first article of preamble of Ismaili Constitution

[ismaili103]

Dear Ismaili103,
Reply to your posting dated Jan19, 2015; you have posted,I quote," Allah word never used in Quran." 103, is this your standard of knowledge!!
In Quran the word Allah is used 2697 times. Now tell me how many times you use word Allah or Allahuma in Du'a. You have quoted Farmans of SMS.Let me quote one Farman of Imam SMS, " In my 72 years of Imamat, I have changed Farmans 72 times."

YAM Mazhar

According to me Quran is not complete and ommited as well. I dont want to star this topic again because we already discuss these kind of questions in topic name " IS QURAN COMPLETE" which take around 40 pgs. So plzz dont start it again and read it from above topic.

[mazhar]

Dear Aghakhani,
You asked me the difference between Ali Sahi Allah and Aliullah.
Aghakhani, the first phrase Ali Sahi Allah, here sahi means right , correct, or truth. Aliullah literally in Arabic means Ali of Allah.
Like Rasulullah, Nabiullah, Noorullah, Waliullah, Kitabullah. These combination of words comes under the rule of Arabic grammer called Mudhaf and Mudhaf ilehi.Where one thing is related to other.
Now Rasulullah means Rasul of Allah, Noorullah means Noor of Allah, Kitabullah means Kitab of Allah ( Quran ). When we say Rasulullah means Rasul of Allah, both are different entities, Rasul is related to Allah but he is not himself Allah. Like Kitabullah, Allah's book or book of Allah, that does not make book it self Allah. Same way is Aliullah

[ismaili103]

Dear Ismaili103,
Reply to your posting dated Jan19, 2015; you have posted,I quote," Allah word never used in Quran." 103, is this your standard of knowledge!!
In Quran the word Allah is used 2697 times. Now tell me how many times you use word Allah or Allahuma in Du'a. You have quoted Farmans of SMS.Let me quote one Farman of Imam SMS, " In my 72 years of Imamat, I have changed Farmans 72 times."

I nevr hear that firman of Imam Sultan Mohd Shah. I dont know either you invent it or this firman is exsist.

Admin I need clarification from you is there is any firman which is above posted by mazhar.
According to your cheap understanding mazhar, you said Imam changed his firman 72 times which means you didnot belive in firman which I posted above in which Imam said He is God. Because according to you Imam make mistake and then Imam change his firman. Wowww it cleary shows your standard of knowledge.

First you said is there is any firman in which Imam claim that he is God but then when I provided you open Firman then you make a uturn.

[mazhar]

Dear Ismaili103,
Reply to your current post. If you do not believe in Quran it is up to you.
Read the first Article of Preamble carefully.HI has mentioned,"Islam as revealed in the holy Quran, is the final message of ALLAH to mankind."
PIR SADARDIN YARA PARHEY QURAN
BAHIR JAWEY TAKU ANDAR LANA.
You did not answer me, why you recite name of ALLAH OR ALLAHUAM in our Du'a and how many times. Do you have any answer for that. When there is no answer, order comes do not open new thread!

[ismaili103]

To tret

When you need water you say i want some water or I want water. You know the glass also comes up with water but still you say water. The truth is you need water either it comes in glass , bowl or steel glass.

When you offer some one water in glass you always say here is some water for you an illiterate person says here is glass gor you.

Now, why we says Imam is God. We know he is Body and God has no body but when you say Imam is God you are talking about the noor not body like you know there is water with glass but you still say it water when you offer it to someone.

Many confused say a glass of water and they also say Imams body has a Noor which is God.

[ismaili103]

Dear Ismaili103,
Reply to your current post. If you do not believe in Quran it is up to you.
Read the first Article of Preamble carefully.HI has mentioned,"Islam as revealed in the holy Quran, is the final message of ALLAH to mankind."
PIR SADARDIN YARA PARHEY QURAN
BAHIR JAWEY TAKU ANDAR LANA.
You did not answer me, why you recite name of ALLAH OR ALLAHUAM in our Du'a and how many times. Do you have any answer for that. When there is no answer, order comes do not open new thread!

