Tret,
Allah say in quran that he made camel and horses for your ride! He is not talking about car or plane? Are Allah was blind? Did not he knows that people will invent car. Planes and more? Do she or you go Boston down town riding on camel?
did not I told you that quran is this and quran is that? Do you want me repeat it again?
Best way for you is just keep your ..... Unless you have sold your self respect and I know that you did it!
cuz a person considers him self as an Ismaili but does not believe in farmans and find out mistakes in farmans!. Now it our turn to proove you wrong. Last chance
Ab to sudhar ja itni thokre khane ke bad? ZZNoor ke double chamche! Varna?
A Balance of Struggle Between Zahiri & Batini
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
Agakhani bhai said :
Agakhani bhai, what is it that tret said you didn't like ???....In his last post I did not see him saying anything against our beloved prophet[saw] or any imams or firkah, then why are you so mad against him ???Tret,
Allah say in quran that he made camel and horses for your ride! He is not talking about car or plane? Are Allah was blind? Did not he knows that people will invent car. Planes and more? Do she or you go Boston down town riding on camel?
did not I told you that quran is this and quran is that? Do you want me repeat it again?
Best way for you is just keep your ..... Unless you have sold your self respect and I know that you did it!
cuz a person considers him self as an Ismaili but does not believe in farmans and find out mistakes in farmans!. Now it our turn to proove you wrong. Last chance
Ab to sudhar ja itni thokre khane ke bad? ZZNoor ke double chamche! Varna?
old habits, lol...shiraz.virani wrote: Agakhani bhai, what is it that tret said you didn't like ???....In his last post I did not see him saying anything against our beloved prophet[saw] or any imams or firkah, then why are you so mad against him ???
honestly, I don't really care what he says and doesn't bother me even one bit. I respect his opinion I still consider him as spiritual brother, but I don't let his comments bother me. Let him say what he wishes, and I still wish him well.
Maula Ali says not to look who speaks, but listen what is said. In other words if something good is mentioned, we shouldn't care who says it, we should benefit from it. Unfortunately, this is not the case with this individual. He first looks who's post is it, and then based on his personal preferences he makes a comment. But that's totally fine with me. This is an open forum and everyone's welcome to express their opinion and reflect their personality and knowledge [or lack of personality and lack of knowledge].
We can argue till hell freezes about 3 or 5 Salat in Quran.Shiraz
Noor, You know and I know that there are only and only 3 salaats mentioned in holy quran with their name and I think I told you this the last time, they are
But what about this
Why did Hz Ali issued this Fatwa?
Didn't he know there were only 3 mentioned in Quran?
There were no Shia Sunni division at that time
4 fiques were not born yet.
This is from Hazrat Ali in Nahjul Balagha
Letter 52
A circular about prayers to the governors of all the provinces
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lead the Zuhr prayer till the shadow of a wall becomes equal to the height of the wall, the Asr prayers can be performed till the sun is still bright and enough time of the day is left for a person to cover a distance of six miles. The Maghrib prayers should be performed when people break their fasts and when Hajj pilgrims return from Arafat. And the time for Isha prayers is when the red glow of the even twilight disappears from the West, till one-third of the night is still left. The morning(Fajr) prayers are to be performed when there appears enough light of the dawn for a man to recognize the face of his companion.
While leading the prayers make them so short that the weakest among you may not feel tired to follow you and his strength and patience may not be over strained.
BTW brother
We can keep arguing about it for ever. Let's move on
In.Shiraz,
I, was talking about his over all posts and specially that post he backing to ZZNoor for her trash talk.
The other reason I do not like him because he considers himself clever and smarter person in this forum and other readers are dumb . ( You also noted this many time ) and therefore he finds mistakes in every other posts, in ginans and even in MHI" Farman!! I do not consider him as an Ismaili because of this I.e. who finds mistakes and does not even believes the farmans, He is 'Abu Jahal' of this period.
You know who was Abu Jahal during prophet time? If you don"t then ...... Who else but
Tret!
Whether you care or not it doesn't matter to me either but whenever I find your any inappropriate posts on Ginan, farmans and our great tradition and ritual of Indo-Paki culture then you can not hide from me, that is for sure so, damn keep your mouth shut.
I, was talking about his over all posts and specially that post he backing to ZZNoor for her trash talk.
The other reason I do not like him because he considers himself clever and smarter person in this forum and other readers are dumb . ( You also noted this many time ) and therefore he finds mistakes in every other posts, in ginans and even in MHI" Farman!! I do not consider him as an Ismaili because of this I.e. who finds mistakes and does not even believes the farmans, He is 'Abu Jahal' of this period.
