Recently I read in one article that Islamic Namaz is stolen from Parasi prayers!!!???, (Parsi: the followers of Asho Jarthust) Actually I I have not studied it deeply yet but I thought this interesting topic may be new in Ismaili.net forum section so, I am putting it here.
In my opinion : This accusation may be true and have some weight in this accusation because THE WORD 'NAMAZ' you can not find anywhere in Quran!! then why Muslim using this 100% Persian word? The other thing Quran only tell us clear cut to perform salat three times only not five times but Muslims all over the world performing it five times same like Parsis performing 5 times! are they really follows Parsi ritual and tradition? this is my question.
so please come forward and put your comments!
Article says Muslim Namaz is "stolen" from "P
Re: Is Muslim Namaz is stolen from "PARSI" prayer?
I do not want to be subject of personal attack but this brother is bent on discrediting Islamic Salat.agakhani wrote:Recently I read in one article that Islamic Namaz is stolen from Parasi prayers!!!???, (Parsi: the followers of Asho Jarthust) Actually I I have not studied it deeply yet but I thought this interesting topic may be new in Ismaili.net forum section so, I am putting it here.
In my opinion : This accusation may be true and have some weight in this accusation because THE WORD 'NAMAZ' you can not find anywhere in Quran!! then why Muslim using this 100% Persian word? The other thing Quran only tell us clear cut to perform salat three times only not five times but Muslims all over the world performing it five times same like Parsis performing 5 times! are they really follows Parsi ritual and tradition? this is my question.
so please come forward and put your comments!
Original word for Islamic canonical prayer is Salat used in Quran in its various forms.
Iranians when they converted to Islam started using word Namaz for Salat. They also use Khuda for Allah. Khuda is also not found in Quran.
BTW many Arabic speaker draw blank when indo pak people talk Namaz or Khuda.
I do not think he will understand this. It is too easy.
Salaam
I agree with you.Admin wrote:Prophets do not replace old religions, they build upon them. They correct that which over time the human polluted from the original message of God. Prophets bring to mankind what is appropriate in their region and their time. There is nothing wrong in this inspiration.
You do not throw out baby with bath water. Even if bath water is latest and cleanest.
Namaz/salat has been discussed on this web site and most of discussion is towards heavy criticism.
You can find ton of material on net by searching for "Is Muslim Namaz stolen from stolen from 'PARSI' prayers?"
Please do not edit out above sentence. There are no external links in it and most of it is heading of thread.
Salaam
Would you use word ""Stolen" for most of Ginan material and many Rituals done at Jamaatkhana?fayaz006 wrote:Oooo agakhani I don't know about this one . Could the namaz be inspired by Persian prayers, certainly due to the geography ( Iraq Syria and Iran) are extremely close to Arabia. But I don't know about the word stolen. Any ways my two cents
Salaam
Re: Is Muslim Namaz is stolen from "PARSI" prayer?
The Qur'an that's old, outdate and wrong?agakhani wrote:The other thing Quran only tell us clear cut to perform salat three times only not five times!
How convenient for you, when you can use the Qur'an to back your ideas it's ultimate truth, but other times, it's outdated, wrong and old.
First of all our ginanic literature are not stolen because it is written by our pirs and there are many handwritten manuscripts still available, which prove that it is in original texts not stolen material like Muslim Namaz.Would you use word ""Stolen" for most of Ginan material and many Rituals done at Jamaatkhana?
Namaz/Salat is discussed many time before that is true but this topic related to Salat is totally new in this forum so, I urge every one to participate in this interesting topic and put their comments.
ZZNoor,I do not want to be subject of personal attack but this brother is bent on discrediting Islamic Salat.
You can do personal attack that is fine with me, (vaise bhi mere hatho me kab ki khujali ho rahi hai! ki mai ab tak tere bare me chup kyo bedha hu!?) but if you have read my above post carefully then you would not have to put above comments, so read it once again, to aapko mirchi nahi lagegi!
Fayaz oo6,
the accusation and the word "stolen" is not my property nor I used it to hurt anybodies feeling but it has been used by many Parsi authors. it may be true, it may be wrong so, I invited every one to put their comments in this regard. putting it in this forum does not mean I also believe that way.
Yes but where did they get idea. They studied Hindu books and wrote Ginans to convert Hindus to Ismaili religion.
First of all our ginanic literature are not stolen because it is written by our pirs and there are many handwritten manuscripts still available, which prove that it is in original texts not stolen material like Muslim Namaz.
