quran as mentioned in preamble

Post by **Admin** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:44 pm

You will have to accept one reality: Some people have access to documents and information they can not share in a public website or with people they have not met in Jk or in some Mijlases but which info does permeate their thinking and their posts.

Post by **Admin** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 4:52 pm

kmaherali wrote:
Admin wrote:For example, read the 1928 article by Semenov, A. in "Iran" VOLUME: II ; PAGES: pp.1-24

Is this available online anywhere?

I came across it in the early 1980s' at the McGill Library, I think. At that time Google translate did not exit

I don't recall making a copy of the article but if I find it, I will post it online here.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Tue Feb 03, 2015 11:23 pm

To aastin ka saap:Ya Ali Madad.

ADMIN PLEASE DO NOT DELETE OR CENSOR IT.

Here is the original resolution of the conference.

'The Imam to be explained as the 'Mazhar' of God, and the relationship between God and the Imam to be related to varying levels of inspiration and communication from God to man. '

it was signed by some Mr Rupani/etc and not MHI.

the words are.
1. Between God and man.( not between an ismaili and imam)./
2.VARING levels of inspiration./
3.Communication of God to Man.?
4.Why is word God written and not Allah?

Can you explain it it details in context to our Ismaili faith.
As you are confirmed Non IsmaIli to me at least.
The reply will reflect how MUCH you suspect n undermine our Hazar Imam.
A shariati Imam disliker is 10 times better than you.
You mentioned 'one from your group'.
you are the leader of the group I assume that is trying to impress Shariati
antics thru this forum from day one.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:15 am

To Aghakhani,
With ref. to your post dated Feb2, 2015, you wrote," History is full about these caliphs who were not even participated in prophet's funeral and TRIED TO KILL PROPHET. Aghakhani, are you insane, your these words are derogatory and irresponsible.There can be fatal implication of your words on Ismailis of Pakistan. They are under constant threat from Karachi to Hunza. Also your words are against pluralism which Imam advocates. You are sitting in the safe heaven of USA, where there is freedom of speach and religion, but not in Pakistan. The ground realities are different than discussions on web sites with fake names. You and your family may be safe in USA, but you have to think about Ismailis in Pakistan and other places. In Pakistan Ismailis are known as AGA KHANIS and your pet name on this web site can create lots of mis under standings.
We have gone through hell some times in Karachi, Gilgit and Chitral. Please every paricipants should be care full about derogatory remarks. Let me quote a Farman of MSMS," YOU SHOULD NOT SPEAK ILL OF OTHER RELIGIONS OR REDICULE ANY BODY."

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 2:30 am

Dear Moderator,
Once again you killed my post addressed to Nuseri. You are sitting there ready to knock down my posts. Is Nuseri your cousin? He calls me astin ka saap, you allowed him and when I addressed him respectfully Baba you deleted my posting. Or may be you disliked my posting because I demanded an apology for calling ismailis as monkeys. Do you have any justification.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 3:15 am

To Administration,
In one of my post I informed that in past 20 years thousands of Ismailis have left our Tariqa and have become sunnis. What was wrong with this statement that moderator jumped in and promptly post," Good for them, at least they are honest with them selves --------and they are better than shariaties." I do not under stand why we khojas are allergic to word shariyat. Every Ismaili in religious affairs have to pass through shariyati rituals. 3 time du'a, janaza namaz, eid namaz, juma namaz, ziarat, bheej,nikah, majalis, and tasbihat, they are all forms of shariyat. How many khojas who are so called batni, or ma'rifati, attend JK proriye at 4am early in the morning, hardly 5% of total population of khojas. We travel from zahir to batin. In the spiritual kingdom of Ismailism every one has to clear the first stage of shariat to climb ladder of marifat. If you say 3 times Du'a means you are shariyati.
PAHELI MANO SHARIYAT, TARIQAT AUR HAQIQAT
MA'RIFAT KO MON MEY MAAR, TU CHEET------
Why such ginans are allowed in JK, IF YOU PEOPLE ARE SO POWER FULL WHY DON'T ASK ITREB TO STOP SUCH GINANS.
In my all postings so far I have given proof from Ismaili printed or published literature, hardly any thing from other source. I have plenty of other material and hard copies of Ismaili soures, if I post those surely your moderators will delete. You people pass judgement, and taunt and delete, means you are not capable of dealing with opponent's discussions. You people wel come your like minded persons. Your moderators are not neutral. So far you people have deleted my 5 posts, let me see what happens to this

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:48 am

To Mazhar

I am live in Karachi and what you think we are affraid to say truth, not at all i had debate in past with Mullas about there three caliph and i M still alive. If they kill me for saying tht i have no problem with that.