You know who was Abu Jahal during prophet time? If you don"t then ...... Who else but
Tret!
Whether you care or not it doesn't matter to me either but whenever I find your any inappropriate posts on Ginan, farmans and our great tradition and ritual of Indo-Paki culture then you can not hide from me, that is for sure so, damn keep your mouth shut.
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
zznoor said :
And it is really funny that you gave us an example of what imam ali[as] used to do some 1300 years ago....Islam at that time was in an infant stage....no ?? Lets look at our own body, we grow as the time passes, right ?? Same thing with islam !!!....The interpretation of imam ali[as] that was given some 1000 years ago evolved in the same fashion your body evolved from infant[shariah] to child [tariqah] to teen [haqiqah] to an adult [marifah].
Ismailis understand this fact because they are lucky to have a living imam to guide them.
I gave you the most easiest example of all...take it or leave it the choice is yours.
Sister, I did not wanna argue on this infact it was you who asked me the question...Now allow me.We can argue till hell freezes about 3 or 5 Salat in Quran.
But what about this
Why did Hz Ali issued this Fatwa?
Didn't he know there were only 3 mentioned in Quran?
There were no Shia Sunni division at that time
4 fiques were not born yet.
This is from Hazrat Ali in Nahjul Balagha
Letter 52
A circular about prayers to the governors of all the provinces
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lead the Zuhr prayer till the shadow of a wall becomes equal to the height of the wall, the Asr prayers can be performed till the sun is still bright and enough time of the day is left for a person to cover a distance of six miles. The Maghrib prayers should be performed when people break their fasts and when Hajj pilgrims return from Arafat. And the time for Isha prayers is when the red glow of the even twilight disappears from the West, till one-third of the night is still left. The morning(Fajr) prayers are to be performed when there appears enough light of the dawn for a man to recognize the face of his companion.
While leading the prayers make them so short that the weakest among you may not feel tired to follow you and his strength and patience may not be over strained.
BTW brother
We can keep arguing about it for ever. Let's move on
And it is really funny that you gave us an example of what imam ali[as] used to do some 1300 years ago....Islam at that time was in an infant stage....no ?? Lets look at our own body, we grow as the time passes, right ?? Same thing with islam !!!....The interpretation of imam ali[as] that was given some 1000 years ago evolved in the same fashion your body evolved from infant[shariah] to child [tariqah] to teen [haqiqah] to an adult [marifah].
Ismailis understand this fact because they are lucky to have a living imam to guide them.
I gave you the most easiest example of all...take it or leave it the choice is yours.
Our current imam does not says or insist us to pray five times namaz so. Simple and easy answer is that is why we perform three times dua.period so
Do not ask this silly question again and again and forget about how many times H.Ali and our first five imams were preforming their namaz,we Ismaili just follow what our current imams say we are not follows what other imams told befpre.
Further more,
If you ask any kinder garten Ismaili students : what you have to do about your murshid farman then he will definitely say just follows what he says but not follow what he is doing, is not the easy answer to keep your mouth shut ZZNoor?
Do not ask this silly question again and again and forget about how many times H.Ali and our first five imams were preforming their namaz,we Ismaili just follow what our current imams say we are not follows what other imams told befpre.
Further more,
If you ask any kinder garten Ismaili students : what you have to do about your murshid farman then he will definitely say just follows what he says but not follow what he is doing, is not the easy answer to keep your mouth shut ZZNoor?
Brother ShirazThe interpretation of imam ali[as] that was given some 1000 years ago evolved in the same fashion your body evolved from infant[shariah] to child [tariqah] to teen [haqiqah] to an adult [marifah].
Tariqa, Hiqigah and Marifa are man invented. There is no such thing for Muslims in Allah's book.
Until next Prophet comes, true Muslims are not going to change Allah's Hukum.
And
There will be no Prophet After Muhammad.
BTW why MHI wants uniform Namaaz and what prevents him from doing it?
I bet it will be same
No additional 10 Suras of Quran by SMS Rh A and no uniform Namaz by MHI (yet).
There is a story attributed to various saints.just follows what he says but not follow what he is doing, is not the easy answer to keep your mouth shut ZZNoor?
A mother came to saint pleading him to advise her son not to eat too much Sugar.
Saint said please come back in month I will comply.
After a month saint advised the child and child listened.
Mother asked why did his holiness waited for month.
Said answered " I myself was eating too much Sugar, I stopped doing it and it worked. Before it would have not worked.
Let's be civilized. And not issue taqfeer. We have no right.
