Farmans of MHI(1957to 2004)-----REINCARNATION & REBIRTH

[yaaaahoooo]

Guys and Gals

This thread is specific to MHI 's farmans related to reincarnation and rebirth

kindly put up any such farmans u know of related to this topic in this thread ..........

highly requested .........

[yaaaahoooo]

One can only reply to a topic so clearly specific if there is anything available in particular with them in their "Top of the Head".....from the present Imam.!!


Definately I didnt want people to quote things which r 100 years or 1000 yrs old which specifically provided knowledge to those "SET of PEOPLE "in particular for that time ......


So there are no FIRMANS FROM THE PRESENT IMAM ON REINCARNATION AND REBIRTH .................The Imam feels we are now MATURED ENOUGH to understand RUMI.....TUSI and MSMS and Pir Sadarddin and all


Rejoice one and ALL..............the IMAM THINKS THAT ISMAILIS INTHE 21ST CENTURY R INTELLECTUALLY CAPABLE OF THINKING THAT RUMI WAS NOT SPEAKING LITERALLY.............and of course those who still think that Rumi was speaking Literally are GHADEDA KHOJAS of MSMS times!!!!!!


REFLECT........GO DEEP .........and EVOLVE...........NEW UNDERSTANDING........SPIRITUAL GROWTH.........THATs REBIRTH......

[yaaaahoooo]

here comes my shooting now...............


Check MHI farman for BUK ........JAN/FEB 1970 Pakistan...........


"Those of you who are students,who are young men and women,I EXPECT you try to practice bandagi regularly.

But at times ,you will feel your heart is a rock,do not worry.The light ,the feeling of elevation of your soul is not something which you can demand ..."



1) So here comes RUMI's ...........ROCK.........in the souls stage ........

2) To all those Farmaanbardar (Ibaadati) momins.........IMAM EXPECTS that u practice BANDAGI REGULARLY............


When r u gonna start ??????.....a BIRTHDAY GIFT TO HIM..........this dec13th 2004 ?????........GO AHEAD and JUST DO IT..........

[kasamali]

On the other hand, my question is, is there any Farman or guidance of Hazar Imam wherein He has refuted rebirth?
To best of my knowledge, faith and understanding, any of the Farman of previous Imams remains applicable until it is stated differently or reversed by the Imam that follows.

[kmaherali]

In response to one of the questions asked by a group of missionaries Mowlana Sultan Muhamad Shah stated the following regarding rebirth.

"Obviously reborn means in a higher sphere than this earth. Without going to the final spiritual sphere there will be further triumph before the highest points are reached unless those highest points are reached in this world and on this earth by the general rules of the Ismaili faith beginning with kindness, gentleness, etc and going up to highest love of union with Imam."

[kandani]

"Every man and woman is
born with a soul. And when a man or a woman leaves this earth physically, when he
or she dies, his or her soul continues to exist and exists eternally. Nothing would ever
end the existence of the soul which Allah has created. Nothing will terminate the
existence of that soul."

Question: If after death the soul exists eternally....where does that soul go if its NOT purified during its life???/

[kmaherali]

In a mystical vision induced through a waking dream by an esoteric practice of a Sufi Tariqah under Late Master Sheikh Muzaffer Ozak of Istanbul, Lex Hixon (the author of the "Heart of the Quran") found himself in paradise with Prophet Muhammad. He discusses paradise, hell and the hereafter with Prophet Muhammad. He tells the Prophet "But we read in the Holy Koran that those who deny Allah will suffer in Hell eternally." To which the Prophet replies: "But you read again and again in the Holy Koran that Allah is all-compassionate and all-merciful. How could an all-compassionate Power create a realm expressly designed for beings to suffer even for an instant, much less for eternity?" The Prophet further goes on to say: "My dear friend, it is true that when a soul who has not practiced the life of loving submission to Allah reaches Paradise, it cannot bear the intense radiance here, so falls asleep again and dreams of Hell. Hellfire is simply the purifying radiance of Paradise. And all dreams, even dreams of eternal damnation, are but momentary. These dreaming souls soon awaken into Paradise, fully purified and joyously praising the All-Merciful One."

[kandani]

So...if the soul falls back "asleep"

isnt that a reincarnation?

