To understand that imam in Quran ca mean different thing to translators, I looked at 17:71 and compiled what they meant as under:
17:71
Muhammad Asad---summon all human beings
M. M. Pickthal -- summon all men with their record,
Shakir-- lcall every people with their Imam; ---
Yusuf Ali--call together all human beings with their (respective) Imams:
Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar---call to every clan with their leader,
Wahiduddin Khan-- summon every people with their leader.
T.B.Irving ---along with whoever has led them,
[Al-Muntakhab]--summon all people, each nation with their respective leader
[The Monotheist Group] (2011 Edition) ---call every people by their Scripture.
Abdul Majid Daryabadi---call all man kind with their record:
Ahmed Ali-- summon all men with their leaders,
Aisha Bewley--- every people with their records,
Ali Ünal-- human community with its leader: whoever (has followed a leader towards true faith and righteousness and accountability in the Hereafter)
Ali Quli Qara'i--summon every group of people with their imam,
Hamid S. Aziz --summon all men by their record (or leaders or scriptures);
Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali --call all folks with their Imam; (Their leader; or: their record, their register)
Muhammad Sarwar---with their leaders,
Muhammad Taqi Usmani--- call every people with their books of deeds.
Shabbir Ahmed--summon all human beings with their records.
Syed Vickar Ahamed--- call all human beings together with their (leaders) Imams:
Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) --call forth every people with their record [of deeds].
Farook Malik-- call every community with their respective Imams (leaders):
Dr. Munir Munshey ---summon all human beings with their record of deeds.
Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri--call every section of people along with their leaders.
Dr. Kamal Omar--- call all human beings with their Imam (‘one which guides and leads’. This is one of the attributes for Allah’s Book — i.e., Al-Kitab)
Talal A. Itani (new translation)---call every people with their leader.
Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition)-- call together all human beings with their leaders.
Maududi --summon every community with its leader.
[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition)--call every people by their beacon.
Arthur John Arberry--call all men with their record,
Edward Henry Palmer-- call all men by their high priest;
George Sale-- call all men to judgment with their respective leader:
John Medows Rodwell--all men with their leaders:
N J Dawood (draft) --We shall summon each community with its leader.
Sayyid Qutb- every community by their leaders.
Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli--every people with their Imam (leader) ;
Mohammad Shafi--We will call every people with their Imam.
Like all mainstream Muslim I think I will be called with my leader Prophet Muhammad or Quran.
So There is no agreement that Imam is progeny of Ali.
Who could be considered a Muslim
zz
in 17-71 God uses the arabic word Imam, and Kitab in the same ayat. Kitab would be arabic for book. I doubt the translation would be book for Imam in the same sentence and book for kitab.
I would agree that there is no consensus in the Ummah. Ismailis dont try to convert any body since it is our belief that there is no wrong way with God's religions. All paths lead to God.
But you still have to reconcile 2-124, explicit appointment of Imams, and many other ayats if you wish to take Imam out of the Quran. Also you claim Mohammad (PBUH) to be your leader. Well unfortunately the man has been deceased for approx. 14000 years. As per Quran he is not answerable for your guidance since he never guided you. Religion has a way of getting very interesting if you dont pick choose but must swallow it as whole.
in 17-71 God uses the arabic word Imam, and Kitab in the same ayat. Kitab would be arabic for book. I doubt the translation would be book for Imam in the same sentence and book for kitab.
I would agree that there is no consensus in the Ummah. Ismailis dont try to convert any body since it is our belief that there is no wrong way with God's religions. All paths lead to God.
But you still have to reconcile 2-124, explicit appointment of Imams, and many other ayats if you wish to take Imam out of the Quran. Also you claim Mohammad (PBUH) to be your leader. Well unfortunately the man has been deceased for approx. 14000 years. As per Quran he is not answerable for your guidance since he never guided you. Religion has a way of getting very interesting if you dont pick choose but must swallow it as whole.
Do Sunnis have any body who claims to have been appointed by God to lead the Ummah.Do Sunnis have any body who claims to have been appointed by God to lead the Ummah. Do Sunnis have any one who claims to be answerable for the community as directed in 17-71. Our Imam is a direct descendant of Mohammad and by extension Ibrahim A.S. When He introduces himself to major muslim leaders he does so by that claim, as the Imam of the Time answerable to God for our community.
No. Neither Hz Ali was God appointed leader. Show me Aya from Quran.
Do Sunnis have any one who claims to be answerable for the community as directed in 17-71. No do not need one.
Our Imam is a direct descendant of Mohammad and by extension Ibrahim A.S.
that is what he claims, 12vers have different and Mustaali have different chain, Zaidi has different claimant.
When He introduces himself to major muslim leaders he does so by that claim, as the Imam of the Time answerable to God for our community.
Can you quote a speech he made to Muslim leaders making that claim.
BTW
I posted comment of Y Ali to demonstrate meaning of Imam. We are not concerned with needs of Ibrahim's followers.
We are followers of Muhammad who was given book. His Sunna shows us how to worship Allah SWT.
Do Sunnis have any body who claims to have been appointed by God to lead the Ummah.Do Sunnis have any body who claims to have been appointed by God to lead the Ummah. Do Sunnis have any one who claims to be answerable for the community as directed in 17-71. Our Imam is a direct descendant of Mohammad and by extension Ibrahim A.S. When He introduces himself to major muslim leaders he does so by that claim, as the Imam of the Time answerable to God for our community.
No. Neither Hz Ali was God appointed leader. Show me Aya from Quran.
Do Sunnis have any one who claims to be answerable for the community as directed in 17-71. No do not need one.
Our Imam is a direct descendant of Mohammad and by extension Ibrahim A.S.
that is what he claims, 12vers have different and Mustaali have different chain, Zaidi has different claimant.
When He introduces himself to major muslim leaders he does so by that claim, as the Imam of the Time answerable to God for our community.
Can you quote a speech he made to Muslim leaders making that claim.
BTW
I posted comment of Y Ali to demonstrate meaning of Imam. We are not concerned with needs of Ibrahim's followers.