These are sufi concepts, which is a tariqah of sunni. Rumi, Hafiz, Attar are just few to name who followed these school of thoughts and all their works are rooted into these concept of Mahrifah.zznoor wrote: Brother Shiraz
Tariqa, Hiqigah and Marifa are man invented. There is no such thing for Muslims in Allah's book.
I guess there a reason why you are on an orthodox and literal [zahiri] path and we are on a batini path. these two shall never meet, until unless you change your perception about the whole universe. I mean do you not wonder that there's a deeper meaning to all this? There's no purpose in prayer, fast, hajj, and etc...? If there was no purpose, then practicing all of it would be pointless.
Prophet Muhammad says an hour of contemplation is better than 100 prayers. Try and understand this, you'll get your answer.
@tret
Little do these unscrupulous and self-made leaders of misguided sects understand what severe penalty and punishment awaits them for their evil deeds!
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 2 Surah Al-Baqarah verse 174:
Indeed those, who conceal the commands that Allah has sent down in His Book and barter them away for paltry worldly gains, fill their bellies with fire. Allah will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He regard them as pure and there is a painful torment for them!
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 2 Surah Baqarah verse 159:
Those who conceal the clear (Revelations) and Guidance We have sent down, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book, on them shall be Allah’s ‘laanah’ and the ‘laanah’ of those who are entitled to curse!
If one sincerely wants to learn and seek the Ilm-ul-Haqiqat or Knowledge of Truth, then one should know that Truth is only and only what is declared by Allah and His Messenger (saws). If any knowledge is not in alignment with the guidance of the Quran and Sunnah, then Allah is witness, it is guaranteed falsehood!
Thus the only ammunition one needs to confront the unscrupulous and evil scholars who propagate and segregate and divide knowledge into Haqiqat, and Zaahir, and Baatin, and Ladooni, etc. is to arm oneself with the understanding of the Quran and the Sunnah! Allah Subhanah is witness, every type of knowledge will be absolutely humiliated and defeated when it is confronted with the Knowledge of the Quran and the Sunnah.
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 17 Surah Israa verse 81: And say: "Truth has (now) arrived and falsehood perished: for falsehood is (by its very nature) bound to perish."
from Islamhelpline.com
Little do these unscrupulous and self-made leaders of misguided sects understand what severe penalty and punishment awaits them for their evil deeds!
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 2 Surah Al-Baqarah verse 174:
Indeed those, who conceal the commands that Allah has sent down in His Book and barter them away for paltry worldly gains, fill their bellies with fire. Allah will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He regard them as pure and there is a painful torment for them!
Allah says in the Holy Quran Chapter 2 Surah Baqarah verse 159:
Those who conceal the clear (Revelations) and Guidance We have sent down, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book, on them shall be Allah’s ‘laanah’ and the ‘laanah’ of those who are entitled to curse!
If one sincerely wants to learn and seek the Ilm-ul-Haqiqat or Knowledge of Truth, then one should know that Truth is only and only what is declared by Allah and His Messenger (saws). If any knowledge is not in alignment with the guidance of the Quran and Sunnah, then Allah is witness, it is guaranteed falsehood!
Thus the only ammunition one needs to confront the unscrupulous and evil scholars who propagate and segregate and divide knowledge into Haqiqat, and Zaahir, and Baatin, and Ladooni, etc. is to arm oneself with the understanding of the Quran and the Sunnah! Allah Subhanah is witness, every type of knowledge will be absolutely humiliated and defeated when it is confronted with the Knowledge of the Quran and the Sunnah.
Allah Says in the Holy Quran Chapter 17 Surah Israa verse 81: And say: "Truth has (now) arrived and falsehood perished: for falsehood is (by its very nature) bound to perish."
from Islamhelpline.com
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
zznoor said :
So then why pick and choose here ???
If and even if the imam of the time do come up with the other 10 supposedly missing surah's you zznoor will accept it ??...Will you ??? no !!!
you will be the 1st person to mock our imam just like you always do. Then why ask something that your mouth can't chew and stomach which you cannot digest ???
There are other things that are man made as well like 5 times namaz, throwing of stones @ devil who is supposedly captured inside the house of allah[swt] and so on.Brother Shiraz
Tariqa, Hiqigah and Marifa are man invented. There is no such thing for Muslims in Allah's book.
Until next Prophet comes, true Muslims are not going to change Allah's Hukum.
And
There will be no Prophet After Muhammad.
So then why pick and choose here ???
Noor, you have asked the same question I think more than 10 times in the past and mine is gonna be the 11th time, so here it is :BTW why MHI wants uniform Namaaz and what prevents him from doing it?