[kmaherali]

Or it can be a temporary "lapse" in higher realms. The Imam's statement is leaning towards that.

[shamsu]

Imam Sultan Mohammed Shah has stated in his Farmans

Aa duniya jahanum cche. (This world is hell)

and

Aa duniya sapna jevi cche (This world is like a dream)


What this sufi person is saying makes sense according to Imam SMS farmans.

I think Pir Sadardeen has also stated in his ginans that if my swami resides in hell what use does heaven have for me. (I dont remember the ginan specifically).

[kmaherali]

The following is Tusi's view about resurrection of souls which seems to align with MSM's view above.

"As for resurrection of souls, this human body is like a grave for the human soul. Every soul whose inclination and yearning is towards the physical world, and which is imprisoned in the hands of the devils of lust and wrath, negligent of God's Exalted Command, has in reality died the death of ignorance. It has fallen into the grave of the dark body and has been seized by the passions of Hell.

The resurrection is the resurrection of the souls of those who have died the death of ignorance [and who are] asleep in the tombs of their bodies, darkened by internal passions. Then, when the trunpet of the Resurrection (sur-i qiyamat) is blown, i.e., when the call of the summons of the Qaim is given, may greetings be upon mention of him, they will be resurrected from the grave of the body, i.e., they will be roused and be revived by the spirit of faith.

"Answer God and His prophet, when he summons you to that which gives you life."(8:24)

Peace be with you, and praise be to God, the Lord of all worlds."

According to this view, if you are not on Siratul Mustaqueem, you are already dead here! I hope this gives perspective.

Banishing the folly of rebirth and thus beholding
Perfection's True Being - that is wisdom. -Tirukkural 36:358

[star_munir]

What do you mean by writing and of course those who still think that Rumi was speaking Literally are GHADEDA KHOJAS of MSMS times!!!!!!
This sounds very abusive.
This is same as
There were many Farmans of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah about Dasond but if I have not read any Farman of Mowlana Hazar Imam on Dasond than it not means that it is not obligatory any more.
Practices or ceremonies maay chnge from time to time but belief and concepts remains the same.

[kandani]

KMaherali,

When you mention being reborn in higher realms...what exactly do you mean?

Like reborn in higher celestial spheres? In other planets? As stars or celestial bodies?

How does that work to purify our soul?

The human being is the highest stature in the Universe, is it not?

[kmaherali]

KMaherali,

When you mention being reborn in higher realms...what exactly do you mean?

Like reborn in higher celestial spheres? In other planets? As stars or celestial bodies?

How does that work to purify our soul?

The human being is the highest stature in the Universe, is it not?

I will begin with a quote from the "Memoirs".

"Islam acknowledges the existence of angels, of great souls who have developed themselves to the highest possible planes of the human soul and higher, and who are centres of the forces which are scattered throughout the Universe"

By highest realms I mean levels of consciousness. It is in that sense that that heavens have meaning. Our experience is our perception of the world. Creation is not out there, it is how we perceive it. When Lord Krishna granted Deedar to Arjuna, he essentially raised his consciousness and hence Arjuna was able to percieve the totality of experience alluded to in Chapter 11 of Bhagavad Gita.

If one can continuously experience what Arjuna experienced, then where is the body and death. He has already died to the body here, i.e. he is living in heavens as we discuss.

[kmaherali]

KMaherali,
How does that work to purify our soul?

The human being is the highest stature in the Universe, is it not?

I am in a generous mood today. I forgot to address this one.

We often think or suppose in vanity that we can overcome our passions by our own efforts. We sometimes overlook the factor of grace which comes into play.

I will relate an anecdote which I heard in Airways JK Calgary on the night of lail tl qadr in a beautiful waez.

MHI was visiting Dhaka and he was scheduled to give Mahadan Chhanta in a mandli. There was an individual there who thought of himself as such a sinner that he could never be forgiven. He was reluctant even to go for Mahadan Chhanta thinking it useless. His wife finally convinced him to attend the ceremony. MHI was busy and he could not give Chhanta individually to everyone. He therefore stood up and told the group that he accepted the sins of the three worlds of everyone present. While he said these words, he was looking at the individual.

