God, I am God, I am God! (D 1526)

I was expecting you to provide reference from Divan/Masnavi of Mawlana. But apparently this is someone else's opinion. I have both Masnavi and Divan of Mawlana, and studied some works about mawlana. And I can tell you, in the terminology of poetery, especially in sufi order, is used in different themes. This term may [or may not] mean The Supreme God/The Transcendent. there are fine details that can be lost -- very well -- in translation, especially when it comes to poetery of persia. Trust me on that. If you can find direct reference in Divan / Masnavi of mawlana, the I can put the exact verse and we can observe.

[kmaherali]

Few corrections, kmaherali -.

So you have assumed the role of a Mulla! On what basis have you made this statement. How sure are you that you are right. It is comtemptuous and arrogant to make such a statement.

Imam of the Time is not always[/b] SharPir [Imama/Hujjat]

I totally disagree. You are entitled to your understanding. Let us leave it at that.

Second, Supreme Hujjat[aka Pir] can be from non-Ahl-e-Bayte ]

Throughout our history the Pirs have always been from Ahlal-Bayt. I think you do not understand the notion of Piratan.

Third, our Prophet's role wasn't excursively as Pir [Hujjat];]

Whatever activities the Pir engages himself is always in his capacity as the Pir, whether he is a Prophet or whether he is a Mursheed of our tariqah, he is always a Pir.

From an Ismaili perspective though the Prophet was the murid of Hazarat Ali.

Please don't say "From Ismaili perspective". If it's your opinion, that's fine. But don't imply something as Ismaili belief without evidence and proof. The Prophet was not murid of the Hazrat Ali. As I said before, Prophet Mohammad was the last Natiq and Mawla Ali was his Wasi, during his lifetime, but after cycle of Nabuwat, Mauwla Ali as the first Manifest Imam assumes the same rank as Natiq during the cycle of Nabuwat. This rank of Natiq is in fact the office of Imamate which is ever present and ever existence.

According to Tusi the lineage of Imamat is exalted and nothing compares with it. Please read the Paradise of Submission!

[kmaherali]

I actually had read this Farmaan. Please carefully read the Farmaan.

The murid replies with phrases such as "Fana", "be one with Allah". However, read carefully, Imam doesn't say that. Instead, Imam says he elvated his soul and his soul should be identified.

This is what I had already explained in some other thread probably. It's us [murids] who say we become one with Allah, which is sufi order [Note even MHI says it's close to our concep. MHI doesn't say it's the same as our concept, but close]. Please note, Imam's each word is very very important. I high lighted and underlined Imam's words and no where Imam says that a person becomes one with Allah. Instead MHI says 'identified with'. To you, from practicle POV may not look different, but conceptually it's a huge difference where you make a distinction between murid and Murshid. Please re-read carefully and don't focus on what the murid says [such as 'fana' or 'become one with Allah'] but rather focus on what Imam says.

If we say that 'Mr X is identified as being an Ismaili' and if we say that 'Mr X is an Ismaili.' What is the difference from a conceptual and practical point of view? Please explain.
BTW MSMS used the word Fanna Fi Allah in the Usel-e-din, so it is not correct to say that it is murid's talk!

[kmaherali]

[I was expecting you to provide reference from Divan/Masnavi of Mawlana. But apparently this is someone else's opinion. I have both Masnavi and Divan of Mawlana, and studied some works about mawlana. And I can tell you, in the terminology of poetery, especially in sufi order, is used in different themes. This term may [or may not] mean The Supreme God/The Transcendent. there are fine details that can be lost -- very well -- in translation, especially when it comes to poetery of persia. Trust me on that. If you can find direct reference in Divan / Masnavi of mawlana, the I can put the exact verse and we can observe.

The opinion I gave you is of a very well respected and acclaimed scholar in Islamic mysticism. She had spent many years of her life studying Mowlana Rumi. If I were to choose between her opinion and yours, I would prefer to choose her's.

[tret]

tret wrote:

Imam of the Time is not always SharPir [Imama/Hujjat]
I totally disagree. You are entitled to your understanding. Let us leave it at that.

kmaherali -
I have not assumed any position.
According to Nizari Ismaili, the office of Hujjatship historically has been delegated to one of 4 Hujjats of proximity. Today however, our current HI occupies both offices of Imamate and Hujjatship.