I bet it will be same
No additional 10 Suras of Quran by SMS Rh A and no uniform Namaz by MHI (yet).
If and even if the imam of the time do come up with the other 10 supposedly missing surah's you zznoor will accept it ??...Will you ??? no !!!
you will be the 1st person to mock our imam just like you always do. Then why ask something that your mouth can't chew and stomach which you cannot digest ???
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
Agakhani bhai said :
Agakhani bhai, disrespecting your own spiritual brother is not who we are....I know sometimes he may sound rude...well sometimes even I'am rude and same goes with you but that doesn't mean we should start abusing our own brothers and sisters.
We Ismailis are respected in all parts of the world not just because of our imams[as] and charity but also because of our tolerance towards others....We all should always remember this !!!
In.Shiraz,
I, was talking about his over all posts and specially that post he backing to ZZNoor for her trash talk.
The other reason I do not like him because he considers himself clever and smarter person in this forum and other readers are dumb . ( You also noted this many time ) and therefore he finds mistakes in every other posts, in ginans and even in MHI" Farman!! I do not consider him as an Ismaili because of this I.e. who finds mistakes and does not even believes the farmans, He is 'Abu Jahal' of this period.
You know who was Abu Jahal during prophet time? If you don"t then ...... Who else but
Tret!
Whether you care or not it doesn't matter to me either but whenever I find your any inappropriate posts on Ginan, farmans and our great tradition and ritual of Indo-Paki culture then you can not hide from me, that is for sure so, damn keep your mouth shut.
Agakhani bhai, disrespecting your own spiritual brother is not who we are....I know sometimes he may sound rude...well sometimes even I'am rude and same goes with you but that doesn't mean we should start abusing our own brothers and sisters.
We Ismailis are respected in all parts of the world not just because of our imams[as] and charity but also because of our tolerance towards others....We all should always remember this !!!
-
shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
To zznoor:Ya Ali Madad.
You are back with stunts on salads( 1400 years old n stale).
before you post.
we follow MHI/ALI what he orders today n not his Phase of khalifa
to the then army.
we enjoy fresh fruit n NOT poisioned decayed friuts.
I had eariler also clarified.
if anyone can find and repost it of salat period as siad i a letter.
Please note that there is no authencity of najul balaga by our Imam per se.LI
Again is a compilation of data stored or found then.
Hz ALI may have written as his status as Khalifa and Not Imam then.
you have used your shit blooded with paincolor ink to name the acrobats.
Isha is misunderstood by all ignotant.IT CLEARY MENTION 3 hour before
night ends n not night begins.
it give the time of 3.30 -4.30 am depending on season of the region.
That is not a legal document by any chance,just an academic collection
to personify onne's personality which Shia scholatr have done.
we follow the noor of ALI of the time.
what is told today is held valid for dua and not even Imam SMS may have said 150 years back in regard to same act or obligations for Ismailis to do/perform.
What so great about that letter.
My great grand father wrote in his will to his son(my grandfather) as they were wealthy then to send his chidrens to school by horse carriage then.
can he do that today,if wealthy they would go by car or school bus.
so letter /will has intent n essence but locked with the time and transport mode available then.
You bitch again you copy pasted a data/letter with no legality of it.
is there any ayat is prayer specific time ...NO NO.
In fact one pray while lying down horizontally,there is ayat is that regard.
are there any AYAT on keeping beard,wearing cap.
or just the disaster are mimicking the delivery entity.
all fraudulently said by third person.
are u following the Quran or observation n saying of any tom dick n harry
who are not authorized by Quran.
is the word Hadith is mentioned Quran ....NO NO No
to follow.
Imam E mubeen n Quran are mentioned till day of Judgement.
if you run your business in any field as you boast.
you may be surprised with my bio data n intellects/genius seeking my advice in matters they are masters n authority.
Does that make me too smart as not to believe in Imam or obligatory
offering and this all this is scam,cult etc.
Infact my Intellect is HIS grace ,he has proved it to me.
that why I say Allah word is signature name of ALI in Quran.
You have left the family,You may be feeling screwed up with adopted
Jihadis.
No need to interfere in affair of the family.
Father is there for us.
let me tell you by default imposing curse of ALI/Allah when you say against Imam.
Wait n watch your health,face n even your wealth.
Future is there to see.
one question what are doing on this site being a Shariati?
Admin has lost his balance and has FAILED in moderating this website
You are back with stunts on salads( 1400 years old n stale).
before you post.
we follow MHI/ALI what he orders today n not his Phase of khalifa
to the then army.
we enjoy fresh fruit n NOT poisioned decayed friuts.