We are followers of Muhammad who was given book. His Sunna shows us how to worship Allah SWT.
zz you are more concerned with proving me wrong then strengthening your own faith. You obviously have a grudge against ismailis, and thats fine really you arent the first, and you wont be the last. You tend to dismiss ayats of Quran as if they really don't exist. I find it breath taking to say the least. Your comment about one of Allah's most revered messengers Ibrahim (A.S) and his imamat are of the utmost arrogance. Most learned sunnis with whom i've had learned discussions with have serious philosophical issues with Quranic ayats about Imam. You don't, since you sweep those ayats under the rug.
Again ill leave you with the advice that if you claim to be a true muslim, you cannot pick chose from the Quran as you love to do. You must take it as whole. Then you shall have no choice but to believe in all of God's messengers, not just Mohammad (PBUH). You have to believe in the Jewish Book, Christian Book and the Book of David since they were also sent by your Creator. You really cant get away with Gods appointment of Immamat since several ayats describe it.
Disbelieve in part of the Quran and you are accountable for your soul we Ismaili Muslims are accountable for ours. No more debates zz
Again ill leave you with the advice that if you claim to be a true muslim, you cannot pick chose from the Quran as you love to do. You must take it as whole. Then you shall have no choice but to believe in all of God's messengers, not just Mohammad (PBUH). You have to believe in the Jewish Book, Christian Book and the Book of David since they were also sent by your Creator. You really cant get away with Gods appointment of Immamat since several ayats describe it.
Disbelieve in part of the Quran and you are accountable for your soul we Ismaili Muslims are accountable for ours. No more debates zz
ZZnoorzznoor wrote:Do Sunnis have any body who claims to have been appointed by God to lead the Ummah.Do Sunnis have any body who claims to have been appointed by God to lead the Ummah. Do Sunnis have any one who claims to be answerable for the community as directed in 17-71. Our Imam is a direct descendant of Mohammad and by extension Ibrahim A.S. When He introduces himself to major muslim leaders he does so by that claim, as the Imam of the Time answerable to God for our community.
No. Neither Hz Ali was God appointed leader. Show me Aya from Quran.
Do Sunnis have any one who claims to be answerable for the community as directed in 17-71. No do not need one.
Our Imam is a direct descendant of Mohammad and by extension Ibrahim A.S.
that is what he claims, 12vers have different and Mustaali have different chain, Zaidi has different claimant.
When He introduces himself to major muslim leaders he does so by that claim, as the Imam of the Time answerable to God for our community.
Can you quote a speech he made to Muslim leaders making that claim.
BTW
I posted comment of Y Ali to demonstrate meaning of Imam. We are not concerned with needs of Ibrahim's followers.
We are followers of Muhammad who was given book. His Sunna shows us how to worship Allah SWT.
I think it is time to take your chappal and teach you a lesson again - seems like you're rearing your head again.
Did Allah or the Prophet condone killing of Muslims by Muslims in the Quran or in the Hadiths?
Seems like your brothers in Iraq and Syria are doing just that - and not limiting it to just us Shias!
There are 1.6 million muslims in Gaza that are being herded towards slaughter by the Israelis - not a single muslim country is standing up for them - is that what your interpretation of Islam preaches?
The people that you espouse to be brethern with - the Saudis, the Qataris - are using Islam as a political tool.
If being Muslim means - not looking towards another human being with compassion - without regard to caste, creed or faith - then I don't want to be a Muslim - go be happy being a muslim.
Quran talks about Imam-e-Mubeen - where is this Imam-e-Mubeen.
Read the Jordan Conference Message - the Imam clearly states that we are in the line of a Jafari Madhab and he is the 49th Imam - direct descendant of the Prophet.
Oh and the Imam also said this in his speeches in Dubai and Qatar over the years - I think these are Muslim Countries and he said this in the presence of the RULERS of that country.
Um - HE's said in Pakistan and in Bangladesh as well - i think Muslim countries as well.
Oh - how i pity you your ignorance.
WHO are you to say who is a muslim or not a muslim?
ALLAH IN THE QURAN SAYS - ISLAM WAS THE RELIGION OF ALL THE PROPHETS - FROM ADAM TO MOHAMMAD.
according to OUR IMAM.
Anyone who submits to Allah (i.e. ALI) and accepts Mohammed as the last prophet of Allah - is a MUSLIM - and that is the basic requirement, nothing else - no other rules that you have made up whilst in your boredom
Sorry - you will not get the wah wahs of being a true muslim or intellectual here.
We've already proven that you have no idea what you talk about - want me to start again?
You will say - oh being a muslim means following 5 pillars -
Show me 5 pillars mentioned in the quran - in one ayah - where allah states - to be a muslim you have to follow these 5 pillars - there is no such ayah - just like there isn't one where allah specifically says - pray 5x a day.
in those regards there is something to the effect of 67 references to a daily prayer - show me one sunni that prays 10 times a day - let alone 67...
If you really want to look at a Quranic perspective of what a muslim is - there are about 300+ qualities/activities/actions that a muslim must do -
and killing others - or other muslims isn't one of them.
Neither is judging other people's faith.
We've said this before - please go back to the other sunni sites you copy and paste from.
Oh i forgot - they're true muslims - and you must muzzle yourself infront of them - because a woman is equal to 1/2 a man - as it'll take 2 women to equal one man - as per the quran - right?
just as a woman has to find 4 witnesses to prove she was actually raped - whilst a man doesn't need any to prove otherwise - right?
I wonder what the 4 witnesses would be doing while she was being raped?
I think time for you to shut up again?
or do i pull out the other chappal again?
Shams
Ya Ali Madad.
every one is fighting hi n low for the word n status of Imam.
As I said earlier that ALI is the original generic name of GOD and all name for him in modern marketing mantra were/are his brand names for period
since humans existed.
God want each person to know him via one;s own soul to see him( baatin didar) and also know the truth of one' faith.
