first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

[kmaherali]

So, please refer to Doctrine of Ta'lim, which was revitelized by Sayy'dina Baba Hassan-e-Sabah, during the era of Alamut, and reinforced by Nasir-ulldin Tusi.

If you don't adhere to the Doctrine of Ta'lim, then what's good to have a Master? by rejecting the doctrine of Ta'lim, you indirectly negate the notion of Imamate. That's the point I wanted to make. If you choose to follow Sufi order, then by all means, but ours is to follow the Ta'lim and instruction of the Imam of the time, and not speculative philosophy.

The Doctrine of Ta'lim is not the only valid doctrine on the continuity of Imamat and obedience to him. I have never denied this doctrine anyway by mentioning other elevated souls whom the 48th and 49th Imams have also alluded to.

You must also realize that the conditions have changed significantly since the doctrine was promulgated during the Alamut Period. Society has become pluralistic and we must be careful about exclusivistic ideas of the past. In his Farman made in Toronto 2005 MHI mentioned about developing new knowledge and not restricting yourselves to the knowledge of the past:

"We will not look backwards and draw only experience and learning from our history. We will develop new knowledge..."

And in his message to the Amman conference recognising the validity of other interpretations of Islam, MHI said:

In keeping with our historic tradition of ever abiding commitment to Muslim unity, we reaffirm our respect for the historical interpretation of Islam by our brother Muslims as an equally earnest endeavour to practise the faith in Allah and emulate the example of our Holy Prophet, may peace be upon him, which illuminates Muslim lives and which, Inshallah, will elevate all Muslim souls.

So, this means that even people who attains higher status, that doesn't mean that they immediately become the same as the Imam. It's not like getting using the stairs to get to the top floor of a building, and once you get to the top floor, that's it. .

Yes I agree but the Imam himself has alluded to individuals who have attained the exalted status and that is what I am pointing out.

You say people who attain higher status is like Imam
But, you disagree when I say, people who attain higher status is as Hujjat.

You tell me why it's not absurd.

I have no problem with people with the higher status to be called Hujjat within our tariqah. However I have a problem calling Rumi Hujjat of the Imam because he was not an Ismaili. Hujjat is the position within our tariqah and not for non-Ismailis. However since he had attained Fanna he became like the Imam and performed that role outside our tariqah.

So, no such thing in matters of faith to label it as "important" or "not important"..

Perhaps you misinterpretated. I never implied that there are unimportant matters within the guidance. Every aspect of the guidance is imporatnt. As MSMS said when we open our mouths heaps of pearls are scattered.

Second, if transmitting the truth was crystal clear, there wouldn't be divide between mankind, in general, between Islam in particular, and specifically between Shia and even our own ismaili community. You and I wouldn't argue today. The truth is always expressed in parables. Qur'an is full of symbolism. Truth is best explained in parable. So, teachings of Pirs has a context first of all, then they are all symbolism.

I think here we need to make a distinction between general guidance to mankind as reflected in the Holy scriptures and the guidance specific to our tariqah. Quran is for mankind whereas Ginans and qasidas are the tafsir for the Jamat. The purpose of the tafsir is to remove the inherent ambiguity in the Qur'an and provide an authoritative precise and clear interpretation. Why provide the tafsir in the first place if it is going to be as ambiguous as the Qur'an?

[mazhar]

Dear Administration,
With your Jan26, 2015 posting, I replied to you but you quickly deleted my posting. You are sitting there ready just to knock down my postings.You people have no courage or patience to hear criticism, though you are prompt in criticising others.You like your likeminded on this site. You deleted my new post' Quran as mentioned in Preamble'.
Here is my answer to your posting addressed to me. You wrote," So who appointed Badr al Jamali and Al Fadhal.Did the appointments by Imam made them right."
Now listen to my answer with patience. According to you Imam is God,my question is, How come GOD was unaware in advance of these people!! Mostly all appointments of higher posts of leadership comes directly from Imam.How come as God He is not aware of the activities of His appointees. My request is do not degrade Imam's position. Be honest do not delete this post.

[kmaherali]

Hazar Imam has given us Du'a, and it cotains words 'Allahuma bi haqqi', Just add Allahuma in front of du'a guzari in Kacchi or Gugrati, problem solved. Why we shy to add Allahuma which is already in Du'a.