YAM Mazhar

Yes I recite name of Allh in our Dua beacuse Dua given to us by Imam and its our responsibility to obey firamins of Imam.

pir said in Ginan

JEVO TAMARO IMAAN
TEVI SAHEBJI NI VACHA

thats why we use word Allah beacuse we live in society like this. According to above verse in Ginan, what we want mowla always give that to us, if we want Aliyullah , Mowla never argue with us he just change Ali sahi Allah to Aliyullah. But true belivers know its not the wish of Mowla to change words at all.

And yes According to me Quran is the Book for Guidance to the whole mankind. But which Quran???? According to me not that Quran which is limited in just 30 chapters and in few pages. Allah's guidance cannot be limited in just 30 chaptersgs. The true Quran( Atherved ) is firmans of Imam which comes according to time, situation and problem.

[ismailignosis]

Mazhar

The Quran tells us to call upon Him (Allah) by His Names.

Now, Allah's Names have two forms - one is the verbal and written form which exists on the tongues and on paper when we write them.

The other form of Allah's Names are the pure souls of His Servants, namely the Imams, which exist manifest in human bodies.

While the verbal and written Names of Allah can be written and then erased, the living form of Allah's Names are incorrupitible.

Going back to Imam Jafar, the Imams have said: "We are the Most Beautiful Names of Allah". They have also said: "We are the Face of Allah; We are the Hand of Allah." The Quran confirms this when it says the Prophet is the Hand of Allah in 48:10 and in two other verses, the Quran says that all Bounties (fadl) are in the Hand of Allah.

So what is the problem with saying Ya Ali, Ya Hazar Imam in a tasbih? Should we not seek Allah's Bounties from His Hands? If the Imams are the Hand of Allah, then it makes total sense to say Ya Hazar Imam. Furthermore, saying Ya Rahman or Ya Rahim is calling upon Allah by His verbal names and calling Ya Imam is calling on Allah through His Living Names.

[ismailignosis]

Mazhar

The Quran tells us to call upon Him (Allah) by His Names.

Now, Allah's Names have two forms - one is the verbal and written form which exists on the tongues and on paper when we write them.

The other form of Allah's Names are the pure souls of His Servants, namely the Imams, which exist manifest in human bodies.

While the verbal and written Names of Allah can be written and then erased, the living form of Allah's Names are incorrupitible.

Going back to Imam Jafar, the Imams have said: "We are the Most Beautiful Names of Allah". They have also said: "We are the Face of Allah; We are the Hand of Allah." The Quran confirms this when it says the Prophet is the Hand of Allah in 48:10 and in two other verses, the Quran says that all Bounties (fadl) are in the Hand of Allah.

So what is the problem with saying Ya Ali, Ya Hazar Imam in a tasbih? Should we not seek Allah's Bounties from His Hands? If the Imams are the Hand of Allah, then it makes total sense to say Ya Hazar Imam. Furthermore, saying Ya Rahman or Ya Rahim is calling upon Allah by His verbal names and calling Ya Imam is calling on Allah through His Living Names.

[ismaili103]

Ismailignosis, very beautifully said, a thumbsup for you. Hope people understand it cleary. L

[tret]

Ismailignosis, very beautifully said, a thumbsup for you. Hope people understand it cleary. L

Indeed, the explanation of ismailignosis is accurate.

But, you need to understand that there' a distinction between named and name. While you call the named only by name; however, that doesn't mean that named and name are one and the same.

[agakhani]

Thanks Mazhar for the explanation.
Now give me one more explanation
Can you give metranslation of following sentence?
This is a third sentence from Ismaili Kalima, which is as follows:
WA ashadan Amirul momneen Aliullah"
I need the translation of above sentence before I debate with you.

[nuseri]

To ismailignosis:Ya Ali madad.