For these soul have given unlimited time to raise their ranks n file.
the pasaage of understanding parable (quiz/riddle type one liners) Allah
23 years to dictate out of prophet.
So the parables in Quran has given rise to many important words being
different such as the word Imam,understood by Sunni,Shia n Ismailis.
Imam is not bound to explian each n every Ayat but his Farmans are taken as word of Quran at each passing Imam n the period.
Quran itself is pilfered where word Imam n ALI are mentioned.
(no debate on that).
If Quran has mentioned the word Imam.
then one must see the qualitative difference between Hereditary Imam
AND many Imam farman claiming themselves as Allah.
If that is so one must observe despite all out attempt to wipe out Imams
by radicals .
Imamat office is still up holded by a living Imam.
observe:
1. Light on his face.
2. always smiling.(show me any other human being)
3. any forensic of world class will match the farman vocabulary n style
of Ayats and word of farman from same source(writing DNA profiling).
4.See the quality of the status of an Imam in world eyes.
5.has gut to human being as his spiritual children.
Is asked ,short answer can come out.
There are many qualities reflected from His speeches,interviews,act of imamat institution.
if one observes that street side imam who lead prayers in poor ghetto mosque.
They are not even secular educated.
they do carry themselves even hygienically.
they just have locus standi among that mosque community.
I have seen serious grin on their face n unlighted.
they nature and outlook have kept sunnis poor n backward in the word.
I feel Christianity has scored over sunni's as seeing and praying to ALI as holy father,no doubt they inherit best place on earth to stay and have glow of light on them are fair skinned almost at near heaven stage with fertile land and good weather.
there will endless debate of copy paste of the past data.
If thing change or reconciled from last 1400.
it wont happen over our debate.
Either ALI opens up to world (zahurat)
or each n every soul goes thru the grind.
Status of Ismailis today in regard
1. to their praying n meditation time obligations.
2. percentage of wealth given n spent on obligatory offerings n charity.
3. status of education level visavis the country they reside.
4.level of per capita family monthly income.
( I assume and even sure in my city we come in top 5%).
5.Glow of inbuilt light on their faces.
6.time given to volunteer for community and society at large.
plus many more which other members can contribute.
for Sunnis fron the leadership of the shabby local mosque Imam.
IT HAS ONE WORD DISASTER from the word go from the death of
prophets.
many detail of their quality is on the site.
i.e in Maharastra anIndian state with 11% poulation they form 70% of the prison population.
they are the most disliked community by majority of sane world.
So by going to score brownie point to debate of past era data is useless
and a strategy by one shariati member.
SEEING THE LIVING IMAM AND ISMAILIS TODAY IS THE GREATEST TESTIMONY.
I hereby say Proud to be Ismaili
l
every one is fighting hi n low for the word n status of Imam.
As I said earlier that ALI is the original generic name of GOD and all name for him in modern marketing mantra were/are his brand names for period
since humans existed.
God want each person to know him via one;s own soul to see him( baatin didar) and also know the truth of one' faith.
For these soul have given unlimited time to raise their ranks n file.
the pasaage of understanding parable (quiz/riddle type one liners) Allah
23 years to dictate out of prophet.
So the parables in Quran has given rise to many important words being
different such as the word Imam,understood by Sunni,Shia n Ismailis.
Imam is not bound to explian each n every Ayat but his Farmans are taken as word of Quran at each passing Imam n the period.
Quran itself is pilfered where word Imam n ALI are mentioned.
(no debate on that).
If Quran has mentioned the word Imam.
then one must see the qualitative difference between Hereditary Imam
AND many Imam farman claiming themselves as Allah.
If that is so one must observe despite all out attempt to wipe out Imams
by radicals .
Imamat office is still up holded by a living Imam.
observe:
1. Light on his face.
2. always smiling.(show me any other human being)
3. any forensic of world class will match the farman vocabulary n style
of Ayats and word of farman from same source(writing DNA profiling).
4.See the quality of the status of an Imam in world eyes.
5.has gut to human being as his spiritual children.
Is asked ,short answer can come out.
There are many qualities reflected from His speeches,interviews,act of imamat institution.
if one observes that street side imam who lead prayers in poor ghetto mosque.
They are not even secular educated.
they do carry themselves even hygienically.
they just have locus standi among that mosque community.
I have seen serious grin on their face n unlighted.
they nature and outlook have kept sunnis poor n backward in the word.
I feel Christianity has scored over sunni's as seeing and praying to ALI as holy father,no doubt they inherit best place on earth to stay and have glow of light on them are fair skinned almost at near heaven stage with fertile land and good weather.
there will endless debate of copy paste of the past data.
If thing change or reconciled from last 1400.
it wont happen over our debate.
Either ALI opens up to world (zahurat)
or each n every soul goes thru the grind.
Status of Ismailis today in regard
1. to their praying n meditation time obligations.
2. percentage of wealth given n spent on obligatory offerings n charity.
3. status of education level visavis the country they reside.
4.level of per capita family monthly income.
( I assume and even sure in my city we come in top 5%).
5.Glow of inbuilt light on their faces.
6.time given to volunteer for community and society at large.
plus many more which other members can contribute.
for Sunnis fron the leadership of the shabby local mosque Imam.
IT HAS ONE WORD DISASTER from the word go from the death of
prophets.
many detail of their quality is on the site.
i.e in Maharastra anIndian state with 11% poulation they form 70% of the prison population.
they are the most disliked community by majority of sane world.
So by going to score brownie point to debate of past era data is useless
and a strategy by one shariati member.
SEEING THE LIVING IMAM AND ISMAILIS TODAY IS THE GREATEST TESTIMONY.
I hereby say Proud to be Ismaili
l
Who can consider a true Muslim women? I asked a question,
He told me no body!!! answered my once a strict Sunny ( 5 times namazi ) but turned in no religion person now a days!! I asked him why you say so!!
1! because 75% Muslim khatoons do not know Namaz !!!!!
Comments:-
When in Ismaili sect every child who is older then 4-5 years knows their du'a.