After the ceremony the individual felt happy that the Imam had forgiven and told his wife to wake him up for Ibaadat next morning. When the wife attempted to wake him up, she realised that he has passed away in his sleep peacefully.

Something to reflect upon.

[kandani]

That makes sense.

A beautiful anecdote.

Still doesnt answer the notion of rebirth into this world.

Personally...i believe in reincarnation into this world, until final purification.

[kmaherali]

That is as far as reason can take you. Here we are dealing with situations transcending reason. We have to trust authoritative statements in this regard.

Then offcourse personal insights and beliefs based on interpretation of the authoritative sources.

I certainly do not want to come back!

[tasbiha]

The following is Tusi's view about resurrection of souls which seems to align with MSM's view above.

"As for resurrection of souls, this human body is like a grave for the human soul. Every soul whose inclination and yearning is towards the physical world, and which is imprisoned in the hands of the devils of lust and wrath, negligent of God's Exalted Command, has in reality died the death of ignorance. It has fallen into the grave of the dark body and has been seized by the passions of Hell.

The resurrection is the resurrection of the souls of those who have died the death of ignorance [and who are] asleep in the tombs of their bodies, darkened by internal passions. Then, when the trunpet of the Resurrection (sur-i qiyamat) is blown, i.e., when the call of the summons of the Qaim is given, may greetings be upon mention of him, they will be resurrected from the grave of the body, i.e., they will be roused and be revived by the spirit of faith.

"Answer God and His prophet, when he summons you to that which gives you life."(8:24)

Peace be with you, and praise be to God, the Lord of all worlds."

According to this view, if you are not on Siratul Mustaqueem, you are already dead here! I hope this gives perspective.

Banishing the folly of rebirth and thus beholding
Perfection's True Being - that is wisdom. -Tirukkural 36:358

Please explain who was Tusi.

I used to go to the Turkish Mosque in NYC when Lex Hixon was in charge.

After he wrote a book about a Chinese Goddess, Quin-Yang, at least one Egyptian got very upset.

He wife and kids never attended the mosque, which was very warm and fuzzy and very Shi'ite.

[kmaherali]

Please explain who was Tusi.

I used to go to the Turkish Mosque in NYC when Lex Hixon was in charge.

After he wrote a book about a Chinese Goddess, Quin-Yang, at least one Egyptian got very upset.

He wife and kids never attended the mosque, which was very warm and fuzzy and very Shi'ite.

The following is the information about Tusi and his work that is about to be published by the Institute of Ismaili Studies. The information that I quoted is from the draft version of the book. It is a very interesting book and reflects the Ismaili thought during the Alamut period of its history.

Ismaili Texts and Translations Series

Al-Tusi, Nasir al-Din. The Paradise of Submission. A new Persian edition and English translation of the Rawda-yi Taslim by S J Badakhchani. (Ismaili Texts and Translations Series, 5).

Nasir al-Din Tusi, the renowned Shi‘i scholar of the thirteenth century, produced a range of writings in different fields of learning under Ismaili patronage and later under the Mongols. This is a new English translation of his Rawda-yi Taslim - the single most important Ismaili text from the Alamut period. Here the Persian and English texts are published together for the first time to produce a work of enormous value to students of Islamic theology and philosophy.

Thanks for the info about Lex. These are some of the trials and tribulations of Sufism!

[yaaaahoooo]

There were many Farmans of Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah about Dasond but if I have not read any Farman of Mowlana Hazar Imam o&shy;n Dasond than it not means that it is not obligatory any more.<BR>Practices or ceremonies maay chnge from time to time but belief and concepts remains the same.

<BR><BR><STRONG>THE TOPIC IS&nbsp; VERY CLEAR..........REINCARNATION & REBIRTH</STRONG>...[/b]

[yaaaahoooo]

I certainly do not want to come back!&nbsp;

"Obviously reborn means in a higher sphere than this earth. Without going to the final spiritual sphere there will be further triumph before the highest points are reached unless those highest points are reached in this world and o&shy;n this earth by the general rules of the Ismaili faith beginning with kindness, gentleness, etc and going up to highest love of union with Imam."

On the other hand, my question is, is there any Farman or guidance of Hazar Imam wherein He has refuted rebirth?
To best of my knowledge, faith and understanding, any of the Farman of previous Imams remains applicable until it is stated differently or reversed by the Imam that follows.