I had eariler also clarified.
if anyone can find and repost it of salat period as siad i a letter.
Please note that there is no authencity of najul balaga by our Imam per se.LI
Again is a compilation of data stored or found then.
Hz ALI may have written as his status as Khalifa and Not Imam then.
you have used your shit blooded with paincolor ink to name the acrobats.
Isha is misunderstood by all ignotant.IT CLEARY MENTION 3 hour before
night ends n not night begins.
it give the time of 3.30 -4.30 am depending on season of the region.
That is not a legal document by any chance,just an academic collection
to personify onne's personality which Shia scholatr have done.
we follow the noor of ALI of the time.
what is told today is held valid for dua and not even Imam SMS may have said 150 years back in regard to same act or obligations for Ismailis to do/perform.
What so great about that letter.
My great grand father wrote in his will to his son(my grandfather) as they were wealthy then to send his chidrens to school by horse carriage then.
can he do that today,if wealthy they would go by car or school bus.
so letter /will has intent n essence but locked with the time and transport mode available then.
You bitch again you copy pasted a data/letter with no legality of it.
is there any ayat is prayer specific time ...NO NO.
In fact one pray while lying down horizontally,there is ayat is that regard.
are there any AYAT on keeping beard,wearing cap.
or just the disaster are mimicking the delivery entity.
all fraudulently said by third person.
are u following the Quran or observation n saying of any tom dick n harry
who are not authorized by Quran.
is the word Hadith is mentioned Quran ....NO NO No
to follow.
Imam E mubeen n Quran are mentioned till day of Judgement.
if you run your business in any field as you boast.
you may be surprised with my bio data n intellects/genius seeking my advice in matters they are masters n authority.
Does that make me too smart as not to believe in Imam or obligatory
offering and this all this is scam,cult etc.
Infact my Intellect is HIS grace ,he has proved it to me.
that why I say Allah word is signature name of ALI in Quran.
You have left the family,You may be feeling screwed up with adopted
Jihadis.
No need to interfere in affair of the family.
Father is there for us.
let me tell you by default imposing curse of ALI/Allah when you say against Imam.
Wait n watch your health,face n even your wealth.
Future is there to see.
one question what are doing on this site being a Shariati?
Admin has lost his balance and has FAILED in moderating this website
Shiraz,I know sometimes he may sound rude...well sometimes even I'am rude and same goes with you but that doesn't mean we should start abusing our own brothers and sisters.
As I wrote above as long as he keeps his mouth shut, not made his own wrong interpretation, not pin point mistakes in post, farmans and other Ismaili literature then I do not have to criticize him. but you may have noticed he has this kind bad habits for a long time and I doubt that he will change in this category, 'Adat se majboor"
Plus, don't forget that he awarded you, Nuseri and my self as a Hindu!!! many times before, let me ask you this!, who gave him the authority to judge any one's Imam? it is possible that your iman may be lot more stronger than him or everybody in this forum? who knows! but because of you as my ustad I have to respect your advise too so, I will be become more polite and soft towards him, this is my promis to you but in return of this you have to come regularly and post your comments as you used to.
Last edited by agakhani on Wed Jul 16, 2014 8:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
Please do show us what's so unscrupulous and some evil deeds they have done?zznoor wrote: Little do these unscrupulous and self-made leaders of misguided sects understand what severe penalty and punishment awaits them for their evil deeds!
What do you consider as 'evil deeds' and 'unscrupulous'?
Please compare the work of our community for the betterment of humankind, regardless of race, religion and/or faith in developing and third world vis a vis to other mainstream islamic states. I don't want to boast or rub it to your face, but it's necessary to point these facts for someone who's ignorant of the reality of this day and age.
You forget to include Jaffary fique andshiraz.virani wrote:zznoor said :
What is islamic ??...The teachings of 4 imams, 1 of who'z interpretation you follow ???Gain some Islamic knowledge of Salat, Hajj etc. before mocking it.
Like a ostrich you have your head in sand.
One thing that I wanna tell you is, "BEEN THERE DONE THAT"
Daim-Al-Islam by Qadi Numan (Ismaili Shia Muslim)
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shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
zznoor said :
Chalo at least you acknowledged the fact that you do follow 1 of those 4 imams = some firkah = different interpretation.
lol, since when did you started believing in firkah's noor ???...Until last month it was only allah[swt] and rasool[saw] for you.You forget to include Jaffary fique and
Daim-Al-Islam by Qadi Numan (Ismaili Shia Muslim)
Chalo at least you acknowledged the fact that you do follow 1 of those 4 imams = some firkah = different interpretation.