Now, tell me when historically Imam of the time was both Imam as well as His Hujjat?

Throughout our history the Pirs have always been from Ahlal-Bayt. I think you do not understand the notion of Piratan.

Are you referring to the Hujjat of the Imam, when you refer to Pir? or is a different Pir that you are talking about? Please elaborate. This way you can introduce me to the notion of Piratan, if my understanding is different.

Whatever activities the Pir engages himself is always in his capacity as the Pir, whether he is a Prophet or whether he is a Mursheed of our tariqah, he is always a Pir.

This is your opinion, and I respect that. Again, please don't imply it to our tariqa [Nizari Ismaili]. If you do so, please provide reference. According to Qur'an, Islam and Imam [see our Constitution for details], Prophet Mohammad is the last and final Messenger of God. That's his first and primary role. He is also one of 6 Natiq who had a revelation like any other Natiqs such as Moses, Jesus. I provided you reference to an authentic and wisely accepted Hadis both by ahl-e-sunnah as well shia, that Prophet said [Mauwla] Ali is the same as Aron was to Musa. Tell me you do not believe this Hadis?

Having said that, Natiq [Prophet at His cycle, and Imam at His age] can function as Asas [Hujjat or Wasi].

According to Tusi the lineage of Imamat is exalted and nothing compares with it. Please read the Paradise of Submission!

I have read Paradise of Submission and I understand the exalted rank of Imamate. That is rank of Natiq [Prophets ar His cycle, Imamas at His age]. I never deny that. Office of Imamate has been always there since the beginning and shall always remain. So, during the lifetime of the Prophet, He had the rank of Natiq, and Mauwla Ali was his Wasi [As I referenced the Hadis]. After Prophet [as also re-emphasized at Ghadir-i-khum], Mawula Ali became the first Manifest Imam and occupied the rank of Natiq as Imam.

similarly, during the lifetime of other Prophets, His wasi after the Prophet occupy the rank of Natiq and the lineage continues until next Natiq.

Our lineage of Imamate, which started with Mauwla Ali, shall continue untll Qa'yim ul Qiamat.

this is all explained beautifully in Paradise of Submission. I hope you would consider these as well, when you make a reference from a source.

If we say that 'Mr X is identified as being an Ismaili' and if we say that 'Mr X is an Ismaili.' What is the difference from a conceptual and practical point of view? Please explain.
BTW MSMS used the word Fanna Fi Allah in the Usel-e-din, so it is not correct to say that it is murid's talk!

kmaherali - Did you in fact re-read the Farmaan you referenced and paid attention to what Imam said vs what murid said?
As I said, and I repeat, when we say 'identified by' we are making a clear distinction between murid and Murshid. i.e. if you are in a completely dark room and can perceive anything. Then as soon as you turn on the light, all objects present in the room can be perceived. Now, so long as the light is on, the objects are perceived by the agent. But, as soon as you turn off the light, the agent won't have the capacity to perceive the objects. So, in the context of Tawh'id, the murid is always seeking closeness [taqarrub], and it's The Divine's mercy to grant murid or not to. It's completely will of the Divine and not attainable. As I said, the similarities of sufi order with our tariqa, is the personal inquiry aspect of the tariqa, the seeking of esoteric meaning of the faith. However, in the concept of Tawh'id, there are differences. In the concept of Imamate [Murshid-e-Kamil] there are differences.

Again, this is my understanding. I am not expecting you to agree with me either. What you believe and understand is totally fine with me.

The opinion I gave you is of a very well respected and acclaimed scholar in Islamic mysticism. She had spent many years of her life studying Mowlana Rumi. If I were to choose between her opinion and yours, I would prefer to choose her's.

then I guess this would be yet another item to put in our bucket of "let's agree to disagree".

[agakhani]

Tret,

Here is simple definition for pirs and in your considerate Hujjat:

1, Pirs should be from Ahle -e- Bait family.
2, Pirs should be appointed by Imam of the times

Now if above two conditions apply to Rumi and Khushru then you can consider them as official pirs ( appointed by imams of their times ) other wise they are just dais and in my opinions dust below the shoes of Ismailis pirs!