2, Because Islam say : it is a sin to plug your eye brows!!! but Muslim ladies plug their eye brows any way!!so, they are not true Muslim!!!ha ha hah
Comments:-
ZZNoor what about you! are you plug your eye brows? if yes then you are also not true Muslim? never mind you were never become a true Muslim ever!..
3, Because they takes and let other to take their photos!! but In islam it is prohibited to let any one to take photos! but the reality is every Muslim lady do not follow what Islam says, therefore they are not Muslim.
4, Because the punishment for having unmarried sex is whipping with a hundred lashes and then being exiled for a year.!!
5, Because in Islam: Women are not allowed to wear hair extensions or a wig but majority of Muslim ladies does not follows what Islam says!!! so they are not true Muslims.
6, A true Muslim women should opposes Islamic violence acts but they are not opposes it but instead of they are encouraging violent peoples to kill non- Muslims!! therefore they are not true Muslim women.
I have bigger list but let see what Admin react about above comments!
He told me no body!!! answered my once a strict Sunny ( 5 times namazi ) but turned in no religion person now a days!! I asked him why you say so!!
1! because 75% Muslim khatoons do not know Namaz !!!!!
Comments:-
When in Ismaili sect every child who is older then 4-5 years knows their du'a.
2, Because Islam say : it is a sin to plug your eye brows!!! but Muslim ladies plug their eye brows any way!!so, they are not true Muslim!!!ha ha hah
Comments:-ZZNoor what about you! are you plug your eye brows? if yes then you are also not true Muslim? never mind you were never become a true Muslim ever!..
3, Because they takes and let other to take their photos!! but In islam it is prohibited to let any one to take photos! but the reality is every Muslim lady do not follow what Islam says, therefore they are not Muslim.
4, Because the punishment for having unmarried sex is whipping with a hundred lashes and then being exiled for a year.!!
5, Because in Islam: Women are not allowed to wear hair extensions or a wig but majority of Muslim ladies does not follows what Islam says!!! so they are not true Muslims.
6, A true Muslim women should opposes Islamic violence acts but they are not opposes it but instead of they are encouraging violent peoples to kill non- Muslims!! therefore they are not true Muslim women.
I have bigger list but let see what Admin react about above comments!
Imam-e-Mubeen in Q 36:12Quran talks about Imam-e-Mubeen - where is this Imam-e-Mubeen.
Here is
Transliteration
Inna nahnu nuhyee almawta wanaktubu ma qaddamoo waatharahum wakulla shay-in ahsaynahu fee imamin mubeenin
And here is Translation by M. M. Pickthall
Lo! We it is Who bring the dead to life. We record that which they send before (them, and their footprints. And all things We have kept in a clear Register.
Meaning of "imam in mubeenin" in translation by other
scholars
Muhammad Asad---"in a record clear. "
M. M. Pickthal -- "in a clear Register."
Shakir--- "in a clear writing."
Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938)--" in a clear Book (of evidence). "
Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar---" in a clear record. "
Wahiduddin Khan---" in a clear book."
T.B.Irving ---" in an open ledger."
[Al-Muntakhab]---" in a prototype, the archetypal Book."
[The Monotheist Group] (2011 Edition) --" in a clear ledger."
Abdel Haleem ---" a clear Record. "
Abdul Majid Daryabadi--" in a Book luminous."
Ahmed Ali---" in a lucid register."
Aisha Bewley----"in a clear register."
Ali Ünal---"in a Manifest Record."
Ali Quli Qara'i---" in a manifest Imam."
Hamid S. Aziz --" in a Clear Record."
Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali --" in an evident Record."
Muhammad Sarwar--- " in an illustrious Book."
Muhammad Taqi Usmani---" in a manifest book of record. "
Shabbir Ahmed---" in a Clear Record. (What the humans do, the imprints of their actions on their "Self" and what they leave for posterity)."
Syed Vickar Ahamed--- " in a book (of evidence)."
Umm Muhammad (Sahih International) --- "in a clear register."
Farook Malik---" in an open ledger."
Dr. Munir Munshey ---" in a clear and well-protected register!"
Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri--- " in the illumining Book (al-Lawh al-Mahfuz)."
Dr. Kamal Omar- —" We have enumerated them (like a census) in a manifest record ."
Talal A. Itani (new translation)---" in a Clear Record."
Bilal Muhammad (2013 Edition)---" in a clear book. "
Maududi --" in a Clear Book. "
[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition) --" in a clear ledger."
Controversial, deprecated, or status undetermined works
Bijan Moeinian--- show you all your recorded actions; you will see the reaction (even after your death) of all your good/ bad deeds which will affect your reward.
Faridul Haque ---" in a clear Book."
Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah--- " in a Clear Book."
Maulana Muhammad Ali--- " in a clear writing."
Muhammad Ahmed - Samira ---" in a clear/evident example (model/guide) ."
Sher Ali----" in a clear Book. "
Rashad Khalifa---" in a profound record."
Ahmed Raza Khan (Barelvi)---" in a clean Book."
Amatul Rahman Omar--" in a clear record."
Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilalii a Clear Book.
Non-Muslim and/or Orientalist works
Arthur John Arberry---" in a clear register."
Edward Henry Palmer--" in a plain model."
George Sale----" in a plain register."
John Medows Rodwell----" in the clear Book of our decrees."
N J Dawood (draft) ----" in a glorious book. "
New and/or Partial Translations, and works in progress
Sayyid Qutb---" in a clear record. "
Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli ---" in a clear Register."
Mohammad Shafi---" in a clear document."
In all translation imam e Mubin means book of record
-
shiraz.virani
- Posts: 1256
- Joined: Thu May 28, 2009 2:52 pm
zznoor said :
According to numerous 'Ahadith' of the Holy Prophet and Imams[as], "The Qur'an has been revealed...... and for each of its Ayats there an 'appearance' (apparent meaning) and a 'hidden' meaning....."
According to Shia faith, both types of meanings have to be believed, as both are from Allah; and both meanings are complementary to each other.