-
shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
tret said :
1] have you ever seen the devil performing good deeds ???
2] have you ever seen the devil doing something for the betterment of people ???
I think zznoor is confused or does not understand the true meaning of evil.
Evil is
1] Muslims killing muslims in Iraq, pakistan, Syria and other countries
2] Muslim father raping her daughter in law and his son[husband] is told me some mullah [fatwa] that he should dissolve the marriage and the father in law walks freely.
3] So called Islamic states watching the whole incident in Palestine and yet turn a blind eye [ Do you know India even though not an Islamic state condemned this act of Israel and planning to take this issue @ UN ]
tret,Please do show us what's so unscrupulous and some evil deeds they have done?
What do you consider as 'evil deeds' and 'unscrupulous'?
Please compare the work of our community for the betterment of humankind, regardless of race, religion and/or faith in developing and third world vis a vis to other mainstream islamic states. I don't want to boast or rub it to your face, but it's necessary to point these facts for someone who's ignorant of the reality of this day and age.
1] have you ever seen the devil performing good deeds ???
2] have you ever seen the devil doing something for the betterment of people ???
I think zznoor is confused or does not understand the true meaning of evil.
Evil is
1] Muslims killing muslims in Iraq, pakistan, Syria and other countries
2] Muslim father raping her daughter in law and his son[husband] is told me some mullah [fatwa] that he should dissolve the marriage and the father in law walks freely.
3] So called Islamic states watching the whole incident in Palestine and yet turn a blind eye [ Do you know India even though not an Islamic state condemned this act of Israel and planning to take this issue @ UN ]
Ya Ali Madad My response is below and I request you to send your question and my reponse to your ITREB, you Mukhi, and to IIS, with a request for clarification and or confirmation from them.
1 Dua and Namaz is the act of offering prayers 9Salat). Therefore they both effectively mean the same. Ismaili muslims offered Namaz 3 times a day as stated in the Quran. Sunnis offered 5 times according to the Hadiths. Ismailis say salat 3 times a day according to the Quran and its interpretation by their Imams of the time, who continued the tawil and talim of the Quran (constitution). In some countries Ismaili muslims still do so. For example in parts of Afghanistan. There are many Ismaili traditions which are more similar to the other schools of the Muslim Ummah. Like for example Khatham, and chiraj Roshan, which are not have in the Khoja Ismaili tradition & tariquah. The Ismaili Namaz/Dua Khoja format was introduced during the (Pir), Piratan period said to be by Pir Shams. Pirs had divine amr from Imam of the time. Hence in our duas and ginans we refer to Imam of the time, as “Shah” Pir, Swami, sat gur etc. The Hindu concept of God is everywhere was adopted by the Pirs, with the Priest facing the congregation during prayers. In our case, Pir and Mukhi who have the amr of the Imam of the time. Imam has has divine authority given through the nur of Prophet, who Allah says we must all obey “Obey Allah and the Prophet” (Quran). Unfortunately DJI/IIS is not releasing the research and has stopped IIS and ITREBS from publishing books on Ismaili rites tariquah and ceremonies, and stopped publishing and giving Farmans to the Jamat. They are refusing to give copies of even the constitution, which itself is a Farman. They are not doing despite Farmans from Hazar Imam. Ismailis need to get and share the research and get them to explain why are they not doing what Imam says even in the mandate of ITREB and IIS
2 All Ismaili Prayer halls face the Sacred Mosque. However in the Khoja Ismaili tradition and interpretations, the Mukhi and Kamadias face the congregation and so do the person reciting the dua, including now some of the Leaders. After the Dua/Namaz all the other practices are conducted by most in the Ummah with the Imams etc facing the congregation. Even duing the reading or quran during Ramandan.
3 Imams have never said in Farmans that Ismailis must not fast during the month of Ramadan. This has not been communicated correctly to the Jamat by DJI who control and manage ITREBS. IIS and Huzur globally. As you will know they are also not giving Farmans to the Jamat and have stopped the teaching of our tariquah rites, ceremonies and practices for over 3 decades.
4 Hazar Imam has said in many Farmans that we must have read, learn and understand the Quran, our Dua, our rites, our practices and Farmans. The Quran is not even kept in most Jk’s, and not sold at the literature desks. Unfortunately our top leaders at DJI are not doing what Imam has said in Farmans. Therefore it the duty of every Ismaili to seek, teach, and share this knowledge and especially farmans with the jamat. And it is up to the members of the Jamat locally and nationally to ensure that ITREBS and Mukhis do what Imam is saying in Farmans.