Good luckNamaz/Salat is discussed many time before that is true but this topic related to Salat is totally new in this forum so, I urge every one to participate in this interesting topic and put their comments.
Here where many scholars and half knowledge persons makes mistakes!!! the purpose to compose Ismaili ginans as you wrote above is totally wrong! Ismaili pirs definitely studied Hindu scriptures, vedas and Puran and used many Hindu God- goddess names in ginans because they gave these names as an examples but it is totally wrong that they wrote ginans to convert Hindus in Ismaili religion. what would you say about this? Ismaili pirs also mentioned about Quran, about fasting about Namaz about Allah and about prophet!!! why these guys forget about these things and blame our pirs that they wrote Hindu names in ginans ?Yes but where did they get idea. They studied Hindu books and wrote Ginans to convert Hindus to Ismaili religion.
They got the idea because they have divine power. period.
zznoor wrote:Judgment delivered Nov. 12 1866 on the `Khoja Case' (Aga Khan Case)They got the idea because they have divine power. period.
Agakhan Bhai(2) The method of seeking to make converts by assuming to a great extent the religious stand points of the person whom they desired to convert, modestly hinting a few doubts and difficulties and then by degrees, suggesting as the only possible solution of these the peculiar tenets of their own system.
One humble request.
As a Muslim please have respect for Quran our holy book. Without solid evidence do not call it corrupted. Nearly 100 year old Farman would not suffice. Today your Murshid will not call it corrupted since his words will spread like fire. Lives of his Murids will be in danger.
Another point
I live in USA and go to Masjid.
I see indo pak person praying Namaz. I also see a Arab praying Salah/Salat.
Both pray exactly same.
4 or 3 or 2 Rakats of Fird Namaz/Salat depending it is Zohr, Asr and Isha (4) or Magrib (3) or Fajr (2).
You are free to worship your way but please do not creat unnecessary arguments. Remember whatever is posted on this site is read by others too.
BTW I do not see any point in discussing any further.
No our pirs were never told that, so don't change the track and attack our pirs but there are still many scholars who are still believing that ISLAMIC NAMAZ is stolen and copied from Parsi Namaz and some even believes that Quran was never ever revealed from Allah but prophet Mohammed (PBU) himself wrote it down and make everybody fool!!!it was copied from Tauret, Zaboor and Bible!! above words is not mine I respect Islam, Prophet (PBU) and Quran but now a days there are many groups rising up who studied quran, ayas deeply and they have started to believe what I wrote above.Did Pirs say Namaz was stolen from Parsis?
Kyo Mirchi lag jati hai?You are free to worship your way but please do not creat unnecessary arguments.
Do you think this is unnecessary arguments? it might be for you but it may be hot topics for those readers who really come to learn something new in this forum.
I respect Quran please do not drag me in this debate again.[/b]Without solid evidence do not call it corrupted.
Don't forget that western scholars are very smart then your so called Mullah and Molwis who has given Islamic ummah wrong direction in every fields in every subjects starting from Quranic ayas to Hadiths since last 1400 years but.... "enough is enough" time is changing in favor of those Islam-phobia persons now a days and coming time is for those scholars who are digging the truth, that truth which were hidden under the shadows of Mullahs so, be ready for even more bitter truth about Islam!Who gives rats Ars, except Muslims with weak Imaan, western scholars and Islamophobe.
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shiraz.virani
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
zznoor said :
I don't see any change in the pattern of your posts at all.....They say people change or their hearts tend to change after reciting the holy quran for 30 days but I'm shocked to see the pattern remains the same.
Now either you do not understand what you are reading in the holy quran or you just don't wanna listen to what holy quran has to say about salat [be it the timings of salat or the way to perform it]
Now since you mentioned hajj....How is shivling doing there in mecca ???
Ahhhh...here we go again, noor I was reading your posts before and after ramadan and I suppose you fast during ramadan.It does not make any sense to discuss Salat with sect who has abandoned Salat/Swam/haj.
I don't see any change in the pattern of your posts at all.....They say people change or their hearts tend to change after reciting the holy quran for 30 days but I'm shocked to see the pattern remains the same.
Now either you do not understand what you are reading in the holy quran or you just don't wanna listen to what holy quran has to say about salat [be it the timings of salat or the way to perform it]
Now since you mentioned hajj....How is shivling doing there in mecca ???
shiraz.virani wrote:The reason why the way to perfom salaat is not mentioned in holy quran is because there is no fixed way to do it....simple !!!