In this ayat of Sura "Yasin", the apparent meaning is the "Book of Deeds", which has been described in various ways by various translators.
And its "inner" meaning may be known from the tradition of the Holy Prophet, narrated by the famous Sunni Mufassir, and Muhaddith, Imam Jalaluddin Suyuti in his Tafseer "Ad- Durrul Manthur (Vol. V, Page 261, Egypt edition):-
"Abd bin Hamid, Ibn Jarir and Ibn Abi Hatim have narrated from Quatadah that this ayat means that "everything is preserved in a "Leader" (The Arabic word implies a human being.)
What's you take on aayat 2:124??? Did allah[swt] make H.Ibrahim[as] as plain register according to your logic ???
In all translation imam e Mubin means book of record
According to numerous 'Ahadith' of the Holy Prophet and Imams[as], "The Qur'an has been revealed...... and for each of its Ayats there an 'appearance' (apparent meaning) and a 'hidden' meaning....."
According to Shia faith, both types of meanings have to be believed, as both are from Allah; and both meanings are complementary to each other.
In this ayat of Sura "Yasin", the apparent meaning is the "Book of Deeds", which has been described in various ways by various translators.
And its "inner" meaning may be known from the tradition of the Holy Prophet, narrated by the famous Sunni Mufassir, and Muhaddith, Imam Jalaluddin Suyuti in his Tafseer "Ad- Durrul Manthur (Vol. V, Page 261, Egypt edition):-
"Abd bin Hamid, Ibn Jarir and Ibn Abi Hatim have narrated from Quatadah that this ayat means that "everything is preserved in a "Leader" (The Arabic word implies a human being.)
What's you take on aayat 2:124??? Did allah[swt] make H.Ibrahim[as] as plain register according to your logic ???
Shiraz I don't know how You go from Imam meaning a leader and a guide to meaning a book. There are many ayats that describe a role for the imam as one guiding people in their daily lives including giving them a way to perform prayer. You are correct 2-124 is the explicit declaration of Imam as God appointed leader and guide
Whenever imam appears in Quran does not mean divinely appointed imam.What's you take on aayat 2:124??? Did allah[swt] make H.Ibrahim[as] as plain register according to your logic ???
Example
Imam= Road
The word “imam” translates to “road” in verse 15:79 of the Quran.
Transliteration :Faintaqamna minhum wa-innahuma labi- imamin mubeenin
Translation
Muhammad Asad: and so We inflicted Our retribution on them. And, behold, both these [sinful communities] lived by a highway, [to this day] plain to see
M. M. Pickthall: So we took vengeance on them; and lo! they both are on a high-road plain to see.
Shakir: So We inflicted retribution on them, and they are both, indeed, on an open road (still) pursued.
Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985): So We exacted retribution from them. They were both on an open highway, plain to see.
Imam used for leader
They could be leader of Kufr
It becomes abundantly clear that the Quran is using the term “imam” to denote “leader” rather than the Infallible Imam of the Shia.
Irrefutable proof of this lies in the following verse in the Quran:
6. Quran, 9:12:
Transliteration : Wa-in nakathoo aymanahum min baAAdi AAahdihim wataAAanoo fee deenikum faqatiloo a-immata alkufri innahum la aymana lahum laAAallahum yantahoona
Translation :
Shakir: And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist.
They could be leader of Kufr
It becomes abundantly clear that the Quran is using the term “imam” to denote “leader” rather than the Infallible Imam of the Shia.
Irrefutable proof of this lies in the following verse in the Quran:
6. Quran, 9:12:
Transliteration : Wa-in nakathoo aymanahum min baAAdi AAahdihim wataAAanoo fee deenikum faqatiloo a-immata alkufri innahum la aymana lahum laAAallahum yantahoona
Translation :
Shakir: And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist.
Ya Ali Madad:
All the named scholars and Aalim have got whole Quran in the first place wrong as none were rasikunfil ilm.(understand baatin)
so the word Imam and Imam E mubeen gave them no clue as same as the frst line of Quran.
When specifically mentions He speak in parables and Quran is Baatin as well.
All these writers just copy pasted from each other were out to make money in printing and sale of translated copies.
ALL ARE 1000% WRONG.
There is an Ayat from ALI saying there is punishment for who who wrong the words of Allah.
that punishment is not slow but rather swift in same life or max upto two generation.
I request zznoor to do research first on all these peoples names copy pasted.
one may find a shocking pattern for most of them.
ALI does what he mentions in Quran.
of all these translator:
1)How was the last 7 years of their life before death?
2) How was their Death caused by?
3).What is the status of their grave yard or burial spot today?
4) What was/is the status of their children or grandchildren.?
Find it out
It is very very important.
Even prophet shivered when he spell out the Ayats in early years and took 23 years of it.
for a person to write n copy from other writers can be max to max 10 days to month job.
A full study of their life after fake job till two generations is important.
research that ,then have the guts to do wholesale fake n false n incorrect
translation of the 90% quacks.
I have given the translation of the word 'Nur/Noor'.check with all above what is their translation.
they have most 95% of them at layman n Zahiri level copied from each other one to earn some money.
WHAT IMAM SAYS NOW AS FARMANS IS THE REFLECTION N ESSENCE OF QURAN FOR TODAYS TIME.
WORD OF ALI( GENERIC NAME) BRAND NAME AS ALLAH.
WHAT PAST IMAM SAID WAS FOR THAT PERIOD.
ISMAILIS ARE TO FOLLOW THE IMAM OF THE TIME AND NOT PICK N CHOOSE PAST IMAM IN LINAGE NO 5 OR 22 OR XX.
is any scholar willing to research in new angles to study the person first
who misled the Ummah.
for zznoor: If 70% of prison population are Shariati then they being mainstream and in majority.then it is the best religion.
Study why they 600% more in ratio as anti social,unethical, anti community,and criminals.
A study by TISS, tata institute of Social science has reported
it relates
1. their sorrounding. habits poverty
and ETHICS n teaching put into them by by their mosque leader/madrasas.
such is sorry state when with pilfered Quran, 85% fake hadiths
100% wrong tafseers carried on my shabby mullahs n petty Imams.