I hope the above answers your questions. I hope you will receive more clarifications from ITREBS, your Mukhi and or IIS. Please share them here and with the Jamat. Imam wishes us to share.
1 Dua and Namaz is the act of offering prayers 9Salat). Therefore they both effectively mean the same. Ismaili muslims offered Namaz 3 times a day as stated in the Quran. Sunnis offered 5 times according to the Hadiths. Ismailis say salat 3 times a day according to the Quran and its interpretation by their Imams of the time, who continued the tawil and talim of the Quran (constitution). In some countries Ismaili muslims still do so. For example in parts of Afghanistan. There are many Ismaili traditions which are more similar to the other schools of the Muslim Ummah. Like for example Khatham, and chiraj Roshan, which are not have in the Khoja Ismaili tradition & tariquah. The Ismaili Namaz/Dua Khoja format was introduced during the (Pir), Piratan period said to be by Pir Shams. Pirs had divine amr from Imam of the time. Hence in our duas and ginans we refer to Imam of the time, as “Shah” Pir, Swami, sat gur etc. The Hindu concept of God is everywhere was adopted by the Pirs, with the Priest facing the congregation during prayers. In our case, Pir and Mukhi who have the amr of the Imam of the time. Imam has has divine authority given through the nur of Prophet, who Allah says we must all obey “Obey Allah and the Prophet” (Quran). Unfortunately DJI/IIS is not releasing the research and has stopped IIS and ITREBS from publishing books on Ismaili rites tariquah and ceremonies, and stopped publishing and giving Farmans to the Jamat. They are refusing to give copies of even the constitution, which itself is a Farman. They are not doing despite Farmans from Hazar Imam. Ismailis need to get and share the research and get them to explain why are they not doing what Imam says even in the mandate of ITREB and IIS
2 All Ismaili Prayer halls face the Sacred Mosque. However in the Khoja Ismaili tradition and interpretations, the Mukhi and Kamadias face the congregation and so do the person reciting the dua, including now some of the Leaders. After the Dua/Namaz all the other practices are conducted by most in the Ummah with the Imams etc facing the congregation. Even duing the reading or quran during Ramandan.
3 Imams have never said in Farmans that Ismailis must not fast during the month of Ramadan. This has not been communicated correctly to the Jamat by DJI who control and manage ITREBS. IIS and Huzur globally. As you will know they are also not giving Farmans to the Jamat and have stopped the teaching of our tariquah rites, ceremonies and practices for over 3 decades.
4 Hazar Imam has said in many Farmans that we must have read, learn and understand the Quran, our Dua, our rites, our practices and Farmans. The Quran is not even kept in most Jk’s, and not sold at the literature desks. Unfortunately our top leaders at DJI are not doing what Imam has said in Farmans. Therefore it the duty of every Ismaili to seek, teach, and share this knowledge and especially farmans with the jamat. And it is up to the members of the Jamat locally and nationally to ensure that ITREBS and Mukhis do what Imam is saying in Farmans.
I hope the above answers your questions. I hope you will receive more clarifications from ITREBS, your Mukhi and or IIS. Please share them here and with the Jamat. Imam wishes us to share.
bloguk - All in all, very good analysis and post, couple simple of observations:
About Du'a and Namaz: According to my understanding they have co-existed historically in Ismaili tariqa, and one complement another. I think they should not be used interchangeably. However, I agree with you that the intent of both Du'a and Namaz are one and the same which is prayer/worship and supplication to the Almighty God, but ritually they are different practices. I am not sure if we can equate Du'a and Namaz? Please if you have some more information in this regard, I'd love to learn.
Salat is I think different than Du'a and Namaz. Salat is calling for prayer. I think esoterically it signifies calling mankind to the stright path. Or Da'wa, which is one of the important pillar of Ismaili tariqa.
I agree with you that in different parts of the world, depending on where Jama'at is living, practice rituals, specially Namaz according to their circumstances, as you rightfully gave the example of Afghanistan.
Can you please be more specific and if you could give an example when you say the following?
Entirely agree with your points #3 and #4. I would be more curious behind the intention of leaders, as to why????
About Du'a and Namaz: According to my understanding they have co-existed historically in Ismaili tariqa, and one complement another. I think they should not be used interchangeably. However, I agree with you that the intent of both Du'a and Namaz are one and the same which is prayer/worship and supplication to the Almighty God, but ritually they are different practices. I am not sure if we can equate Du'a and Namaz? Please if you have some more information in this regard, I'd love to learn.
Salat is I think different than Du'a and Namaz. Salat is calling for prayer. I think esoterically it signifies calling mankind to the stright path. Or Da'wa, which is one of the important pillar of Ismaili tariqa.