Mazhar can you provide us with what the present Du'a Guzari states. What are the exact words?

I believe there is one God of universe named ALLAH.You can find word ALLAH in Nahjul balaghah, in Al kafi,in Tahzeebul ahkaam, in sermons of Mowla Ali, in sermons of Imam Baqir and Imam Ja'far Sadiq and in our Fatimi literature. .... they are or were elavated souls and achieved status of fana, but fana in whom and that is Allah. OBJECT MUST BE ONE WITH SUBJECT. When we say object and subject means they are two different entities and lower become one or merge with higher. As you have given me quotation from Memoirs, so I shall give you quotation from Memoirs too..

I agree with you that there is only one Allah. There is only one Ocean. We individuals are drops but when we become Fanna, we become the Ocean. Many drops can become the Ocean at the same time. When many individuals become the Ocean, they 'share' in the Ocean-ness, they become Allah.
Since the Imam is the Murshid, he guides us to the Ocean. If he is not the Ocean himself, how can he guide others? It is like saying "I can tell you about the destination and show you the way, but I have not been there myself." What kind of a guide would that be?

Dear Km, I know your answer in advance; it is for outsiders and not for insiders

Yes you got it right! Imam speaks differently to non-Ismailis.

[kmaherali]

How come as God He is not aware of the activities of His appointees. My request is do not degrade Imam's position. Be honest do not delete this post.

MSMS syas in the Memoirs:

In Islam the Faithful believe in Divine justice and are convinced that the solution of the great problem of predestination and free will is to be found in the compromise that God knows what man is going to do, but that man is free to do it or not.

[kmaherali]

In Islam Muhammad Mustafa, Khatimul Nabi holds highest position.
Offcours Allah is subprime.

According to Ismaili interpretation of 24:35, Light upon Light represents the chain of Imamat which has existed since creation, hence Imams are always at a higher status than the Prophet who only existed for 23 years. Remember we had the discussion about the Proof and Manifest Light which have existed even before the Prophet.

[kmaherali]

In Islam Muhammad Mustafa, Khatimul Nabi holds highest position.
Offcours Allah is subprime.

According to Ismaili interpretation of 24:35, Light upon Light represents the chain of Imamat which has existed since creation, hence Imams are always at a higher status than the Prophet who only existed for 23 years. Remember we had the discussion about the Proof and Manifest Light which have existed even before the Prophet.

[kmaherali]

In Islam Muhammad Mustafa, Khatimul Nabi holds highest position.
Offcours Allah is subprime.

According to Ismaili interpretation of 24:35, Light upon Light represents the chain of Imamat which has existed since creation, hence Imams are always at a higher status than the Prophet who only existed for 23 years. Remember we had the discussion about the Proof and Manifest Light which have existed even before the Prophet.

[kmaherali]

I am sure ahl-e-sunnah knows very well/and read the verses [that says Shams-e-mann o khuda-e-mann]. So, if it was shirk according to mainstream muslims then, is it no logner shirk now? Do you get my point?.

So are you implying that there is a general acceptance in the Umma to call a human God? I am not sure whether zznoor will agree to that!

[agakhani]

It's like you ask, if the status of mother is higher or father. You can't choose one over another. Their status are both high.

In Ismaili sect Imam's roll is much higher then Pirs and H. Mohd was our first pir so, you decide whose roll is higher then whose?

[agakhani]

Rumi, Attar, Khusraw, Al Hallaj, these are men of truth who attained higher status [according to kmaherali, they are god too].

All Human being can be a God! any soul who join in the Noor of Allah he/she converted or become God some achives this stage in their lives like Rumi, Attar and Khshru did and some after their death, if you accept this theory then Kbhai is right! and also ours great pirs too.

[tret]

Rumi, Attar, Khusraw, Al Hallaj, these are men of truth who attained higher status [according to kmaherali, they are god too].

All Human being can be a God! any soul who join in the Noor of Allah he/she converted or become God some achives this stage in their lives like Rumi, Attar and Khshru did and some after their death, if you accept this theory then Kbhai is right! and also ours great pirs too.

Then why you make a distinction of status between the Prophet and H Ali?

Are you saying Prophet didn't achieve that status?


Prophet said, Ali and I are from the same Noor. There's no higher/lower status. Prophet was the Prophet. He was occupying the station of Hujjatship. That doesn't make him Hujjat[Pir], however, He can very well function at that office.