THIS REAL documented data of year 2014 can be seen of a state where
almost 60 lacs Shariati reside.
if you wish to debate
a. see the reality of today.
b.see the status of the Deads who wrote n spoke the Quran meaning.
c. all dead hear say written matter has no locus standi in jury of wise people or any court of Law.
from these three genuine research n finding.
YOU WILL SHIVER BEFORE YOU POST ANYTHING RUBBISH.
All the named scholars and Aalim have got whole Quran in the first place wrong as none were rasikunfil ilm.(understand baatin)
so the word Imam and Imam E mubeen gave them no clue as same as the frst line of Quran.
When specifically mentions He speak in parables and Quran is Baatin as well.
All these writers just copy pasted from each other were out to make money in printing and sale of translated copies.
ALL ARE 1000% WRONG.
There is an Ayat from ALI saying there is punishment for who who wrong the words of Allah.
that punishment is not slow but rather swift in same life or max upto two generation.
I request zznoor to do research first on all these peoples names copy pasted.
one may find a shocking pattern for most of them.
ALI does what he mentions in Quran.
of all these translator:
1)How was the last 7 years of their life before death?
2) How was their Death caused by?
3).What is the status of their grave yard or burial spot today?
4) What was/is the status of their children or grandchildren.?
Find it out
It is very very important.
Even prophet shivered when he spell out the Ayats in early years and took 23 years of it.
for a person to write n copy from other writers can be max to max 10 days to month job.
A full study of their life after fake job till two generations is important.
research that ,then have the guts to do wholesale fake n false n incorrect
translation of the 90% quacks.
I have given the translation of the word 'Nur/Noor'.check with all above what is their translation.
they have most 95% of them at layman n Zahiri level copied from each other one to earn some money.
WHAT IMAM SAYS NOW AS FARMANS IS THE REFLECTION N ESSENCE OF QURAN FOR TODAYS TIME.
WORD OF ALI( GENERIC NAME) BRAND NAME AS ALLAH.
WHAT PAST IMAM SAID WAS FOR THAT PERIOD.
ISMAILIS ARE TO FOLLOW THE IMAM OF THE TIME AND NOT PICK N CHOOSE PAST IMAM IN LINAGE NO 5 OR 22 OR XX.
is any scholar willing to research in new angles to study the person first
who misled the Ummah.
for zznoor: If 70% of prison population are Shariati then they being mainstream and in majority.then it is the best religion.
Study why they 600% more in ratio as anti social,unethical, anti community,and criminals.
A study by TISS, tata institute of Social science has reported
it relates
1. their sorrounding. habits poverty
and ETHICS n teaching put into them by by their mosque leader/madrasas.
such is sorry state when with pilfered Quran, 85% fake hadiths
100% wrong tafseers carried on my shabby mullahs n petty Imams.
THIS REAL documented data of year 2014 can be seen of a state where
almost 60 lacs Shariati reside.
if you wish to debate
a. see the reality of today.
b.see the status of the Deads who wrote n spoke the Quran meaning.
c. all dead hear say written matter has no locus standi in jury of wise people or any court of Law.
from these three genuine research n finding.
YOU WILL SHIVER BEFORE YOU POST ANYTHING RUBBISH.
To Admin:Ya Ali Madad.
I request you as a moderator ,unless you are qualified enough to screen the translation of 100% wrong tafseer posted wholesale on this site.
There is as strategy in motion ( with your blessings).
to upload all material unrelated to Ismalism in good speed by a Shariati with the help of her mentor to post heavy copy paste in span of few minutes n hours.A working person cannot debate post so much from workplace.she is posting matters forwarded to her on real time basis.
A simple ploy is go to grave of any dead entity( his sayings) hawk 5 candles
and pull suckers to dig the grave along with her.
she is working with a team and our members have dig hard into dead tales
and data to keep up to the debates.
IF THERE IN NON ADMISSION OF RUBBISH IN THE FIRST PLACE THEN DEBATE DOES NOT FOLLOW AT ALL.
buddy,you are giving ample ample of space to persons who have wronged the words of Ali/Allah.
maybe out of innocence.A partner/aide in crime is punishable by law
if not then by ALI.
I request you as a moderator ,unless you are qualified enough to screen the translation of 100% wrong tafseer posted wholesale on this site.
There is as strategy in motion ( with your blessings).
to upload all material unrelated to Ismalism in good speed by a Shariati with the help of her mentor to post heavy copy paste in span of few minutes n hours.A working person cannot debate post so much from workplace.she is posting matters forwarded to her on real time basis.
A simple ploy is go to grave of any dead entity( his sayings) hawk 5 candles
and pull suckers to dig the grave along with her.
she is working with a team and our members have dig hard into dead tales
and data to keep up to the debates.
IF THERE IN NON ADMISSION OF RUBBISH IN THE FIRST PLACE THEN DEBATE DOES NOT FOLLOW AT ALL.
buddy,you are giving ample ample of space to persons who have wronged the words of Ali/Allah.
maybe out of innocence.A partner/aide in crime is punishable by law
if not then by ALI.
2-124 (You refuse to believe in and follow Muhammad chiefly because Prophethood was not retained with you and so he did not appear amongst you. Now, you surely do admit Abraham’s Prophethood, so) remember that his Lord tested Abraham with commands and ordeals (such as his being thrown into a fire, the destruction of the people of his kinsman Lot, and his being ordered to sacrifice his son Ishmael), and he fulfilled them thoroughly. He said: "Indeed I will make you an imam for all people." He (Abraham) pleaded: "(Will You appoint imams) also from my offspring?" He (his Lord) answered: "(I will appoint from among those who merit it. But) My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.
17-71 On the Day when We will call every human community with its Imam: whoever (has followed a Imam towards true faith and righteousness and accountability in the Hereafter) is given his Record (of his life) in his right hand – those will read their book with contentment and they will not be wronged by
21:73 And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;
ZZ for God's sake read the ayats before you start posting rubbish. How old are you, can you not see clearly ayats denoting that it is God who appoints Imams of the Muslims. Sure there are imams of the unbelievers do you think God also appoints them. This becoming tiring.