You cannot say lie, banning our literature, because of the fear of some Mullas.

You said in your post
" after all 2 billion chritians believes that jesus os God"

These christians left the rope of Imamat 3000 years ago thats why they gone to the wrong direction but did you know to say JESUS IS GOD is not lie at all, there concept and understanding is wrong that body of Jesus is GOD.

according to Taalim of Ismailism JESUS CHRIST IS GOD INDEED
i know this statement is annoying for you bit i have proof , you can find JESUS CHRIST IS GOD in 3 places. ( according to ismaiism)

1) there is one firman of Imam Sultan Mohd Shah where its mentioned.
2) there are Ginans where you can find jesus is god( indirectly written )
3) there is Hadees of Prophet.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:06 am

Farman of MSMS," YOU SHOULD NOT SPEAK ILL OF OTHER RELIGIONS OR REDICULE ANY BODY."

This brother repeats lies about his own religion (Islam). All Sahabs present in medina attended funeral and performed Zanaza Salat of Prophet. He repeats lie that Quran is corrupted and ha 10 additional chapters without evidence.

I have warned many times that one should be careful in repeating rumrs and lies.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 8:15 am

There is hadeeth of Prophe "Jesus Christ is God"

Quote complete Hadith, book and page.
Unlike Farman there is no ban on posting Hadith.

agakhani · Post by **agakhani** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 9:45 am

There can be fatal implication of your words on Ismailis of Pakistan.

How? can you elaborate it in detail? it is truth brother that 3 caliphs did not participated in Prophet funeral, fyi this subject has been discussed before so if you have time then go back and read it first!

By the way I am 100% just fine no insane at all.

tret · Post by **tret** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:09 am

if we can't tolerate one another as ismailies, how are we to tolerate others communities? This is not what MHI wants us to practice, and certainly not pluralism and tolerance. MHI wants us to be respectful of other faiths, but look at us, banging on each others head, simply because of difference of opinion? We can express our point of view in a civilized manner. It's always best to gracefully differ, than to quarrel and get personal. We can share knowledge and information, that's the only purpose of these forums. A father/Mother won't be happy seeing their children fight, while preaching others to be tolerant. I hope people take note and realize that it's a public forum and anyone and everyone can come and read your comments, which not only reflect your individual values, but can also leave a good/bad impression of our faith.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 11:25 am

zznoor wrote:
There is hadeeth of Prophe "Jesus Christ is God"

Quote complete Hadith, book and page.
Unlike Farman there is no ban on posting Hadith.

I forgoted exact words of hadees, I need help from KARIM BHAI, AGAKHANI AND ADMIN BRO to know the exact words and ref.

The words of hadees are

1) Each prophet had my noor

2) Allah first created my Noor from his Noor and whole creation is created by my noor.

Here you can understand that Prophet claim to be God indirectly beacuse only creator can creat a creation. Did you get my point. I know its hard to understand it for you. So if Prophet is creator and each prophet had noor e muhmad then Isa or Musa or Adam every prophet was muhammad / creator/ bhrama/ Jamali attributes.

According to one Firman of Imam Sultan Mohd Shah.

Prophet muhammad, PROPHET ISA , pir sadardin, salman fars, pir shams ,mansoor, rumi , khusro these all and many more attain Fana Fillah.

Accordind to Ismailism the one who attain Fana with Allah( one ) becamed the one( Allah) so if Hz Isa attain Fana Fillah then He is God.