One more suggestion go straight to ITREB office and tell them some one from Texas says that if above 2 conditions does not apply to Ismaili pirs then they are the just a jutti of a real pirs!! let me know what they have to say and stop wasting your more time for this issue because you will find real and correct answers over there.

Because I am just tired to read same old arguments from you! which you did many times in past and now you are arguing with KBhai with your trash thinking and garbage thoughts!

[tret]

Tret,

Here is simple definition for pirs and in your considerate Hujjat:

1, Pirs should be from Ahle -e- Bait family.
2, Pirs should be appointed by Imam of the times

Now if above two conditions apply to Rumi and Khushru then you can consider them as official pirs ( appointed by imams of their times ) other wise they are just dais and in my opinions dust below the shoes of Ismailis pirs!

One more suggestion go straight to ITREB office and tell them some one from Texas says that if above 2 conditions does not apply to Ismaili pirs then they are the just a jutti of a real pirs!! let me know what they have to say and stop wasting your more time for this issue because you will find real and correct answers over there.

Because I am just tired to read same old arguments from you! which you did many times in past and now you are arguing with KBhai with your trash thinking and garbage thoughts!

Mauwla Ali says, sometimes silence is the best answer.

[agakhani]

sometimes silence is the best answer.

I, hope you will follow H. Ali (s.a.) above sermon and keep your damn mouth shut and will stop to drag readers in your garbage thinking at least on Pirs!!!

[agakhani]

Pir Sadardin had 12 hujjats with him,

Admin,

Do you have the names of pir Sadardin's 12 Hujjats?

I, also heard that pir Sadardin had 12 disciples who were also preaching for him? this info found in pirs's history book! but no names has been printed in that books except one Devayat Pandit or Devarakh.

If you know the names then please put it here.

[tret]

to drag readers in your garbage thinking at least on Pirs!!![/b]

Mauwla Ali also said, a wise person always has something to say, but an unwise person always needs to say something. you are not unwise, but sometimes the thing you say is unwise. Now, a wise person would correctly get the point. Thanks.

[nuseri]

Ya Ali madad:

It seems both kmaherali n tret are offloading the syllabus of I.I.S in the forum. Both are getting equal points.one advocating God/ ALI via Pir route n other 'eternal ALI' via hujjat route.
It is said variety is spice of life.
I would like these august scholars to write on 'Convergence of Spirituality with Biology'.
As young generations would like to relate it to science with understanding n acknowledge it n even accept it in times of today.

[mazhar]

Dear Kmaherali,
With ref. to your recent post addressed to me and asking meaning of following couplet as you don't know the language and some other clearifications;
GANJ BUKHSH FAIZ E ALAM MAZHAR E NOOR E KHUDA
NAKASAAN RA PIR E KAMIL, KAMLAAN RA RAHNUMA
Translation; From your spiritual treasures give abundance and barakat to world (people) O manifestation of Noorullah. For weak ( in faith ) you are murshid e kamil and
for way fareres ( on spiritual path ) you are true guide. According to your assertion there can be many mazhar i zaat i Illahi's in the world at a time, like one in the above couplet ie Datta ganj bukhsh Hajweri in Lahore. He was also sayyed. AT a time Shams Tabrezi was also a mazhar. Also, Hassan Basri, Rabia Basri, Mansoor Hallaj, Bayazid bustami, Ibrahim Adham, Zunnun Misri, Bashar Hafi, Habib Ajmi, It is a long list. They were all from fana fillah group. I do not under stand that all these Mazhars are found in Islamic world, What about the rest of world.
The meaning of ZILL E ILLAHI is shadow of God (on earth).
With ref." to give you a funny example" I wrote, my name is Mazhar Khan, I related Khan with Aga khan and asked you, can I be Mazhar of Aga Khan means manifestation of Aga Khan ( I did not used the word Imam ) and that was all according to your deducing theory.
Km, you did not answer my query I posted. Once again I am asking you same question." In Ginanic literature Hari is replaced by Ali.So Naklanki awtar became Ali.
KAL MA VISHNU IMAM. This is how Pir Sadruddin explained Hindus of his time for conversion.That is how reincarnation changed to essence of Noorullah by applying 24/35".
My other question is that no one is quoting the entire ayat i Noor. Always last portion is missing. That is," wa yadhrib ullah ul amsaal linnasi.wallahu bi kuli shainn Aleem.
Means, Allah set forth Parables for people and He is knower of all things. Now my question is, WHAT IS THE MATERIAL OF NOOR .CAN WE CATCH IT, HOLD IT. CAN WE SEE IT, SEEING IS BELIEVING. DOES NOOR HAS SHADOW. ACCORDING LAWS OF NATURE, WHAT IS THE NATURE OF NOOR. IS IT LIKE NEON SIGN LIGHT OR IS IT FIRE? Allah says masalu noorhi ka mishkat, and at end says I am explaining in Parables. So what is Noor. In Ginans the word Noor has been used in different ways...
In 7/8 ginans the word Noor is used totally in different meanings!