ALi koun chee,ekdum saral n mithi basha maa paravo.

I wish scholars learn from you about how to put a point of strong impression in few lines.

What is your belief in the words 'Spiritual Father'?
What does it signify?

[kmaherali]

JEVO TAMARO IMAAN
TEVI SAHEBJI NI VACHA

I think the exact verse from the Ginan: SAA(M)BHALLO MOMAN VEDNEE VAAT BY PEER SADARDEEN is:

ejee chetee chaalo kaljug maa(n)he saachaa
bhaaee jevu(n) taaru(n) deel tevee saahebjeenee vaachaa....9

Proceed cautiously in the present age o true ones. Brothers, your perception of the commands of the Master will depend upon the state of your heart.

[kmaherali]

Dear Administration,
Please do not delete this posting, let readers think and reflect.
In 1964,at a gathering of Ismailia Association Karachi Hazar Imam made the following Farman;

Hazar Imam said," Yes, Farman on that was very clear from my grand father.It was not Aly Allah, it was Alyullah, which has different meaning, which means that
ALY IS FROM ALLAH. Do not confuse it.This means that the spirit of Aly and the Noor of Aly is from Allah, and this is the belief which the jamait has; this is the true
conception of Noor, so that we can look into this point, alright." ( Karachi - 1964 )

Mazhar, Thanks for sharing your research again. Do you know if this was the only statement MHI made or is it part of larger statement or was he answering a question?

In any case the Imam speaks differently to different audiences. At a much later date around 1980 he told the group of scholars at the IIS that the Imam should be understood as the Mazhar -i-Illahi (Locus of manifestation of the Divine Essence). This is the understanding that I will retain for myself and it is also consistent with the notion of ShahPir or GurNar in our tradition based on thousands of years of history.

In any case I hope that the explanation that you got from ismailignosis will satisfy you and that you will not question the wordings of our various ceremonies. Best of luck in your search for the Light.

[kmaherali]

Imam should be understood as the Mazhar -i-Illahi .

Sorry I could not edit the post. It should be Mazhar -1-dhat-Illahi.

So you are free to choose whatever fits your understanding.

[ismaili103]

JEVO TAMARO IMAAN
TEVI SAHEBJI NI VACHA

I think the exact verse from the Ginan: SAA(M)BHALLO MOMAN VEDNEE VAAT BY PEER SADARDEEN is:

ejee chetee chaalo kaljug maa(n)he saachaa
bhaaee jevu(n) taaru(n) deel tevee saahebjeenee vaachaa....9

Proceed cautiously in the present age o true ones. Brothers, your perception of the commands of the Master will depend upon the state of your heart.

Thanks karim bhai for the correction, I had listen that verse of Ginan in a waez but forget the exact words.

I think Mazhar this verse will help u to understand why MHI didnot directly say in his firman that he is God, beacuse of our Iman and level of understanding.

[kmaherali]

Well, on the one hand you consider yourself highly intellectual, and on the other hand, this is how you intepret what the Imam says?
Murshit-e-Kamel [Perfect Master] is only allowed for the Imam-e-Zaman [Exclusively from an Ismaili perspective]. Anyone who attains higher stations, can act as Murshid [NOT Murshid-e-Kamel]. Engrave it in your mind! If you believe otherwise, then it's up to you! For that reason, it would be silly.

I have never considered myself a highly intellectual. Please can you tell us which Imam said that? At least the 48th and 49th Imams have not said. Provided references, thanks

Well, this is how you imply!
I never said physical contact with the Imam is necessary. Because, people of truth don't think in terms of bodies and materials [like God in Flesh or God incarnates in body]. I gave you examples of other [non-ismailis] such as Rumi, Hafiz etc... who attained perfection..

You are incorrect consitutionally. I stated the constitution in my earlier post. Bayat to the Mursheed is absolutely necessary. Physical contact is necessary. Rumi and Hafiz had their Mursheed Kamil and attained perfection through their grace.

the interesting thing is that when I stated that Rumi was functioning as Hujjat of Night, you seemed to strongly opposed this; but on the other hand, you equate him [and other people of truth] to the Imam. I am not sure where your position is? .