On that note, I guess this is relevant
"On an island there lived three old hermits. They were so simple that the only prayer they used was: 'We are three; Thou art Three-have mercy on us!' Great miracles were manifested during this naive prayer.
"The local bishop came to hear about the three hermits and their inadmissible prayer, and decided to visit them in order to teach them the canonical invocations. He arrived on the island, told the hermits that their heavenly petition was undignified, and taught them many of the customary prayers. The bishop then left on a boat. He saw, following the ship, a radiant light. As it approached, he discerned the three hermits, who were holding hands and running upon the waves in an effort to overtake the vessel.
"'We have forgotten the prayers you taught us,' they cried as they reached the bishop, 'and have hastened to ask you to repeat them.' The awed bishop shook his head.
"'Dear ones,' he replied humbly, 'continue to live with your old prayer!'"
BTW there are around 25 million Ismailis. You know what else is strange? Every Sunni Muslim when prays, prays for the health of our Imam. Yet most rarely if ever reflect on their prayers. O well another self righteous sunni telling us that we are not Muslims. Nothing new here ZZ, those of us from India and Pakistan have been through this several times. Its probably what pissed agakhani off and drove him to post this nonsense about salat in the first place.zznoor wrote:Siraz
as
If you do not believe in Salat then it is worthless to discuss it.
And I say except 15 m Ismaili Muslim rest of Umma believe in Salat. How strange it is.
Prayers evolve, religions evolve, they evolve no matter how hard people like zz and other mullas try to keep them static and unchanged. That is the nature of every thing physical.The Salat introduced by Prophet Mohammad must have build upon previous Salats used in that geographical region. Those who are not Muslim will label that as stealing where as those who are, would label it as inspiration. The Salat/Namaz/Dua that agakhani wrote about was used as Salat/Namaz/Dua by our ancestors who fought and died at karbala, sijin, kyber, khandaq, uhad and badr. That Salat is still used in our prayers today albeit in a different form.
That is Sunny thought!! majority Shiat along with we Ismailis believe that Imam has divine power not only this but we also believe that our pir a transformed part of Nabuwat has also divine power!! if Nabi had divine power as you wrote above then off course that divine power should come in our Pirs, no wonder why our many pirs had performed miracles using this power!!Last person to have Devine power ( that also when Allah wished) was Prophet Muhammad.
-Pir Shams sailed on paper boat, gave eye sights to his one disciple.
-Pir Hasan Kabirdin gave life to his Hindu friend
-Pir Sadardin called Ganga and Hindu pilgrimages had taken bath in holy water!!
- Pir Satgur noor forced to dance Hindu Idols and ordered Ganesh to bring water for him in Anhilwad Patan!!
- Syed Imam Shah also called Ganga in Gujarat and converted many Hindu pilgrimage in Ismaili sect!
I have big list of miracles which one I put here and which one not but the bottom line is Isamili pirs has and still have divine power if they do not then how that was possible to perform miracles?
fayaz006 wrote:zznoor wrote:Siraz
as
If you do not believe in Salat then it is worthless to discuss it.
And I say except 15 m Ismaili Muslim rest of Umma believe in Salat. How strange it is.
Why quibble. Let's call it 50 million, happy!BTW there are around 25 million Ismailis.
Let's not over reachYou know what else is strange? Every Sunni Muslim when prays, prays for the health of our Imam. Yet most rarely if ever reflect on their prayers.
Every Muslim recites Darood-e-Ibrahim in Julus of last Rakat.
And it is
ALLAHUMMA SALLI ALA MUHAMMADIW WA ALA AALI MUHAMMADIN KAMAA SALLAITA ALA IBRAHIMA WA ALA AALI IBRAHIMA INNAKA HAMIDUM MAJID. ALLAHUMMA BAARIK ALA MUHAMMADIW WA ALA AALI MUHAMMADIN KAMAA BAARAKTA ALA IBRAHIMA WA ALA AALI IBRAHIMA INNAKA HAMIDUM MAJID.
Translation
"O Allah, let Your Blessings come upon Muhammad and the family of Muhammad, as you have blessed Ibrahim and his family. Truly, You are Praiseworthy and Glorious. Allah, bless Muhammad and the family of Muhammad, as you have blessed Ibrahim and his family. Truly, You are Praiseworthy and Glorious".
Prophet passed away say 1400 years ago. He had daughters or a daughter depending on your POV. Now his progeny thru his daughter/daughters has increased to thousands. So we are not specially praying for their health but asking Allah to send blessing (if they are worthy).
I do not think Allah will bless a person of loose character, do you agree?