It doesn't give anyone a reason to degrade the status of the Prophet.

Prophet is Natiq [enunciater], where as Wasi is His legatee. Prophet Mohammad was occupying the station of Hujjatship, but that doesn't restrict his role as the Prophet. That's why MHI says in the Constitution [and that's the fact too] that Spiritual authority and leadership has moved from the Prophet to H Ali.

[tret]

I am sure ahl-e-sunnah knows very well/and read the verses [that says Shams-e-mann o khuda-e-mann]. So, if it was shirk according to mainstream muslims then, is it no logner shirk now? Do you get my point?.

So are you implying that there is a general acceptance in the Umma to call a human God? I am not sure whether zznoor will agree to that!

that's what you'd like to think. I never implied that.

I said, ahl-e-sunnah today knows that when Rumi was saying "Shams-e-mann or khudai-e mann", He wasn't referring to God/Allah, but rather he was referring Shams as his Lord and Master. I guess, it depends alot on how one understand the notion of the Supreme God/The Transcendent One. Some religions believe in multitude of Divine, but Islam, as monotheist religion believes in the Oneness of God. That's the difference.

[tret]

I have no problem with people with the higher status to be called Hujjat within our tariqah. However I have a problem calling Rumi Hujjat of the Imam because he was not an Ismaili. Hujjat is the position within our tariqah and not for non-Ismailis. However since he had attained Fanna he became like the Imam and performed that role outside our tariqah.

That's absurd! You are equating Rumi to God [The Imam in your case]; but not to Hujjat [of Night]. I don't know what to tell you.

Even when people attain higher status, have degrees. The analogy of drop of water merges the ocean, is really not accurate, which is from sufi order. But, rather correct notion, as explained by our Imams, is to be identified by the Divine.

When sufi order says, drop of water merged in the ocean, it means disciple becomes Master; however, when we say someone is identified by the Divine, there's a clear distinction between disciple and the Master.

[zznoor]

In Ismaili sect Imam's roll is much higher then Pirs and H. Mohd was our first pir so, you decide whose roll is higher then whose?

There is no such thing as "Pir" in Islam.

[kmaherali]

There is no such thing as "Pir" in Islam.

As you know there are many interpretations of Islam. In esoteric Islam, the teachers or masters of various Tariqahs are also called Pirs. In Ismailism Pirs have a special technical significance. The Pir is a murid of the Imam and hence there is a distinction between the Pir and the Imam. Prophet Muhammad was the Pir in Ismaili tariqah.

[kmaherali]

That's absurd! You are equating Rumi to God [The Imam in your case]; but not to Hujjat [of Night]. I don't know what to tell you..

You seem to be in love with the word 'absurd'. I have no problem with that. As stated before Rumi was not an Ismaili and did not preach Ismailism. I don't know how he can be considered as a hujjat of the of the Night. I don't think this term is applicable to non-Ismailis.

Even when people attain higher status, have degrees. The analogy of drop of water merges the ocean, is really not accurate, which is from sufi order. But, rather correct notion, as explained by our Imams, is to be identified by the Divine...

OK the Imam said: "so that his soul should be identified with the Oneness with the Universal Unity." From a practical point of view, how is it different than "the soul should be the One with the Universal Unity."?

[tret]

So far my original question is not addressed.

Refer to the third part of our Du'a, which says "Tawasilu indal masahibi, bi mawlakum-ul hazir-ul mawjud".
So, we are to seek help from Mauwla, in difficulties. So, in that context, praying to Mauwla signify equally seeking help.

Hope this help.

[kmaherali]

I said, ahl-e-sunnah today knows that when Rumi was saying "Shams-e-mann or khudai-e mann", He wasn't referring to God/Allah, but rather he was referring Shams as his Lord and Master.

If that was what he meant then why did he use the word infidelity in his Diwan? In my opinion he used it because he was referring to Shams as God and not as his Lord and Master.

[mazhar]

Dear Tret,
With ref. to yourquote," refer to 3rd part of Du'a tawasalu indal masahib "
I am happy you looked into meaning of Du'a. Every Ismaili should do the same. Now please check the meaning of last paragraphs of parts 4 and 6.
4rth part last paragraph; Bi haqqi rusulikal Muqqaribeen, wa a'imatikal mutahireen, wa bi haqqi Mowlalna wa Imaminal--------
6th part last paragraph; Wa bihaqqi Moulana wa Imaminal hadhiril moujud
Shah Karim il hussain ir hamna wagifir lana--------
Tawasalu indal masahib---------, if I request HI to help me with a million dollars, will that be granted?