I was opposed to him being called the hujjat of the Imam. But have no problems equating him to the Imam.

What about all the contributions that the sufis have made in Islamic civilizations? Should we consider them as invalid since they are not in contact with the Imam?

please show me where I implied or said that? Don't mis-interpret things that are not said or implied! Degrades your own credibility.

I implied it based on the fact that you said that others cannot ne Mursheed Kameel and hence they do not have access to perfection.I will ignore your rudeness!

But again tell me: if anyone is self realized, becomes like MHI then why do you make any distinction between MHI and others? .

MHI himself made the distinction in the Farman that I quoted earlier:
"This practice of individual search for spiritual enlightenment is generally speaking part of the Shia tradition, but it is not exclusively part of the Shia tradition. There are groups historically within Sunni Islam who have also practised, and practise today the individual search for spiritual enlightenment. But in the Ismaili tradition, in the Ismaili Tariqah, this has been there for a long, long, long, time."

I have no idea what's the connection of MHI's Farmaan to what I have ask. Please re-read what I asked. This is not the answer.[/quote] You asked me why I make that distinction and I quoted the Farman upon which I based my opinion. There is a direct connection

Okay, so if Hafiz, Hallaj, Rumi achieved that status, and according to you they are the same as the Imam. Then do you consider them God as well? Because according to you Imam is God, Rumi/Hafiz/Hallah are also equal to Imam, therefore they are also God. Is that what you believe?

Yes, as per MSMS, they became Fanna in God.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion, and that's faire; so, long as opinions remains opinion. If you utter something and is not backed up by a credible resource, that becomes your belief or opinion. If you backup your opinion, then that becomes fact.

When you say people of truth who achieved higher status is equal to Imam that is your opinion and I'd like that to remain your opinion and belief. I have no problem at all. But, if you say that's ismailis belief, then there's a problem. I hope it's clear to you now.

I have provided the Farman references, what alse can an Ismaili ask for. Our tariqah is based on a diversity of backgrounds, so do not confine yourself to a particular view point and assume that that is only the valid interpretation.

[kmaherali]

Sorry I cannot edit, but below is what it looks like.

]
But again tell me: if anyone is self realized, becomes like MHI then why do you make any distinction between MHI and others? .

MHI himself made the distinction in the Farman that I quoted earlier:
"This practice of individual search for spiritual enlightenment is generally speaking part of the Shia tradition, but it is not exclusively part of the Shia tradition. There are groups historically within Sunni Islam who have also practised, and practise today the individual search for spiritual enlightenment. But in the Ismaili tradition, in the Ismaili Tariqah, this has been there for a long, long, long, time."
I have no idea what's the connection of MHI's Farmaan to what I have ask. Please re-read what I asked. This is not the answer.

You asked me why I make that distinction and I quoted the Farman upon which I based my opinion. There is a direct connection

[zznoor]

Ismailignosis wrote

Going back to Imam Jafar, the Imams have said: "We are the Most Beautiful Names of Allah". They have also said: "We are the Face of Allah; We are the Hand of Allah." The Quran confirms this when it says the Prophet is the Hand of Allah in 48:10 and in two other verses, the Quran says that all Bounties (fadl) are in the Hand of Allah.

48:10 does not say "prophet is hand of Allah".
Here is complete Aya it's translation (Asad) and comment.
Please do not misquote Quran

48:10
Inna allatheena yubayiAAoonaka innama yubayiAAoona Allaha yadu Allahi fawqa aydeehim faman nakatha fainnama yankuthu AAala nafsihi waman awfa bima AAahada AAalayhu Allaha fasayuteehi ajran AAatheeman

Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Allah:His Hand is over their hands] [Noah:of fealty]

48:10 (Asad) Behold, all who pledge their allegiance to thee pledge their allegiance to God: the hand of God is over their hands. [8] Hence, he who breaks his oath, breaks it only to his own hurt; whereas he who remains true to what he has pledged unto God, on him will He bestow a reward supreme.