OK then show us a farman by MSMS where he says there is rebirth as in a physical sense.........

or Hazar Imams farman where he has refuted rebirth ..........

BTW ........kmaherali.......we are thinking same........

mentally undergoing a drastic change in life "rebirth" .........waking up from sleep of ignorance.........or rather getting your "veil lifted off" to enjoy that LIGHT .........

[kasamali]

OK then show us a farman by MSMS where he says there is rebirth as in a physical sense.........

There are other Farmans of ISMS in respect of rebirth, however, I give below two Farmans which are very clear in respect of the physical rebirth. These Farmans are in Gujarati and are from the book, 'Kalam e Mubin' , part-1, in Gujarati, published by Ismailia Association of India, 1950. Make your own translation.

1. Jyare Insaan thhayaa te vakhat maa nahee chetyaa, gathedaa kootraa ja rahee gayaa, lakh choraashi maa(n) padee insaan thhayaa ane maree gayaa tyaare shoo(n) haa(n)shal? Mareene pachha kootraa thhayaa temma(n) sho laabh? (Page:159,15-10-1903)

2. Tamaaraa khyaal evaa raakho ke marvaa pachhee tamaaro rooh avataar nahee leeye; tem tame jahannam ma pan na jaao. (page: 182, 2-11-1903)

[yaaaahoooo]

1. Jyare Insaan thhayaa te vakhat maa nahee chetyaa, gathedaa kootraa ja rahee gayaa, lakh choraashi maa(n) padee insaan thhayaa ane maree gayaa tyaare shoo(n) haa(n)shal? Mareene pachha kootraa thhayaa temma(n) sho laabh? (Page:159,3-11-1903)

2. Tamaaraa khyaal evaa raakho ke marvaa pachhee tamaaro rooh avataar nahee leeye; tem tame jahannam ma pan na jaao. (page: 182, 3-11-1903)

FANTASTIC

but u have to tell me as to if ismailism is "HAQIQATI" religion and if ismailism is "ESOTERIC" then does it imply that we as haqiqati and esoteric followers take literal meaning of the word "KUTRA" or should we consider the "level" of the "ruh " as nothing more than an equal to "kutra" in the spiritual world......!!!!!!!


and yes if you know anything about "thoughts", "thinking","affirmations"
,"subconsciuos mind" etc etc then they will always tell you to "THINK POSITIVE"........the second farman tells u exactly that .........if you think at the age of 10 that u r weak in maths u will come across the fact again at the age of 32 that u r weak in maths.........."unless and untill u break free from the thought of being weak in maths from your subconscoius mind itself" unless and untill u dont break free all your positive as well as negative "thought forms" these forms will keep on manifesting itself in some form or the other till u die and these r actually ur rebirth of your thought forms.......and not physical



Bandagi or Ibadat or Meditation is actually a means to reduce and clear all your "thought forms" (whether positive or negative(positive thoughts may lead you to EGO )and have ur mind as clear and clean a blank mind and then if u drop the "ISM-E-AAZAM" in that clear pond like mind of your it will lead u to getting connected to the "NUR"

If u see the first farman MSMS says insaan thaya pachhi gadheda kutra jeva rahee gayaa.........hahahahaha.........even after being insaaan ........thats clearly not physically but in the spiritual sense .....the level of the "ruh"............and if he says that "lakh chorasee maa paddee ne insaan thaya...." then why cant i take the meaning of this line as follows.......

Insaan is not perfect .........he tries to be perfect.....but many a times his deeds are so bad that he falls to the like lowest levels......worst then even animals.....even after he being physically as a human being.........from this lowest stage he gets chances in his physical life again to come up to the upper levels by the grace of GOD .......this kind of grace may not come very often and after getting this grace if he falls back agin to the level of an animal then whats the use.........

look at this farman of MSMS........dar essalaam 1899
"tamara maathi gana eva che ke jevo e ismaili mazhab maa naam rakhel che ane kahe che ke ame ismaili che pun ismaili mazhab su che ane teni khubee su che te vishe teone kai khabr nathi........tame pun aste aste sufima dil lagado sufi mazahb tarikat che pachi haqiqat maa pohochso........"


which means born as an ismaili does not make one a "instant haqiqati".......u still have to work your way up to haqiqat and then then further ......and if you reach haqiqat and then fall back to square one then whats the use.........thats what the Imam wants to say here........


my 2 cents......or shud it b pennies......