I agree with you that in different parts of the world, depending on where Jama'at is living, practice rituals, specially Namaz according to their circumstances, as you rightfully gave the example of Afghanistan.
Can you please be more specific and if you could give an example when you say the following?
BTW, I think even in this website, you should be able to find Ismaili Constitution. I like your vision of considering Ismaili Constitution as Farmaan; however, some members of this site may disagree with you. I agree with you on this.Unfortunately DJI/IIS is not releasing the research and has stopped IIS and ITREBS from publishing books on Ismaili rites tariquah and ceremonies, and stopped publishing and giving Farmans to the Jamat. They are refusing to give copies of even the constitution, which itself is a Farman. They are not doing despite Farmans from Hazar Imam. Ismailis need to get and share the research and get them to explain why are they not doing what Imam says even in the mandate of ITREB and IIS
Entirely agree with your points #3 and #4. I would be more curious behind the intention of leaders, as to why????
tret wrote:bloguk - All in all, very good analysis and post, couple simple of observations:
About Du'a and Namaz: According to my understanding they have co-existed historically in Ismaili tariqa, and one complement another. I think they should not be used interchangeably. However, I agree with you that the intent of both Du'a and Namaz are one and the same which is prayer/worship and supplication to the Almighty God, but ritually they are different practices. I am not sure if we can equate Du'a and Namaz? Please if you have some more information in this regard, I'd love to learn.
Salat is I think different than Du'a and Namaz. Salat is calling for prayer. I think esoterically it signifies calling mankind to the stright path. Or Da'wa, which is one of the important pillar of Ismaili tariqa.
I agree with you that in different parts of the world, depending on where Jama'at is living, practice rituals, specially Namaz according to their circumstances, as you rightfully gave the example of Afghanistan.
Can you please be more specific and if you could give an example when you say the following?
BTW, I think even in this website, you should be able to find Ismaili Constitution. I like your vision of considering Ismaili Constitution as Farmaan; however, some members of this site may disagree with you. I agree with you on this.Unfortunately DJI/IIS is not releasing the research and has stopped IIS and ITREBS from publishing books on Ismaili rites tariquah and ceremonies, and stopped publishing and giving Farmans to the Jamat. They are refusing to give copies of even the constitution, which itself is a Farman. They are not doing despite Farmans from Hazar Imam. Ismailis need to get and share the research and get them to explain why are they not doing what Imam says even in the mandate of ITREB and IIS
Entirely agree with your points #3 and #4. I would be more curious behind the intention of leaders, as to why????
I would refer both of you to the Usul-e-Deen Farman that should address your points 3 and 4.
Shams
Why don't you be a gentleman and say what Usul-e-Din Farman says about "Fast in Ramadan" and "Learn and understand the Qur'an"? Does it say differently? I am only asking because I have not read this Farmaan yet.ShamsB wrote:
I would refer both of you to the Usul-e-Deen Farman that should address your points 3 and 4.
Shams
You don't need to quote Farmaan, if it's against the policy of posting Farmaan in a public forum, but you could say it in your own words, I am sure.
Ismailis have access to Usul-e-Din Farman. it is a well known Farman read in Jamatkhanas across the world once in a while.
I would not permit it to be posted here. Get it from your ITREB or your Mukhi. The Farman is very clear. But there is a warning in it, as it says that those who are Shariati will never accept and understand His Farmans.
I would not permit it to be posted here. Get it from your ITREB or your Mukhi. The Farman is very clear. But there is a warning in it, as it says that those who are Shariati will never accept and understand His Farmans.
To Admint - You allow members to insult and degrade the Prophet and the Qur'an, and that's okay for you, and not allow to explain -- not quote -- a Farmaan? Those who don't understand, that'd be their lack of understanding, but those who wants to learn, shall try and contemplate. I believe all Ismailis past shariat. But again, it's your site; and you rule.Admin wrote:Ismailis have access to Usul-e-Din Farman. it is a well known Farman read in Jamatkhanas across the world once in a while.
I would not permit it to be posted here. Get it from your ITREB or your Mukhi. The Farman is very clear. But there is a warning in it, as it says that those who are Shariati will never accept and understand His Farmans.
It has been a policy of this site since 20 years not to allow Farmans to be posted, especially Farmans on Batini matters. No insult is intended. We do not allow anyone to degrade the Prophet (PBUH). I am not sure from where you had this idea. The site is tolerant but not to the point of letting anyone insult our Prophet (PBUH) or our Imams or even the Noorani family. Most of the insult we tolerate are those against Admin.