Note 8 (Quran Ref: 48:10 )
This refers, in the first instance, to the pledge of faith and allegiance (bayat ar-ridwan) which the Muslims assembled at Hudaybiyyah gave to the Prophet (see introductory note). Beyond this historical allusion, however, the above sentence implies that as one’s faith in God’s message- bearer is to all intents and purposes synonymous with a declaration of faith in God Himself, so does one’s willingness to obey God necessarily imply a willingness to obey His message-bearer. The phrase "the hand of God is over their hands" does not merely allude to the hand-clasp with which all of the Prophet’s followers affirmed their allegiance to him, but is also a metaphor for His being a witness to their pledge.

Please note: there are many Tafsirs available on net. Nowhere it says or implies that Prophet or imams are god.

[nuseri]

YA ALI MADAD.( ADMIN please do not deletes lines)

ONE ONE KARACHI GATHERING. what the first word said .was it a farman or a discussion or deliberation.( the word address n farman has very very different meaning in Ismaili context)
meetings with Imam does not mean what he said was farman.
Here is an attempt to fool manyl at all the time.
at the meeting seminars, minutes blah blah are done for audience for many other reason.
one such factor geo political reason.
certian act of tweaking to words can always happen as fort that reason JK
ARE banned in those countries.as in saudi arabia.
ALI the rise of petro dollar would happen for many deacades with one point anti shia stand starting with imam from the top.
to safe guard Ismailis n instutes bulding which happened in last 60 years is remarkable.
cycle is turning now the perto dollar will few years will be borrowers n later beggars ( aid seeking countries).
they command no respect form over 70% population of the world.
the respect of MHI is going up in full blaze.
No conclusion of any gathering or conference were put to jamaat by ANY alwaez THRU boards/etc
our obligations of body/dua ( 10 minutes) inspiration of mind( farman tasbih,ginan qasidas (35 min) and progress of soul/ ibaadat( 1 hour).
there is no place of any speeches or interview ,blah blah .
This is our tariqa as set by MHI.
our Dua is a refined sharia just taking 10% of time with verses leading to ALI n ALI only.
JUST TRYING TO get view of external events in to our blessed system
is ignorance or jealousy by some vested member.
Acts of one country from 45 years to fund madrasas with one point anti Shia doctrine n hatred has practically resulted in radical sect of Islam which over 95% of the world population hates.
They would also HAVE PRICE TO PAY. the honeymoon period may end well before 50 years from their rise in 1970.
so any act by ALI to cover the openness of past Imams in different wordings to ward off the monkeys n still have our core essence hold into it.
Like the word 'tawhid within/therin in half kalima'. etc.( fools are still scratching their heads over it)

Some cosmetic changes in external papers our published events has not changed 1% in what we do n practice in JK.

tom toming it to show one's cunning tactics is only showing one lower faith n belief standard.
WHAT IMAMAT IS WILL POSITIVELY SURPRISE THE WORLD IN NEXT 150 YEAR.
OUR TIME HAS COME WITH THE GREATEST
49TH IMAM LEADING FROM FRONT.

[tret]

What is your belief in the words 'Spiritual Father'?
What does it signify?

Imam is considered as Spiritual Father, Hujjat[aka Pir] is considered Spiritual Mother. Imam has Jalali [Masculin] attributes and Hujjat has Jamali[Feminin] attributes. Today, MHI occupies both offices of Imamate and Hujjatship, therefore, MHI is our Spiritual Parent [Spiritual Father, and Spiritual Mother]. That's why Imam gives His Paternal and Maternal blessings to His spiritual children [murid]. Also, Imam can be understood as [Universal] Intellect, and Hujjat as [Universal] Soul. And God also says that He created everything in pairs.