[tret]

Now my question is, WHAT IS THE MATERIAL OF NOOR .CAN WE CATCH IT, HOLD IT. CAN WE SEE IT, SEEING IS BELIEVING. DOES NOOR HAS SHADOW. ACCORDING LAWS OF NATURE, WHAT IS THE NATURE OF NOOR. IS IT LIKE NEON SIGN LIGHT OR IS IT FIRE?

The noor [light] as we know it, is the closest thing that can be compared to as The Noor, which is mentioned in the Qur'an, in Ayat Noor. Or the Light/Noor that Imam is referring to. Today, science has discovered that light is not truly omnipresent. the light actually takes time to travel from the sun to earth and is measurable and finite.

[agakhani]

900 years ago at that time science was in its dark stage, there was no scientist lab there! not even any scintist there and nobody knows what would the fitire name will given to the measurement of light"s traveling in 18th century? at that time pir Shams give the name "light years" which name scientist using now a days !to find out the speed of lights and distance between earth to different planets! doesn't it enough that Ismaili pirs have Devine power? So brothers and if any sister in forum forget every thing just read ginans and only ginans, you will find all the answers of your questions! No lie here if you do that I promise that and if you start to read the ginans then you will not regret it, its has been prooven 100% true, that is for sure.

[agakhani]

P.S.
in other words the name "light years" which are morden scientist are using now a days was mentioned in our ginans 900 years ago! by an Ismaili pir name pir Shams!
Don't you believe it then read ginans and proove me wrong.

[agakhani]

zznoor,
It is a just blessings that I born as a Muslim,
But it is a God blessings that I born as an Ismaili

[agakhani]

Mauwla Ali also said, a wise person always has something to say,

Tret,
And off course this a true event : one time Mowla Ali was walking in a path and there was a arrogant person same like you Tret was coming from other side!! Mowla Ali hid himself from that person taking exist nearby!!
The companions asked Mowla Ali: why you hid your self from a that person? when you are a dare devil, who does not hid him self from a lion, or Ibn e Wad in Khaibar even in Jang e Ohad ?
Mowla replied that is true I do not afraid from any thing in this world but I only afraid from a arrogant (ziddi ) person, that person who was coming from other side and he is a arrogant person and will not understand what we will tell him that is why I hid my self brother Tret look at your self now and compare your self with that person!! I do not see a big different from you and that arrogant person at Mowla Ali's time. i.e Imam Ali also hid him self from a arrogant and prejudice person same like you Tret ! and off course you are a arrogant and prejudice person in this forum, brother Tret!!!

[Admin]

P.S.
in other words the name "light years" which are morden scientist are using now a days was mentioned in our ginans 900 years ago! by an Ismaili pir name pir Shams!
Don't you believe it then read ginans and proove me wrong.

Knowledge should not lead you to arrogance but to humility.

If you have the reference, just put it there and stop chalenging others to find the information for you. The moto of this website is "Share the Knowledge". Please respect the concept.

[kmaherali]

According to Nizari Ismaili, the office of Hujjatship historically has been delegated to one of 4 Hujjats of proximity. Today however, our current HI occupies both offices of Imamate and Hujjatship.

Now, tell me when historically Imam of the time was both Imam as well as His Hujjat?".