Hope you understand.

tret · Post by **tret** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 12:13 pm

ismaili103 wrote: Here you can understand that Prophet claim to be God indirectly beacuse only creator can creat a creation.

Please try and study the theory of creation from classical ismaili perspective.
The origination point is the Divine Command, which is the Essence of the Supreme God. Out of the Command, comes the Divine Intellect, which is the cause of all causes and effects. From IT [The Divine Intellect] emanates the Universal Soul. then the dense world of physical and matters.

So, if we look at this, the Creator, Creation, Created are all encompassed into the Divine Command. Universal Soul which is the creator of all individual souls, sends Prophets and Imams to humankind for guidance to actualize ITself. The ultimate goal of it is to send the Most Perfect Man, through whom the Universal attain actualization and return to its origin, that is the Divine Intellect.

So, we can clearly see in this hierarchy, that when the Imam says, HE is the creator, Imam speaks as Eternal Imam, who's the creator [This doesn't mean at all the Supreme God].

As I indicated earlier, when our Dais and Hujjats were articulating about these matters, were using the term "Bari Ta'ala" [The Supreme God] or "Khaliq" [The creator], which signifies the Universal Soul by mediation [ta'yid] of Divine Intellect.

fayaz006 · Post by **fayaz006** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:04 pm

Tret I agree with what you have posted about the classical world view of Fatimid Ismailism. However also according to our world view, true Islam will be hidden except to those who earn its knowledge. In essence man earns knowledge by the following steps, Zahir (obvious) to Batin (hidden) to Batin (innermost hidden secrets). The innermost knowledge is God's true religion that will always be protected,

So the Fatimid world view was accessible to all and therefore it was the Zahir view of Ismailism. However none of us here know the batini knowledge that existed within our Jamats in the Fatimid time. True Ismailis were given knowledge in the Imam's palace, away from other Muslims. Therefore I think it would be wise to study the Ginanic literature (atleaset the english translations) particularly since it thrived under the guidance of our Imams after the Fatimid period. The Ginanic literature is just as valid as the Fatimid Literature.

Maybe if the Ginanic literature is taken into account, it may change yours and my worldview

tret · Post by **tret** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:24 pm

Dear Fayaz - I am not advocating that we should not take Ginans into accounts, at all. I think we should study them and preserve them. Ginanic literature is [or at least has been] exclusive to our khoja jama'at. Today, we have the facility to translate them into different languages, which is great. However, besides Ginanic resources, there are others which luckily have been preserved and Jama'at can certainly benifit from it.

Classical Ismaili theology and Doctrine maybe the exoteric interpretation of faith, but it's essential for us to understand it correctly. I believe it's more than just zahiri interpretation of faith. I grant you that the batn-i-batin is always preserved [and must be preserved] and concealed and only revealed to chosen/guided ones. Shams Tabriz had the secrete treasures of God in his chest and couldn't revealed it to just anyone. So, he set quest to Damishq and found His beloved Rumi, whom he passed on this sacred secrete of God's treasure.

Reaching to higher steps of Ma'rifat, requires us to climb the ladder of Shariat [understand it fully, and not ignore it], then work our way towards higher stations.

So, to your point, what's so wrong in understanding our Doctrine? I mean is this Doctrine not valid today, because we have Ginanic literature? Ginanic text is another treasure that has been added to our resources. It doesn't mean that it must negate what we have preserved.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:28 pm

To tret:

Brother, can you plz elaborate it breifly that what did you mean by "HAZIR IMAM AS ETERNAL AND MANIFEST IMAM"

Did i understand it in that way that ETERNAL IMAM IS INDEED ALLAH who manifest as an IMAM( Manifest Imam )...so both are same and ONE.., now both of us has same understanding UNTIL you descibe it on another way.

I NEED YOUR DESCRIPTION ON THAT.

BTW my understanding of creator and creation is according to the Ginans which is same as above mentioned Hadees. According to the Ginans prophet Muhammad is Creator and Ali and Muhammad are equal and one.

You can also understand it in that way viz.

Ali has JALALI ATTRIBUTES ( Rab, Rehman etc )
And
Muhammad has JAMALI ( Khaliq, Rahim( rehmat ul aalamin)

But at the end both are ONE.