Farmaan is best understood from Imam's Hujjat [Pir], same as most of child's upbringing is done by mother in a family. However, the principals of a house if controlled by the Father. Father is the authoritative figure in house. the advise of the Father is best transmitted through the mother to the children. As I indicated, today MHI is occupying both offices, hence we receive directly from the Imam-e-Zaman the hidayats and guidance through no mediation. We are very lucky and in best time to receive Imam's guidance directly by His own words. This is a sign of beginning of the cycle of Resurrection [Qaim-ul-Qyiamah].

this is my understanding of Spiritual Father.

[tret]

At least the 48th and 49th Imams have not said. Provided references, thanks

Please study the Doctrine of Ta'lim. Refer to Paradise of Submission of Tusi, where he explains beautifully, why the presence of the Imam of the Time is of immense importance. Basically, what you say -- by equating anyone to the Imam -- in a way negating the Doctrine of Imamate. You eliminate the need for the Imam of the Time, and that's entirely contradictory to the Principal Doctrine of Shia Ismaili.

You are incorrect consitutionally. I stated the constitution in my earlier post. Bayat to the Mursheed is absolutely necessary. Physical contact is necessary. Rumi and Hafiz had their Mursheed Kamil and attained perfection through their grace.

I think you misunderstood me. Bayhat is necessary of couse. However physical contact is not. Do you know what "Physical Contact" means? There are Ismailis who have never seen physically Imam of their Time in their entire lifetime, and could have very well been spiritully well off.

My objection to your assetion of "Murshid-e-Kamil" is this:


This is just a repeat of what I said already. In this realm of relativity, everything we see is relative. i.e. you are a father in relation to your child[ren]; however, you are a son, in relation to your father. Same thing, Shams Tabriz could very well be Murshi-e-Kamil to Rumi, now dounbt about it, as Rumi himself says in his Diwan-e-Shams -- I believe -- "Shams-e-Mann o khuda-ee mann" Meaning My Shams, My God. However, Shams Tabriz, in relation to the Imam of the time is a Murid.

What we are talking about is The Murshid-e-Kamil who's the Murshid of Murshids. Think of it as a chain. everyone in the chain has a position or rank [hadd] and must recognize his own hadd. the end of the chain is in the hand of God. So, on the one had I agree with you that everyone can find their own "Murishid-e-Kamil", in relation to their own status [or hadd]; on the other hand, when we are talking about The Murshid-e-Kamil who is the Master of the Masters, then that's the Imam of the Time. I hope this makes things clearer.

I was opposed to him being called the hujjat of the Imam. But have no problems equating him to the Imam.

Don't you think that's absurd? I believe whoever invites or guides mankind to the right path, that's the path of Ismailis, because I believe Ismailism is the correct and right path, and any right path can be in essence ismaili path, it doesn't matter if you are officially identified as an ismaili, such as in the case of Rumi. Mind you, I provided you a reference from Rumi's own Masnavi that he indicated that he was as Ismailies.


I will not argue anymore why one doesn't [or does] become God if they attain higher status, spiritually; because obviously you and I have completely different notion of God. And I am okay with that.

[mazhar]

Dear Ismaili103,
In response to your posting dated Jan 21, 2015, 9.50pm you quoted," Yes, I recite name of Allah in our Du'a because Du'a was given by Imam and it is our responsibility to obey Farman." 103, good atleast you admitted there is name of Allah exists. Main surahs and Ayats in Du'a are from Quran for which you said is not real. You wrote I obey Farman of HI. Well our IMAMS have mentioned the importance of Quran in their Farmans from Imam Ali to Imam Karim, and Imam Karim has given us the Preamble also.
103, you taunted me with reference of Ginan; I know my Iman, LAKUM DINAKUM WA LIYA DIN. If you think Imam as God, it is up to you,I personally have nothing to do with your beliefs or any one. At all 2 billion christians believe Christ as their God good with them. One billion Hindus believe idols as their Baghwan, that is their faith. We ISMAILIS
follow and obey Imam of the time, Imam's Farmans are plain and simple.