I do not know who is progeny of Prophet from his Daughter/Daughters side. There are many claimants and only Allah knows truth.
Mearly saying Shahada or having born/having Islamic name does not make you Complete Muslim. There other requirements. You and I might differ.O well another self righteous sunni telling us that we are not Muslims.
Well I think one should excersize control on net. By posting nonsense about Salat, fast, Ramadan and haj ( read Siraz's post) etc. one is calling " Apany Maa Ko Daakan". I am sure your Imams only 2 or 3 generation ago followed all that.Nothing new here ZZ, those of us from India and Pakistan have been through this several times. Its probably what pissed agakhani off and drove him to post this nonsense about salat in the first place.
Let me just express this;Prayers evolve,
Some say there are also no verses in Quran to tell us how to pray.
Prayer has been referred to EXPLICITLY and STRONGLY more than ninety times in Quran . In each of these verses one of the aspects of prayer is covered. Many of these verses talk about the details of prayer, like how to come prepared for prayer (ablution), prayer in travel, etc. Certainly with such a vast and strong reference from Quran , Muslims will refer to the Prophet to know the details. And you will refer to Hadith.
Now all Shia and Sunni pray 5 Salat. Shia combine Zohr-Asr and Magrib-Isha to reduce it into 3 period for connivance. But they will pray Zohr or Mgrib wait few minutes and pray Asr or Isha. Sunni can combine under some circumstances.
Now all Muslim will do Takbir, qiyam, Ruku, sujud, Julius and Salam. They all pray Fajr 2 Rakats, Zohr Asr and Isha 4 Rakats and Magrib 3 Rakats.
They all recite Sura Fateha and some other Sura or Long Aya or 3 Ayas depending on their Fique .
So there are similarity in all fique. What remains is minor details. It is easy to find and study each fiques details.
I have not seen church like benches ( except some black Muslim temples). Nor I have seen prayer leader and worshippers facing each other.
So I says they are all look like Ducks, some are pristine white, some brown, some black. They all say ritual prayers in Arabic. You may say Dua afterword in your languages.
some religions evolve, they evolve no matter how hard people like zz and other mullas try to keep them static and unchanged. That is the nature of every thing physical.
I do not believe there is earth shaking changes in Shia or Sunni Salat, fast and haj.
The Salat introduced by Prophet Mohammad must have build upon previous Salats used in that geographical region.
Only God, Aga Khani Bhai and his scholars know for sure
Those who are not Muslim will label that as stealing where as those who are, would label it as inspiration.
Br Aga Khani did.
The Salat/Namaz/Dua that agakhani wrote about was used as Salat/Namaz/Dua by our ancestors who fought and died at karbala, sijin, kyber, khandaq, uhad and badr.
I am 100% sure Imam Hussein RA and other Shodas did not lead Salat facing other worshippers and they most surely faced Kaaba. ( or Shive Ling in Shirazes lingo.)
That Salat is still used in our prayers today albeit in a different form.
No comment. Will lead to needless discussion.
Salaam brother
No comment.agakhani wrote:That is Sunny thought!! majority Shiat along with we Ismailis believe that Imam has divine power not only this but we also believe that our pir a transformed part of Nabuwat has also divine power!! if Nabi had divine power as you wrote above then off course that divine power should come in our Pirs, no wonder why our many pirs had performed miracles using this power!!Last person to have Devine power ( that also when Allah wished) was Prophet Muhammad.
-Pir Shams sailed on paper boat, gave eye sights to his one disciple.
-Pir Hasan Kabirdin gave life to his Hindu friend
-Pir Sadardin called Ganga and Hindu pilgrimages had taken bath in holy water!!
- Pir Satgur noor forced to dance Hindu Idols and ordered Ganesh to bring water for him in Anhilwad Patan!!
- Syed Imam Shah also called Ganga in Gujarat and converted many Hindu pilgrimage in Ismaili sect!
I have big list of miracles which one I put here and which one not but the bottom line is Isamili pirs has and still have divine power if they do not then how that was possible to perform miracles?
If anything is true give Allah credit.
I will challenge any sage to sail in paper boat, give eye sight to blind, give life to some body, produce water from Idols trunk, or find stolen treasures and animals.
I know a person who was on deathbed with diminished pumping of heart from Chimo. Best heart surgeon in nations no.1 hospital refused to implant heart pump since he was in bad condition from Chimo Treatment. He went to another hospital got the Implant and is still alive after 5 years with Left Ventricle Assist Device under his heart (a pump) doing most of work of circulating blood. He credits Allah for his life and also giving surgeon skills. Surgeon agrees. Of course he is thankful to Allah, doctors and Staff.