[mazhar]

Dera kmaherali,
With ref. to your post Jan27, 2015," Accordint to Ismaili interpretation of 24:35, the light upon light represnts the CHAIN OF IMAMAT which has existed since creation, hence Imams are always at a higher status than the prophet." Km you falter here, remember 'ana wa Aliyun min roorin wahid'. In a meeting with leaders HI was present and all of sudden light went off. There was dakness, volunteers run for light arrangement. Later on, a boy in our group asked volunteer for query, when there was darkness HI
BEING NOOR WAS SURROUNDING LIGHTED. He innocently replied no. HI has explained Noor as light, now what kind of this light is?
Once I wrote an article for ITREB, Karachi and quoted Rumi's this couplet,
PIDAR NOOR WA PISAR NOOR AST MASHOOR
AZ EEN OU FAHM KUN NOORUN ALA NOOR
I was summond by a top official of ITREB and he asked me to delete this couplet. I asked him why as this couplet exists in our literature and is frequently quoted in waizes.
He replied after 1975 Paris conference no more.

[tret]

That's not the right question to ask, dear Mazhar; and I think you already know that. Should you ask directly a million dollars from Allah, would it be granted? For ahle sunnah, it's hard to understand asking help other than Allah. That's because they don't accept the notion of Imamate. Imam is mushkil kusha and asking from the Imam as intercessor or Wasilla is actually preferred. The reason is because we as ismailis submit to the Imam of the time and as such asking from him is permissible. This doesn't imply at all that Imam is the Supreme God/Transcendent. Our Dais and Hujjats when articulating these notions, would make a clear distinction. In some instances the reference of Bari-Ta'ala and Khaliq, for example where Khaliq is referenced as the "Creator" and Bari-Ta'ala to The Supreme God/Transcendent.

[mazhar]

Dear tret,
With ref. to your posting," That is not the right question to ask."
Dear sir, I ask this question deliberately. You are right there is concept of
Mushkil kusha in 'indal masahib' but I consider it for spiritual upliftment and enlightenment. We humbly request Allah for rizq, money, health, peace, and what ever our wishes are, but with Imam for spiritual guidance.

[tret]

We humbly request Allah for rizq, money, health, peace, and what ever our wishes are, but with Imam for spiritual guidance.

is there any philosophy behind it? why spiritual guidance from Imam and material barakat from Allah? can you explain please?

[tret]

You are right there is concept of
Mushkil kusha in 'indal masahib' but I consider it for spiritual upliftment and enlightenment.

i understand it as seeking help from Mauwla in difficulties. in this context, there is no spiritual element; however, seeking spiritual enlightment can equally be from the intercessor.

i believe we can directly seek spiritual or material barakat from Allah or His intercessor. However, from the intercessor is preferred, as i indicated the reference to our Dua.

[kmaherali]

Dera kmaherali,
With ref. to your post Jan27, 2015," Accordint to Ismaili interpretation of 24:35, the light upon light represnts the CHAIN OF IMAMAT which has existed since creation, hence Imams are always at a higher status than the prophet." Km you falter here, remember 'ana wa Aliyun min roorin wahid'. In a meeting with leaders HI was present and all of sudden light went off. There was dakness, volunteers run for light arrangement. Later on, a boy in our group asked volunteer for query, when there was darkness HI
BEING NOOR WAS SURROUNDING LIGHTED. He innocently replied no. HI has explained Noor as light, now what kind of this light is?
Once I wrote an article for ITREB, Karachi and quoted Rumi's this couplet,
PIDAR NOOR WA PISAR NOOR AST MASHOOR
AZ EEN OU FAHM KUN NOORUN ALA NOOR
I was summond by a top official of ITREB and he asked me to delete this couplet. I asked him why as this couplet exists in our literature and is frequently quoted in waizes.
He replied after 1975 Paris conference no more.