[mazhar]

Dear Nuseri,
In respnse to your posting dated Jan 23, 2015," one Karachi gathering--"
Yes, that was Farman from my Imam and your God.

[ismaili103]

Yam Mazhar,

Thats is what I only want to hear , its matter of faith. If you called True guider/rehnuma/ al e nabi olad e ali as Imam , so my freind you are right because he is our Imam e Zaman. And I called him God, thats my belive and I know I am also right..so lets end the century old debate here and lets stick to our own faith. Its good for all of us

[ismailignosis]

Mazhar

So you have not addressed by points I posted.

As for the Prophet being the Hand of God - think about it. The Prophet's hand was over the hand of each murid when they gave Bayah. But the Quran said it was God's Hand.

Now, God is generally present everywhere and always as a witness over all things. So using that as an explanation as to why the quran says "the Hand of God is over their hands" is insufficient and redundant. The Quran does not use terms and names superfluously and for no reason.

The key part of 48:10 is that the Prophet was present in person to receive the bayah and the Quran referred to the Prophet's physical presence as the "Hand of God over their hands".

[mazhar]

Dear Ismailignosis,
In response to your postings dated Jan 22/23, 2015, I agree to disagree on few points.You quoted," Quran tells us to call upon Him ( Allah ) His names." My reply is that Quran is talking about ' Isma i Hasanah' ( beautiful names of Allah ). These are His Sifati (attributal ) names and not personal name that is 'Ismu zaat'. From Islamic point of view it is forbidden to keep any child's name Allah nor any person is allowed to be called Allah, it is SHIRK. A person can be called Sattar or Gaffar, it does not imply that he is Allah. You quoted Imam Ja'far Sadiq saying," We are the most beautiful names of Allah. We are the face of Allah. We are hands of Allah." But you did not quoted Imam Ja'far Sadiq where He said, " Nahnu babullah" we are gates to Allah. Even Prophet Muhammad called Mowla ALI as baab.( Ana madinatul ilmi wa Aliyun babuha ).
Prophet Muhammad, Mowla Ali, Imam Ja'far Sadiq never claimed to be Allah, but they are chosen ones on all creation, as Quran says,' innallah hastafa Adam wa Noah wa ale Ibrahim wa ale Imran-----' ( surah Ale Imran ). We invoke Sifati names of Allah through Noor e Imamat to emancipate our souls to return to our original abode.
Regarding your question of ' yadullahi fouq aidihm' or Wajhullah, these and other terminologies used in Quran are metaphoric. The Quran says," laisa ka bimisli shai" THERE IS NO COMPARISON OF HIM IN UNIVERSE" In Surah Ikhlas, we recite " wa lamya kulahu kufuwan Ahad", actually it is human tendency to compare one thing with another to understand it. Every Qurani Ayat/Ayats or Surah has back ground. In Ayat e ba'yat it was the event of Hudaibiah. The situation was tense and disappointing. Prophet Muhammad took ba'yat, at that time Wahi came not to disappoint, Allah's help and rehmat is with them. The analogy of hand here is in metaphoric form. We say Prophet Muhammad's Noor is Allah'a Noor, but Noor has no face, no body, nor shadow. We can not compare Prophets face literally with Allah's.
Dear gnosis, I have no problem saying Ya Ali and Ya Muhammad in tasbih. We invoke these pure names to be near to ALLAH. In one of my postings I quoted a ginan,
ALI MUHAMMAD SACHA KALMA
TIN BINA MOKSHA NAHI REY.
I believe, obey Allah, obey Rasul, and obey ullil Amr ie is Hazar Imam, ( second part of Du'a ) and follow the Farman of the Imam of time.

[nuseri]

To tret: Ya Ali Madad.
I did not understand what you wrote so many status.Confusion rather than conviction is your key strategy.
Answer needed in one or maximum three words.
Is 'Spiritual Father' status only for (a) Ismaili souls/spirit or
(b) All of humans souls/spirit .