17-71 On the Day when We will call every human community with its Imam: whoever (has followed a Imam towards true faith and righteousness and accountability in the Hereafter) is given his Record (of his life) in his right hand – those will read their book with contentment and they will not be wronged by
21:73 And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command, and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms, and Us (alone) did they serve;
ZZ for God's sake read the ayats before you start posting rubbish. How old are you, can you not see clearly ayats denoting that it is God who appoints Imams of the Muslims. Sure there are imams of the unbelievers do you think God also appoints them. This becoming tiring.
We are not interested in translations/interpretations of Imame Mubeen as anything else but Imame Mubeen. Imam is Imam. You may translate it as a pot of flower in the East of China at the feet of zznoor but it does not change the reality that Imam is no pot of flower. Imam is Imam and our Imam is never going to be anything else than our Imam, "the Noor."
As of the numerous copy paste by zznoor, most of the readers here do not give her any importance, perhaps only Nuseri and a couple more allow her to feed on their postings and arguments, otherwise most seems to have rightly decided that she/he/they are/is write-off.
As our Imam once said, rotten fruits fall by themselves, there is no need to waste time on plucking them from the trees.
As of the numerous copy paste by zznoor, most of the readers here do not give her any importance, perhaps only Nuseri and a couple more allow her to feed on their postings and arguments, otherwise most seems to have rightly decided that she/he/they are/is write-off.
As our Imam once said, rotten fruits fall by themselves, there is no need to waste time on plucking them from the trees.
Who is denying that Allah appointed prophets as guides and some of them needed Wasi.fayaz006
ZZ for God's sake read the ayats before you start posting rubbish. How old are you, can you not see clearly ayats denoting that it is God who appoints Imams of the Muslims. Sure there are imams of the unbelievers do you think God also appoints them. This becoming tiring.
Prophet was appointed as a guide to Muslims of Arabia and was given a book ( Quran) showing how to live and worship. This version of Islam spread.
Now show me clear Aya from Quran that he also appointed Hz Ali and his progeny as leaders of a Muslim Ummah.
There are many who claim progeny of Ali and many followers claim their candidate (Hazir, Gaib or Hiding) is Imam.
I have no problem how you translate or understand Quran.
It is clear from Quran that
2 parts of Shahada
Salat (mentioned more than 100 times)
requiring Gusal, Wadu, Adhan, standing, bowing, sitting, Sajud, facing Kabba, going to Masjid, praying number of times
Fast in Ramadan
Zakat
Hajj
This all are in Quran
Prophet Muhammad SAW is Seal of a Prophets and according to Muslim belief there will be no prophets.
Hz Ali has quoted Prophet
Every innovation is Bida and every Bida is hell fire ( paraphrase)
zznoor i think you are blind, ayat clearly say Imams which would be interpreted as Leader and Guide. Tell you what, i dont have to prove to you any thing since you are trying to prove us wrong, quote us an ayat from the Quran where God commands a messenger to guide. A messenger's job was only to deliver the message and not to guide. You choose what to believe in from the Quran and have these hollow arguments. The ball is in your quote now.
By the way ZZNoor is she, not he!!! so, please remember this next time! but please don't ask me how I find out this? don't tell nobody but I drove all the way Boston!!!!As of the numerous copy paste by zznoor, most of the readers here do not give her any importance, perhaps only Nuseri and a couple more allow her to feed on their postings and arguments, otherwise most seems to have rightly decided that she/he/they are/is write-off.
That is true that some readers who are supping her cheap row material for her coping and pasting business!!! but be honest with you, Nuseri as you mention above is not from them, I have noticed that he is always opposing her and criticizing her in almost every post "LEKING VO BEGAIRAT AURAT ABHI TAK NAHI SUDHARI"
Ya Ali Madad.
I really appreciate the post of fayaz 006,why not 007(licence to kill the devil)
Keep it up ,I will back you up fully with the final salvo.
The tafseer done in early time when Quran came out was done out of fear
n inviting wrath by the translator.this copy paste is going on till today.
just look at all shit head quack turn around on one word.
the word Imam is guide( a person)
(for ismailis it is spiritual guider of the time we live in).
it may be ok for ignorant ot commonsense level.
when the the word Imam E Mubeen is equated al Quran in an Ayat.
the same supposed to be as per shitheads 'a Guide(person) e Mubeen'
become a register a record keeping book and not even as
registrar.
Such was the their fear,ignorance and copy cat strategy.
All this translators/tafseer quacks will ill intents would not have been spared by ALI.
I AM VERY SURE ABOUT THAT FORM MY PAST LIVES.
Why does not our institute,scholars study their life and progeny.
presentation of this report can be an Eye opener.
All this acts of blah blah of performing this n that come with rider
along side after the same Ayats.
All members can hereby take a serious note from the office of Attorney
General of ALI.
1. We do not recognize any Tafseer of Quran other than Farmans of Imams
2. We accept only the tafseer done of recognized Rasikunfil ilm
like Pirs/Dais.
3. We see Farman n accept it as Quran of today and not blindly accept the Ayat on it's face value.
4. We only acknowledge hadiths referred by Imams and Pirs.
As 85% of hadith are fakes in the first place.
5.WE FOLLOW THE MHI farmans an not the acts of past Imam,prophets or any such entity unwarranted.
With these five point REJECT ALL MATTER by anybody even verses or saying of Quran or any dead entity.
If rubbish is not admitted and there is no exercise needed of cleaning it.
We all can raise the bar of this forum with our rich Ismaili data.
ADMIN FOR YOU THIS COMES AS A SERIOUS MESSAGE FROM MY ONE N ONLY CLIENT TILL ETERNITY.
I really appreciate the post of fayaz 006,why not 007(licence to kill the devil)
Keep it up ,I will back you up fully with the final salvo.