ALI NABI YAK KHUDA
HAQ SHANASI DAF-E-BALA

tret · Post by **tret** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:42 pm

When you listen to sermon of Recognition of Mauwla Ali, He refers to Himself as The Creator, The Sustainer, and other expressions as such. In this context Imam is speaking as Eternal Imam [or Nur-e-Imamate, or Nur-e-Mohammadan] Or the Divine Intellect. This is very important to realize. For other ummah who don't adhere to the notion of Imamate, this would seam blaspheme and shirk, but should we truly understand and accept the concept of Imamate as Shia, this is not at all shirk. So, Eternal Imam [Divine Intellect] is not the Supreme God/The Transcendent One, who is beyond comprehension and understanding of our human intellect.

For example, for a common man, no matter how much you describe electric current, until unless something perceivable is not proven, he may not be capable of understanding it. So, we can think of it as Electric Current vs light bulb. The only way we can observe electric is through light bulb, which manifest the trace of electric as light. Now, is it fair to conclude that light bulb [or the light which emanates fro light bulb] is truly and absolutely the electric current itself? I think you would agree that it would be wrong.

tret · Post by **tret** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 1:59 pm

ismaili103 wrote: Ali has JALALI ATTRIBUTES ( Rab, Rehman etc )
And
Muhammad has JAMALI ( Khaliq, Rahim( rehmat ul aalamin)

I explained on another thread the notion of Spiritual [Father/Mother], you may have missed it. Here's it again.

Remember in poetry terminology and language, when the author says the words, such as "Khuda" "Malik" and etc... he may not intend to mean the God the Transcendent one. Even Rumi [Not being officially an Ismaili], in his Divan says "Shams-e-mann o Khuda-e mann", which literally means [My shams My god]. but, did he truly mean the God the Transcendent? that would have been a shirk from the point of view of main stream muslims; but on the contrary, main stream muslims have immense to respect to Rumi and his works.

Imam is considered as Spiritual Father, Hujjat[aka Pir] is considered Spiritual Mother. Imam has Jalali [Masculin] attributes and Hujjat has Jamali[Feminin] attributes. Today, MHI occupies both offices of Imamate and Hujjatship, therefore, MHI is our Spiritual Parent [Spiritual Father, and Spiritual Mother]. That's why Imam gives His Paternal and Maternal blessings to His spiritual children [murid]. Also, Imam can be understood as [Universal] Intellect, and Hujjat as [Universal] Soul. And God also says that He created everything in pairs.

Farmaan is best understood from Imam's Hujjat [Pir], same as most of child's upbringing is done by mother in a family. However, the principals of a house if controlled by the Father. Father is the authoritative figure in house. the advise of the Father is best transmitted through the mother to the children. As I indicated, today MHI is occupying both offices, hence we receive directly from the Imam-e-Zaman the hidayats and guidance through no mediation. We are very lucky and in best time to receive Imam's guidance directly by His own words. This is a sign of beginning of the cycle of Resurrection [Qaim-ul-Qyiamah].

this is my understanding of Spiritual Father.

fayaz006 · Post by **fayaz006** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 5:22 pm

tret wrote:Dear Fayaz - I am not advocating that we should not take Ginans into accounts, at all. I think we should study them and preserve them. Ginanic literature is [or at least has been] exclusive to our khoja jama'at. Today, we have the facility to translate them into different languages, which is great. However, besides Ginanic resources, there are others which luckily have been preserved and Jama'at can certainly benifit from it.

Classical Ismaili theology and Doctrine maybe the exoteric interpretation of faith, but it's essential for us to understand it correctly. I believe it's more than just zahiri interpretation of faith. I grant you that the batn-i-batin is always preserved [and must be preserved] and concealed and only revealed to chosen/guided ones. Shams Tabriz had the secrete treasures of God in his chest and couldn't revealed it to just anyone. So, he set quest to Damishq and found His beloved Rumi, whom he passed on this sacred secrete of God's treasure.