According to the history compiled by Alwaez Abually the Pirs or the Hujjat of the Imam were appointed by the Imam and they were the Ahl alBayt. They were not the four Hujjats of proximity. Verse of the Ginan clearly states that the Pirs were the progeny of the Imams.

ejee aal imaam kee peer karee jaanno
jethee bhav saagar tame chhutto ek jeeyo....................15

O momins: Regard the 'Peers' as the progeny of the Imaams.
It is due to the faith in this authority that you will overcome
the difficulties of crossing over the ocean of material existence.

Historically there were several Imams who functioned as Pirs as well like the present Imam. They are Imam No 4, 5, 6, 28, 39, 40, 41, 43, 45, 48, 49.

The present Imam is the 50th Pir.

The entire geneology of the Pirs is provided in Alwaez Abu Ally's book: 'A Brief History of Ismailism.' The names also reflect those that were included in the Old Dua.

Are you referring to the Hujjat of the Imam, when you refer to Pir? or is a different Pir that you are talking about? Please elaborate. This way you can introduce me to the notion of Piratan, if my understanding is different.

The Pirs were Hujjats of the Imam. As I explained before the Imam's are the ShahPir at all times being the Mazhars of the Essence. Being the Mazhar of the Essence they are also the Mazhars of the Divine Intellects (as all existence emanates from the Essence). However the Imam may delegate the function of the Mazhar of Divine Intellect to another Ahl al-Bayt. So the Pir or the Hujjat performs the role of the Mazhar of the Divine Intellect which means providing guidance and acting intercessors.

This is your opinion, and I respect that. Again, please don't imply it to our tariqa [Nizari Ismaili]. If you do so, please provide reference. According to Qur'an, Islam and Imam [see our Constitution for details], Prophet Mohammad is the last and final Messenger of God. That's his first and primary role. He is also one of 6 Natiq who had a revelation like any other Natiqs such as Moses, Jesus. I provided you reference to an authentic and wisely accepted Hadis both by ahl-e-sunnah as well shia, that Prophet said [Mauwla] Ali is the same as Aron was to Musa. Tell me you do not believe this Hadis?

Having said that, Natiq [Prophet at His cycle, and Imam at His age] can function as Asas [Hujjat or Wasi].

As I have said on many occasions, the constitution is the zaheri document and it reflects the Zaheri aspect of our history. But there is a batini side of our history as well.

There is a Farman of MSMS which states:

"When Nabi Mohammed Mustafa departed from this world he appointed Pir Imam Hasan as his successor to carry on the work. Similarly, Murtaza Ali appointed Imam Husayn as the Imam after him." (Gujrati Farman book 'Kutchh na Farman' pages 8-9.)

So from the above the implication is that the Imam Ali was not appointed by Prophet Muhammad rather the Imamat as an institution was made manifest to the world by the Prophet at Ghadir. Hazarat Ali was the first Manifest Imam, but he was not the first Imam. He was appointed by his father Hazarat Abu Talib.

In fact the incidence of Ghadir has never been accorded that much significance in our tradition. There is no reference in the Ginans about the event. Until very recently we never observed the Idd e Ghadir. When our current Dua was first made available there was no mention of the names of the Panj tan paak. This was a later addition.

According to our Ginans, it is very clear that the Prophet was the Pir who guided his murids to the Imam:

ejee nabee mahamad bujo bhaai, to tame paamo imaam
musharak man to kaafar kaheeye, moman deel kuraan..illaahee..2

Brothers, know Prophet Muhammed, then you will attain the Imaam. Only a kaafir (infidel) has polytheistic tendencies in his/her mind(heart). But a momin's heart is enlightened by Holy Qur'aan.

Generally I do not have a high regard for the hadith literature. The names of the 6 natiqs have not been mentioned in our Ginans and hence do not have a great deal of significance in our satpanth tradition. They were not even mentioned in our Old Dua when we recited the names of Imams prior to Hazarat Ali.

The role of Prophethood was incidental to the role of his essential role of Piratan.

So I think we have to be aware of both sides of our history. As our Jamat represents a historical diversity we need to be respectful of different approaches to history.

So, during the lifetime of the Prophet, He had the rank of Natiq, and Mauwla Ali was his Wasi [As I referenced the Hadis]. After Prophet [as also re-emphasized at Ghadir-i-khum], Mawula Ali became the first Manifest Imam and occupied the rank of Natiq as Imam.