Ismaili 103 is just 20 years old n rock solid haqiqati,if asked one word he will try to answer in one or two words.



To Mazhar:
The hand ,face n body of Ali+lah=allah is absolute reality,Quran was not send to fool the humanity.
brand name 'Allah' is not abstract or unformed or out of imagination.
which ayat says he is 'formless'?
read surah noor n my explanation on it n also baatin of Salvat in my early postings when I joined the forum.
you are very sadly caring low blessed soul in your body.
nobody only ALI can help you.In a farman of SMS said to study n understand the soul of the person
you meet or see.One can also do that my his expression in writing done by that person.I precisely do that from last 3 decades.

Ya Ali Madad:
Can anybody give me d translation done n written by Pickthall or Yusuf ali of d ayat 48:10.?
if Ayats 9 n 11 are co related than also that.

[tret]

The Prophet's hand was over the hand of each murid when they gave Bayah.

Just to add or complement. Today that "Hand" must be among people, in fact that "Hand" must be present in each era, so men can give their bay'ha. Otherwise, it would be unjust of Allah. And today it is not people's fault that they were not born during the lifetime of the Prophet to take His hand for bay'ha. That "Hand" is the Hand of the Imam of the time.

[zznoor]

48:10 is from sura Al fath
First Ayas deal with treaty of Hudabayh

[Pickthal 48:9] That ye (mankind) may believe in Allah and His messenger, and may honour Him, and may revere Him, and may glorify Him at early dawn and at the close of day.
[Yusufali 48:9] In order that ye (O men) may believe in Allah and His Messenger, that ye may assist and honour Him, and celebrate His praise morning and evening.
[Pickthal 48:10] Lo! those who swear allegiance unto thee (Muhammad), swear allegiance only unto Allah. The Hand of Allah is above their hands. So whosoever breaketh his oath, breaketh it only to his soul's hurt; while whosoever keepeth his covenant with Allah, on him will He bestow immense reward.
[Yusufali 48:10] Verily those who plight their fealty to thee do no less than plight their fealty to Allah: the Hand of Allah is over their hands: then any one who violates his oath, does so to the harm of his own soul, and any one who fulfils what he has covenanted with Allah,- Allah will soon grant him a great Reward.
[Pickthal 48:11] Those of the wandering Arabs who were left behind will tell thee: Our possessions and our households occupied us, so ask forgiveness for us! They speak with their tongues that which is not in their hearts. Say: Who can avail you aught against Allah, if He intend you hurt or intend you profit? Nay, but Allah is ever Aware of what ye do.
[Yusufali 48:11] The desert Arabs who lagged behind will say to thee: "We were engaged in (looking after) our flocks and herds, and our families: do thou then ask forgiveness for us." They say with their tongues what is not in their hearts. Say: "Who then has any power at all (to intervene) on your behalf with Allah, if His Will is to give you some loss or to give you some profit? But Allah is well acquainted with all that ye do.
[Pickthal 48:12] Nay, but ye deemed that the messenger and the believers would never return to their own folk, and that was made fairseeming in your hearts, and ye did think an evil thought, and ye were worthless folk.
[Yusufali 48:12] "Nay, ye thought that the Messenger and the Believers would never return to their families; this seemed pleasing in your hearts, and ye conceived an evil thought, for ye are a people lost (in wickedness)."
[Pickthal 48:13] And so for him who believeth not in Allah and His messenger - Lo! We have prepared a flame for disbelievers.
[Yusufali 48:13] And if any believe not in Allah and His Messenger, We have prepared, for those who reject Allah, a Blazing Fire!

48:13 warns us to believe in Allah and his last prophet. That implies that Allah's book and Prophet's authentic Sunna

Brother you do not have to ask others to do your research. There are many web site you can find translations, transliterations, word by word translations and Tafsirs by both Shia and Sunni scholars.