Reaching to higher steps of Ma'rifat, requires us to climb the ladder of Shariat [understand it fully, and not ignore it], then work our way towards higher stations.

So, to your point, what's so wrong in understanding our Doctrine? I mean is this Doctrine not valid today, because we have Ginanic literature? Ginanic text is another treasure that has been added to our resources. It doesn't mean that it must negate what we have preserved.

Tret i agree that one must perform and understand the zahiri aspects of the faith before being able to comprehend the Batini. The point I am making is that Fatimid world view did not develop in a vacuum. It evolved from Imam Wafi Ahmad advocating that he was spreading Imamat for The Mahdi or the hidden Imam, to Imam Mohammad al Mahdi claiming that he was the Mahdi. It was also developed in a time of severe persecution of the Ismailis.

My suggestion is that maybe in the Ginans, the worldview of Supreme God to his Command to Divine Intellect, has evolved as well. Now what that world view is, would hard for any one this forum to articulate. I think that would require searching on your part.

nuseri · Post by **nuseri** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 7:56 pm

To Mazhar: Ya Ali Madad.

as for shariait word in ginan. much has written on this word by me in earlier topics,please read those.
Pir composed ginan to then audience to inspire them into true part who had not even entered shariaIt.
it is basic step n no t final there tree more upward step from you are trying to escape.
It is natural when you attract someone to a school of secular education or thoughts it would be nursery, primary,secondary n masters level.

So no need only to harp on that word.
we are all high level over here.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:04 pm

ismaili103 wrote:
zznoor wrote:
There is hadeeth of Prophe "Jesus Christ is God"

Quote complete Hadith, book and page.
Unlike Farman there is no ban on posting Hadith.
I forgoted exact words of hadees, I need help from KARIM BHAI, AGAKHANI AND ADMIN BRO to know the exact words and ref.

2) Allah first created my Noor from his Noor and whole creation is created by my noor.

Here you can understand that Prophet claim to be God indirectly beacuse only creator can creat a creation. Did you get my point. I know its hard to understand it for you.

Hope you understand.

It is fabricated hadith,
How can you understand that Prophet was god. He was human being. He was injured in battle and was bloodied. He broke his teeth.

zznoor · Post by **zznoor** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:09 pm

ismaili103 wrote:
zznoor wrote:
There is hadeeth of Prophe "Jesus Christ is God"

Quote complete Hadith, book and page.
Unlike Farman there is no ban on posting Hadith.
I forgoted exact words of hadees, I need help from KARIM BHAI, AGAKHANI AND ADMIN BRO to know the exact words and ref.

2) Allah first created my Noor from his Noor and whole creation is created by my noor.

Here you can understand that Prophet claim to be God indirectly beacuse only creator can creat a creation. Did you get my point. I know its hard to understand it for you.

Hope you understand.

It is fabricated hadith,
How can you understand that Prophet was god. He was human being. He was injured in battle and was bloodied. He broke his teeth.

Post by **Admin** » Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:47 pm

zznoor wrote: It is fabricated hadith,
How can you understand that Prophet was god. He was human being. He was injured in battle and was bloodied. He broke his teeth.

I do not believe that the Prophet was "God", a "person" can not be God. God is Light.

So who do you call prophet is important. is it the body? is it the Light inside whose "Word" you call Quran? Depending on your definition and your understanding you can be considered a Zahiri or a Batini.

When people can not see beyond the physical body, the situation is hopeless. It is like a person looking at a car and not knowing there is an engine and a driver inside to move the car else it will be just a "broken" car.

They can't see the love, the intelligence, the Light... the only thing they see is the "broken" body. They do not understand that the limitation is theirs...

So if prophet is only a "broken" body, as you suggest why follow what he says?

We Ismailis are lucky, we are able to see (at least some of us), past the physical aspect, past the "broken body". And our love and respect for the Prophet is all the more higher than any person who looks at his outside aspect.

ismaili103 · Post by **ismaili103** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:11 am

Tret bro,

You wrote Eternal Imam is Universal Intellect( AQL E QUL ).