I think Tusi explains it better in the Paradise of Submission:

[§402] Every Prophet - peace be upon all of them - has had a legatee (wasi) in whom the light of the Imamate has been firmly set and established with surety, and to whom the knowledge of prophecy has been temporarily entrusted through trusteeship (istida'). The reason for this legacy is that during the period of each Prophet, the truthful Imams - may salutations ensue upon mention of them - perceived it to be in the best interests of the people to manifest themselves as legatees of that Prophet. Adam's wasl was Seth (Shith), who has been called the son of Adam. The vestiges of knowledge in which Adam was instructed by God and the illumination of those words, by means of which Adam's repentance was accepted [by God], were exclusively his. From the time of Adam that legacy has continued in the progeny of Seth, 'offspring, one of another (3: 34), and will continue to the end of the life of the world

[§411] The true Imams - may salutations ensue upon mention of them - have sometimes been called the 'son of Adam' or the 'son of Noah' or the 'son of Abraham'. They have maintained this on account of the benefits and relations they have seen to be proper. But in reality, they were neither of the lineage of these Prophets, nor of the progeny of philosophers, nor of the offspring of kings, nor of any other lineage except their own blessed and sacred one.

[mazhar]

Dear kmaherali,
Good, now you are openning.With ref. to you post addressed to Tret on Feb8,2015, you admitted,' Names of 6 NATIQS are not mentioned in Ginans., and there is no reference of GHADIR in Ginans. Ginans are devotional and sufi poetry, that's why Imam calls it wonderful tradition." With ref. to Hazrat Hassan's Piratan, how old was he when He got Piratin? You quoted a couplet of Ginan 'Allah eek khasam sabhu ka',
I have reservation on the last part of this ginan, but right now I want to define the word 'tou'.
NABI MUHAMMAD BHUJO BHAI TOU TAMEY PAMO IMAM
MUSHRIK MON TOU KAFIR KAHEIYE MOMIN DIL QURAN
Here tou word is important, tou is conditional.First you recognize Prophet Muhammad tou means then you will be able to know Imam. Km, you know well that IF or BUT can make lot of difference. For me other surprise, I have been emphasizing to understand Quran. MOMIN DIL QURAN.You have given translation,"But a momin's heartis enlightened by holy Quran." That is what my topic is Quran according to Preamble.

[Admin]

Stop changing the words of the Ginans, it is not "Tou", it is "To". The meaning is not the same.

Mazhar, please learn the language of the Ginans before attempting any translation. You do not understand the meaning of the verse and you are trying to attempt to correct people who are immersed in the ginan meaning since before you were born.

I know there are subjects that you know well and you should stick to those subject.

If you are here to degrade the status of Ginans and Pirs, you can consider that not only your posts but your account will be deleted equality.

Yes I am biased for whatever our Imam have said and whatever our Pirs have said. This is why this web site claim to be an Ismaili website. It aims to protect the Ismaili Heritage, not to destroy it. I hope this message is clear.

[mazhar]

Dear Friends,
Hazar Imam Shah Karim al Hussaini made this Farman on August17,2007 in Daressalaam, Tanzania.
" This area of the practice of our faith is an area which is highly important but which requires commitment on behalf of the jamait and guidance on behalf of the Imam.
And I want to make it clear to my spiritual chidrenthat we are, and will continueto seek out knowledge and understanding , particularily from the Quran so that my murids
can look forward to the future with interpretation which is correct. You are aware, of course that over the history of Islam,there are thousands of interpretations of the Quran for every time. For every part within the ummah, there have been interpretations of the Quran, and it is important that,as time evolves, we should continue under the guidance of Imam to seek clearity and understanding from the Quran e sharif. And I want my spiritual children to know that this is an endeavour which is being under taken on an on going
basis and that guidance will be given on a continuing basis."

[mazhar]

Dear Administration, I know the ginans well and understand the language. I posted as I under stood,THAT IS HOW ANALYSIS IS DONE, if you have better explaination challenge me and explain me, that should be nice. what ever posts bother you or your friends you are quick to delete. Why you just deleted my post, this is not justification. Why are you scared to delete my posts. I just gave you valuable information that word Imam is used in Quran 12 times with its derivatives, and aghakhani is wrong, he quoted 29 times. You deleted my post for nothing.
Please do not delete this post.