Obviously it is not physical light. Please go to the following link on the discussion on Sura Nur.

http://www.ismaili.net/html/modules.php ... pic&t=1778

[mazhar]

Dear Tret,
With ref. to your posting dated Feb2,2015, you wrote," is there any philosophy behind it? Why spiritual guidance from Imam and material barakat from Allah? Can you explain." In reply to your post my answer is a Farman of Imam SMS, He said," 99% of my time is taken for wordly affairs of all Ismailis of the whole world. IN FACT MY WHOLE TIME SHOULD BE SPENT IN RELIGION.( Precious Pearls, 1954. Pubished by Ismailia Associasion for Pakistan.)

[tret]

Dear Tret,
With ref. to your posting dated Feb2,2015, you wrote," is there any philosophy behind it? Why spiritual guidance from Imam and material barakat from Allah? Can you explain." In reply to your post my answer is a Farman of Imam SMS, He said," 99% of my time is taken for wordly affairs of all Ismailis of the whole world. IN FACT MY WHOLE TIME SHOULD BE SPENT IN RELIGION.( Precious Pearls, 1954. Pubished by Ismailia Associasion for Pakistan.)

Thanks for the reference.

However, our current MHI has repeatedly said that His role is to interpret the faith and to improve qualities of life of human in general and Jama'at in particular. So, we see that religion as well as worldly affair is the responsibilities of the Imam. Therefore, I believe it should be just fine to seek help in religious enlightenment as well as worldly barakat from the Imam as the intercessor or wasilah. That doesn't mean one can't seek help from Allah.

[ismailignosis]

Mazhar

Two questions for you.

1. You accept the words of MHI right? In Pakistan, 1964, the Imam said that "the Jamat looks to the Imam of the Time for help in ALL matters."

On Sept 1, Bombay, MSMS said that whoever seeks the help of Mawlana Ali, the Imam used to fulfill their wishes.

Do you agree or disagree with what the above Imams say?

2. You mentioned earlier that you prefer to seek help from Allah - such as 1 million dollars. Okay, so let's assume that you make a request of Allah for some need. Can you explain to me logically, the manner in which Allah hears the prayer, then considers to fulfill the prayer, and then takes action to grant your request?

Please describe in detail - how you see Allah fulfilling your request. Do you believe Allah intervenes in the physical world when he fulfills your prayer?

I do not mean any disrespect by this. Just want to know what worldview and ideas you are coming from with your question. You say the Imam does not have the power to fulfill requests but would like to know how you think Allah operates.

[mazhar]

Dear Ismailignosis,
With ref. to," two questions for you." Let me explain, in response to Tret my question was," if I request HI to help me with a million-----------" In reply to his query, I admitted that I asked that question deliberately. Again he asked me for clearification and my opinion. I quoted a Farman of MSMS, He said," 99% of my time is taken for wordly affairs
of all Ismailis of the whole world. IN FACT, MY WHOLE TIME SHOULD BE SPENT IN RELIGION." Hence according to Farman I meant spiritual and religious guidance is the top priority of Imam. In tasbih we say Ya Ali - Ya Muhammad for spiritual up liftment, we don't say ya dollar - ya euro ( please don't be annoyed )
In reply to your other question," Can you explain to me logically, the manner in which Allah hears the prayers." We Ismailis relate our tariqa to sufism where an intercessor,wasila is must.But there is one line of tariqa in sufism which is called Owaisi tariqa related to Owais Qarni of Yemen, they believe in direct link to Allah without intercessor or wasila.
Now question arises, do Allah listen to their prayers? Yes, Allah listen to prayers of all human beings because He is Samie wa Basir. If HI is helping in wordly affairs, I do not
deny this fact, as MSMS said 99% of my time is taken for wordly affairs. Also a Farman which you quoted. Where there is Farman I do not argue. But this is also said by Imam," infact, my whole time should be spent in religion."

[kmaherali]

Dear Tret,
With ref. to your posting dated Feb2,2015, you wrote," is there any philosophy behind it? Why spiritual guidance from Imam and material barakat from Allah? Can you explain." In reply to your post my answer is a Farman of Imam SMS, He said," 99% of my time is taken for wordly affairs of all Ismailis of the whole world. IN FACT MY WHOLE TIME SHOULD BE SPENT IN RELIGION.( Precious Pearls, 1954. Pubished by Ismailia Associasion for Pakistan.)

Mazhar, can you provide the date the Farman was made and on what page of the book. I cannot find it. Thanks!