[/b] dont mind my spellings

[kasamali]

Dear Mr. Yahoo:

You wanted a Farman of ISMS, I posted two such Farmans. Well, its upto you. You are entitled to have your own interpretation. As you are aware that Farmans also can be interpreted in more than one ways. That is why others too are entitled to their opinions.

[shamsu]

I have heard that our current Imam has mentioned to leadership that Count Eboo Peerboy (now deceased) has been serving him since the time of Hazrat Aly.

[kmaherali]

I have heard that our current Imam has mentioned to leadership that Count Eboo Peerboy (now deceased) has been serving him since the time of Hazrat Aly.

There is a way of explaining this statement without reincarnation. How about an archetype of Sir Eboo at the time of Hazarat Ali and vice versa? That is, Sir Eboo was a figure who represented a unique relationship between the Imam and the service of a unique type that existed since the time of Hazarat Ali.

[yaaaahoooo]

You are entitled to have your own interpretation. As you are aware that Farmans also can be interpreted in more than one ways. That is why others too are entitled to their opinions.

Wow you took away my words..........


Exactly everybody is entitled to his interpretation.............

But I have to indeed add that inorder to b a sufi or an haqiqati we dont have to take things literally .......we have to go beyond the exoteric or the outer meanings........thats SATPANTH or ISMAILISM......

In this same farman of MSMS in dar es salaaam 1899 he say...."amaaara farmaan tamaara dil maa dhad bese che ke nahee.....ame mushkil samajee ae che.....Sabab ae che ke ame beja khayaal maa kaheye che ane tame beeja khayaaal maa samjo cho......"

[yaaaahoooo]

I have heard that our current Imam has mentioned to leadership that Count Eboo Peerboy (now deceased) has been serving him since the time of Hazrat Aly.

There is a way of explaining this statement without reincarnation. How about an archetype of Sir Eboo at the time of Hazarat Ali and vice versa? That is, Sir Eboo was a figure who represented a unique relationship between the Imam and the service of a unique type that existed since the time of Hazarat Ali.

I agree kmaherali.........thats how it shud b understood instead reincarnation..........the tiltle of Diwan may have been existing since eternity too.......and may have been conferred upon NOBLE MAN before Nabi MOHD too in batein.....

[ShamsB]

I have heard that our current Imam has mentioned to leadership that Count Eboo Peerboy (now deceased) has been serving him since the time of Hazrat Aly.

There is a way of explaining this statement without reincarnation. How about an archetype of Sir Eboo at the time of Hazarat Ali and vice versa? That is, Sir Eboo was a figure who represented a unique relationship between the Imam and the service of a unique type that existed since the time of Hazarat Ali.

I agree kmaherali.........thats how it shud b understood instead reincarnation..........the tiltle of Diwan may have been existing since eternity too.......and may have been conferred upon NOBLE MAN before Nabi MOHD too in batein.....

With the attitude you've been displaying..maybe those of us that don't agree with your interpretation of ismailism should go and form our own faith?...
part of ismailism is tolerance, understanding, patience and compassion, none of which you have displayed so far...
maybe those of us "non-sufi/literalist ismailies should go off and do our own thing...where everyone's opinions are respected and we can agree to disagree.


ShamsB

[yaaaahoooo]

maybe those of us "non-sufi/literalist ismailies should go off and do our own thing...where everyone's opinions are respected and we can agree to disagree.

ShamsB

How TRUE!!!!!!

check out this MSMS farman of 1899 at dar es salaam


"tame pun aaste aaste sufi maa dil lagaado.enathi pun uper jawano khayal raaakho. Sufi mazhab e tariqat che......pachi haqiqat maa pohochso..tame aaste aaste udwaa lagso......."


How true ........its high time that all non-sufis pull up their socks NOW.......
to be called true haqiqatis.....

One does not become a "haqiqati" by being born as an Ismaili or by loudly proclaiming in the Jk that haqiqati momino salwaat padho.........