The tafseer done in early time when Quran came out was done out of fear
n inviting wrath by the translator.this copy paste is going on till today.
just look at all shit head quack turn around on one word.
the word Imam is guide( a person)
(for ismailis it is spiritual guider of the time we live in).
it may be ok for ignorant ot commonsense level.
when the the word Imam E Mubeen is equated al Quran in an Ayat.
the same supposed to be as per shitheads 'a Guide(person) e Mubeen'
become a register a record keeping book and not even as
registrar.
Such was the their fear,ignorance and copy cat strategy.
All this translators/tafseer quacks will ill intents would not have been spared by ALI.
I AM VERY SURE ABOUT THAT FORM MY PAST LIVES.
Why does not our institute,scholars study their life and progeny.
presentation of this report can be an Eye opener.
All this acts of blah blah of performing this n that come with rider
along side after the same Ayats.
All members can hereby take a serious note from the office of Attorney
General of ALI.
1. We do not recognize any Tafseer of Quran other than Farmans of Imams
2. We accept only the tafseer done of recognized Rasikunfil ilm
like Pirs/Dais.
3. We see Farman n accept it as Quran of today and not blindly accept the Ayat on it's face value.
4. We only acknowledge hadiths referred by Imams and Pirs.
As 85% of hadith are fakes in the first place.
5.WE FOLLOW THE MHI farmans an not the acts of past Imam,prophets or any such entity unwarranted.
With these five point REJECT ALL MATTER by anybody even verses or saying of Quran or any dead entity.
If rubbish is not admitted and there is no exercise needed of cleaning it.
We all can raise the bar of this forum with our rich Ismaili data.
ADMIN FOR YOU THIS COMES AS A SERIOUS MESSAGE FROM MY ONE N ONLY CLIENT TILL ETERNITY.
There is no Aya in Quran which states clearly that HZ Ali's progeny will have franchise of Imamat.fayaz006 wrote:zznoor i think you are blind, ayat clearly say Imams which would be interpreted as Leader and Guide. Tell you what, i dont have to prove to you any thing since you are trying to prove us wrong, quote us an ayat from the Quran where God commands a messenger to guide. A messenger's job was only to deliver the message and not to guide. You choose what to believe in from the Quran and have these hollow arguments. The ball is in your quote now.
The Prophet (s) did not have the power to guide anyone – He was only a messenger
Allah says in the Quran:
“Indeed, (O Muhammad), you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. (Quran, Surah Qasas, Verse 56)”
The prophet’s words were a reminder for all mankind
And verily, those who disbelieve would almost make you slip with their eyes through hatred when they hear the Reminder (the Quran), and they say: “Verily, he (Muhammad SAW) is a madman!”
But it is nothing else than a Reminder to all the Alameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists). (Quran, Surah Al-Qalam:51-52)”
People -zznoor wrote:Whenever imam appears in Quran does not mean divinely appointed imam.What's you take on aayat 2:124??? Did allah[swt] make H.Ibrahim[as] as plain register according to your logic ???
Example
Imam= Road
The word “imam” translates to “road” in verse 15:79 of the Quran.
Transliteration :Faintaqamna minhum wa-innahuma labi- imamin mubeenin
Translation
Muhammad Asad: and so We inflicted Our retribution on them. And, behold, both these [sinful communities] lived by a highway, [to this day] plain to see
M. M. Pickthall: So we took vengeance on them; and lo! they both are on a high-road plain to see.
Shakir: So We inflicted retribution on them, and they are both, indeed, on an open road (still) pursued.
Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985): So We exacted retribution from them. They were both on an open highway, plain to see.
zznoor has created her own language/dialect of arabic - and she is the expert.
She knows what Allah was thinking when He revealed the Quran!
She will change the language when she needs to suit her arguement.
Keep in mind this is someone with serious psychological issues - she has left ismailism for what she thought were greener pastures - and now that the sunnis disregard her - she wants adulation and reinforcement that she has made the right choice - so she's copying pasting and making random changes.
ZZnoor - once again- go practice your islam and let us practice ours.
As i've pointed out to you before - if you're going to follow the QURAN - follow it completely - do what Surah Karifoon says -
"to you yours and to me mine"
Don't be like your ISIS brethern - and not follow the Quran at all - that does not a muslim make.
Shams
So show me an ayat of the quran that says - follow the hadiths....zznoor wrote:Is there Ismaili book of 15% Ahadith which are not FAKE?As 85% of hadith are fakes in the first place.
Answer will be no.
That will give license to say "this supports my VP" Shahih!
"this does not supports my VP" FAKE!
Since as a muslim - everything is based on the qurah.
Since when did hadiths become a part of the faith?
Don't tell me - oh it was the sunnah of the prophet etc.
Show me an AYAT which says - FOLLOW THE HADITH
and Hadith is arabic - so please the word in Arabic should be hadith.
Just like your 5x prayer etc - this is also a hollow self enforced injunction.
Btw - the quran says -
"To you yours - to me mine".
Or is that something you don't follow - because you yourself are like a prostitute changing your emotions based on the client that is paying you more?
Shams
Even claiming to be Muslim how ignorant we are!So show me an ayat of the quran that says - follow the hadiths....
We ask every thing to be listed in Quran
Prophet Muhammad was sent as an example
In this Quranic verse, Allah clearly tells mankind that Prophet Muhammad (s) was sent as a model for mankind to follow and the success in this life and the hereafter depends on following him.
Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad SAW) you have a good example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much. Quran (Surah Al-Ahzab, Verse 21)
In view of the context in which this verse occurs, the object of presenting the Holy Prophet’s conduct and way of life as a model was to teach a lesson to the people, who had been motivated by considerations of selfish interests and personal safety on the occasion of the Battle of the Trench. The Ayat contains an important principle for all Muslims, i.e. to follow the Messenger of Allah in all his words, deeds, etc.
Prophets exemplary behavior and saying are recorded by Sahabas, initially memorized and letter collected. It is called Hadith (Sing.) Ahadith (Plural)