Tret did you dont know Aql e qul is indeed Allah or Imam, who manifest as an Zahir Imam for our guidance.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:18 am

To Aghakhani,
I have objection what you quoted," 3 caliphs tried to kill prophet." What a nonsence ! What real historical proof you have? let me inform you and your backers, at time of president Zia of Pakistan in early 80's more than 100 Ismailis were killed and their properties burnt in CHITRAL because of religious rift. After wards thousands of Ismailis migrated to Karachi. Few years back and in recent past same situation created in Gigit/hunza. One religious/political party few times attacked offices of our instituions in Karachi and smashed computers and windows and damage to property. You have never been to pakistan.From India you came to safe heaven of USA and issuing Fatwas.Of course, if you give derogatory statements again, in my view you are insane, because it means you do not care for your Ismaili brothers and sisters.

mazhar · Post by **mazhar** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:43 am

To Nuseri,
Reply to your posting dated Feb4,2015;
Good Nuseri atleast you admitted that there is shariyat. It means you completed the primary course of shariyat and now you are at higher level.
My question is how many Khojas who claimed to be ma'rifati attend Jk 4am in early morning for BK bandagi? Hardly 5% of total khojas. Those so called ma'ritaries make more noise but still they are not above the shariyati level.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:04 am

tret wrote:First, Mazhar of God isn't the same as God Himself.

Please explain the difference from a practical point of view

tret wrote: Second, in the Paris Conference resolution MHI also advised and guided that the concept of God must be understood in accordance to surah Ikhlas, which we recite 3 times a day.

So when you claim that Ali is Allah, is that in accordance with surah Ikhlas, as MHI advised?

The document says:
- Absolute transendance of God
- Imam as a Mazhar of God

From the two times it implies that the Imam is the Mazhar of the Transendant God - Mazhar -i-Dhat-i-illahi.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:21 am

tret wrote:First of all, the understanding of God doesn't change in accordance to time and space. What God was during the Fatimid era, is the same God as today. So, your assertion of Ta'wil according to time, is not valid in regards to understanding of God..

MSMS has articulated the understanding of tawhid as monorelaity. That is the concept that fits into the present understanding and intellectual climate. We should adhere to it rather than looking backwards.

tret wrote: Second, the present Imam ]Shah Karim-al Hussaini] advised and guided at Paris Conference to understand God in accordance to Surah Ikhlas. That should be the most valid. It's strange that you only find reference during the time where the da'wat was in the subcontinent. Please, provide any Farmaan of current MHI to say Imam is Allah..

As I expalined that there were two things the Transcendance of God and the Mazhar of God which equates to mazhar of the Essence.
I find reference in the current Imam's statement which supersedes the references in the sub-continent if they contradict. I have provided two farmans earlier in this thread, please refer to them. They are printed farmans made in India.

tret wrote: Please provide a reference when MHI said He is Mazhari Zat-e-Illahi!!!!
Remember, when Imam says we will not look backwards, must have a context. You simply can not take just one sentence out of context to prove something that fits your convention. Provide the who context, and then backup your argument.

As I have explained before, I was a student at the IIS. MHI mentioned this to a group of scholars at a meeting. One of the scholars who was present related it to us.

The reference of not looking backwards was made in the Farman to his murids in a general deedar. It was made on 8th June 2005 in Toronto, in case you want to read the Farman.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:24 am

kmaherali wrote:MSMS has articulated the understanding of tawhid as monorelaity.

I am sorry it should be monoreality.

kmaherali · Post by **kmaherali** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:34 am

[quote="tret"]Remember in poetry terminology and language, when the author says the words, such as "Khuda" "Malik" and etc... he may not intend to mean the God the Transcendent one. Even Rumi [Not being officially an Ismaili], in his Divan says "Shams-e-mann o Khuda-e mann", which literally means [My shams My god]. but, did he truly mean the God the Transcendent? that would have been a shirk from the point of view of main stream muslims; but on the contrary, main stream muslims have immense to respect to Rumi and his works.
[quote]I Pointed out to you that in his Diwan Mowlana mentions the word infidelity. Why would he have used the word if he was not referrring to the Essence? In my opinion he used it because he was in fact commiting shirk according to the general understanding.