Sai Baba is also credited with many so called Miracles!!!!!. And so many dead Pirs (Ajmer for example) still doing miracles according to their worshippers. You may subscribe to it I do not.
Mearly saying Shahada or having born/having Islamic name does not make you Complete Muslim. There other requirements[/quote]
You bet zz, you bet.
Also evolution is not earth shattering, its subtle, bringing in small but significant changes over a long time. The fact that you combine prayers (for convenience) throws out the argument that prayers have to be performed at a specific time and is an example of evolution. Tret gave a good example of the bishop. People reach God in different ways. There are plenty of people from other religions that have much better ethics than you ZZ, and according to the quran that you supposedly read, they will be looked on to be of a higher status than you.
Some say there are also no verses in Quran to tell us how to pray
They all recite Sura Fateha and some other Sura or Long Aya or 3 Ayas depending on their Fique .
So there are similarity in all fique. What remains is minor details. It is easy to find and study each fiques details.
You bet zz, you bet.
Also evolution is not earth shattering, its subtle, bringing in small but significant changes over a long time. The fact that you combine prayers (for convenience) throws out the argument that prayers have to be performed at a specific time and is an example of evolution. Tret gave a good example of the bishop. People reach God in different ways. There are plenty of people from other religions that have much better ethics than you ZZ, and according to the quran that you supposedly read, they will be looked on to be of a higher status than you.
Some say there are also no verses in Quran to tell us how to pray
ZZ you should get around more, there are 72 sects of Islam. All have their own intricicies, i have known salafies to wash their entire mosque in Pakistan if they find out that a hanafi has prayed in it. BTW those are 2 of your sunni sects, so much for evolution
I tell you what why don't you tell us how the Quran tells us how to pray? I agree with Shiraz.
I have not seen church like benches ( except some black Muslim temples). Nor I have seen prayer leader and worshippers facing each other.
They all recite Sura Fateha and some other Sura or Long Aya or 3 Ayas depending on their Fique .
So there are similarity in all fique. What remains is minor details. It is easy to find and study each fiques details.
This is evolution ZZ, being an engineer, minor details matter, you should know that.
Which Ismaili thought you have not been challenged!!!??I will challenge any sage to sail in paper boat, give eye sight to blind, give life to some body, produce water from Idols trunk, or find stolen treasures and animals.
You are narrow minded person you do not have much knowledge nor you tried to learn any thing else besides challenging and criticizing Ismailis.
FYI:-Even in this modern time there are many normal person like you and me ( yogis) can do this kind miracles but forget about these yogis and sages but this kind miracles we Ismailis did in past and history is witness about this, and who knows? there may be some Ismailis who have progressed themselves in Bandgi can still do this kind miracles!!
DO YOU KNOW THAT? THE "MOON SPLITTING MIRACLE" BY PROPHET MOHAMMED (PBU) ALSO CHALLENGED, CRITICIZED AND NOT BELIEVED BY MANY MUSLIMS ??!!!!! and there are many who still not believe this in this time!!
Do you believe it?-
shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
agakhani wrote:First learn to give credit to Allah SWT. It is HE who gives life and it is HE who takes it away. And HE creates miracles.DO YOU KNOW THAT? THE "MOON SPLITTING MIRACLE" BY PROPHET MOHAMMED (PBU) ALSO CHALLENGED, CRITICIZED AND NOT BELIEVED BY MANY MUSLIMS ??!!!!! and there are many who still not believe this in this time!!
Uski Marzi ke bagair BHUNA PAPAD bhi nahi tutega.
Pirs do not fly, worshipful Murids give them imaginary wings. Creat stories.
This world is full of phonies.
Trust no one except Supreme Being.
Mine, I call Allah SWT.
Who is yours?
Ali, MHI, Pirs?
As long as I concern then let me answer it one more time here that "ALI SAHI ALLAH" for me, I do not know about others! but didn't we discussed this topic in detail little over then month ago?? seems that you have forgetting habit so, take an appointment ASAP before it worsen or go out of controlWho is yours?
Ali, MHI, Pirs?
FYI:- Since Allah do not have any shape not Allah himself come and guide us therefore Allah has appointed H. Ali as prophet Mohd successor we Ismailis have belief that there should be two person present all the time one as a Imam and other as a pir.
These two persons must have to have be present all the time on the universe if Imam disappears like other sect believes ( Imam Mehndi ) then this universe destroys, this is Ismaili belief.